Thread: Martinsplaining Board: Hell / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
So Martin turns up on p2 of the Annunciation thread to tell us this:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I find dealing with fellow Christians who have to believe things that I can't, that I'm invincibly ignorant of, which is most, discouraging. How we work together despite these unbridgeable gulfs I don't know.
Let me give you a clue. Stop patronising everbody else and expecting them to do the legwork to understand your deliberately unintelligible prose/think up (as you imagine it) to your level.
If you were as smart as you think you are, you’d find it within yourself to think down (as you see it) to our level.
In the same post you opine that you need quote:
the freedom of Hell
Maybe you do. Hell is here to be used. If you can’t express yourself in terms acceptable for Purgatorial discourse, stay away.
In the meantime, as evidence of your stupidity and unwillingness to put any effort into achieving the lofty aspiration you alluded to above:
In the same post you attack Ricardus by misattributing views to him that were expressed by others.
Ricardus tried to clarify, to no avail, tried again, as did The Scrumpmeister, me, Ricardus (again), and me (again).
After six posts trying to clarify, your only response was to continue to fail to understand and further stir the pot by misquoting another poster’s unhelpful comments so as to make them even more inflammatory than they already were. No apology, no acceptance of your original, disruptive, deliberate (?) misunderstanding and shit-stirring.
Not content with that, you stir the pot still further by heading off into a tangent about double predestination.
Lamb Chopped intervenes and you admit that in your response to her you were toying with her: this strikes me as a prima facie admission of trolling and it's the straw that broke the camel's back for me.
You then equate her belief in a miraculous event with a fairie [sic] story, accuse me of having introduced magic when I had done nothing of the kind, accuse Lamb Chopped in the same post of believing in magic, refuse to define your terms, and admit your accusation was pejorative.
Once again I would like to remind you that the rest of us are not here for your entertainment, to be toyed with or insulted as you see fit, left to struggle through your more enigmatic posts and be rewarded only with gross misrepresentation or more enigma when we bother to reply.
If you’re serious about wanting to deal with fellow Christians, start by showing them some respect and consideration and stop behaving like such a sociopath.
Clue: the right response to this is not a public exercise in self-pity, the right response is to stop behaving like that. I know you can do better.
[ 15. November 2017, 15:58: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Clue: the right response to this is not a public exercise in self-pity, the right response is to stop behaving like that.
My money's on the public exercise in self-pity, with a side order of ostentatious sackcloth-and-ashes-donning.
Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Clue: the right response to this is not a public exercise in self-pity, the right response is to stop behaving like that.
My money's on the public exercise in self-pity, with a side order of ostentatious sackcloth-and-ashes-donning.
And then, as you were. Again.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
I've heard that within every fake mystic, there is a genuine one struggling to get out. Maybe, maybe not. But there isn't time to wait.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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I'll get me coat.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
His posts would be so much simpler if Martin simply wrote in a way that others can understand.
I'm still totally confused about what he is on about in that thread. He just seems to be lobbing grenades at other people, suggesting that they're somehow intellectually inferior for some reason I don't quite understand and then sniping when nobody gets the point of his cryptic posts.
I think his main point is that others are believing in fairy stories and magic.
OK, not particularly original, but possibly an opinion worth offering.
But I don't get the needling of LC and Eutychus. What gives Martin?
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'll get me coat.
Really - that's it?
You're just going to fuck off instead of explaining what just happened?
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'll get me coat.
No, flouncing doesn't cut it either if you had any worthwhile aspirations lurking in the first quote in my OP.
You kept offering to take it to Hell. Here we are. Bring it on.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
:
Well, one does need to ask oneself— is The Return of Martin to Hell V1 really going to make the corn pop?
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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Bugger. It's the dissection of the Ricardus thing. I suppose I should follow all Eutychus' most-flattering-in-terms-of-attention links.
I accept all and each criticism. Again. Thank you, especially Eutychus. But not tonight.
As for my 63 year old 3rd class honours feral intelligence, wee-wee end of the Mensa pool, I'm aware of the lack of an emotional dimension to that. Believe it or not I rate virtually everybody here as smarter, better educated - I've only just properly discovered Tillich - and more experienced than myself, intellectually and emotionally, which is why I get so ... frustrated. Nice, clever people resorting to ... magic. Belief in divine intervention in our lives and consciousness.
Nonetheless I expect too much of others and not enough of myself. Sorry.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60, emphasis mine:
Thank you, especially Eutychus. But not tonight.
You just can't do a straight apology and change your behaviour, can you? You don't get to prevaricate when you offered to take it to Hell yourself in the first place.
I'm sick of being manipulated by you and I'm fed up with watching you try it on with other people.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
OK mate. Believe it or not I was too depressed to follow your links.
I apologize and wish to change. As in other areas of life I find that difficult.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
OK mate. Believe it or not I was too depressed to follow your links.
Still doesn't cut it.
If you had bothered to read the explanations people supplied in the first place, you would have realised sooner the extent to which you misrepresented Ricardus, and continued to do so.
And in this instance, in view of your multiple provocations on the thread and invitations to all and sundry to take it to Hell, being "too depressed" is just code for "sulking".
quote:
I apologize
That doesn't cut it either. For a start, you've dodged any response to the charge of toying with others for sport. Just what are you apologising for?
quote:
and wish to change
And that doesn't cut it either.
I could show you a whole prison full of inmates "wishing" to change. Few of them actually do.
It's not as though you weren't warned on the thread - which is a case study in recidivism on your part. My patience has run out (I can't speak for that of the H&As in this respect).
To quote John Wimber, "repentance means you don't get to do that again. Ever".
quote:
As in other areas of life I find that difficult.
We all find stuff difficult. That's no excuse for a lack of basic respect for other Shipmates.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
Broke the "warning" link. It should have been to this post.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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A little suggestion, Martin.
A bit like 'posting while drunk', 'posting while depressed' does have its place, but we still have standards to uphold for the rest of the community, and in your more lucid moments, you most likely agree with that.
So if you're down with the Black Dog, there's a thread specifically for you in AS. Crapping over the rest of the boards is going to get you, especially you, some serious Adminly attention.
Personally speaking, I don't want to lose your presence here. But there's only so far you can push it.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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I am sorry for the lack of respect to Shipmates.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Bugger. It's the dissection of the Ricardus thing. I suppose I should follow all Eutychus' most-flattering-in-terms-of-attention links.
I accept all and each criticism. Again. Thank you, especially Eutychus. But not tonight.
As for my 63 year old 3rd class honours feral intelligence, wee-wee end of the Mensa pool, I'm aware of the lack of an emotional dimension to that. Believe it or not I rate virtually everybody here as smarter, better educated - I've only just properly discovered Tillich - and more experienced than myself, intellectually and emotionally, which is why I get so ... frustrated. Nice, clever people resorting to ... magic. Belief in divine intervention in our lives and consciousness..
There's a name for feigning modesty whilst giving someone a backhanded compliment and simultaneously ridiculing their most cherished beliefs (and implicitly, then, their intelligence). It's called passive-aggressive. Actually, I call it something else entirely but that's too salty of language for a nice church lady like me, even in the nether regions, although perhaps some less prissy shipmate will oblige.
Whatever you want to call it, polite or rude, it certainly ain't an apology.
It's always hard to read your affect, even here. So sure, I'll be Charlie Brown to your Lucy if you want to give it another shot.
[ 15. November 2017, 19:58: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
My money's on the public exercise in self-pity, with a side order of ostentatious sackcloth-and-ashes-donning.
Called it.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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Just scroll past. Lost cause.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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*non-hellish aside* hat tip to Eutychus for the thread title, and what will now no doubt become part of the Ship's own special jargon.
Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
OK mate. Believe it or not I was too depressed to follow your links.
I apologize and wish to change. As in other areas of life I find that difficult.
Too depressed to follow links, but sufficiently with it for this:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm replying to LC in similar vein Ohher. And postmodern as I belatedly am I agree with you. I'm toying with her too of course, because she actually doesn't believe that tomorrow has already happened, but she does believe that her partner at least was miraculously preserved which is on the same spectrum of identifying with Clive Staples' fairie story. Luke knew Mary of course.
First, I don't know what you're talking about. I've been away from the boards for some time. I remember Lamb Chopped from before, and have a great deal of respect for her. Her partner's miraculous preservation is news to me, and I'll rely on LC's own statements about her beliefs before I'll rely on an interpretation of those by someone professing to "toy" with her.
Second, if you're too depressed to follow links, how is it you have no problem farting about with C.S. Lewis's name and book title? Why not just give us a straightforward "C. S. Lewis?" You're not too depressed to try and look clever, but you're too depressed to click on a link. Riiight.
As for wanting to change, I've lurked enough during my voluntary shore leave to have heard that before. Several times.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Well, one does need to ask oneself— is The Return of Martin to Hell V1 really going to make the corn pop?
Is there any corn left?
Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on
:
I just had a deja vu (been here before) experience and had to check the OP date as I thought it might be someone resuscitating an older thread. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
I'm so full of shit ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
and Gilmour is live from Pompeii. It's probably a recording. And I'm PWD, drunk, not depressed. But the opening is the conclusion I came to when walking round Victoria Park in the dark. Little aliens like from Half Life with blue ellipses glowing just above the ground. A Spanish white would you believe and bourbon to follow. The predictive text is excellent for when you're pissed.
I have no right. No right to expect. Anything of anyone here. That's what I realised. Along with the opening realisation. Damn he's good. Nothing touches Coming Back to Life.
Around 9 last night two ... Comfortably Numb! ... colleagues notified me of a guy having a breakdown in the toilet. So I manfully strode in. He scared the living shit out of me. So I leaned back, hands in pockets, made the right noises. We ended up hugging ... in the dunny ... he was a decent human being in a fucking shit storm of emotion looking for an explanation without hope. Poor guy. Poor, poor guy.
I was looking in the mirror, in the face of Christ and had no expectations.
Lesson l... no chance!
Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm so full of shit
That was plenty, Martin; you could've stopped there. And not news, by the way. No need to wallow. Most of us are full of shit here; why should you be different, and so why bring it up?
Meanwhile, if you're trying for communication, this . . .
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
. . . and Gilmour is live from Pompeii. It's probably a recording. And I'm PWD, drunk, not depressed. But the opening is the conclusion I came to when walking round Victoria Park in the dark. Little aliens like from Half Life with blue ellipses glowing just above the ground. A Spanish white would you believe and bourbon to follow. The predictive text is excellent for when you're pissed.
. . . could be improved upon. Or perhaps just omitted. Or here's another idea: try not posting while smashed, why don't you?
As for this:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I have no right. No right to expect. Anything of anyone here. That's what I realised. Along with the opening realisation. Damn he's good. Nothing touches Coming Back to Life.
Around 9 last night two ... Comfortably Numb! ... colleagues notified me of a guy having a breakdown in the toilet. So I manfully strode in. He scared the living shit out of me. So I leaned back, hands in pockets, made the right noises. We ended up hugging ... in the dunny ... he was a decent human being in a fucking shit storm of emotion looking for an explanation without hope. Poor guy. Poor, poor guy.
I was looking in the mirror, in the face of Christ and had no expectations.
Lesson l... no chance!
Perhaps you could spare us your Adventures in Salvation in the Local Piss-Pit, whether successful or un-; how are they relevant to the fact that you continue to inSIST on posting cryptically here despite knowing full well it drives most of us batty, and that you continue to apologize for this behavior while never advancing any plans to alter it?
We have many posters here who manage to make their meanings plain, sometimes even elegantly. Try studying their posts. Clarity comes first, though. All the elegance in the fucking world is fucking useless if we can't figure out what the fuck you're being so fucking eloquent about.
I'm assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that your first language is English. Its written form, just like its spoken one, exists primarily as a means of communication. Perhaps you could try employing it for that purpose as opposed to using it to demonstrate the inner writhings of your profoundly sensitive, ineluctably deep, infinitely complex and sensitive poetic fucking soul.
Still need an outlet For the verbal flights of diarrhea, er, fancy? Take a fucking creative writing class and trot your stream-of-consciousness out for your classmates.
And for God's sake, take to heart the feedback you get from them.
Posted by RooK (# 1852) on
:
Full of shit doesn't even begin to describe it. It's the faecal neutronium remnant of a collapsed shit-star from its shit-nova.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I have no right. No right to expect. Anything of anyone here.
The problem isn't what you have or don't have a right to expect of others.
The problem is your lack of respect for others.
A lack of respect which continues in the form of subjecting us to your maudlin ramblings.
You can have interesting things to say. But as you can see from other responses on this thread, your schtick is getting really old and past its sell-by date. We're fed up with it. Put it to bed.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
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Can’t quite see that ‘maudlin ramblings' show a lack of respect for anyone.
Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on
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The Hosts are supposed to read every word of every post. (I suppose that is still the case anyway.) So, ramblings can become annoying.
I sometimes found myself - err "speed reading" - though some posters, knowing that they were just taking a large metaphoric crap on the board. If whatever the post was raised an indignant "AAWK" down the line I went back and read more carefully.
Self righteous scoldings can also become annoying.
I suppose it is a matter of perspective.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
The maudlin ramblings are annoying when they are in the guise of a response to a specific charge of trolling (amongst other things) coupled with a positive invitation on the part of the poster to take the matter to Hell, and when they are the default position of the person in question.
Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on
:
Wasn't directing anything at you.
Best I can see you are doing your job.
I love Martin to death. That is the case even when he is mystifying as hell. Deliberate messing with other posters is a no no and he knows it.
[ 19. November 2017, 13:41: Message edited by: Tortuf ]
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
I was answerting rolyn, in fact.
I love Martin to death too but sometimes it really does feel as if it will be the death of me.
Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on
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Plus this particular maudlin ramble contained the following gem:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So I leaned back, hands in pockets, made the right noises.
IOW, Martin would have us know he used his words -- that is, "noises" -- to bend some poor stranger's head back around the right way.
This, apparently, shows us that Martin's perfectly capable, even when drunk, of pouring the soothing balm of coherence out upon a selected audience. We here, however, are apparently not worth that bother, as we're not currently weeping in the toilet.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
I love Martin to death. That is the case even when he is mystifying as hell. Deliberate messing with other posters is a no no and he knows it.
Does he? He says he knows it. But that's different from knowing it. He keeps coming back to it like a dog to vomit. By his actions he shows no sign of knowing it at all. Like a man who swears up and down he can speak Hungarian, then shows no sign whatsoever of understanding anything anyone says to him in Hungarian, nor ever speaks a word of it himself.
Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on
:
Actually, I think he was being metaphorical in that bit. It wasn’t another person he was engaging coherently with, but himself, as his reflection in the mirror. And Jesus. Natch.
Any further interpretations will be subject to a reasonable fee on request.
ETA CP with MT
[ 19. November 2017, 14:57: Message edited by: Yorick ]
Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on
:
Being Martinized can be an edifying experience at times.
His crack about "Gilmour is live from Pompeii" was pretty damn funny once I understood it.
But, that is just me. I had to learn the hard way that I cannot ever demand that those around me act in any specific way and thereby find happiness. I have to find that happiness for myself, or never find it at all.
Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on
:
In the proper spirit of Hell being a forum whose real (though perhaps paradoxical) purpose is reconciliation for the sake of general harmony, might I suggest a simple solution to the angst of the OP and others who find M60 annoying, etc.?
Anyone who finds issue with this fellow should post their grievances herein in the style of the fellow himself, and the post deemed to be the best be awarded the prize of a mousethief cooler.
No doubt he’ll have to suffer reading them all by compulsion, and the circle of roundness will be complete.
You’re welcome.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Like a man who swears up and down he can speak Hungarian, then shows no sign whatsoever of understanding anything anyone says to him in Hungarian, nor ever speaks a word of it himself.
"A légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
( "My hovercraft is full of eels" )
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
And here I thought I had picked Hungarian randomly. May I fondle your bottom?
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
My nipples explode with delight!
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Being Martinized can be an edifying experience at times.
His crack about "Gilmour is live from Pompeii" was pretty damn funny once I understood it.
But, that is just me. I had to learn the hard way that I cannot ever demand that those around me act in any specific way and thereby find happiness. I have to find that happiness for myself, or never find it at all.
Sorry to get in the way of exploding nipples or whatever else makes you happy, but don't encourage the guy.
Yes, sometimes there is an insight lurking in Martinese, and sometimes (more rarely) it's worth working for.
But when it turns out that the kernel is him deliberately toying with somebody else, and specifically with something they experienced as a moment of spiritual intensity, it stops becoming fun.
Martin begs us to take his dark nights of the soul seriously, and to be suitably clement, but he'd rather troll others' intimate experiences than respect them.
Besides, Martin should have learned long before now that sustained listening to Pink Floyd numbers is a sure-fire way to get depressed, even without alcohol.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Martin begs us to take his dark nights of the soul seriously, and to be suitably clement, but he'd rather troll others' intimate experiences than respect them.
This has been my experience. Especially since his most recent epiphany.
quote:
Besides, Martin should have learned long before now that sustained listening to Pink Floyd numbers is a sure-fire way to get depressed, even without alcohol.
Well there's your problem. Wrong mind-altering substance.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
I dunno, I suspect Martin's utterings are reflections of Martin's internal dialogue. He probably can't understand why others don't understand or don't also get to the same thought space.
I'm not sure this is really an excuse for posting this way on a bulletin board when he must know that 100% of other readers do not always understand what he is talking about.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
Hi, I'm Martin. I'm a disrespecter of others, directly and indirectly. It's projection of clinical self loathing. I'll keep it to myself.
Cica - 'seetsah', mousethief. The only Magyar I know. Your nemesis. Kitten.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'll keep it to myself.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I love Martin to death too but sometimes it really does feel as if it will be the death of me.
I think many of us are familiar with that feeling. Like the lovable alcoholic sat on their usual perch in the boozer. Bit annoying sometimes, but when they eventually peg it all the regulars have a whip round to pay for a headstone.
Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I dunno, I suspect Martin's utterings are reflections of Martin's internal dialogue.
You're not wrong. It's definitely stream-of-consciousness, though of the raw, unprocessed variety. Martin has the mindset I associate with many of my male 18-20-year-old students: he imagines that, because he's managed to think something, that something is worth smearing all over the Ship's cabins' walls.
What he, and the above-mentioned students, fail to grasp is this:
(A) Thinking something doesn't automatically confer significance, and
(B) Part of the writer's job is to form an intention or purpose for his/her writing, and then carefully select from what s/he writes those words, phrases, and sentences which carry out that purpose or intention, and
(C) Leave the rest of the cryptic, irrelevant, tangential, meaning-free drivel on the cutting-room floor BEFORE POSTING.
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
He probably can't understand why others don't understand or don't also get to the same thought space.
Given that Martin gets called to Hell REPEATEDLY for this same offense, and that at least a dozen posters have had a go at explaining these basic principles of communication to Martin, I suspect his "failure" to understand is conscious, deliberate, and perhaps even malicious.
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm not sure this is really an excuse for posting this way on a bulletin board when he must know that 100% of other readers do not always understand what he is talking about.
And there you have it.
Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on
:
Perhaps we could form an intervention group for Martin. Martin needs an editor.
Martin-lovers, and there definitely are some, can volunteer to edit Martin's posts -- say, for a week at a stretch. Martin sends all his posts to that volunteer, who removes the mystifying detritus, sends it back to Martin, who then posts the edited version.
Perhaps eventually Martin will begin to grasp how to edit himself.
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
Martin has the mindset I associate with many of my male 18-20-year-old students:
Not your educational establishment; not your undergraduate philosophy society. No requirement for formal coherence here.
Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
Martin has the mindset I associate with many of my male 18-20-year-old students:
Not your educational establishment; not your undergraduate philosophy society. No requirement for formal coherence here.
I teach writing, and I require coherence.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
No requirement for formal coherence here.
No, but I'm holding out for basic respect for other posters.
Although Martin's most recent post here has me feeling like Tigger here.
Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on
:
Are some of you people being held at gunpoint, being forced to read Martin’s posts?
We should have an agreed codeword, so these poor people can call for help through the Ship without alerting their captors.
Wait a minute!
Maybe that’s why Martin60 keeps going on about being ‘saved’ and writing bizarrely incoherent and obscure posts! He’s trying all the words until he accidentally gets the codeword right!!! He’s being held at gunpoint!!!!
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Are some of you people being held at gunpoint, being forced to read Martin’s posts?
Hosts are.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Are some of you people being held at gunpoint, being forced to read Martin’s posts?
We should have an agreed codeword, so these poor people can call for help through the Ship without alerting their captors.
Yes.
And we do that on the Hosts board.
(We also talk about you.)
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
[x-post]
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Are some of you people being held at gunpoint, being forced to read Martin’s posts?
That is sort of a host's job description.
But that aside, one might choose (out of respect for another poster...) to answer a post of theirs that asks a question, or try and clear up a misunderstanding, which is where this round of Martinsplaining all began.
When the outcome is that Martin drags up other bones of contention, slags off other posters, invites any dissenting voice to carry on in Hell, wraps the whole in the verbal equivalent of molasses, admits that at least part of this spectacle is just toying with other people, and with intimate parts of their experience at that, and then responds to the inevitable Hell call with displays of entrails, posting while drunk, and self-pity that's deserving of a blog but nothing else, it makes you want to loop Pink Floyd albums for all eternity.
[ 19. November 2017, 17:55: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
it makes you want to loop Pink Floyd albums for all eternity.
Always with the Pink Floyd. Why can't you pick on Nickelback like everybody else?
Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on
:
Oh man. It’s the fucking internet. You’re gonna get all types on here, and you can’t push the ones you don’t like overboard if they’re determined to stay. Not even the PtB would do that, but I betcha they’d have old Martin marooned in a split flash if he did actually deserve it by serious breach of the rules of the place. As hinted at above, I should know.
Yes, the PtB have no choice but to read his posts- all of them, all the way through, carefully- but you other whingers sure as hell don’t. And nor do I, which is why I don’t. Lucky, aren’t we?
Martin’s here because, a) he wants to be, and b) because Adminisphere permits him. And I think that’s grand, even though I also think Martin’s a prick.
Nobody is holding a gun to your head demanding that you read his posts so maybe just scroll past? It’s the small price of a wonderful principle.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
Just trying to salvage a tiny sliver of consistency in the chaos.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Always with the Pink Floyd. Why can't you pick on Nickelback like everybody else?
POI: Martin alluded to PF in one of the mysterious cryptic posts mentioned above.
I only know because I googled some of the phrases to try to work out what it was all about.
Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on
:
Yes, Yorick, non-hosts can scroll on by. Here's the thing, though: when Martin sticks his ramen-noodle oar into a thread, he frequently also derails it. I was engaged with the "Mary, consent, etc." thread when Martin butted in with one of his sly asides, and it came to a virtual halt. Martin is the knot in the wood that warps the saw when planing boards.
It's hard to scroll past when there's nothing further on to get to.
Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on
:
Okay. How does a person derail a thread if nobody reads his posts? Or hers?
Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on
:
Look. It’s about freedom of choice. Martin is free to choose to post here. You are free to choose to read his posts*. It’s a great thing, fuckers, and you should be grateful for it.
Erin was big on exactly this sort of inclusivity- really serious about it. Some of you people sound like those shitty sorts of Christians who ‘persuade’ people who ‘don’t fit in’ to leave their churches...
* Unless you’re a Host. In which case you have my sympathy and gratitude in equal measure. You other twats can fuck off.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
[x-post again]
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Nobody is holding a gun to your head demanding that you read his posts so maybe just scroll past? It’s the small price of a wonderful principle.
Go to Purgatory and check the list of hosts.
But that aside, for me it comes down to this.
I am insatiably curious and I am also pretty much convinced that the vast majority of those around me have insights I can learn from, even if I disagree with them very deeply about very basic things. I dread missing an insight due to prejudice.
For me, the Ship has very real-life consequences, from changing my views 180° on gay marriage through to supporting publication of an ecumentical Bible including the Deuterocanonicals which is now in every prison in France.
So on here, hosting duties aside, if I'm engaged in a thread I will do my best to digest all others' contributions (apart from the occasional drive-by snarky comment and suchlike) and interact with them in a meaningful, constructive way.
For me, Martin falls within that majority (of people from whom I can gain insights) - some of the time - which is why it annoys me so much when he indulges his ego instead of making an effort to share his insights intelligibly and interact with others, because I know he can if he puts his mind to it and doesn't treat the rest of us as his intellectual playthings.
The Ship is not the only place on the Internet where constructive discussion can be had, but I know of nowhere better when it comes to matters Christian whereas there is no shortage of places where the signal to noise ratio is unbearably low.
In this instance, Martin wilfully derailed the thread by ignoring others' clarifications, importing past arguments and unrelated disputes, and admitted he was toying with another poster.
What if anything the H&As decide to do about it is not mine to share, but H&A decisions don't bar me from coming here as a shipmate and telling him what I think of his behaviour - especially as he gave a positive invitation to do so.
[ 19. November 2017, 18:34: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Okay. How does a person derail a thread if nobody reads his posts? Or hers?
As already explained, it's never "nobody;" hosts have to read what an offending poster writes. Hosts have the additional responsibility of calling out offensive posting.
So here we are: pointing out, yet again, the Blindingly Obvious to the Determinedly Oblivious. Why Martin hasn't been banned long ago for being a jerk, I dunno. Apparently, some people find his Uriah Heep impersonations at not being a jerk persuasive.
Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on
:
I acknowledge your annoyance, and share it. But, again, exactly how can someone derail a thread if nobody reads his posts? The derailment is in the possession of the reader, not the writer.
Command yourselves.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Erin was big on exactly this sort of inclusivity- really serious about it. Some of you people sound like those shitty sorts of Christians who ‘persuade’ people who ‘don’t fit in’ to leave their churches...
This is crap. I'm all for inclusivity, my church lives by it and I remind the congregation of it almost every time I'm in front of them. The diversity of those in our congregation reflects that core value.
Here's the thing though. Inclusivity doesn't mean you get to behave as badly as you like with respect to the ground rules which hold the community together, starting with respect for others.
Again, speaking in a non-hostly capacity, in my view Martin broke several such rules on the thread in question, especially by deliberately and disingenuously toying with another poster's intimate personal experience.
I get the impression you've crashed this thread in the last page or so, and if I were to ask you to summarise how this Hell call emerged you'd be incapable of doing so without scrolling back.
Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on
:
Ohher, please read your own post again. Reading all posts is indeed the Hosts problem, NOT yours. You have no case.
Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on
:
Eutychus, I’ve read the entire thread carefully, so fuck off.
Are you Hosting here, then, or just Junior Hosting? Which is it?
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
You can't have read it very carefully if you have to ask that question. As Ohher says, for you too, it's quote:
pointing out, yet again, the Blindingly Obvious to the Determinedly Oblivious
Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on
:
Well it seems to me that you’re pronouncing an opinion about Martin’s observance of the Rules, but nit in your capacity as Host. Which is junior hosting, fucktard.
Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on
:
I’m getting stoked here. Time to step away. I’ve said what I have to say on this.
Three cheers for patience, tolerance, inclusivity and the freedoms of speech and choice!!!
Ciao.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
[x-post]
Ah, invective, the last resort of those without an argument.
I recused myself from hosting on the thread because it would have been a conflict of interest. As explained, that doesn't stop me, as a participant in the thread, and at the positive invitation of Martin, coming down here and telling him what I think of him.
Down here I have no hostly powers or capacity and am as subject to the Hellhosts as you are.
If you have a problem with how Hell or Purgatory or anywhere else is being hosted, the Styx is where you're supposed to object to it. If you're trying to tell me I'm out of line down here, it's you who are junior hosting, not me.
[ 19. November 2017, 18:55: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Ohher, please read your own post again. Reading all posts is indeed the Hosts problem, NOT yours. You have no case.
Rubbish -- unless you're also expecting non-HAs to ignore, as well, the HA posts which are also public. Ignoring HA posts, even if not directed at oneself, is generally not recommended. Once we read the HA post, which we'll do if we're trying to keep ourselves out of trouble, we'll naturally read back to see what the fuss is about.
While I agree that this does not render continuation of the thread impossible, it does slow and sometimes divert the flow. Take a look at any thread where there has been Hostly warning, and you'll see there's usually at least a significant lull in the action following, and often there's thread-death. So posters who regularly occasion Hostly attention pose risk (depending on the behavior) to the smooth operation of the Boards, however much scrolling-by goes on.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
There ain't no host like a Hellhost host.
You can all tie yourself in knots about who gets to read what (or not). No one but Hosts are under an obligation to read in their domain, but it is also true that there are conversation killers that are hard to scroll past, as if they were a fart in a lift - easier to get out a floor early than ride all the way up smelling that stink.
Martin doesn't get special treatment. No one gets special treatment. But there is still grace.
Let's get back to beating Martin with birch twigs. Anything else on this tangent, take it to Styx.
Doc Tor
Hell host
Posted by RooK (# 1852) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Ah, invective, the last resort of those without an argument.
...and first volley by assholes who just fucking enjoy it.
Also, fuck you Martin, you self-absorbed shitweasel.
Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on
:
It occurs to me that posters like Martin pose a dilemma not unlike that raised by the Weinsteins, Polanskis, Frankens, and Woody Allens etc. of the world. Nothing to do with sexual misbehavior, of course, but here's the central issue: the jerkiness may well be there (of course, that's an eye-of-the-beholder problem). But there are also other qualities -- other content, insights, contributions, etc. -- that are valuable and desirable, at least for many posters. How each of us weighs the annoyance and jerkiness against the valuable contributions is going to offer hosts headaches.
I have no answers, here, but clearly, Martin has a following who find parsing his obscurities worth the time and effort involved, and who can say they're wrong?
Do we betray our personal values by watching the admittedly brilliant work of actors, directors, musicians, etc. whose personal behavior we abhor?
After all, appreciating a viewing of Hannah and Her Sisters doesn't require me to molest a young family member.
What's different here, though, is that the "public" behavior of posting on a bulletin board is also that poster's private expressive behavior, and can interfere with other posters' use of these boards.
I dunno. Among the many things I appreciate about the Ship is its refusal to do member ratings, cater to the whims of high-volume posters, and the willingness of Hosts and Admins to thrash disagreements over rulings out in a more-or-less public way in the Styx. I confess to being glad that I need not take a decision on this particular issue. Whichever way I decided, I am sure I'd come to regret it.
Posted by RooK (# 1852) on
:
Nope. The theoretical¹ artistic merit of Martin's posts, however completely undone they are by his fuckstardedness outwith Hell, do not contribute even slightly to the calculus for letting him stay. It is instead weighed purely by giving every voice a chance to contribute (equal among all Shipmates) versus trouble caused by having them present. For most people, this comparison is easy. For Martin, it's a very near fucking thing. He's already on a so-called "second chance" requiring him to not be intentionally incoherent to veil his trolling, having been banned for it once already.
I realize that we're all trapped in our own minds, and these prisons affect our perception and interaction with the world. But cthulhu-fucking fuck, Martin. I'm embarrassed enough reading my teenage journals, but they pale compared to your continuous grandiosity. Maybe, just occasionally, shut the fuck up.
¹ TRANSLATION: Massively over-rated narcissistic wankery.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
Martin has the mindset I associate with many of my male 18-20-year-old students:
Not your educational establishment; not your undergraduate philosophy society. No requirement for formal coherence here.
No, not at all, but a little informal coherence would be helpful.
I read Martin’s posts, if I don’t understand them I scroll on past. Simples.
Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on
:
I’m aware this post will make people hate me, but this is something I feel very strongly about.
What RooK is talking about above is precisely what makes the Ship special and worthwhile. Inclusivity.
In some ways, it’s a pity it’s called a Ship, as it’s really the opposite of that. I see the place more like a house by the side of the superhighway. The front doors are nailed open, and there’s a neon ‘Welcome!’ sign brightly lit. The house has a great many rooms, and there’s a never-ending party going on. In each room are numbers of people, some staying for ages, others coming and going. Some just look in through the doorways from the hall.
The people here are chatting about all kinds of stuff from cake recipes to personal substitutional atonement, and they come from all walks of life. Some are bishops, some are neo-nazis. There are leaders and criminals, housewives and hermits, but the one thing they ALL have in common is that they’re welcome to hang out here, by highest principle. They are all invited to the party regardless of who or what they are. Despite it, mainly!
The owner of the house is up in the attic, and pops down from time to time for a GIN and to put a tune on. He has a few trusted friends and neighbours to keep an eye on the party and make sure nobody pisses in the aspidistras. Of course, there are house rules, but these exist entirely to safeguard the open welcome and to facilitate the chat.
The original inspiration in opening the doors was to provide somewhere for people to be safely and authentically unrestful, but it soon became more than that- a proper community.
Some of the partygoers are practically resident here. Many have formed serious and genuine relationships with one another, and, just as in real life, some of these characters are popular and others not.
My point?
It’s that we are all united here by one thing- the democratic inclusivity of the welcome. It’s a beautiful and rare thing, and not to be fucked with, however much you may resent the odd drunk tramp who shuffles in, interrupts and disturbs the nice academic theological debate you’re enjoying with your cronies in the sitting room. He may in fact be homeless and need the place more than you.
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
:
Meh. Welcome has its limits.
Just because you welcome all comers round your house doesn’t mean you let them set fire to the carpet.
Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on
:
Well duh. Hence the house rules prohibiting ignition of flammable items, enforced by the H&As.
But the spirit of inclusivity must not be jeopardised by individual partygoers or cabals of them.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
That's all very eloquent, Yorick, but also bollocks. Forums have to have rules and moderators, especially to stop trolling. I can welcome someone to my house, but if they shit on the carpet, they can leave.
Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on
:
You say shit on the carpet or set fire to it. I disagree.
What’s happened here is that some partygoers have been annoyed by someone lurching onto their dance floor, clumsily (and maybe belligerently) treading on their toes and ruining their best disco moves, and they’re whinging in Hell about it as is right and proper. So far, so repetitive.
What I find objectionable is when that legitimate whinge turns into an illegitimate and thinly-veiled call for the bouncers to remove the offender from the premises because ‘he shat on the carpet’.
It’s an open house party! Disco routines will occasionally get disrupted, but it’s worth it.
Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on
:
I agree with both Yorick and the feathered serpent. There are boundaries of behavior. Trolling is one of them.
Deliberately messing with another shipmate is a more iffy proposition. Confessing that you are deliberately messing with someone is less than discrete and is an exercise in calling trouble down on your head.
As to other bad behavior, there are a lot of execrable posts on the Ship. I have made several myself. There comes a line between laissez faire and nuisance that may only show up clearly over time. Hence the hosts.
Not my circus thankfully.
Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on
:
I do not disagree about there being a line to be crossed, and I’m glad we have such subtle and deft hosting here. But I dislike watching the way people get so reckless about throwing the baby of inclusivity out with the bathwater of derailed discussion.
I think I’ve made my point though, so will STFU now.
Don’t forget what wins, kids.
Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on
:
There is no doubt that some posters rejoice in the opportunity to scold.
I think that says more about them than the target of the scolding.
Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on
:
But, to stretch Yorick’s image to breaking point, if someone keeps coming to your party, dancing clumsily, treading on people’s toes, spilling drinks etc., gives every intention of doing so intentionally (or at least not caring that it’s happening), then when confronted with this makes hand-wringing apologies but carries on doing it - repeatedly - then aren’t the other guests entitled to complain about this behaviour and wonder if he should keep being invited?
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
You're all in danger of edging back into Styxian territory, when I've gently suggested you steer away.
If you want a conversation about under what circumstances a shipmate gets planked, you are free to do so, even encouraged to do so. Just not on this board. Vrubatsa*?
Doc Tor
Hell Host
*understand
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
It's always comforting to know that there's someone more irritating, less competent or simply a bigger dick than oneself.
Next time you wonder why someone is still on board, reflect on this.
(edit: Cross-posted. Kind of.)
[ 20. November 2017, 13:30: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
I like your analogy Yorick
The clumsy dancer should remain welcome imo. S/he could be any one of us.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You're all in danger of edging back into Styxian territory, when I've gently suggested you steer away.
If you want a conversation about under what circumstances a shipmate gets planked, you are free to do so, even encouraged to do so. Just not on this board. Vrubatsa*?
Doc Tor
Hell Host
*understand
Stygian surely Doc?
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
The moral seems to be Never shit on a burning carpet.
It’s moot which is worse; the invincibly convinced, the abusive (I’m not here to discuss, just call you names) or the mind gamers.
I’m inclined to non-engagement in all cases - apart from when a particularly good opportunity for mockery arises.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Stygian surely Doc?
Every Stig needs a dump...
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on
:
I rather liked Yorick's heart-on-sleeve offering, myself.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
It's always comforting to know that there's someone more irritating, less competent or simply a bigger dick than oneself.
Next time you wonder why someone is still on board, reflect on this.
(edit: Cross-posted. Kind of.)
You bin lookin'?
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
Martin, dear martin, while I have taken any number shits I've liked better than you, occasionally one of your turdic posts actually floats. You're like Don Quixote mated with Ted Nugent.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
It's always comforting to know that there's someone more irritating, less competent or simply a bigger dick than oneself.
Next time you wonder why someone is still on board, reflect on this.
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
way too heavenly for the nether-regions.
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
:
I think Martin is really great. I enjoy many of his posts. I don't really care if his comments are relevant or even if they make sense. Sometimes his posts are beautiful.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
What were your account details again?
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
:
oh, silly!
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Martin, dear martin, while I have taken any number shits I've liked better than you, occasionally one of your turdic posts actually floats. You're like Don Quixote mated with Ted Nugent.
That's nice to no..., I've always stuck up for you too, as others have said that you're not fit to eat with pigs, but I said you were.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
Most merciful God in Lamb Chopped, Eutychus, all here, I confess that I have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what I have done, and by what I have left undone. I have not loved you with my whole heart; I have not loved you in my neighbors as myself. I am truly sorry and I humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on me and forgive me; that I may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen.
Almighty God in my Shipmates have mercy on me, forgive me all my sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen me in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep me in eternal life. Amen.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
And using that prayer in that way just sounds like another bit of taking the piss. It definitely does not sound sincere.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
I'll take orthopraxy over orthodoxy any day of the week.
Go, Martin, and sin no more.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
And using that prayer in that way just sounds like another bit of taking the piss. It definitely does not sound sincere.
That's the problem with having form.
I'm prepared to take it at face value, but Martin, bear in mind that trust is something that needs constant building and maintenance.
Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on
:
I'll throw in my offer to edit Martinposts.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
The Americanism is unforgivable however.
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
:
I was going to post in support of Martin, but the tone of that prayer ... Oh dear, it does come across as a personal attack, doesn't it?
A Hell call for posting unclearly on a thread where the OP was unclear, I could not tell what was comment and what quote: That was an odd call, Euty.
In my more aspy moments I can be unclear too, I often read back thinking, "why did I post that," which is why i defend people posting in different ways.
But I withdraw my support for Martin, who seems to have forgotten that to be passive aggressive there needs to be a passive part.
Martin, people were, in my opinion, attacking you without cause. The prayer post supplies a cause. Anything they say about you from here on is deserved. I know you are intelligent, so why post like a cockwomble?
Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The Americanism is unforgivable however.
Yeah, well, then, offer withdrawn, asshole. I'll stake my Americanisms over your incoherence any day.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The Americanism is unforgivable however.
Over Martinisms?
Ashes and sackcloth for you, and maybe a barbeque.
"St. Martin's feast day falls in November, when geese are ready for killing".
Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
A Hell call for posting unclearly on a thread where the OP was unclear, I could not tell what was comment and what quote: That was an odd call, Euty.
It was a lot more than that. Dismissing loads of people as "having to believe" in "fairy stories" was a real poke in the eye.
Yeah we'll get over it. Again. But it's not kind.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
balaam - I'm sorry you see it that way. I was attacking no one, but if that's what you perceive I don't know what I can do to change that perception.
Ohher - Ma'am, you SHOULD use American spelling, I should not. I apologize for appearing to be anti-American, which in regard to spelling and pronunciation - Texan 'bidness', I am not. In fact I believe American spelling to be a logical evolution of English and paradoxically I believe it is more true to the English of late C18th Boston? I'm a strong believer in usage is correct, my preference is for Oxford spelling.
no... indeed, the goose is getting fat.
Erroneous Monk. You're right. Purgatory is no excuse for unkindness. Nothing is. I'll try and say nothing in future rather than be what I fundamentally am at core vacuum. Unkind.
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'll take orthopraxy over orthodoxy any day of the week.
Go, Martin, and sin no more.
Me, I like
Orthopoxy:
the continued adherence to irritating people.
Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Ohher - Ma'am, you SHOULD use American spelling, I should not. I apologize for appearing to be anti-American, which in regard to spelling and pronunciation - Texan 'bidness', I am not. In fact I believe American spelling to be a logical evolution of English and paradoxically I believe it is more true to the English of late C18th Boston? I'm a strong believer in usage is correct, my preference is for Oxford spelling.
Spelling has almost nothing to do with the incoherence in your posts (or even in mine). I am also quite capable of adopting British spelling where called for (i.e., writing for an audience consisting solely of users of British English -- a situation unlikely ever to arise aboard Ship).
First, the Texan "bidness" you refer to is a pronunciation issue, not a spelling one. Assuming the Texan in question received at least a primary school education, that word would be spelled "business," which is acceptable in British, American, and even Texan usage.
Second, the primary task of the writer -- that is, someone who writes -- is communication. Does the arrangement of pixels on screens located on several continents and read by people using a wide assortment of first languages convey meaning? If so, congratulations. If not, try again.
Is that pixel arrangement "correct" according to standards of spelling, usage, and punctuation which may, in some cases, be somewhat localised or localized (take your pick) rather than universal among users of the language in in question? That depends on whether the usage conveys meaning or trips the reader up to the extent that s/he cannot follow the thought being expressed. I submit that spelling is rarely the culprit when the latter happens.
Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
I was going to post in support of Martin, but the tone of that prayer ... Oh dear, it does come across as a personal attack, doesn't it?
Hmm. I read it entirely at face value. Strange how perceptions can vary.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Ohher - Ma'am, you SHOULD use American spelling, I should not. I apologize for appearing to be anti-American, which in regard to spelling and pronunciation - Texan 'bidness', I am not. In fact I believe American spelling to be a logical evolution of English and paradoxically I believe it is more true to the English of late C18th Boston? I'm a strong believer in usage is correct, my preference is for Oxford spelling.
Spelling has almost nothing to do with the incoherence in your posts (or even in mine). I am also quite capable of adopting British spelling where called for (i.e., writing for an audience consisting solely of users of British English -- a situation unlikely ever to arise aboard Ship).
First, the Texan "bidness" you refer to is a pronunciation issue, not a spelling one. Assuming the Texan in question received at least a primary school education, that word would be spelled "business," which is acceptable in British, American, and even Texan usage.
Second, the primary task of the writer -- that is, someone who writes -- is communication. Does the arrangement of pixels on screens located on several continents and read by people using a wide assortment of first languages convey meaning? If so, congratulations. If not, try again.
Is that pixel arrangement "correct" according to standards of spelling, usage, and punctuation which may, in some cases, be somewhat localised or localized (take your pick) rather than universal among users of the language in in question? That depends on whether the usage conveys meaning or trips the reader up to the extent that s/he cannot follow the thought being expressed. I submit that spelling is rarely the culprit when the latter happens.
Thank you, sorry for causing the perception of the elision of spelling and pronunciation. Business is business of course in writing. It's a fact, as I understand it, that the pronunciation 'bidness' is de rigueur, therefore is a correct usage, for Texans.
Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It's a fact, as I understand it, that the pronunciation 'bidness' is de rigueur, therefore is a correct usage, for Texans.
Not being Texan, I can't, with any authority, say, but I doubt this. Both usage and pronunciation vary with social class or discourse community among Americans, as they apparently also do among the British. I suspect that "bidness" prevails in certain Texan discourse communities, while "bizness" is the preferred pronunciation among other Texan discourse communities.
On this side of the pond -- as, I suspect, on yours -- usage or pronunciation becomes "correct" when it's routinely employed by a majority of educated users of the language.
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It's a fact, as I understand it, that the pronunciation 'bidness' is de rigueur, therefore is a correct usage, for Texans.
It’s not standard Texan pronunciation. It’s a pronunciation sometimes encountered in African American dialect or slang. As a slang term, it can refer to a less-than-above board commercial operation, like selling Rolex watches on the sidewalk. Or it’s used in a phrase like “he got all up in my bidness,” which can mean either he was being nosy or “we were face-to-face and he was yelling at me.”
/Tanget over, back to your regularly scheduled Hell call.
Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It's a fact, as I understand it, that the pronunciation 'bidness' is de rigueur, therefore is a correct usage, for Texans.
It’s not standard Texan pronunciation. It’s a pronunciation sometimes encountered in African American dialect or slang.
My my. Our something or another is showing.
Bidness is a common pronunciation in all white country club bars in Macon Georgia and surrounds. So is PeeCan.
Martin, just remember to be kind when you are getting into a battle of wits with an unarmed combatant.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
Hope this helps y'all. Tear off and take one as needed:
In my experience,
In my experience,
In my experience,
In my experience,
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It's a fact, as I understand it, that the pronunciation 'bidness' is de rigueur, therefore is a correct usage, for Texans.
It’s not standard Texan pronunciation. It’s a pronunciation sometimes encountered in African American dialect or slang.
My my. Our something or another is showing.
Nothing’s showing other than your assumptions. I only speak, as mousethief rightly points out, from my experience, as well as my interest in dialects and my doing some research on the use of “bidness” in American dialect generally, which pointed to its use in African American dialect and slang specifically.
I'll take your word for that it’s a common pronunciation in all-white country clubs in Macon. (No surprise that "pee-can” is.) It’s not at all common a few states north of Macon—in my experience—nor have I encountered it being used by many actual Texans, as opposed to movie/TV Texans.
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
:
I thought that this thread might smack of bullying for a while, or at least stacks on the mill primary school style (great fun unless you were on the bottom), but it's possibly not that bad. After all, if I got this much attention I would be alternating between sugar-high and fetal-position anxiety, both enjoyable in their own way.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
I'm trying to envision what bullying Martin would entail. How would we even know?
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
Here you go folks, in The Styx, Martin60's latest heroic attempt at suicide by admin.
"Apparently I'm 20% narcissistic with a higher than average degree of exhibitionism, a degree of self-sufficiency and 'authority'.
Surprisingly I have minimal superiority, entitlement, exploitativeness and vanity.
Go figure."
He could have fooled me.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
Let me say this (not for the first time):
What amazes me more than Martin's obfuscation is his sudden, dramatic, absolutely unambiguous crystal clarity whenever he seeks to defend his behaviour in the Styx; all his avuncularity, his ambiguity, his mysticism falls away like a cloak.
I keep talking myself into thinking he can't help his enigmaticness and then he goes and posts one of these ultra-clear Styx posts and reminds me that he can do so easily - when he senses his own best interests are at stake.
I can see no other explanation for this than excessive self-centredness.
He can be perfectly clear, but most of the time he can't be bothered, or obfuscates for the lulz at the expense of the community.
Posted by Pooks (# 11425) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Here you go folks, in The Styx, Martin60's latest heroic attempt at suicide by admin.
"Apparently I'm 20% narcissistic with a higher than average degree of exhibitionism, a degree of self-sufficiency and 'authority'.
Surprisingly I have minimal superiority, entitlement, exploitativeness and vanity.
Go figure."
He could have fooled me.
I actually thought that was pretty funny if he was being wry. (Which I took it to be.)
I do wonder whether he is aware that narcissism is a major stumbling block to his sig though.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
I posted in Styx that it's what he does, not his inner life, which is of any interest. Strong drink, lack of or too many pills or smoking things, idiot savantedness, bopped his gourd, humuncular masturabtory circle jerk in the cortex,... none of it important.
Posted by Pooks (# 11425) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I posted in Styx that it's what he does, not his inner life, which is of any interest. Strong drink, lack of or too many pills or smoking things, idiot savantedness, bopped his gourd, humuncular masturabtory circle jerk in the cortex,... none of it important.
I disagree. Generally speaking, sometimes knowing the intent behind a post does help us interpret one another's post differently.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pooks:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I posted in Styx that it's what he does, not his inner life, which is of any interest. Strong drink, lack of or too many pills or smoking things, idiot savantedness, bopped his gourd, humuncular masturabtory circle jerk in the cortex,... none of it important.
I disagree. Generally speaking, sometimes knowing the intent behind a post does help us interpret one another's post differently.
I'm not including Martin in this. I generally agree with you. Just not for him.
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pooks:
I disagree. Generally speaking, sometimes knowing the intent behind a post does help us interpret one another's post differently.
If the underlying intent is manipulation, the post is not worth reading.
Moo
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
FWIW:
A couple months back, he made a wicked pun about
"Spongiform theolopathy".
It's in Purg. I thought it was funny, anyway.
[ 07. December 2017, 03:46: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
The fact that Martin can be funny is no justification for him failing to respect the community.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
No, but it is a point in his favor, so I thought I'd toss it into the mix.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
It's not a point in his favour if it's part and parcel of manipulative behaviour.
Do you actually know any people in real life who think that wit acts as some sort of get out of jail free card? They are not nice people to hang out with.
Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on
:
Okay, I don’t seem to be able to stop myself from getting annoyed by this. Maybe it will help to sound off.
Eutychus, would you mind stating exactly what you wish to achieve by your crusade here? It looks to me like you’re trying to manipulate Martin60 and/or the PtB to have him leave/removed from the Ship, which makes your complaints about his manipulativeness achingly hypocritical.
So, what about it? What do you want to happen? And before you rebound with some lie about only wishing he would moderate his behaviour, please try to be as honest as if your God is actually real and watching you.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
Your "question" is what's (blatantly) manipulative here.
I'm trying to get him to moderate his behaviour, because I think it's detrimental to the community. If you choose to pre-judge that as a lie, there's really not much point trying to have a conversation with you.
Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on
:
Oh right. You’re trying to get Martin60 to moderate his behaviour despite your stated exasperation about his perpetual failure to do so. But the diplomacy here must be very tricky for you, mustn’t it Eutychus, because you’re perfectly aware of the extreme slenderness of the thread by which he hangs on here, the conditions of which depend very much on the extent to which he disrupts the boards by pissing off Shipmates and Hosts, and which extremely slender thread you persist to hack at by flagging his behaviour by complaining about how you think it’s ‘detrimental to the community’ and so on.
I see your ugly disingenuousness, and (or so I would presume you believe) so does your God.
Perhaps your time would be better spent on behalf of the community by praying for better tolerance? At the very least, you could stop your ‘I’m not, YOU are’ every time I call you out. It’s pathetic and shrill.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
How is asking a "question" and then telling me that if I give one of the answers offered, it must be a lie on my part, anything other than manipulative?
I'm as entitled as the next person to take my frustrations to Hell. That's what it's for. And if Martin repeat offends, and someone else draws attention to it, I see no reason not to lend my support.
If the Ship were to become full of people with everybody else on "ignore", there wouldn't be much going on.
[ 07. December 2017, 09:54: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
Is it the right time to point out, Yorick, that you're only still here because of (a) H&A's forbearance and (b) your willingness to moderate your own errant behaviour?
Apparently it is. The rules - basic, goddamn rules - apply to everyone.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pooks:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Here you go folks, in The Styx, Martin60's latest heroic attempt at suicide by admin.
"Apparently I'm 20% narcissistic with a higher than average degree of exhibitionism, a degree of self-sufficiency and 'authority'.
Surprisingly I have minimal superiority, entitlement, exploitativeness and vanity.
Go figure."
He could have fooled me.
I actually thought that was pretty funny if he was being wry. (Which I took it to be.)
I do wonder whether he is aware that narcissism is a major stumbling block to his sig though.
Martin60 has been here for over 15 years and while he has been funny and profound at times he has been obscure and self-indulgent far more often.
He problem isn't narcissism, just an inability to follow simple instructions that 99.9% of shipmates find no problem. Maybe he takes delight in sailing as close to the wind as possible, but any sailor can tell you the perils of that.
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
He problem isn't narcissism, just an inability to follow simple instructions that 99.9% of shipmates find no problem.
It's not an inability, it's an unwillingness. When push comes to shove, he does obey instructions quote:
Maybe he takes delight in sailing as close to the wind as possible, but any sailor can tell you the perils of that.
ISTM he takes delight in irritating the hell out of people.
Moo
Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Is it the right time to point out, Yorick, that you're only still here because of (a) H&A's forbearance and (b) your willingness to moderate your own errant behaviour?
Apparently it is. The rules - basic, goddamn rules - apply to everyone.
Well quite. As I intimated earlier on this thread, I should know. I am not generally liked onboard, and indeed I am surely one of the most highly scrolled-past of all posters. And yet I feel hugely privileged to be allowed to continue as a member here despite some egregious behaviour that quite frankly makes Martin60 look distinctly snowy.
So, I happen to identify with the tedious old fucker, and furthermore I honestly believe that the wonderfully humane inclusiveness of the place is diminished each time anyone is planked or walks away, notwithstanding the ballache their presence may be. Gordon Chengs and SquigglyAndrews as much as Sines and Gorts.
I am therefore probably oversensitive when I sense people are trying to send others to Coventry, and IF Eutychus is honest about having no agenda to encourage Martin60’s departure, then I offer him my sincerest apology. If NOT, he can fuck off and die in a fire (as long as he remains here on board as an active participant, obvz.)
Love, etc.
[ 07. December 2017, 11:14: Message edited by: Yorick ]
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
:
Yorick, if you want to understand just what the latest furor is about, read this thread. You will probably want to skip quite a lot.
I value the diversity of the ship, but I have no tolerance for people who insult and patronize those who disagree with them.
Moo
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
[x-post with Moo]
I have no agenda to get rid of Martin. As posted on this thread earlier, I love him dearly and would be sorry to lose him.
That said, and as also discussed previously on this thread, in my view inclusivity does not mean a blank cheque to accommodate persistent behaviour that abuses the group, or a prohibition on calling out such behaviour.
I've got time for anyone with wildly differing views to mine if there's effort on both sides to engage meaningfully and respect the context, and that includes Martin, witness me interacting with him here - this morning.
[ 07. December 2017, 11:22: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
[QUOTE]
He problem isn't narcissism, just an inability to follow simple instructions that 99.9% of shipmates find no problem. Maybe he takes delight in sailing as close to the wind as possible, but any sailor can tell you the perils of that.
This absolutely hits the Martin60 nail on the head.
Posted by RooK (# 1852) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I am not generally liked onboard, and indeed I am surely one of the most highly scrolled-past of all posters.
Perhaps; I am not a good judge of what other people like. However, I do tend to pause on my scrolls through boards to read your posts in particular. Partially because of ongoing curiosity to see what narrow facet of reality you are intersecting with at the moment, but mostly because of the profound genuineness of your participation.
Martin's posts have aligned but inverse selective reading from me. He has the same tenuous connection with shared reality, but his posts are drenched with guile and affect. I read many of his posts - all because some Host or another has exclaimed WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT on the dedicated Crew boards and I am forced to attempt to translate his latest bullshit.
quote:
IF Eutychus is honest about having no agenda to encourage Martin60’s departure, then I offer him my sincerest apology.
It strains my oath to maintain confidentiality, but it should be said that Eutychus is a paragon of thoughtful deliberation and considered reflection regarding all such conversations. I have grown to respect his honesty; if he says he has no agenda then I believe him.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
Me too.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Yorick, if you want to understand just what the latest furor is about, read this thread. You will probably want to skip quite a lot.
Hard to see that Yorick wants to understand anything. Just to come and call names and smear calumny, then act the beaten dog when someone calls him on it. Get over it, Yorick. You are capable of being a worthwhile contributor. You are certainly not showing it here.
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