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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Rolyn: Traitorous to the cause of democracy
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MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
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Posted
There is simply no way I can respond to the depths of the unmitigated idiocy that you show in your post here in Purgatory.
Your choice to vote Leave and UKIP shows that you are happy because you think it is appropriate to ‘stick it to the man’. You are by implication allowing racists, bigots and howling fundamentalists of have their own way. You are showing them that they have more support than they really do, which only goes to strengthen them. And that means that you deserve no respect, because you do it because you are making a thinking choice by so doing.
Bluntly, yes, you should feel guilty. You should be in sackcloth and ashes on a permanent basis for the rest of your life because of how you have screwed my generation over by your vote. You should be out there making lots of noise about how you were a Leave voter who did so because he was an idiot. You and people like you are significantly at fault for all the post-Brexit racist crime that exists in the UK, because you legitimised it with your vote. You made a choice to make a vote that supported bigotry and violence, and by not realising that, it strongly suggests you actually have some sympathy with their bigotry. Or at the very least, that you are not enough of a person to be willing to stand up against bigotry. Frankly, by your vote, you are demeaning all those people who have made sacrifices so people can vote in a free and fair democracy.
Voting a protest vote is something an adolescent does, it's a key reason why I think lowering the voting age to 16 is stupid idea. Evidently there are catastrophically stupid people in the grown-up population as well, example here: Rolyn.
Posts: 238 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
God. Damn.
See, I knew there was a reason rolyn put a bug up my ass.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
rolyn wasn't clear what they were protesting against, but I can only presume it was sanity and basic human decency.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Protest votes are stupid and shortsighted. Voting isn't a game. Don't vote for something unless you want it. If you genuinely wanted Brexit or you believed in Trump, fair enough, it's your vote and your right, but to play with your vote, and then be surprised and regretful or even guilty when you find you've got what you voted for is irresponsible and immature.
If you've done it three times, you probably don't see anything wrong with it.
(Quote from Rolyn) "Me going all guilt ridden isn't going to stop post-brexit hate crimes, what might stop it is people like Farage and Bojo getting up and emphatically denouncing it."
What might stop it is the perpetrators deciding to stop it. There are people who (as I said on another thread) need to externalize their demons and some of them need to exorcise those demons through physical violence. Neither Farage nor Johnson will be able to stop them from doing so. Brexit is just an excuse: if that had never been on the agenda the same urge would just express itself in some other way, probably beating up different sections of the population.
The protest votes contributed in encouraging this upsurge. Trump was visibly encouraged by the UK's Brexit, and that's led to encouraging other far right leaders elsewhere in Europe, with the result that the world is now a notably more unstable and dangerous place than it was at the start of this year.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
There has been a UK campaign to include an option on ballot boxes of None of the above to enable voters to register a protest vote against the current electoral system without voting for the radical option.
There's always voting Green or LibDem or spoiling a ballot paper by scrawling None of them across it. At least the LibDem or Green policies are less divisive than UKIP's.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I'm sure that both the LibDems and the Greens would want people to vote for their candidates because they believed in their policies (or, at least, found them preferable to the policies of other parties). I don't think either of them would really want to be seen as a protest vote. Even Screaming Lord Sutch put together some policies for people to vote for, rather than standing to allow people to vote against everyone else.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I would much rather have a LibDem or Green MP than the current establishment Tory. And usually vote for either of those parties. But it is effectively a protest vote in this constituency which would vote a donkey in with a blue rosette. It has returned a couple of candidates with increased majorities after scandals (expenses for one and sex scandals - lots of mistresses at once - for another)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I would much rather have a LibDem or Green MP than the current establishment Tory. And usually vote for either of those parties. But it is effectively a protest vote in this constituency which would vote a donkey in with a blue rosette. It has returned a couple of candidates with increased majorities after scandals (expenses for one and sex scandals - lots of mistresses at once - for another)
I love - no wait, not love, the other thing - how a tory MP having one mistress is so passé that for it to be a scandal they have to have more than one at a time.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Goldfish Stew
Shipmate
# 5512
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Posted
I cast a "protest vote" in the first election I was eligible to vote for - for the McGillicuddy Serious Party. I was in a safe seat where the incumbent (whom I did not support) was always going to win with the biggest majority in parliament, and only bothered voting because there was a referendum at the same time on introducing proportional representation. The introduction of that system really meant that was the last time the concerns of wasting a vote made any sort of sense.
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Posts: 2405 | From: Aotearoa/New Zealand | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
If I didn't feel there was anyone I could vote for I wouldn't vote at all. I'd rather that than vote for a party I didn't particularly like whose aims I wasn't in sympathy with just to make a point. Nobody knows you've made a protest vote, anyway, unless you make a point of plastering your decision all over the internet. A quiet protest vote is indistinguishable from a sincerely meant vote.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
We trialled electronic voting here a few elections back. The most frustrating thing about it was that we couldn't abstain or spoil a paper or whatever. The only option was to vote for one of the candidates.
It was one of those elections where you get four ballot papers and I was voting in the general election, but there were not enough candidates I wanted to vote for in the local, district and county council elections. The whole thing was part of the electronic vote and I may have given up and not voted for anyone because it wasn't possible to be picky or scrawl none of the above across the ballot paper.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
A protest vote is saying to the current government -- you need to up your game.
I would never cast a vote that might put someone like farage or his party in power. If I was an American voter last week I would never have risked a vote that might put trump in power.
If history ends up saying the Brexit win caused the US to vote in a dictator. Which then went on to set in motion a domino right wing slide across Europe, then quite frankly it is wonky history that is the fucking ass.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Nope. It's you. You treating democracy like it's a joke. For those - like my Polish neighbour - who's now threatened with deportation (despite the fact she's a secondary school English teacher, ffs), I'm going to send you a hearty Fuck You Very Much.
You utter cockwomble.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Brexit is going to fuck things up enough all on its own, without any knock on effects it might have in encouraging fascists in the US or France (or Russia, for that matter).
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
A protest vote is saying to the current government -- you need to up your game.
I would never cast a vote that might put someone like farage or his party in power.
No, you just cast a vote that puts Theresa May in power, and sends a message that the UK voters like the policies of people like Farage and therefore to stay in power she needs to ape those policies. Thanks to the "protest votes" our nation has lurched to the right. Maybe you want to talk to the family of Arkadiusz Jóźwik and tell them how your vote hasn't given power to the likes of Farage, people who feel empowered to murder someone just because they aren't British.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
A protest vote is saying to the current government -- you need to up your game.
I would never cast a vote that might put someone like farage or his party in power. If I was an American voter last week I would never have risked a vote that might put trump in power.
Are you even listening to yourself? Farage and his party are basically in power now. Mrs May has taken the government to an extreme the likes of which Farage could only dream of. You chose to stomp all over democracy to give us the most racist, right-wing government this country has seen in decades. And if you try and get a cop out and say the polls told you Remain would win, you knew the polling was close. Incredibly close. So you are completely and utterly to blame for the current government, because you deliberately chose to act like... actually, I'm struggling to come up with any similies that are good enough and aren't insulting to who or what I am comparing you to.
Posts: 238 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
A protest vote is turning up at the polling station and scrawling None of the above across your ballot paper. If enough of us do it, and None of the above starts outvoting the candidates, that's a protest and maybe the Government would take note. As a last resort, if there is no-one to vote for.
Voting for UKIP and Farage has given him and his policies credibility, allowing racism and xenophobia a legitimised entry into politics in this country.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Protest votes are stupid and shortsighted. Voting isn't a game. Don't vote for something unless you want it.
Yes indeed. This was also my advice to those members of the parliamentary Labour party who nominated Mr. Corbyn because they thought a leftie ought to be on the ballot. If you didn't think he was an acceptable candidate, you shouldn't have nominated him.
I know several people who voted for Jill Stein because they felt safe doing so (Clinton was always going to win their states significantly) and wanted to protest against her corporate ties. They'd have all voted Bernie if he was the candidate.
They would happily tell me that Jill Stein wasn't a perfect candidate either, but they wanted to say "environmental issues are important, pay attention to this".
And that's fine. It's a protest vote, but also not a lie - you can't encode your entire political opinion in one vote, you just get to make one choice. But how important are the other messages you're sending?
In the case of Jill Stein, she has some really stupid opinions, and anyone seriously proposing her for elected office needs their heads examining. But that's not going to happen, so there's no downside to supporting her stupid opinions along with her reasonable ones.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
Farage and his party are basically in power now.
Well, no. 'His party' has 1 Member of Parliament, who dislikes Farage.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
A protest vote is saying to the current government -- you need to up your game.
Oh, come on rolyn, how does the government or indeed anybody else know that it's a protest vote? It's anonymous. They have no way of telling that you personally cast a vote you didn't mean seriously, unless you write in and tell them and also plaster it all over the internet with a note that says "I, Rolyn, have made a protest vote and voted for a party I didn't support and don't particularly want to see in power as a way of saying Up Yours."
quote:
If history ends up saying the Brexit win caused the US to vote in a dictator. Which then went on to set in motion a domino right wing slide across Europe, then quite frankly it is wonky history that is the fucking ass.
No, it's wonky thinking that considers "protest votes" are a sensible way of getting a point across that's to blame, not history.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Doc Tor, why is your Polish neighbour threatened with deportation?
(Serious question)
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
If history ends up saying the Brexit win caused the US to vote in a dictator. Which then went on to set in motion a domino right wing slide across Europe, then quite frankly it is wonky history that is the fucking ass.
If gravity ends up saying that stepping out of a window means a person will hit the ground with fatal force, then quite frankly it is wonky gravity that is the ass. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
A protest vote is saying to the current government -- you need to up your game.
What utter bollocks! How can voting for a permanent change in a one off referendum be interpreted as telling the government to up their game?
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Never, ever vote for someone you don't want to win. It's not just mad, it's stupid.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I have to admit a small amount of respect for rolyn's choice to come clean. Coming on to a (mostly) British forum and admitting you protest- voted in favor of Brexit is like stuffing every pocket with bacon and strolling into a doberman kennel.
[ 13. November 2016, 17:05: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Never, ever vote for someone you don't want to win. It's not just mad, it's stupid.
Stupid and mad are far to kind words.
"I'm going to make a useless, probably self-harming, statement that no one will hear, remember or care about". Woo hoo democracy
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Seem to rember a lot of folks voting Green back in the 80's and 90s who didn't want to have their car took away or be legislated into only having one kid.
If you want to get mad about goof voters like me and the outcome of June 23rd/November 8th then blame those stupid bloody pollsters. The whole effin lot of 'em would be better sat at home doing nowt as formulating wrong information .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
pollsters. really. You are an idiot. Liars and frauds who campaigned for a result they didn't want, the fools who supported those politicians (who, by the way,have no interest in helping them), xenophobes and racists who would fuck their own country to prevent non-existent ills and moronic self-fellating arseholes who lob a "protest" vote because they are too imbecilic and lazy to do anything other than occasionally vote. Those are the people to blame.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
I cast a "protest vote" in the first election I was eligible to vote for - for the McGillicuddy Serious Party.
I was tempted, but they didn't have a candidate standing in my electorate. They made elections fun.
Now we have clowns standing that are no fun at all.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Doc Tor, why is your Polish neighbour threatened with deportation?
(Serious question)
M.
Serious answer? Because she's Polish.
She's here as an EU citizen: you know, that big thing we're leaving in just over 2 years time, when all rights of residency - just like those 1.2 million Britons living elsewhere in the EU - end.
You may not know of the rules for foreign nationals living in the UK, but there's a new earnings threshold of £30,000 (from April). If a non-EU national earns less than that, they don't even get to apply for a visa.
Now, after we leave the EU, those rules may change. But they may change to be more liberal, or more draconian. She doesn't know. Neither, apparently, does the government, which has refused point blank to say whether EU nationals currently in the UK can stay or not.
So, yes. She has the threat of deportation hanging over her. Not tomorrow, not next year. But is she going to apply for a promotion? Is she going to do her CPD? Is she going to plan for living in the UK long term? No. Of course she's not.
And it's not just her. It's 96% of EU nationals employed in the agricultural sector. 94% of EU nationals in the hospitality industry. FFS, it's 60% of them in the financial sector. All of them are threatened with deportation.
Who knows, there might even be some living in Surrey...
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Even if when Theresa May announces her plans when she puts in the article 50 declaration she says that EU nationals currently living in the UK can remain without complying with any future immigration requirements, that Polish doctor (and millions of others) will have been put through the best part of a year living with the uncertainty of what their future will be. Not to mention all the additional abuse from morons who think that 52% of the population agree with their xenophobia idiocy.
All because some people who didn't want Brexit decided to vote "Leave" to tell the government "we don't want to leave, but we want to say we're not happy with the system".
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Seem to rember a lot of folks voting Green back in the 80's and 90s who didn't want to have their car took away or be legislated into only having one kid.
If you want to get mad about goof voters like me and the outcome of June 23rd/November 8th then blame those stupid bloody pollsters. The whole effin lot of 'em would be better sat at home doing nowt as formulating wrong information .
The polls were within 5 points of the result. When things are that close you don't take fucking chances. Also, given the total fuckup at the 2015 general election, why were you putting any faith in the polling in the first place?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The polls were within 5 points of the result, with uncertainties of 3-4 points. Basically, the polls got it right - damn close with a narrow margin of victory.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
rolyn said, after the documents were released related to the Hillsborough disaster in 2012, that, despite all evidence to the contrary, that Liverpool fans were partly to blame. Angloid picked him up on that and I considered calling him to Hell myself, but thought, the battle's almost won, why kick off with some gobshite truth-denier now.
Then I noticed their stance on the EU referendum and denial of a link between the vote and the subsequent rise in hate crimes.
I'm trying to avoid calling political opponents idiots, but still, even clever people can have idiotic self-delusional stances.
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Thank you Doc Tor. The last I heard, no immigrants already legally here were threatened with deportation when we leave the EU. I must have missed something, which is altogether possible.
By referring to a threat of deportation hanging over her head, you made it sound imminent. It was a genuine question.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
If we're looking for breathtaking hypocrisy on Brexit, we need look no further than the Scottish National Party. It turns out that several SNP members of the Scottish Parliament voted Leave and others have admitted to only voting Remain reluctantly.
I'm absolutely sure that there are many who voted Leave as a protest vote, the more worrying thing is that there are some elected politicians who are now talking loudly about the benefits of Scotland in the EU who actually voted against it (presumably having decided at the time that it was the best thing for their scottish constituents).
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arse
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If we're looking for breathtaking hypocrisy on Brexit, we need look no further than the Scottish National Party. It turns out that several SNP members of the Scottish Parliament voted Leave and others have admitted to only voting Remain reluctantly.
I'm absolutely sure that there are many who voted Leave as a protest vote, the more worrying thing is that there are some elected politicians who are now talking loudly about the benefits of Scotland in the EU who actually voted against it (presumably having decided at the time that it was the best thing for their scottish constituents).
Ah, but to misquote Kipling Scexiteers and Brexiteers are sisters under the skin... Sadly, no one ever said they had to be coherent.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
By referring to a threat of deportation hanging over her head, you made it sound imminent. It was a genuine question.
To be honest I'd almost rather it was imminent rather than 2 years of uncertainty. Better to get it over and done with rather than carry on wondering whether to keep investing in life in the UK.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
mr cheesy--
I heard something that Scotland might go back into the EU on its own. Might that be why some Scots voted Brexit? So they could go back in as their own country?
(puzzling from across the pond.)
Thx.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
mr cheesy--
I heard something that Scotland might go back into the EU on its own. Might that be why some Scots voted Brexit? So they could go back in as their own country?
(puzzling from across the pond.)
Thx.
It was posited by some of the more extreme Scexiteers as a wrecking tactic for the union - that just enough people needed to vote leave for Brexit to get over the line UK wide, then they could turn round and say Scotland's being dragged out against its will and the momentum for another go at independence would be increased (clearly this wouldn't work if too many people did it though).
If anyone has indeed voted that way for that end, then even in the pantheon of low political manoeuvring they deserve to be excoriated.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
mr cheesy--
I heard something that Scotland might go back into the EU on its own. Might that be why some Scots voted Brexit? So they could go back in as their own country?
(puzzling from across the pond.)
Thx.
It was suggested that a UK vote for Brexit with a strong vote in Scotland to Remain would provide an impetus towards a second Scottish Independence referendum - as, indeed, has happened.
It would not, under that scenario, make sense to campaign/vote Brexit in Scotland to force an Independence referendum.
What mr cheesy has basically highlighted is that some individual SNP members (including MSPs) personally held views on EU membership different from the party leadership. The same, of course, could be said for members and MPs (councillors, members of other parliaments, local party leadership etc) of practically every UK political party since (with the exception of UKIP) the EU has never been the defining policy of any party.
No political party is homogenous, they all represent a spread of views on a range of subjects. On some policies there would be a very narrow spread of opinion, in particular where that defines the main objective of the party (within the SNP there would be almost universal support for Scottish independence, within the Greens almost universal support for reducing CO2 emissions etc). On other policies, especially those not central to the main objectives of the party, there will be considerable variation - in the SNP the fairly left-wing policies we currently see are relatively new, traditionally the party membership has had a wide spread of political opinions on issues such as welfare, education, health, defense, immigration, the economy and Europe - a broad party centred around one main policy, Scottish independence from Westminster. In government, the SNP has had to develop a narrower political spread to function, and that has been generally to the left. Although EU membership was something identified by the Scottish Government as desirable as part of an Independence deal (and, hence, was in the white paper produced prior to the 2014 referendum), there isn't unanimity on that issue within the SNP with a large minority favouring an independent Scotland outwith the EU.
This, of course, isn't news to anyone with some knowledge of Scottish politics. And, I would add, I would think it more hypocritical for MSPs in an individual, personal vote (ie: when they are not representing anyone else) to vote against their personal beliefs just because Nicola Sturgeon has been campaigning for Remain. You might as well call Tory MPs hypocrites if they voted Leave while Cameron campaigned for Remain.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Thank you Doc Tor. The last I heard, no immigrants already legally here were threatened with deportation when we leave the EU. I must have missed something, which is altogether possible.
What many people have been asking for (without any response) since the end of June has been a statement from the government regarding the status of people currently legally living in the UK after we leave the EU. What we have been calling for is that the just and right thing to do would be to say that any changes in immigration and residence policy resulting from leaving the EU would not be backdated and applied to people who had legally settled in the UK prior to leaving the EU (or, at least prior to June 23).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
This, of course, isn't news to anyone with some knowledge of Scottish politics. And, I would add, I would think it more hypocritical for MSPs in an individual, personal vote (ie: when they are not representing anyone else) to vote against their personal beliefs just because Nicola Sturgeon has been campaigning for Remain. You might as well call Tory MPs hypocrites if they voted Leave while Cameron campaigned for Remain.
No, humbug. The Tories were riven down the middle on the EU referendum. Labour was more united but still had a vocal minority advocating Leave.
Importantly, neither party is now claiming the high ground as being always against Brexit, even as MPs from both parties speak out for both positions.
In contrast, the SNP has consistently been bashing the English since June as being the reason that Scotland is being dragged out of the EU unwillingly.
SNP MPs have never, to my knowledge, spoken out for Leave and I doubt any SNP MSP has either. And yet they're now using the political expediancy of having a majority Remain vote north-of-the-border to call for all kinds of things for Scotland.
Even though a significant minority of senior SNP politicans that we know of voted Leave - and presumably it is likely a proportion of SNP supporters did as well.
That's bollocks. Now you can continue in your mindset that says you're hard-done-by and that the nasty English are persecuting the plucky Scots and that only the SNP are standing up for the true Remainers if you like.
But we now know the truth.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
SNP MPs have never, to my knowledge, spoken out for Leave and I doubt any SNP MSP has either.
Well, there was a well publicised SNP group campaigning for a Leave vote (my computer here seems to be objecting to opening any of the news pages Google produced to allow me to see whether any MPs or MSPs were in that group). The main issues being fisheries, and to a lesser extent whether Scotland being in the EU actually is independence.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
As I understand it, all 54 of the SNP MPs voted Remain (although Mhairi Black is on record as saying there was an element of holding her nose involved, see here). That article quotes Jim Sillars (former Govan MP and SNP grandee), who was always the voice of SNP opposition to Remain, as stating that there were around 5 or 6 MSPs who voted Leave. Polling before and after the vote suggested that close to 25% of SNP membership were in favour of Leave (similar to the number of Labour supporters voting for Leave, according to polls post-referendum).
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Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Thank you Doc Tor. The last I heard, no immigrants already legally here were threatened with deportation when we leave the EU. I must have missed something, which is altogether possible.
What many people have been asking for (without any response) since the end of June has been a statement from the government regarding the status of people currently legally living in the UK after we leave the EU. What we have been calling for is that the just and right thing to do would be to say that any changes in immigration and residence policy resulting from leaving the EU would not be backdated and applied to people who had legally settled in the UK prior to leaving the EU (or, at least prior to June 23).
The government daren't do that: it would be a betrayal of the leave campaign and Theresa May would be toast.
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
There was Leave group in Aberdeen, which was a single-issue pressure group attached to the fishing industry, and they were cross-party. They had a stall outside Marks & Spencer. (I'm not sure if being outside Markies = well publicised or not.)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Although it's all rather tangential. I think it can be safely assumed that members of a political party, especially senior members and MPs/MSPs, would vote according to their assessment of the issues. It would be very unlikely that they would vote as a protest against the political system.
There were valid arguments against remaining in the EU - eg: sovereignty of Parliament, over beaurocratic EU government, protection of fishing industries, restrictions on unilateral trade arrangements. I personally found them unconvincing, but they were valid. I'm not going to say that someone convinced of those arguments did anything wrong by voting accordingly. I'd even grudgingly admit that if someone is a racist xenophobe then they have every right to vote accordingly, even though I find those arguments deeply abhorent.
The issue here is the ill-conceived idiocy of casting a "protest vote".
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Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
What many people have been asking for (without any response) since the end of June has been a statement from the government regarding the status of people currently legally living in the UK after we leave the EU. What we have been calling for is that the just and right thing to do would be to say that any changes in immigration and residence policy resulting from leaving the EU would not be backdated and applied to people who had legally settled in the UK prior to leaving the EU (or, at least prior to June 23).
The government daren't do that: it would be a betrayal of the leave campaign and Theresa May would be toast.
IMO, when the Leave campaign call for something that is immoral then betrayal of that aspect of their campaign is the right thing to do. And, if Mrs May is afraid to face up to racism and xenophobia, is unwilling to treat people who are legally living in this country with decency and common humanity, then being toast is too good for her.
The government (post-Brexit) can put up all sorts of immigration restrictions to meet some bonkers arbitrary net migration goal without abusing the human rights of people who have already legally settled in this country.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
What many people have been asking for (without any response) since the end of June has been a statement from the government regarding the status of people currently legally living in the UK after we leave the EU. What we have been calling for is that the just and right thing to do would be to say that any changes in immigration and residence policy resulting from leaving the EU would not be backdated and applied to people who had legally settled in the UK prior to leaving the EU (or, at least prior to June 23).
The government daren't do that: it would be a betrayal of the leave campaign and Theresa May would be toast.
IMO, when the Leave campaign call for something that is immoral then betrayal of that aspect of their campaign is the right thing to do. And, if Mrs May is afraid to face up to racism and xenophobia, is unwilling to treat people who are legally living in this country with decency and common humanity, then being toast is too good for her.
The government (post-Brexit) can put up all sorts of immigration restrictions to meet some bonkers arbitrary net migration goal without abusing the human rights of people who have already legally settled in this country.
They can put up plenty of restrictions but I really doubt it will satisfy the Brexiteers, most of whom regard human rights as a load of lefty liberal nonsense.
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