quote:

---

Originally posted by PeteC:
This is it. Trainees are allowed.

---

Oops, silly me.
Think it's the way we use language in the various processes in the Church of Scotland and I was in 'default' mode. Thanks for putting me right!

Something that continually plagues me as I wander and wonder through the training is feeling the irony of a very heavy emphasis on 'reflective practice' but being piled high with so much stuff on top of doing my academic work and placements - so no time to actually do reflecting of any depth or substance. There's a sense of 'we want you to learn how to be reflective practitioners, but we're not actually going to demonstrate a model in which you can do this.'

How do other folks find time to both do and be? Or am I just ridiculously disorganised...?!
 

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Posted by rexory (# 4708) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by joan knox:
How do other folks find time to both do and be? Or am I just ridiculously disorganised...?!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceannaideach:
God'd been nudging at me for over half a year now and having been on a CPAS ministry and you weekend last month, I'm feeling more drawn to it.

---

Ceannaideach - I ran for 20 years ... responding to half a year's nudging is pretty darned good in my book. Go well
 

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Posted by Ceannaideach (# 12007) on :
 
Thanks Joan

(But half a year can feel like 20 years when you're my age )
 

---

Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rexory:

quote:

---

Originally posted by joan knox:
How do other folks find time to both do and be? Or am I just ridiculously disorganised...?!

---

27 years after ordination,I'm still struggling with the same question. Studies are replaced with administration and paperwork. It's a life-long battle to keep spiritual balance.

---

I was ordained in 1982. Rexory speaks the truth.

All of formal ministry is a continuing process of formation. I have found that God is always working on us, shaping us, moulding us. This side of the Parousia, we will never be complete. But God continues to use us, cracked and broken vessels that we are, to accomplish His purposes.

One of God's little jokes on us (or at least on me) is that the older I get, the less I "know" but the more I think I understand. (Seeing that in print looks terribly cryptic, doesn't it?) My certainty has gradually given way to understanding that we don't have all the answers, and that is OK. As it says in the Book, the just shall live by faith.
 

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Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
This is entirely true, of course. And I have managed to take on board the useful lesson of knowing that nobody is indispensible. I'm just wondering, time-wise, if I could just clone myself so that one of us sleeps: that'd be really rather grand

[ 03. January 2011, 17:21: Message edited by: joan knox ]
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 
Speaking of reflecting - this must be at least the 3rd of these threads I've posted on now. Good job I don't post often or I could have been saying that of the last 13 years!

Joan - I am one of those annoying mega organised people who fits 5 times more into a day than is humanly possible and I still feel the same as you do re my training and time for reflection.
 

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Posted by steady (# 15334) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceannaideach:
I'm just starting out in the discernment process. Well I say just starting, God'd been nudging at me for over half a year now and having been on a CPAS ministry and you weekend last month, I'm feeling more drawn to it. Terrified but more accepting of what God might be wanting me to do.

Next step is to talk to the vicar again.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceannaideach:
I'm just starting out in the discernment process. Well I say just starting, God'd been nudging at me for over half a year now and having been on a CPAS ministry and you weekend last month, I'm feeling more drawn to it. Terrified but more accepting of what God might be wanting me to do.

Next step is to talk to the vicar again.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by Joan Knox
Something that continually plagues me as I wander and wonder through the training is feeling the irony of a very heavy emphasis on 'reflective practice' but being piled high with so much stuff on top of doing my academic work and placements

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by aig:
This is something I need to know more about. I am waiting to go to theological college (September) and for the past couple of years, as part of my discernment process, have been doing a part time theology BA (1/2 time) while working 32 hrs a week in a moderately stressful job. This has been busy but do-able.
So what is it about the actual going to college bit that ratchets up the pressure and stress? I know there must be something because I have followed a couple of ordinands blogs where they post loads in the run up period to college and then become ominously quiet for weeks.

I like to think that knowing what 'it' is will help me....

---

Well aig, academically I think you will have a little bit of a head-start having done some p/t studies already, so it might not come as quite a shock when you start with the f/t stuff.
Before I had been accepted by the CofS, I was already in my 4th year of the degree [4yr degrees in Scotland], so the requirement from the church was for 2 further years of study at postgrad level, which was so that conferences and placements could fit into that time-frame too. [Except the uni. decided to pay me to stay and do a PhD and so I will defer for 18 months before I go on probation - 15 month f/t final placement... I was told that I am on the slow boat to China route to ordination!]
So, prior to candidacy, I was happily thriving doing a f/t degree. It's when the placements [Oct through to end May 10-ish hrs/week], the conferences, the church essays and the group meetings were put on top of the academic that piled the pressure on. And that's all okay - I think that the tricky thing is having the two very different kinds of hats, although they do connect the focus and pressures can be quite different.
While I know that being a f/t minister is piled high to bursting with all sorts of demands, at least the focus is on the one area...broad though it may be.
My tradition is probably not the same as yours, so I don't know if this is of any use to you in your own process. Enjoy the move to f/t study/training and I think physically time-table space for yourself to 'be' and try to stick to that. Now, if only I could follow my own advice!!
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Ok so I have done the form. At least, I have an answer for each of the questions. I have done a little background reading - Ramsey et al - but I have tried to answer the questions honestly and with what I think, not to make up some synthesis of what I have read. What is the protocol on this? Do I go through them all with my PP and others, do I send them off to the DDO as they are? I don't want to treat it like an UCCA form and polish it to the nth degree, but I don't want to look like a shmuck either.
 

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Posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis (# 3886) on :
 
I don't think the forms need to be particularly polished. They are more of a discussion starter, so the BAP panel have a bit of info to start talking to you. I think they go direct from your DDO to the min div (at least they do in this diocese) so they don't form part of the decision in whether you get a BAP or not, unlike most application form & interview situations.
 

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Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
Laxton's Superba - are you describing the 'BAP Registration Form' or something specific to your DDO/Diocese?
If it is for your DDO: we were advised to write as much as we wanted and it was a useful basis for the BAP form when that came round. If it is the actual BAP form: your DDO will let you know if it is in the style they think OK.
There seems to be a fine line between being yourself and not scaring the horses - that is the great value of a good DDO.....
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
It's the DDO's form. Think I will go with gut instinct and leave it with my first thoughts. Thanks folks.
 

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Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 
I'm coming towards the end of a part-time theology course and wondering what to do next. I'm also about to start looking for a new job as government funding cuts mean I may well be facing redundancy in a few months' time.

I feel like there are plenty of directions I could go in - look for a new job (perhaps in a new part of the country), look for part-time work and carry on with the part time studies (I'll get a Masters in 2.5 years' time if all goes well) or apply for a full-time course. In a way this is the problem. I don't yet feel a definite call to any one of these paths, and I'm kinda thinking I won't get a definite call. Maybe God wants me to follow what I think is his will, so he's not going to completely spell it out for me.
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I'm coming towards the end of a part-time theology course and wondering what to do next. I'm also about to start looking for a new job as government funding cuts mean I may well be facing redundancy in a few months' time.

I feel like there are plenty of directions I could go in - look for a new job (perhaps in a new part of the country), look for part-time work and carry on with the part time studies (I'll get a Masters in 2.5 years' time if all goes well) or apply for a full-time course. In a way this is the problem. I don't yet feel a definite call to any one of these paths, and I'm kinda thinking I won't get a definite call. Maybe God wants me to follow what I think is his will, so he's not going to completely spell it out for me.

---

Sounds to me like you're on the right track SCKevin.

Some people get it spelled out for them in a rather dramatic way and in no uncertain terms. To some I think it's a process of time, discovery, and threading many different things together to say "oh yeah, this is where I think it's at."

Either path may offer themselves for this particular ministry and then it's really up to the church to decide.


Good luck to you.

And hello to Ceannaideach and joan knox. Welcome to the thread.

I'm stuck in no mans land at the moment. Supposed to hear from the director of training and the academic chair to start the academic year on 15th Feb. No news yet!

Sorry to hear you've been unwell steady.

[ 09. January 2011, 11:44: Message edited by: Evensong ]
 

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Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 
Thanks Evensong, and may you hear about your training soon. The guy speaking at our church meeting this morning said something that tied in with your time and discovery thing - he was saying about a man who met Mother Theresa and asked her to pray that he would have clarity about what God wanted him to do. She replied that she wouldn't pray for that, as clarity was the final thing that the man had to let go of. He should exercise faith instead of waiting for clarity, she told him. I'm keeping hold of that message for myself!
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
I like that. Nice mix of being and doing.
 

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Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Pleased to hear your plans, Evensong, and very best wishes.
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Thank you Barnabas.

Let's see how long I last before they kick me out.
 

---

Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:
...
Let's see how long I last before they kick me out.

---

Just steer straight.
 

---

Posted by Ceannaideach (# 12007) on :
 
Well my vicar has recommended me to the diocese and I'm now in the system. Just waiting for an advisor to become available.

It feels a little (I want to say odd but it doesn't quite fit, weird wouldn't do it either,) strange to have taken this step in faith, sort like waiting in the calm before the storm.

That quote from mother Teresa about going forward in faith instead of waiting for absolute clarity fits me so well.
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Congrats Ceannaideach.
It is a funny kind of limbo, isn't it, wondering what will happen next - if anything.
I am going to see my parish priest next week with my DDO form, DDO has been back in touch and was very kind about my form anxiety.
 

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Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
'reflective practice' is the big buzz phrase up here in the frozen wastes of the northern Calvinists. If I do much more reflection I think I'll be able to qualify as a disco mirror ball.
We've been told to write an essay on Ann Morisy's Journeying Out: a new approach to mission, which I've done... but the only thing that was in any way cheering about it was the fact that it was so full of inconsistencies and contradictions and macrame theology that it made me think that perhaps none of us really have it sussed when it comes to mission.

What books are others prescribed to read for training/ discernment, and what are/ were your thoughts...just out of curiousity?
 

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Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :
 
John Pritchard's 'The Life and Work of a Priest' was very useful at the discernment stage because he uses visual metaphors and that works with my visual brain. Since being accepted I've found 'If You See George Herbert on the Road Kill Him' a good book for a bit of realism about what lies ahead in the parish. The time management and rule of life stuff was good as well.

For reflective practice, which we all have to do these days, I liked the SCM Study Guide on Theological Reflection as it had a quickie run through most of the major schools of TR which meant I got to try lots and find the ones that work for me.

All basic stuff but if you are a bear with little brain, or an ordinand who is juggling work, family and study then basic is good.

[ 14. January 2011, 20:57: Message edited by: Poppy ]
 

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Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :
 
I had an abortive start at chaplaincy training last year. I am now thinking about having another go this year.

I will have to become more disciplined. I also have to sort out how much I am doing this because it is a way to serve, and how much because it may help me.

But the new academic year is approaching and I have to make some decisions soon.
 

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Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :
 
If You See George Herbert...is a brilliant book. I've been in ministry for almost 9 years, and it is the first book I have read which made it all make sense, if you know what I mean.

I'm (almost) tempted to add the letters KGH after my name...

(I love Herbert's poetry, by the way, just not the way in which his memory has been venerated by some sections of the church...)
 

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Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
As a vocational book I love, love, love 'Under the Unpredictable Plant' by Peterson. There does seem to be a dearth of stuff out there by Reformed folk: Piskies and Catholics are way ahead of us on this. And while I'm happy to read that stuff as well, it is a quite different understanding of ministry. Ah well, vive la différence!
 

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Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
I bought a copy of the 'If you meet George Herbert....' book last week. It is excellent and has good references and bibliography as well (which no one has mentioned - great for future essays on ministry - I hope...). I'm not quite sure what it leaves me feeling in terms of my vocation - but I would agree that it could be essential reading for wannabees like me.
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
I've bought that book too. A very good and accessible read with lots of practical pointers too.

Well, I have filled in The Form and sent it to the DDO, who has emaield to say he's got it. Yikes.

Bumping this thread too as it had dropped off the first page.

Thinking of everyone else on the discernment road.
 

---

Posted by Codepoet (# 5964) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by joan knox:
As a vocational book I love, love, love 'Under the Unpredictable Plant' by Peterson. There does seem to be a dearth of stuff out there by Reformed folk: Piskies and Catholics are way ahead of us on this. And while I'm happy to read that stuff as well, it is a quite different understanding of ministry. Ah well, vive la différence!

---

 

---

Posted by urbanbumpkin (# 13505) on :
 
Right at the beginning of the process, I have "The Talk" with the vicar today. Not that I'm nervous - oh no!

Question I was asked the other day, and which I'm trying to find the words to articulate at the moment, so wondered what you guys felt. What is it that is specific about ordained ministry that you feel called to?
 

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Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
Ultimate power of people's souls... bwah hahahhaha... oh, no, wait...

It depends what type of ordained ministry, and also, what your denomination's theological understanding of ministry is.

[ 07. March 2011, 13:18: Message edited by: joan knox ]
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
Urbanbumkin - welcome! For me it's something about walking alongside people at whatever their stage of life or faith or circumstance, and making them aware of God's presence. It's about seeing people develop. It's about the beauty of persons. It's about being in a position to feed them, through the training I'll have and through the sacraments. But that sounds presumptious. SO I don't know!

I am still in time-out mode because of baby arriving last october. I was meant to be getting back in touch "in the new year" but it hasn't happened yet because baby is still not sleeping well enough for me to have "deep" conversations without wanting to cry. I'm so so so tired. I'll have a good few days and be thinking about getting in touch and then I'll have a weekend like this one and feel like I'm back to square one. I'm hoping for easter now...
 

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Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :
 
Good luck, Jenn. Here I am hoping my baby'll hurry up and be born, so that I can be less tired. I must be mad...

One more sermon to preach in my placement church; hooray. But it is the one that a half-dozen members of the congregation have to assess for me, so I've got to get it right.
 

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Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :
 
I led the service (assessable as part of my chaplaincy course) yesterday. I practised it with my non-liturgical house church and they liked it. The academy was happy with my free adaptation to their liturgical form.

I provide the (minority of one) non-liturgical non-sacramental student perspective. The more I continue with this course the more I am feeling it is the right thing for me to do.
 

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Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hart:

The way I see it, all of life is discernment and all of life is potentially formation. Training is something we move in and out of as we undergo transitions. Now, of course, the discernment questions change as we go through life, as does the intentionality of formation, but I would resist any too stark a division of our lives like that.

For me (in temporary vows and studying for my MDiv) the discernment questions are "Now that I'm living the vowed life, do I still feel called to live it for life?" and "As I experience and reflect more on ministry, do I still feel called to priestly ministry?" These are different questions than when I was in the informal stage, the applicant stage, during candidacy, during novitiate. The questions will be very different upon taking final vows ("Given that I'm in vows, how do I approach X in my life") and being ordained ("Given that I'm a priest, how do I approach Y in my life.")

Similarly, I'm currently in what we deliberately call "initial formation" to stress that formation is life-long. The obedience I am assigned to is "studies" and that's a particular way of concentrating on being formed. Some of that looks like training, much doesn't. Through spiritual autobiographies, etc., we're encouraged to look at how our life pre-seminary was formative.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
The more I continue with this course the more I am feeling it is the right thing for me to do.

---

 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by urbanbumpkin:
Right at the beginning of the process, I have "The Talk" with the vicar today. Not that I'm nervous - oh no!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by urbanbumpkin:

Question I was asked the other day, and which I'm trying to find the words to articulate at the moment, so wondered what you guys felt. What is it that is specific about ordained ministry that you feel called to?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by urbanbumpkin:
Question I was asked the other day, and which I'm trying to find the words to articulate at the moment, so wondered what you guys felt. What is it that is specific about ordained ministry that you feel called to?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jenn.:
Urbanbumkin - welcome! For me it's something about walking alongside people at whatever their stage of life or faith or circumstance, and making them aware of God's presence. It's about seeing people develop. It's about the beauty of persons. It's about being in a position to feed them, through the training I'll have and through the sacraments. But that sounds presumptious. SO I don't know!

---

quote:

---

The more I continue with this course the more I am feeling it is the right thing for me to do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by urbanbumpkin:
Question I was asked the other day, and which I'm trying to find the words to articulate at the moment, so wondered what you guys felt. What is it that is specific about ordained ministry that you feel called to?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceannaideach:

Typically of God the news came while I was in one of my "I don't know what I'm thinking, believing God wants me to do something so big" moods.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jenn.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceannaideach:

Typically of God the news came while I was in one of my "I don't know what I'm thinking, believing God wants me to do something so big" moods.

---

So true. I decided to bite the bullet and booked an appointment with the ddo to get back into stuff after maternity leave. Appointment gets made and the next day I go into major glum mood about how rubbish I am at all of "this sort of thing".

---

I'd love to say that when the bishop puts hands on one's head all those sorts of thoughts and feelings disappear - but they don't.

I reencounter them regularly. Every.Single.Saturday.Night...



So I guess the thing is that those thoughts and feelings are par for the course, and one has got to learn to ignore/work through/realise them for what they are...
 

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Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
For some reason a line from a Bob Dylan song has wandered into my head - You Gotta Serve Somebody.
This in response to my own inner ponderings everytime I conduct worship - who am I really doing this for? Is it about me, so self-serving... or about God and the people of God? Always a sobering thought. I figure the day I stop asking the question might be the day I should quit this gig.
 

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Posted by matthew_dixon (# 12278) on :
 
I swear it would be easier to do a degree in "Defence Against The Dark Arts" at Hogwarts School than to get through selection here in Llandaff. Looks like I'll soon be onto my fourth different DDO! It's not THAT bad a job being DDO is it?
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Ha ha Matthew. I am sorry you are having such a long job of it. I am in the middle of writing an essay for my DDO - what kind of priest does God, the church, and the world need in the twenty-first century and could it be me? So of course I am on the Ship procrastinating........
 

---

Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by matthew_dixon:
I swear it would be easier to do a degree in "Defence Against The Dark Arts" at Hogwarts School than to get through selection here in Llandaff. Looks like I'll soon be onto my fourth different DDO! It's not THAT bad a job being DDO is it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by matthew_dixon:
It's not taking too much of a "long time" - it's barely over four years since I saw my first DDO - it's just that we're going through them at a rate of knots!

---

Indeed. To be fair, the first one you saw (whom I never saw as at that point I was still talking to one from my previous diocese) had done the job for a reasonable length of time, it's the two intervening ones who have not lasted long. Has this one even made a year?

I think the job combination is part of the problem. The first one Matthew saw managed the combination with Archbishop's chaplain, I think because he'd spent all his ministry in the diocese and had things very much under control. The next one (my first) was catapulted into that and never really got on top of either role. Current one (who I've never actually seen qua DDO as he sent me back to the vocations advisor) who was appointed after quite a gap and after the job and been advertised with two different parishes from the one that it ended up with, has it combined with a single church. It is not clear why he has gone. I happened to see him at a diocesan event on Thursday and he didn't mention anything DDO related to me but I wasn't feeling like it being brought up anyway. Another friend spoke to him on Sunday and nothing seemed amiss. Matthew phoned me yesterday to say he'd just spoken to him and he wasn't DDO anymore!

I'm not sure where I am vocationally myself. It doesn't feel like the right time to pursue at the moment. It's partly I'm convinced they'll hold the fact I'm currently unemployed against me and partly because I'm not disciplined enough in my prayer life.

The irony of all this is that the Church in Wales is supposedly actively encouraging young vocations!

Carys
 

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Posted by Ship's Stowaway (# 16237) on :
 
Thanks for the mention of George Herbert's "The Country Parson." I have downloaded a copy and will read it. I gather from some comments that I should be reading "If You Meet George Herbert on the Road, Kill Him!" -- but I'd have to know George Herbert better first.

[ 01. April 2011, 09:28: Message edited by: Ship's Stowaway ]
 

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Posted by Darllenwr (# 14520) on :
 
Just to add a small (and somewhat wickedly amused) "thank you" to Matthew Dixon and Carys for the news about our DDO. The amusement stems from the confusion I caused in our music group last night when I made some comment about the DDO's departure. Our Vicar's wife (who plays keyboard) said, "Yes, but how did you know? We've only just heard from the Area Dean!" I just replied with something enigmatic like, "I have my sources!", then confessed that the Ship works rather faster than the Diocese.

Just in case you didn't know, I understand that +David is taking on the role pro tem.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ship's Stowaway:
Thanks for the mention of George Herbert's "The Country Parson." I have downloaded a copy and will read it. I gather from some comments that I should be reading "If You Meet George Herbert on the Road, Kill Him!" -- but I'd have to know George Herbert better first.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angel Wrestler:
Don't do it!!! Don't. Please. Get that thought out of your mind right this instant. If you know what's good for you, you'll do anything but that.

---

Read Baxter? Or Herbert?

Thanks for the personal testimony. I'd "like" it if the damn ship got with the times and provided one.*

(* I am not worthy to receive it but only say the word and we could have one)
 

---

Posted by Ship's Stowaway (# 16237) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ship's Stowaway:
Thanks for the mention of George Herbert's "The Country Parson." I have downloaded a copy and will read it. I gather from some comments that I should be reading "If You Meet George Herbert on the Road, Kill Him!" -- but I'd have to know George Herbert better first.

---

You might want to put beside it "The Reformed Pastor" by Richard Baxter.

I have been lent* "The Country Parson" to contextualise Baxter but I suspect that it works the other way too.

Jengie

*By someone firmly in the Baxter camp.

---

Dear Jengie: Thank you for the suggestion. I have downloaded the "Reformed Pastor" by Richard Baxter and will take a look. I had only read about Baxter in history books on the 17th century and did not know about this book.
 

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Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :
 
Thanks for that, Angel Wrestler.

May I quote you in the next Chaplaincy Students' service I prepare?
 

---

Posted by Angel Wrestler (# 13673) on :
 
... uh.. well, if you're serious - sure!
 

---

Posted by Ship's Stowaway (# 16237) on :
 

quote:

---

You might want to put beside it "The Reformed Pastor" by Richard Baxter.

I have been lent* "The Country Parson" to contextualise Baxter but I suspect that it works the other way too.

Jengie

---

------------------------------------

Dear Jengie Jon:

I appreciated the suggestion. It is an eye-opening treatise.

I have read about 10 pages of Richard Baxter's "The Reformed Pastor" and have to give up.

While he occupied a middle ground politically between the Dissenters (Presbyterians) and the Anglicans theologically during the English Civil War, this book (circa 1656) is very Calvinist -- he mentions the Presbyterian Westminister Confession of Faith --

Baxter thinks inadequate, lazy and wicked ministers are going to Hell. Ooops!

I'm continuing to read George Herbert's "The Country Parson" and Thomas Traherne's "Centuries of Meditation" -- same era, but Anglican priests and much gentler -- at least so far -- Herbert says that he is setting his standards for himself and other ministers very high just to encourage himself to aim high, but that any minister not reaching his standards shouldn't consider themselves a sinner.

Traherne's book is not a book on clergy conduct, but a series of very rich meditations on Christian mysticism that I had never seen before. They're beautiful. But he and Herbert seem to be working from similar assumptions.

I should mention that while I was raised as an Episcopalian, I spent a year in an Orthodox Presbyterian church as a teen, read the Westminister Confession of Faith, and admired the steely backbone of Calvinism. It is a powerful theology. But I never quite clicked with it.


[code corrected]

[ 05. April 2011, 09:10: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
You do realise that the time Baxter was writing the Westminster Confession was the statement of faith of the Church of England. In fact it is technically a CofE document, hence the Westminster. You also realise what he wrote was initially for preaching at a clergy retreat, and one specifically set up to repent of the sins they perceive.

Have you also considered that in coming a pastor you do take on pastoral responsibility for a part of the church. Go and look at what the Bible says about prophets who don't warn, or what Paul says about leaders in the church and how their sins are under a microscope on judgement day. Baxter when talking of the need for catechism of the parish and it is in that perspective that you have to take his sayings on lazy ministers.

If Callum Brown is to be believed the pattern he laid down for clerical behaviour lasted up until 1950s. The pastoral visit that was intend to strengthen a households faith. Yes definitely amongst Anglicans and even Roman Catholics. In the CofE this included visits to households that weren't church attending. Just the other week I was interviewing a woman who started going to church because her mother sent her to Sunday School after just such a visit from the Parish Priest. The mother did not go herself.

Are we really better off today when the practice has fallen into disregard?

Jengie

[ 05. April 2011, 08:21: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 

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Posted by Ship's Stowaway (# 16237) on :
 
Dear Jengie:

OK, I'll give Baxter another ten pages and see if I like him better.
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ship's Stowaway:
[Baxter thinks inadequate, lazy and wicked ministers are going to Hell. Ooops!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ship's Stowaway:
Dear Jengie:

OK, I'll give Baxter another ten pages and see if I like him better.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ship's Stowaway:
[Baxter thinks inadequate, lazy and wicked ministers are going to Hell. Ooops!

---

Well, at least he has that in common with most of our congregations!

Has somebody recommended 'Being a Priest Today' the authors being Christopher Cocksworth and Rosalind Brown?

I found/find this book quite useful.

---

"Being a Priest Today" is excellent.

Scoop: we've managed to engage Rosalind Brown to be the keynote speaker at next year's Clergy Summer School here in sunny old Brisbane!
 

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Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :
 
Found this thread, yay!

Anyway, I'm heading off to the Advisory Committee on Postulancy to Ordination (ACPO) at the end of this month. If ACPO recommends me, then I will officially become a postulant to ordained ministry.

As well, I applied to Trinity College in Toronto for my seminary studies, Trinity being a liberal Anglo-catholic school where one of our fellow high-church ship mates is currently attending. If all goes well, I will be saying good bye to the Pacific Northwest coast and heading to three years of living in Toronto.

I'm a bit nervous about the prospect. I have never lived in another province before, all my life I have lived in Lotus land. I also know a few people in TO, but it will take time for me to adjust to the big city.
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Sounds like an exciting new adventure Anglican_Brat.

Best wishes to you.
 

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Posted by Ship's Stowaway (# 16237) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ship's Stowaway:
Dear Jengie:

OK, I'll give Baxter another ten pages and see if I like him better.

---

Actually skip to the last chapter.

Jengie

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Found this thread, yay!

Anyway, I'm heading off to the Advisory Committee on Postulancy to Ordination (ACPO) at the end of this month. If ACPO recommends me, then I will officially become a postulant to ordained ministry.

As well, I applied to Trinity College in Toronto for my seminary studies, Trinity being a liberal Anglo-catholic school where one of our fellow high-church ship mates is currently attending. If all goes well, I will be saying good bye to the Pacific Northwest coast and heading to three years of living in Toronto.

I'm a bit nervous about the prospect. I have never lived in another province before, all my life I have lived in Lotus land. I also know a few people in TO, but it will take time for me to adjust to the big city.

---

Dear Anglican Brat:

Good luck!
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Richard Baxter is probably the least sectarian and most tolerant of the well-known 17th century writers. Which is why he still gets claimed by Presbyterians and Independents and Anglicans He was again a minister in the established church after 1688 - he had been one of the thousands ejected from their livings under Charles II - even though Charles had previously offered him a bishopric!

Baxter was happy to acknowledge both independent and episcopal churches as churches, and their pastors as fellow ministers. And perhaps more significantly, the Roman Catholics as well. He quotes contemporary RC writers with approval
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
I seem to have lost a post

Try the final chapter of Baxter, it is where he gets to the heart of the issue.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Ship's Stowaway (# 16237) on :
 
Dear Jengie:

I have read the last chapter of Baxter. Not sure what my takeaway is.

1. He keeps harping on how the Presbyterian ministers serving with him were so much better than the Anglican ministers whose parishes they took away during the Civil War.

I now know why the Anglicans singled him out for special persecution -- more than other Dissenting ministers -- after he refused a bishopric from King Charles II. Baxter had trashed them in a best-selling book! No power structure will forgive that.

2. He wants every minister to meet every family in his parish. Fine. Excellent idea!

But he wants to teach them the Cathechism during these meetings. Can't tell if it is the CofE catechism of that era or the Westminister Confession of Faith.

My thought -- he seems to have largely illiterate rural parishoners in 1656 -- if he was trying to teach largely illiterate rural parishoners the Westminister Confession of Faith -- wildly unrealistic. WC of F -- too complex for that audience. CofE catechism shorter, but would parishioners even understand it?

Not only that, but if they were rural, many were likely secret Anglicans of a sort. The working classes were extremely embittered against the Cromwellian ban on Christmas celebrations, etc. Some of them had a folk Anglicanism and were weary of Baxter and the other Puritan ministers.

Again, Baxter seems very politically naive.

In his place I would devoted my efforts to literacy classes and free Bibles, one per family. Hard to catechize if no one can read or knows any Bible.

2. He has some good things -- warnings to ministers against pride -- very important. Also good stuff on the necessity of ministers to keep up on book learning and better-written and delivered sermons. Good stuff!

3. He berates the clergy for conforming to government decrees on religion and urges more diversity of views in every Christian country --

but the clergy who hung onto their parishes probably felt that they had to conform to the Puritans -- they had to eat and had families to feed and probably viewed not wearing surplices, serving Holy Eucharist/Communion at tables instead of altars, etc. as negotiable as long as they were in a Protestant context.

Again, Baxter seems very naive.

4. He berates ministers for having worldly businesses and not giving enough to charity -- well, CofE parish ministers in the 17th century were notoriously underpaid, and Baxter's Puritan colleagues had taken over those parishes and their mostly low salaries.

Ironically, the Dissenting or Puritan ministers, despite persecution, became better salaried than their Anglican brethren by 1688 after the Anglicans took back those parishes.

The persecuted Dissenting congregations took better care of their ministers because there was no government parish salary to fall back on. So persecution does have some benefits.

5. Baxter talks about a reconciliation between all of the Protestant factions -- there should be a unified church. But how could this be after a decade of violent civil war partly over religious issues?

And when the 1688 revolution came, neither the CofE nor the Dissenters wanted to form a united church when offered the chance.

Again, he seems very politically naive.

Baxter would have done better nowadays with all of the ecumenical work between various denominations. He was about 300 years ahead of his time.

6. Baxter's ideas on church discipline -- if I understand him correctly, he thinks ministers should be publicly rebuking and kicking out church members who are notorious sinners and denouncing them to the civil authorities if they don't mend their ways.

Baxter exists in a different historical context from us. As an official employee of Cromwell's government in some sense? Sort of a semi-sheriff?

I understand that some Dissenting congregations and even later Anglican congregations did deny people communion and kick them out for misconduct.

How this translates to a modern context is, I think, difficult. There are people who have to be told to leave congregations because their behavior is way, way, way beyond inappropriate.

But I am still in a learning curve on that subject, so cannot yet comment on it.

7. I may be having stylistic as well as theological problems with Baxter.

Herbert's "Country Parson" -- I'm only 20 pages in -- advocates for teaching the Catechism, etc. -- and also reflects its more peaceful era -- the pre-Civil War 1630s -- but it is just written in a more cheerful and upbeat tone.

So far, only one sentence in Herbert about the need to debate "Papists and schismatics" and some gentle rebukes to his colleagues who are too subservient to the nobility. But I am only 20 pages into the book.

Whereas, Baxter keeps talking about "sin" and "hell" awaiting his colleagues who in his view are not doing their jobs. It's hard for me to 'hear' him.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Its nice to believe that people were secretly Anglican.

You maybe interested that under the Congregational Ascendancy (followed the Presbyterian) parishes were assigned to factions according to the proportion of the people supporting that faction.

Yes that means Episcopalians appointed to Parishes.

Major problem was recruiting Congregationalists to parishes. They has quite strong leanings towards Anabaptist Ecclesiology and they simply did not feel the parish system matched their understanding of church. So during the Congregational Ascendancy parishes were often staffed by Episcopalians and Presbyterians despite Congregational dominance. How is that for tolerance!

Jengie
 

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Posted by Ship's Stowaway (# 16237) on :
 
Jengie -- thank you for that historical information about the Congregationalist Ascendancy! I did not know that.

I always learn something new when you post.

I'm also appreciative that you had me slog through much of Baxter, because I did learn a lot and am a history buff of the English Civil War -- but living in America there is much that I miss.
 

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Posted by Twangist (# 16208) on :
 
J I Packer's introduction to the Reformed Pastor (it's in the Banner of Truth version and reprinted in Amongst God's Giants) is very helpful in addressing a lot of the points you raise (and downright inspiring).
 

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Posted by Twangist (# 16208) on :
 
Is there an echo?
Sorry - wierd computer
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twangist:
Is there an echo?
Sorry - wierd computer

---

Being kind, sweet and lovable I have deleted the duplicate post.

Ain't I a darling?

Twangist, my connection does that sometimes as well but at least in AS I can correct it!
 

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Posted by Twangist (# 16208) on :
 
thanks WW
 

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Posted by Ship's Stowaway (# 16237) on :
 
Dear Twangist:

I wasn't able to obtain a complete copy of J.I. Packer's introduction to the Reformed Pastor, but did get hold of some lengthy extracts. Thank you for suggesting that.
 

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Posted by moonfruit (# 15818) on :
 
Hoping someone here might have some wisdom...I'm just starting to think that possibly God's calling me to ordination, which is cool and scary and all kinds of things all at once.

However I was praying this evening, and it occurred to me, in one of those 'well, yes, duh' moments that this would mean having to give up teaching, my current job, which I love so so much...and I just cried.

How have others dealt with that part of being called to ordination - or indeed anything - when it means leaving something else behind?
 

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Posted by 3rdFooter (# 9751) on :
 
Moonfruit
It doesn't have to be as rigid as that. There are many ordained ministers who remain in secular employment. Its not just an economic thing, it is a method by which the Church can be present in peoples working week (including school students). Teaching has a ministerial aspect anyway. A Self Supporting Minister (SSM) with predictable availability in the school vacations would be a blessing to many parishes.

Or looking the other way, don't lose sight of the teaching perspective of ordained ministry. You might lose the formal structure of the school setting but the teaching gifts you have been given weren't given to be wasted.

It is not an easy thing to work through. Ministry is a 'whole life' thing regardless of how bread gets on the table.

for discernment

3F
 

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Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 

quote:

---

Moonfruit wrote;
However I was praying this evening, and it occurred to me, in one of those 'well, yes, duh' moments that this would mean having to give up teaching, my current job, which I love so so much...and I just cried.

---

I went through this experience too and I think it is something that you have to let develop. I was certain I would train part time and carry on working in my day job (I am a paediatrician) until 3 months after my BAP, when it seemed right to train residentially (and therefore, the day job had to go....)
This was such a difficult decision for me that I deferred entry to college for a year (I start this September), really to let me get my head round a decision which I know was God-given.
 

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Posted by Jel (# 9755) on :
 
Can I suggest something less organisational - the Spirit does not necessarily call you to a place in a heirarchy, although He can. After being Jonahed into a position (two levels below Javier Solana) where He wrote chunks of future human history, and then led me onto salvaging the Roman Eucharistic vocation, I'm now easing off to document.
Those of you in the mid-west will recognise there's a school of numerologists whose trust in the Lord is being tested by the considerable number of web pages which detected in that structure an apocalyptic intent. They've got it wrong because mankind does not set that agenda, God does.
The reason I raise this here, though, is that my vocation was outside the Organisational: I was used as a Prot to sort out Catholics who were not listening. Now they are, and my work in that respect is done: the background has led me onto a next step. It was certainly tested by the Church Army seminary, indeed under the toughest test possible, entirely justified by the quite extraordinary circumstance presented through me. The core theology is that of the young Samuel, listening seriously with the Lord's Prayer and nothing else as soul food. If we have something in our hearts at the same time, the Lord knows, so trust Him. The miraculous can and does still happen. That's what you're on about here, so go with it, happy that even if you don't know where that blind step of faith is taking you, His faithfulness will test you, stretch you, sometimes all the way, and you'll be doing what you were made to be.

And finally, to leaven the mix, don't forget:
Descartes: To do is to be
Sartre: To be is to do
Sinatra: Doo-bee-doo-bee-doo.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
I'm not entirely sure this belongs here but a young friend of ours has been badgering God for a clear call for months. She received a pretty random email about Christian voluntary work helping with the never ending relief work in Haiti and, as she's a pharmacist, felt this was it. She prayed, received another email from another source for much the same thing so, not wanting to test God any more, she has applied and now has a stash of forms to complete, including a rather intimidating Statement of Faith.

Can you please pray for C, for the process to go smoothly and for her to be fulfilled in whatever happens now.
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jel:

And finally, to leaven the mix, don't forget:
Descartes: To do is to be
Sartre: To be is to do
Sinatra: Doo-bee-doo-bee-doo.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

Can you please pray for C, for the process to go smoothly and for her to be fulfilled in whatever happens now.

---

For C.

Can't hurt to volunteer in Haiti. Certainly God's work if she can do it.
 

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Posted by moonfruit (# 15818) on :
 
Thanks for your thoughts - I think it's mostly a case of trusting God and letting things develop. Part of what freaked me out was that this would really be the first time that following God will have genuinely cost me something. That'll take a bit of getting used to, especially when I'm just starting to feel properly settled, actually living and working somewhere for more than a year at a time.

Still. Let go, and let God. He knows what he's doing. The more immediate task is, I guess, to do some reading then have a chat with my vicar. Who I suspect might not be entirely surprised. Ho-hum.
 

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Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
I don't know how this pans out in the CofE, but out of Catholic priests ordained last year in the US, the largest single previous profession (including "none") was teacher. It was my background too.

The way I see it, I'm not leaving teaching to enter the priesthood. The priesthood is a threefold ministry of word, worship and shepherding. A priest is a teacher, a public pray-er and a servant-leader. I just got started on the teaching part before the other two.

Now, I have joined a teaching order, so there is a decent chance I might go back to classroom teaching at some point (I taught a 1 credit seminar as part of a service learning trip this semester, actually). But, as part of my vow of obedience, I have to be open to never stepping foot in a classroom as teacher again. I can profess that because I know that I can be a teacher in other roles as well.

I know some parish priests who live out very fully the vocation of teacher. I know some for whom that's not as central and whose gifts are more in other areas. I would endeavor to be part of that former group.
 

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Posted by matthew_dixon (# 12278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Darllenwr:
Just in case you didn't know, I understand that +David is taking on the role pro tem.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by matthew_dixon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Darllenwr:
[qb] Therefore, at some point I need to get across to a bishop that always wanted to do a Maths PhD that it's something I personally am glad I never ended up doing!

---

Whereas I got* 'how can someone with a Cambridge PhD minister in the Valleys?' So your lack of PhD was held against you, whereas my PhD has been held against me!

I possibly need to think about seeing the Vocations Advisor again, but being unemployed and being knocked back for jobs hasn't done my self-confidence much good and that's my biggest problem!

Carys

*From the Vocations Advisor, whom the last DDO sent me to see, because I hadn't, even though I'd seen the previous DDO and a DDO in a previous diocese.
 

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Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :
 
Just an update:

I have been accepted into Trinity College in Toronto and will attend in the fall. As well, this weekend, I will attend the ACPO conference for my diocese. If recommended, I will officially become a postulant of the Church.

Pray for me
 

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Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Just an update:

I have been accepted into Trinity College in Toronto and will attend in the fall. As well, this weekend, I will attend the ACPO conference for my diocese. If recommended, I will officially become a postulant of the Church.

Pray for me

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Poppy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Just an update:

I have been accepted into Trinity College in Toronto and will attend in the fall. As well, this weekend, I will attend the ACPO conference for my diocese. If recommended, I will officially become a postulant of the Church.

Pray for me

---

Many, many prayers Anglican_Brat. Hope all goes well.

---

Thank you, Poppy. I had an amazing weekend at ACPO and have been recommended to postulancy.

I'm following my dream and vocation!
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Anglican_Brat
 

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Posted by Wannabe Heretic (# 11037) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:
Anglican_Brat

---

Seconded - congrats A_B

Might I ask for people's prayers too please - I'm off to BAP on Monday

(those of you who aren't in the C of E, or went through this under a previous acronym, I mean selection conference )
 

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Posted by 3rdFooter (# 9751) on :
 
Go well, WH.

Treat BAP like a retreat, but with some serious self examination.

If you feel the need to do something (e.g. scream in the open air, prostrate yourself in the chapel, whatever), just go with it - it might make sense later.

Let the Spirit speak how she will.


3F
 

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Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :
 

 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
May the Spirit be with you!
 

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Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
Come Friday, I'll have finished my first year of seminary! It's been exciting, though more tiring than fun.
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 
Congrats Anglican Brat - now the fun begins ...

Hope you enjoyed your BAP WH - that soudns odd I know - but despite it being my BAP I did enjoy mine!
 

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Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :
 
The Bishop made it official, I'm now a postulant!

Thank you for your advice and prayers. I will continue to pray for all people of our Holy Church to discover their calling, whether to the ordained priesthood, or deeper engagement with their baptismal vocation.
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
Well, I'm being sent to bap. I'll know the date soon, but looks like being sept/october.

I want to scream arrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggh and eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee at the same time. I've been exploring this for a long time, so the thought of a decision being made is very exciting, but the thought of it being made by someone I don't know is terrifying.
 

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Posted by religious kittens (# 9927) on :
 
Can I just say how much I like the H & A Day adjusted title for this thread! No-one's more scared than me at the thought I'm supposed to be a future leader of the church!
 

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Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :
 
Oh yes, be afraid, be very afraid, mmmwwwhhaaaaaaa
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Yes, once upon a time clergy seemed very senior and very important and appeared to know everything. We were in awe of them.

Now, people we knew as little children and even babes in nappies are being made priests and some of them are even being appointed as canons, bishops and other senior ministers. They, of course, cannot possibly know anything and the church is sure to be heading for hell in a handbasket.

I guess it was ever thus.
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 
Took me a while to find the thread! Lol worked it out in thee nd though - I knew I posted on it last night so it couldn't have gone that far!
 

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Posted by Wannabe Heretic (# 11037) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bagpuss:

Hope you enjoyed your BAP WH - that soudns odd I know - but despite it being my BAP I did enjoy mine!

---

Weirdly enough, yes I did enjoy it, thanks The group there was great - we all had a laugh together and at the end the panel secretary leading it said we were a particularly noisy group!

But now for the waiting...
 

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Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
Just out of Presbyterian curiosity...
I get that BAP is a selection conference, but what do the initials stand for?
Ta in advance - trusting that I am predestined to receive an answer from one of you

[ 12. May 2011, 16:30: Message edited by: joan knox ]
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Bishops Advisory Panel.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Hosts: could this thread's title be edited back to the original please? I mean, I can take a joke, and all that, but now you have all had your fun doing chaos and all, can we have our thread back to normal so it looks rather more supportive than currently.
Thanks in advance.......
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
Yesterday, when I was going to change it back, my mind went blank [no comments necessary!] and I couldn't remember the original title - I hope I've got it right this time.
 

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Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
Thanks Jengie! I'd worked out the 'B' for 'Bishop' bit but tiny brain was toiling with the other letters.

Out of curiosity what's the process for the different denom's represented by this thread? [indeed, what are the different denom's represented in the thread?]

FWIW, our [as in the Church of Scotland - presbyterian] equivalent to BAP, used to be called 'selection conference' - until apparently it was felt a little un-p.c. [and perhaps somewhat Darwinian...!]
Now we have 'assessment conference' instead, which is after the end of an 8 month placement with a congregation other than your own, towards the end of which is a 'local review' - with the minister of that congregation, someone from Ministries Council, and your Presbytery representative. If you get through the LR you then get to go to assessment conf., and if you succeed, you proceed to training - doing a B.D. and 3 placements, with several essays and 5 conferences kindly given to us all by Ministries Council to add to the fun.... Should you survive, you proceed to a 15 month full-time probation, after which, if deemed okay, you then look for a charge and are ordained into it.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
I used to be more knowledgeable of the URC method due to my dad's field of work.

Stage 1: Approach your minister or elder
Stage 2: go through whatever informal procedures the congregations thinks it should do. You might well be sent to a Enquirers conference and also may have interviews or take services. A wise congregation would set up a discernment group for this stage (it might morph into a support/contact group later). As far as I know no congregations do.
Stage 3: have your name brought before church meeting. Church meeting has to support your candidature before you can go any further.
Stage 4: go through whatever hoops the synod think are necessary almost certainly including an assessed preach
Stage 5: vote from synod supporting your canditature.
Stage 6: Assessment conference
Stage 7: training, this always includes placement
Stage 8: If you complete successfully and you still have support of the denomination (yes I know of cases where that has not happened) then you may look for a pastorate.

You are then a minister but for two years you have a senior minister to guide you.

It used to be synod was the final arbiter of who went to training where, now it is assessment conference. You went to assessment and then synod with the assessment report made its decision. I suspect this was a case of changing what we could alter in the hope that that would fix it rather than fixing what was wrong.

Jengie
 

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Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
ahhh, our systems differ in that we do not need to have the support of our minister or congregation to explore the sense of call. In an ideal world, you'd obviously like to have that, but it is not crucial to the overall discernment process, which from go to whoa can take up most of a year. The supervising minister of the congregation you have your enquiry placement on is one of your assessors. For me, what transpired out of that process - which was fantastic - was that I have gained both a wise mentor and friend as I've continued on the way as a student minister.
 

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Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by joan knox:

Out of curiosity what's the process for the different denom's represented by this thread? [indeed, what are the different denom's represented in the thread?]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laxton's Superba:
Hosts: could this thread's title be edited back to the original please?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
I hope I've got it right this time.

---

boo

You're no fun...
 

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Posted by Macrina (# 8807) on :
 
So here's the thing.

I'm an apostate as I gleefully tell a lot of people and explain the difference when they want to know. I left Orthodoxy nearly five years ago due to a combination of doubt, a really Dona-tastic controvesy in my diocese and a lot of confusion over my sexuality. None of these things are really resolved but I've always had this sense that I am running away from more than that.

I have this really powerful sense that something in my life is not right. That I am not doing what it is I am supposed to be doing and what I am supposed to be doing is living in a religious community. I had a (very) bad experience living in an Orthodox convent for a while but I think that was a bad time for me as it was abroad and at a time when I had huge huge doubts and confusion (just before I left the church).

But basically I don't want to believe in God and a calling and living my life according to this massive set of rules and expectations while at the same time I really, really do. The tension in this set me running. And I am still running, just about as fast as my feet can carry me. I've spent four years now training to be a nurse because I know I want to spend my life trying to help people in the middle of thier suffering. But even that doesn't feel like it's enough.

I'm not a contemplative. I'm a doer. I can't live my life locked away from the world I want to help it. And I have no idea how to go about reintegrating the church back into my life or which church to even go to. Or outside of that if there's even an order of monastics that would let me use the talents and skills I have to help people outside.

Anyway. That's my incoherant splurge. I don't have anyone who will take me seriously when I say I want to be a nun (or rather that I think I should be) maybe I should just give it all up as a bad job.

Answers on a postcard.
 

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Posted by frin (# 9) on :
 
As Jengie indicated, the URC process changed slightly in the last few years.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Stage 1: Approach your minister or elder
Stage 2: go through whatever informal procedures the congregations thinks it should do.

---

quote:

---

Stage 8: training, this always includes placement
Stage 9: If you complete successfully and you still have support of the denomination (yes I know of cases where that has not happened) then you may look for a pastorate.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hart:

You mention that you're still working on going back to church. I think this is where your energy needs to be focussed right now. Responding to a call to religious life must flow from an authentic living of your baptismal apostolate, which has to involve membership and participation in a local community. Seek that and if the call to religious life still seems strong when you've fallen in love with a parish, carrying on seeking!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Campbellite:
For those who are in the official "discernment process", and for those who hope (or fear) the calling of God to some form of ministry (whether or not it may lead to ordination).

Campbellite,
your most unworthy servant

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Campbellite:
For those who are in the official "discernment process", and for those who hope (or fear) the calling of God to some form of ministry (whether or not it may lead to ordination).

Campbellite,
your most unworthy servant

---

After a long time in the bilges I am seeing the Bishop in late Jul 11. Prayers needed pse
 

---

Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
whiterobe

quote:

---

After a long time in the bilges I am seeing the Bishop in late Jul 11. Prayers needed pse

---

Does this mean you are seeing the bishop with a view to being sponsored for a BAP?

and enjoy the experience; our bishop (different diocese) does a very nice prayer and blessing at the end of the interview!
 

---

Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Good luck whiterobe, I love your description of being in the bilges.

I am still down there too, have seen DDO a couple of times and written him an essay on the church in the 21st century. Things don't seem to be progressing very fast. But maybe that is for the best?

Prayers for all on the discernment road.
 

---

Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
I've got my bap date, a load of scary forms to fill in and an appointment with the bishop to discuss the decision afterwards. It all suddenly feels very very real.
 

---

Posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis (# 3886) on :
 
Prayers for all on here. I'm enjoying my curacy enormously, and starting to get excited that I shall be ordained priest on Saturday the 2nd July, and say my first mass on Sunday 3rd. All prayers gratefully appreciated.
 

---

Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
Praying for you and all the others being ordained this Petertide. It was great to chat againon Friday

 

---

Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
Originally posted by Jenn:

quote:

---

It all suddenly feels very very real.

---

The 'it' for me is ditching the day job and starting theological college in September - it is scarily real!

So, I am looking for advice here. What three things will help me cope with the transition and, ideally, help me enjoy the experience?
 

---

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
Macrina.

Your post is so jammed full of hope/possibility/ opportunity and new starts that i truly do not know where to start....

Enough to say that ...maybe... some of us will be praying for you, as you start to put the jigsaw peices together? I for one am going to be watching very eagerly as your life unfolds.

It's all a question of With Whom....Where...and When. The how and the why of it all will ( i think) come about quite naturally as you seek and wait and pray.

I am so pleased that you posted here.

 

---

Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 

quote:

---

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It all suddenly feels very very real.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 'it' for me is ditching the day job and starting theological college in September - it is scarily real!

So, I am looking for advice here. What three things will help me cope with the transition and, ideally, help me enjoy the experience?

---

-
This time last year I was where you are now Aig.
Only to me it didn't seem real until the removal vans had been and taken away all our belongings- most of them into storage. You got me thinking about what three things helped me to make the transition.
1. A very supportive spouse who though he hasn't enjoyed it himself has been a rock to me throughout.
2. Knowing a few people at least by internet if not in person so they seemed like friends as soon as we arrived.
3. Knowing that this was what I had felt called to so for so long.
I must say I have loved all my first year here at college and am looking forward to my second year. It has been a joy to worhsip daily with others, to learn more about serving God and to feel God so close to me throughout the experience.
Now just waiting for the curacy news to start to filter through!
 

---

Posted by Cenobite (# 14853) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by aig:
The 'it' for me is ditching the day job and starting theological college in September - it is scarily real!

So, I am looking for advice here. What three things will help me cope with the transition and, ideally, help me enjoy the experience?

---

I don't know which college you're going to, but as someone about to leave, my three tips would be:

1) Involve yourself in the life of the community in a way which suits your personality and gifts - the friendships you make at college will sustain you throughout your future ministry.

2) At the same time, make sure that you get yourself out of the college regularly - you need space to breathe!

3) Make the most of this opportunity to have new experiences and learn new things - especially look for variety in your placements - I did, and it has resulted in both a deepening of my relationship with God and a broadening of my spirituality.

for you in this exciting new step in your journey!
 

---

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
For folk BAP-ing..................

 

---

Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
Thanks Jante and Cenobite:

The supportive husband is ( I think) there - I'm doing the weekly boarding thing which also ticks the box for getting away!
I don't know any one either at college or going to college, but I am not too concerned about that - I like meeting new people.

I suppose my real question is: if it is so simple, why are people traumatised by the transition?
 

---

Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
Hi Aig
Sounds like you are sorted. Which college are you going to? Just in case its this one and I can say hello in person
Jante
 

---

Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :
 
You ask "why are people traumatised" by the situation of going away to college?

I suspect that it has to do with the fact of leaving home and not knowing what the future will look like, in any way, or shape, or form. Offhand, I cant think of anything else which is comparable. Most of us have the security of a home base from which we can go out and to which we return, a place we have chosen to live, and doing a "job" or other activity which we have generally chosen. We do a days work, and go home. Church is an activity which while being extremely important, doesn't necessarily fill our whole horizon. We have friends, and hobbies...

When we go to theological college everything is up in the air. We may be living in a place not completely of our choosing, the things we are asked to do may be difficult (probably should be difficult) and will stretch us. We don't know where we will be in 2 or 3 years time, even geographically. Partners may be ambivalent about the whole thing.

And, in addition, for a number of us there is that little worry at the back of our minds..."maybe they have made a mistake...maybe God has made a mistake....maybe I have heard God wrong and shouldnt be even thinking about ordination."

Going to theological college while wonderful and scary and breathtaking and all those other things, can feel like a bereavement, as we come to terms with the loss of our old way of life and of other dreams of ordinations, and have to face the reality of the possibility that it will happen.
 

---

Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
Sorry Jante - it is not the same college.

St Everid - I'm sure you are right to describe the trauma in terms of displacement, loss and bereavement. I can relate to this; I and lots of colleagues, have just been moved from our lovely, purpose built children's centre and placed in a converted gym, in a Napoleonic fort, on top of a hill. Panoramic views of Portsmouth harbour and the Solent have not made up for the sense of being a displaced person.
However the fort is quite cool - I think the submarine outside the window and the tank at the entrance set the tone nicely..........

Will theological college be like this?
 

---

Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
That should be 'St Everild' obviously...
 

---

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by aig:
...I think the submarine outside the window and the tank at the entrance set the tone nicely...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis:
Prayers for all on here. I'm enjoying my curacy enormously, and starting to get excited that I shall be ordained priest on Saturday the 2nd July, and say my first mass on Sunday 3rd. All prayers gratefully appreciated.

---

I'm spending too long on Facebook. I was looking for the 'Like' button!
 

---

Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
Blimey, it's been an age since I posted on this thread (well...the one before this to be accurate)though I have been following all your thoughts and wanderings from a distance!

Just want to say all the best to those who will be deaconed/priested soon, and those who'll be starting (or continuing) college. Hang in there, however scared you are!

I'm still on my own wandering. I wanted to leave the church after I was turned down but I didn't. Now I actually work for the church and I love my job, and I love teaching but...

(I don't know if this fits on a thread mainly about ordination, if not then I apologise.)

I'm looking at the possibility of becoming a Sister. My life would be a lot to let go of but, as I said about another vocational path a long while ago, we'll see.

I hope there are more young women (I'm 29) out there considering this path too. Hey, get in touch!!
 

---

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
First firm steps towards reader selection today.

Eeeeeks
 

---

Posted by Boopy (# 4738) on :
 
I have recently got through Reader selection and will be starting the training programme in September. Astonishing but very exciting. , , and , in roughly equal measure.
 

---

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
well that was said far too soon

i'm back for full discernment

[ 17. June 2011, 12:18: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
 

---

Posted by whiterobe (# 15020) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by aig:
whiterobe

quote:

---

After a long time in the bilges I am seeing the Bishop in late Jul 11. Prayers needed pse

---

Does this mean you are seeing the bishop with a view to being sponsored for a BAP?

and enjoy the experience; our bishop (different diocese) does a very nice prayer and blessing at the end of the interview!

---

[Duplicate deleted
Gwai, All Saints Host]

[ 17. June 2011, 21:47: Message edited by: Gwai ]
 

---

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
Having let the discernment process slide for a while, I emailed our current 'Warden of Ordinands'* last night. No response so far.

Carys

*This is the term the Vocations Wales Website uses.

[codefix]

[ 25. June 2011, 09:13: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
 

---

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
hi, a faint question for those in the uk:

Once one has landed in the diocesan discernment process....how swiftly or sluggardly do matters proceed?
Or is it a mixed bag, depending on the diocese?
 

---

Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
It varies. I have been in it for a year now, seeing the DDO, filling in forms, writing essays, having long chats. DDO has been on holiday, I have only been able to meet at certain times, so it has been more drawn-out than I was expecting, but that is probably a good thing. He wants me to go to a BAP before the end of May next year which will be nearly 2 years from initial chat with parish priest, but it deends on your diocese and your personal circs, I guess.
 

---

Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
In my Diocese they give you a time line so you have some idea of the process. For me it was 15 mth from seeing the DDO to having a BAP. But my BAP was in November - so 2 years from DDO to starting training (which is average here), However, I then spoilt it by deferring for a year - so for me, 3 years.
I have to say it was only once the BAP said 'yes' that I was able to reflect on the whole vocation thing. The extra year has been a good year!
 

---

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
from where i am sitting ( one inch over the starting line!) "extra time" is looking like a great idea....

thanks you for feed back

 

---

Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Been to the ordination as deacon of one of our congregation today. It was last year that I had my first definite sense of calling. To sit there and think "this could maybe be happening to me one day" was a hugely scary and yet amazing thought. It was a wonderful service, packed cathedral, lusty singing and a real sense of God's presence.

Thinking of any of our members who have been ordained this time round.
 

---

Posted by birdsoftheair (# 15219) on :
 
Hi Guys

I'm just popping in to join you on this thread. I have had a calling for several years but still don't know in what form (I'm nearly 50)

I'm doing a distance part time Theology degree with Aberdeen University (CLL see here if interested)
and have finally felt the need to become more involved in my local (struggling) Church of Scotland. Looking at their website for discerning a ministry scares me witless but I need to start somewhere. Actually going to the church is a start I know, but I would love to hear from you guys if this sounds fairly normal or am I just a bit

Thanks

Birds
 

---

Posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis (# 3886) on :
 
I was ordained priest on Saturday & celebrated my first mass on Sunday. Still amazed & anticipate returning to earth eventually
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by birdsoftheair:
Hi Guys

I'm just popping in to join you on this thread. I have had a calling for several years but still don't know in what form (I'm nearly 50)

I'm doing a distance part time Theology degree with Aberdeen University (CLL see here if interested)
and have finally felt the need to become more involved in my local (struggling) Church of Scotland. Looking at their website for discerning a ministry scares me witless but I need to start somewhere. Actually going to the church is a start I know, but I would love to hear from you guys if this sounds fairly normal or am I just a bit

Thanks

Birds

---

Sounds normal Birds. Getting involved in your local church is a definite good start.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis:
I was ordained priest on Saturday & celebrated my first mass on Sunday. Still amazed & anticipate returning to earth eventually

---

Congratulations Rosa. What a high. Got any photos?

[ 05. July 2011, 03:21: Message edited by: Evensong ]
 

---

Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
@ Birds - yay, go for it and don't let the 121 jargon blindside you, lol!! Have you been to the Enquirer's Conf. yet/ going to do Enquiry placement? Or still in the pre-Enq. thinking space? The Ministries Council 'hot-phrase' is 'reflective practice'... if you're not doing so already, why not take up keeping a journal as you sift through the thinking/ and the practical 'getting involved' bit in your home church?
Been through the process, loved it...
 

---

Posted by matthew_dixon (# 12278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
hi, a faint question for those in the uk:

Once one has landed in the diocesan discernment process....how swiftly or sluggardly do matters proceed?
Or is it a mixed bag, depending on the diocese?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by matthew_dixon:
The thing is, don't get disheartened if it does take a long time - sometimes God isn't quite ready for you as soon as you think he should be!

---

Or your particular church isn't ready for you.
 

---

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
....helpful posts, thank you

having waited ( my own choice) for quite a while....i've realised that i'm Quite Ok thankyouverymuch about the waiting continuing for a long time to come!

i'm now in no hurry at all.....
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Birds of the air

Picking up on what Joan Knox said, I wonder if this might be a place to start? Or if you did not want something theological then how about this. Gillie Bolton is good and has done quite a bit of work on therapeutic writing as well.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by birdsoftheair (# 15219) on :
 
Thank you all for your encouragement, links and messages.

The journal is a good idea, I do have one with one page written a couple of years ago!The books look very good Jengie, thanks and might help.

Church was much better than I expected last Sunday; last time I went I almost wept, but time and possibly God's grace has given me a new perspective. The minister isn't the easiest person to relate to and doesn't believe in lay ministry unless he is forced to use it when he is in another parish!

Guess I'll just wait and suggest a few things and see what happens
 

---

Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
Birdsoftheair, another book I found fab. fab. fab. is this one
It's a keeper and I come back to it regularly... well worth having a wrestle with at some point, tho' maybe not right this minute
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Birds of the Air

Ministers are unpredictable beasts when it comes to ordination. Some who are quite happy with Lay Leadership suddenly get up tight when someone is candidating; others who are unhappy with lay leadership will relax if the lay person is a candidate.

These may be a minority I would guess but they are substantial enough a minority to be noticeable.

Also watch out for grooming for minnistry, if a minister suspects you have a vocation, suddenly you can find yourself in positions of leadership that you did not expect. I suspect that the other can happen as well, that you suddenly find yourself out of leadership positions for much the same reason.

Jengie

[ 08. July 2011, 06:13: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Jengie.

Strange but true methinks.
 

---

Posted by birdsoftheair (# 15219) on :
 
I totally agree with you Jengie, a good friend advised me to wait until this Minister had moved on but that could take years!

People (well 2 out of a congo of 7 not inc the choir) did ask my why I had come back; (I used to help with kids activities)so I just said it felt like the right time. Not sure they knew what I meant though. The concept of God or the Holy Spirit informing my decision making is a bit alien to them.
 

---

Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
Birdsoftheair - is it possible to visit other parish churches nearby, if you haven't done so already?
Always useful to see how other folk 'do' church, even within the same denomination. And perhaps, if poss., it may be useful to spend a little time in one of them and see how that fits [or doesn't, and why!] - and get you thinking on differences in practice and theology? [unless geography is a problem re. distances, etc]

Also, I may be misinterpreting you up wrongly here, so if I do, disregard this next: while it's great to have your minister on board/ supportive... it is not an essential as it is for the Piskies - ours is quite a different understanding of ministry. You are not dependant upon your minister's approval or otherwise, if there's a calling and you go through the processes outlined by 121, that calling gets tested beyond just the local sphere.
I guess what I'm saying is, don't let what might be an awkward relationship with your minister necessarily hold you back from exploring. And... anyone can go to an Enquirer's Conference without necessarily signing their life away
 

---

Posted by birdsoftheair (# 15219) on :
 
Thank you joan knox.
I have done a bit of on line research and realised that it is very different in the COS to the COE.


I shall just have to stop being a big girls blouse and take the first steps!

Fortunately Mr B is up for it, as we live on one of many islands, any placements etc will be away from home (if it gets that far.)

birds
 

---

Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by birdsoftheair:
Thank you joan knox.
I have done a bit of on line research and realised that it is very different in the COS to the COE.


I shall just have to stop being a big girls blouse and take the first steps!

Fortunately Mr B is up for it, as we live on one of many islands, any placements etc will be away from home (if it gets that far.)

birds

---

...and if it happens to be 'one of many islands' in the west, contained within a couple of the 'we haven't discerned any women with any giftings for ministry/ eldership' women-free presbyteries... I hope that won't present a problem either!
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
I think she is slightly further North than that. Piglet seems to know quite a bit about the area.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
excellent - thanks Jengie
 

---

Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
I will give another plug for 'Under the Unpredictable Plant', which I read this weekend on retreat at Alton Abbey. A friend defines me as 'a charismatic catholic' (of the C of E variety) and most of the themes are familiar. But the author is coming from a very different angle, is immensely readable, and uses the story of Jonah in a memorable way.
I think it is really good.
 

---

Posted by birdsoftheair (# 15219) on :
 
Thank you all for your kind suggestions.
For all those wondering, I live here
though I moved from this place.

God certainly has a sense of humour as I found out today that the presbytery may be moving ministers about to cover shortages on the mainland, so things will change here soon even though I thought they wouldn't for years. How it will affect my Kirk though is hard to say, except that I think lay ministry will become even more important.

I am seriously looking to go to the next Enquirers Conference and will wait to see what comes from that.


[url corrected]

[ 18. July 2011, 03:27: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
That sounds like a god plan, Birds. I went on a vocations weekend 2 years ago and it really helped to have the space and guidance as I tried to listen to God about all of this.

I've just finished the first draft of my BAP registration form and notes for my written reflection. Next step is to redraft it later this week and then go on holiday I think the holiday will be well needed - I'm finding these forms very difficult. I'm a perfectionist and that is NOT good for this sort of thing.
 

---

Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jenn.:
That sounds like a god plan, Birds. I went on a vocations weekend 2 years ago and it really helped to have the space and guidance as I tried to listen to God about all of this.

I've just finished the first draft of my BAP registration form and notes for my written reflection. Next step is to redraft it later this week and then go on holiday I think the holiday will be well needed - I'm finding these forms very difficult. I'm a perfectionist and that is NOT good for this sort of thing.

---

I've just finished my last bit of paperwork for Church of Scotland for a wee while... in it I noted I was learning to overcome the 'paralysis of perfectionism'!! Perfectionists and forms very much do NOT go together, I agree
 

---

Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
My DDO has organised a placement for me at a mega-church of quite the opposite churchmanship to mine, so that should be interesting..... he has also asked me to read "The Shack", has anyone else read it? Getting along the road now, things seem to be swimming a bit less treacly.
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laxton's Superba:
My DDO has organised a placement for me at a mega-church of quite the opposite churchmanship to mine, so that should be interesting..... he has also asked me to read "The Shack", has anyone else read it? Getting along the road now, things seem to be swimming a bit less treacly.

---

The Shack is a good read. Although evos love it, there is a lot that is quite orthodox and acceptable to mainstream Christians.
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
I enjoyed The Shack. Worth reading. And I'm a liberal evangelical.

Just beware of heretical Trinitarian theology. I believe this has been the greatest criticism of the book.

Read it a while ago but I think the author strays to Modalism.

But anyone writing about the Trinity will naturally fall into heresy; it's an impossible doctrine.
 

---

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
...Although evos love it, there is a lot that is quite orthodox and acceptable to mainstream Christians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:
Just beware of heretical Trinitarian theology. I believe this has been the greatest criticism of the book.

Read it a while ago but I think the author strays to Modalism.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laxton's Superba:
My DDO has organised a placement for me at a mega-church of quite the opposite churchmanship to mine, so that should be interesting.....

---

This can be a wonderful and eye-opening experience. It can also be a fairly exposed and lonely time. Go preparing to get involved as much as they will allow. (Can be easier in liturgical churches were there a more 'minor' jobs to do). You may well find it hard to worship as you are used. It may be worth attending a service elsewhere in the week that is more your sending tradition. Avoid debates about the merits of your tradition and theirs - when you are the only representative of charismatic-conservative-orthodoxy you will feel particularly isolated.

3F
 

---

Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
Hello all,

Good to see that people are progressing nicely through mountains of paperwork! I remember it well...

I've just done something rash, or not. I've made contact with a community and I'm speaking to a Sister next week (I think). I'm also considering another to compare/contrast.

Blessings to all as we continue to work out where we're going and what we're doing whilst we get there.


Masha
 

---

Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
Masha For your meeting.

I have just received a mega email from my college re starting in September. This is more disturbing than I expected.
 

---

Posted by Joan_of_Quark (# 9887) on :
 
The same thing just happened to me, aig, and it made me think of the parody of "Here I am Lord" - "No, not me, Lord, I am hiding underneath the bed..."
 

---

Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
'...it's too hard Lord, I'm too scared Lord. Won't you please find someone else instead?!'

Couldn't resist. Sorry.
 

---

Posted by birdsoftheair (# 15219) on :
 
Hi Masha et al,

I think we share more than just an avatar!
I know what I need to do but can I summon up the courage to do it? Hiding under the bed sounds good to me. Trouble is God can still see me. sigh........
 

---

Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
Indeed birdsoftheair He even finds you if you try to hide in church! By the way I have noticed you have excellent taste in avatars!

Things seem to be moving for me - not sure whether I'm pleased or terrified. I'm in the process of setting up dates to visit two convents, both communities have been very open about talking to me and helping me to discern if I should join them. the Sister I spoke to was lovely, and so honest about the problems of Religious Life. Good to know they tell you the downsides from the outset!

I was having real problems setting up dates due to having told someone I'd work every Saturday morning, then I got a phonecall saying that I'm not needed every Sat which freed up time for visiting ( I hope, unless another call is in the pipeline).

[ 28. July 2011, 16:43: Message edited by: Masha ]
 

---

Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:
Just beware of heretical Trinitarian theology. <snip>

---

"We are not three gods, and we are not talking about one god with three attitudes, like a man who is a husband, father, and worker. I am one God and I am three persons, and each of the three is fully and entirely the one." (p. 101)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
I'm not sure of the source of this prayer, I think it may be Methodist, but it crops up quite a bit:


'We are not ordaining you to ministry; that happened at your baptism. We are not ordaining you to serve the Church in committees, activities, organisation; that is already implied in your membership. We are not ordaining you to become involved in social issues, in ecology, race, politics, and the search for justice and peace; for that is laid on every Christian.

We are ordaining you to something smaller and less spectacular; to read and interpret those sacred stories of our community, so that they speak a word to people today; to remember and practice those rituals of meaning that address people at the level where change takes place; to foster in community, through word and sacrament, that encounter with truth which will set people free to minister as the Body of Christ.

We are ordaining you to the ministry of the word and sacraments and pastoral care.

God grant you grace not to betray but uphold it, not to deny but to affirm it, through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Amen....'

---

 

---

Posted by Derf (# 2093) on :
 
It is indeed Methodist, I think from the Methodist church in Singapore but I may be wrong. Seasick will probably know. Either way it's very powerful.
 

---

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
well according to the the st edmunds discernement/ vocations website ...it is indeed from the ordination service of the Methodist Church in Singapore
 

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Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
Might be useful as a discussion starter amongst some ministry candidate friends re. thinking through a theology [or, indeed, theologies] of ordination - I confess that I am going to shamelessly pinch it
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 
Today I am off to see a vicar about my SSM curacy for next year Very excited, hope they like me and it all comes off.
 

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Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
SSM?
Same-sex ministry?

For the unenlightened Presbyterian here... I do not know this term Bagpuss - wot is it, ta?

[both unenlightened and unable to spell - argh]

[ 04. August 2011, 12:36: Message edited by: joan knox ]
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Self Supporting Ministry - like S. Paul's tent-making.
 

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Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
d'oh...
thank you!
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 
Hahaha not quite Joan! Bit radical for the C of E that is!
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
[tangent]As my Anglican days are now a long time ago I still think of SSM as the Society of the Sacred Mission.[/tangent]
 

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Posted by Erleuchte (# 16533) on :
 
Hellooo. New Ship deck-swab here. I'm looking forward to trawling through this thread but for now I will shamelessly plug the blog of my vocation discernment process here:

http://erleuchte.wordpress.com/

Pax, Erleuchte
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Welcome to the Ship and the thread Erleuchte

The blog looks great!
 

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Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :
 
Falling off the bottom of page 3...how is everyone?
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
All my paperwork is in and I'm panicing about my presentation!

To be honest at the moment I'm looking forward to having a decision more than anything else!
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Glad this has been bumped...
I'm on week 2 of my placement with the mega-church and it seems to be going well. I won't get to preach as hey are booked up until Christmas but I am going to take part in leading some lunchtime prayers, go along to some of the small groups and generally experience a different tradition. Little Laxton's is having fun too and looking forward to the Sunday club starting up next week.
I've actually got a pain in the side of my face from smiling and nodding so much, talking to so many people.

Diocese is organising a series of evening meets for those on the discernment road, which will be interesting - sort of pre-BAP tips?

Hope all is well with everyone else.
 

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Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :
 
Yes, that "being in limbo" is rather odd...hope the presentation goes as you wish it to!
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
"..... a series of evening meets for those on the discernment road"

Hmm, an invite for our archdeaconary one came through last week. It's still all a bit surreal.
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
We had an evening for people going to BAP in autumn a few weeks ago. It was helpful I think. I can't believe how quickly the time is going now! All the things I run here have started back up too, so autumn chaos has begun. I like it though

Is anyone else going to BAP this year?
 

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Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
sorry, everytime I see the acronym BAP - I get the giggles and think 'nice baps'
It is probably a good thing I am not Anglican, lol!
Ahh... did I just lower the tone as usual... hmmm
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 


It's all right jk, they'll change the name next week/month/year. In my day, long ago and when they very wisely decided I was "not yet ready", it had just changed from CACTM to ACCM.
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
I think I'll be BAP'ing early next year. Apparently the diocese has a deadline after which one is too late to start training in September, so last BAP result needs to be done by May.
 

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Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :
 
Whereas, to me, a bap is a largeish flat round bread roll...

WW, I think it was ACCM when I went as well.
 

---

Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :
 
Was it not ABM at one point as well?
 

---

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Yep, the one everyone else but me in the crowd I was in a few years back went to was ABM - ABbaM
 

---

Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
"..... a series of evening meets for those on the discernment road"

Hmm, an invite for our archdeaconary one came through last week. It's still all a bit surreal.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laxton's Superba:
So is it the theology or the welcome that they are doing right?

---

To go back to your original question, I think it's kind of a million dollar (pound?) one.

I think if you posed it in Ecclesiantics you'd get a number of different responses.

Why are there more people in that church than your own?

Some would say because of its contemporary worship style (the band?). Some would say it's because it might have a more "Evangelical" theology (black and white) which is more attractive to certain types.

Some would argue it depends on who the leader is. Some particularly charismatic leaders can attract all sorts regardless of worship style or theology. But when they leave, congregants often leave too.

Some would say more middle of the road or high Anglican churches have fewer numbers but more loyal ones. They stick around. Those "new fandangled worship band mega churches" attract lots of people but those people leave fairly quickly out the back door and either lose their faith entirely or revert to more "traditional" options because those kind of churches lack depth.

It's curious they placed you in this church if you are a more up the candle person.

Tho in my diocese, we do that too. But it seems to be the exception.

Go with the flow. Hope you enjoy it. And your little one too.
 

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Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
re. the placement part of our training up here in the presby frozen wastes of the north: we are encouraged to go on placements that are definitely not like our home church/theol background. This to really try to broaden our exposure to the diversity of styles/ opinions/ etc. I've loved it, even as I've wrestled with some of it.
 

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Posted by matthew_dixon (# 12278) on :
 
Just giving an update on here of how things are going. If you're someone I know in person and you're finding out this for the first time - apologies, I've not really been focussing on "keeping people up to date" at this particular step.

Basically, I got asked to send some things to our current DDO (who is also our current Bishop rather confusingly) believing these to be things he wanted me to do so we could then meet up and discuss them.

After he'd read these things through, he sent me a letter back, basically saying that what I'd sent and everything else he'd seen of me was "adequate" and that I didn't really burn with any passion or have any urgency or desire for the life of a priest. Rather contradictorily though he did also say that I offer "some evidence of experience or promise in all areas of the selection criteria"! This was done, as far as I know, without any consultation with anyone else and without actually putting me before a panel of people to assess this. I think "disappointed" would be an understatement really. I've got a meeting with him tomorrow where I'm going to raise my thoughts on his comments (and hopefully by doing so he might see my passion, urgency and desire for the life of a priest!)

Prayers gratefully received.
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
matthew_dixon
 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Feeling for you
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by matthew_dixon:
Rather contradictorily though he did also say that I offer "some evidence of experience or promise in all areas of the selection criteria"!

---

I'd like to see how he evinced 'evidence or experience or promise in ALL areas of selection criteria', when he was a potential ordinand,testing his vocation!

Does such a person ever exist outside the imagination?

Keep plugging away!
 

---

Posted by matthew_dixon (# 12278) on :
 
Well that's the thing - he thinks that person does exist, he thinks that person is me, but thinks I don't really want it, so has seemingly turned me down in spite of that!
 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
m_d - have you had your meeting with your Bishop yet?
 

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Posted by matthew_dixon (# 12278) on :
 
Yes, and it generally went okay. I'm not at the end of the road as I thought I was. It's simply a case of trying harder in the coming weeks and months than maybe I have been doing, it seems.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Matthew_Dixon

I wonder if it really is a matter of try harder or really a matter of a different emphasis in performance.

I suspect you need to think about showing your passion a bit more overtly. This is going on what is said here. It really is a bit of a personality clash.

You show your passion by developing your competency in areas you see as important to ordination. Therefore when someone asks you about your vocation talk about how you are doing in these areas. What you probably don't do is talk about what drives you to develop those areas.

There is a long history of people with aptitude but no vocation going forward to the ministry. It happens particularly in a certain subset of the population (I belong to it, and oddly enough I have to put a lot of effort into persuading people I am not called). The problem is such people can do enormous damage to the ministry. I don't think I would, but I would damage myself pretty badly pretty quickly in trying to do an impossible task that really isn't my deepest passion.

So in a sense you need to let the Bishop see what is behind gaining those competencies. Now this is where being female may actually help, it is more normative for females to talk about these things. It will feel like a breach of privacy for you. Yet if the Bishop is to really make a good judgement he needs to see it. You might like to spend some time talking through why you want to be a priest, with someone like a spiritual director. Not really to clarify things in your mind, but to find/create a language with which you are happy expressing your motivations.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 
I kind of half know where he may be coming from I think?

I needed a faculty which I didn't get - fast forward 12 years and ended up getting one and before I knew it I was off to BAP faster than I could imagine due to several factors I won't bore you with.

I wasn't reccommended - got highly commended on about 6 of the criteria but they felt I was still called to be a Reader (I wasn't and I knew that)

Went back 12 months later and got through no problem - difference was the second time I was very in your face on the paperwork and verbally and in my presentation about vocation and calling and actually to be fair I think I owned it more. I think the first time my priest, my Bishop, DDO etc knew it was there but I was still in shock at getting the faculty. Second time it was mine - to the point I cried in the vocations interview (and I am NOT a person who does that in public)

I think what I am trying to say in a long winded way is that you have to be very overt about your feelings - indeed even a little OTT
 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Bagpuss - thank you so much for that. In a way I think you've just summed up something I've been trying to put into words for quite a while, that need to be overtly passionate about vocational yearning/calling...

I think that at my BAP I probably came over as too quiet and introverted but underneath it all my heart was yearning with passion for it - and still is!

Like you, I had a 'no' and had been advised to go back within 12/18 months but I've put off my return now to co-incide with children's exams...hard in some ways but good in others.

In the meanwhile all sorts of opportunities to break out of my 'quiet' persona have been offered to me and I feel blessed to be where I am now...perhaps sometimes we need to really show that passion to be believed!
 

---

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bagpuss:
I needed a faculty which I didn't get - fast forward 12 years and ended up getting one and

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bagpuss:
I kind of half know where he may be coming from I think?

I needed a faculty which I didn't get - fast forward 12 years and ended up getting one and before I knew it I was off to BAP faster than I could imagine due to several factors I won't bore you with.

I wasn't reccommended - got highly commended on about 6 of the criteria but they felt I was still called to be a Reader (I wasn't and I knew that)

Went back 12 months later and got through no problem - difference was the second time I was very in your face on the paperwork and verbally and in my presentation about vocation and calling and actually to be fair I think I owned it more. I think the first time my priest, my Bishop, DDO etc knew it was there but I was still in shock at getting the faculty. Second time it was mine - to the point I cried in the vocations interview (and I am NOT a person who does that in public)

I think what I am trying to say in a long winded way is that you have to be very overt about your feelings - indeed even a little OTT

---

It's true there's no point leaving the selectors guessing what your feelings are about being an ordained minister. Those have to be articulated clearly.

OTOH, many people are skilled at sounding like the 'right' person, when they're not necessarily the right person. I think selectors must have a very tough job really; because they have to sort out what they hear, from what they have discerned about that person.

The onus is also on them, to a large extent, to be skilful enough to interview the candidate so as to get a true picture of that person's heart and faith; rather than simply to elicit the 'right' answers.

But as even selectors are human ( ) there are times when candidate do need to be quite explicit and unambiguous about why they think they ought to be recommended for training.
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Bumping this again...
Am becomingly increasingly dissatisfied by the mega-church's non-Eucharistic services. I know this says a lot about me and the differences in churchmanship, but I find the services pretty pointless. The church leaders seem to be getting round the canon law about celebrating the eucharist at least once per Sunday in the same way that the don't bother with any eucharistic vestments (unless you count a clerical shirt) and I wonder why they want to call themselves Anglican. They don't operate any particularly parish-specific work that I can see, they have a gathered congregation from all over the county. It's an interesting experience but coupled with a potential ordinands' meeting where the discussion was pretty much taken over by men from an evangelical background, I am missing the breadth of the C of E. Have spoken to DDO about this as I found it rather discouraging, and he was very helpful.
I am currently looking at the first three criteria for selection for my next discussion with the DDO.
Prayers for all others on the discernment road, especially matthew_dixon

[ 26. September 2011, 18:59: Message edited by: Laxton's Superba ]
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bagpuss:
I needed a faculty which I didn't get - fast forward 12 years and ended up getting one and

---

That's interesting. I was under the impression that one could only apply for the faculty once and, if it were turned down, that was it. Slightly less scary now, perhaps.

Thurible

---

I was in the wrong place at the wrong time when I applied for my first faculty. Bishop was about to retire and was putting his foot down about how many divorcees were going through.

I just got told you know where the vocations adviser is afterwards and no mention was ever made of whether that was it etc.

When I asked the DDO many years later - new DDO, new bishop, me in new parish etc he hadn't got a clue if you could reapply or not. Obviously I could - I think it was down to the fact that it was a new bishop, also that several years had passed and by then I had been marreid to second husband for 18 years (first husband for less than 2!) so they kind of had to acknowledge he wasn't just a passing fancy lol

What do you mean by slightly less scary now? Is that place you're in then?
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Mrs Thurible was briefly married before she was baptised and so I would need to apply for a faculty, yes. The DDO has made it out to be the most heinous process and one that can only be gone through once (so, in the unlikely event that a faculty wasn't granted, that would be that).

Thurible
 

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Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
'faculty'??? Please explain for the few of us who are non-Anglicans. The way it's being used is not the way that suggests academia-type faculty, so what is it you're all on about?

Yours,
puzzled in Presbyland
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
This Australian Anglican doesn't know what a faculty is either...
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
Depending on circumstances 'faculty' is basically authoritative permission to do something.

Eg, divorced ordinands - or ordinands married to divorcees - usually need a 'faculty' from the Archbishop of their province to become an ordained minister. Whether it's granted or not, I suppose, is down to what the circs are.

As yet, I haven't come across anyone, that I know of, in this position who's been denied one, though I'm sure it must have happened. It seems from what Thurible's experience is some dioceses must make a bigger deal of it than others.

Within parish life a faculty is permission to the Parochial Church Council, from the Diocesan Advisory Council/Chancellor, to put pews in/take pews out, erect a notice board, re-order a church's furniture, re-tar the car-park, put toilets in, remove an ancient chalice from use, sneeze loudly etc etc etc etc etc.

It is truly the mother of all 'F' words.
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
Should anyone who is divorced or married to someone who was divorced feel a call to the ordained ministry in the Church of England, then a Bishops Repressentative ( each diocese has one) is required to interview the prospective candidate.

To say that this chat is intrusive...would be seriously underplaying the scope of the discussion. It all centres round a form ( Canon 4) and the questions that are to be answered.
In addition, other people are contacted to verify the facts given.

(imho, prayer should be offered afterwards, it's a damnable process)

It's loosly termed 'having to get a faculty' in the UK and not to be confused with the faculty process required to do repairs on our church buildings.

My understanding of this process for divorced people, is that it's to ensure that the church is not caught up in any potential scandal further down the track. For the minister, or for the church as a whole.

A clever person than I can maybe find and link the helpful place then we can all read about this fascinating part of our vocation process.

( emotive much~ yup)
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 
What they all said!

I went through 2 processes - the frst one was hell on earth - interrogation by priest I had never met who insisted he could only see us on our wedding anniversary (tactful or what!) references not taken up etc etc - basically it was a pastoral car crash - the Bishop (I have now) thought about showing me the follow up letter but decided against it - thank God for his pastoral sensitivity.

The second experience was fantastic,very sensitively done, amazing priest, Bishop was fab and I would even say he bent over backwards to make sure I got my C4. He advised sacrament of reconciliation afterwards and he was right - it was definitley needed and if I am being truthful was the fnal part of the healing process from the mess that the first process had made.

I love my Bishop
 

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Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
As all above have said. What is more once you have a Faculty all future paperwork for the C of E asks you to say whether you have been granted one or not - so each church you go to knows your situation.
My own was dealt with sensitively by the interviewer but the follow up had problems- now thankfully blurring into obscurity!
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Some stats on vocations in the CofE if any of you poms are interested:

quote:

---

Ordination candidates

Another 515 candidates were accepted to train as future clergy in 2010, with those aged 20-29 showing a 45 per cent increase from 74 to 108. In total, 563 new clergy were ordained in 2010. Of those, 284 were entering full-time paid ministry.

Revd Preb Lynda Barley, Head of Research & Statistics for the Archbishops' Council, comments: "It is encouraging that the Church is responding confidently to the challenge that the changing age profile of our nation brings, with one in five future clergy entering training being under 30 years of age."

While the numbers of people being training for ordination remained buoyant across 2009, the number of retirements also remained high. Taking retirements and other losses into account, there was a net loss of 129 full-time paid clergy. The total number of licensed clergy (including part-time and self supporting ministers whose numbers increased) was down by 72.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by harmony hope:
Bagpuss - thank you so much for that. In a way I think you've just summed up something I've been trying to put into words for quite a while, that need to be overtly passionate about vocational yearning/calling...

I think that at my BAP I probably came over as too quiet and introverted but underneath it all my heart was yearning with passion for it - and still is!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laxton's Superba:
Would anyone like to share their experiences or opinions on training part-time on a regional course rather than full-time at a college? Thanks.

---

At my college it is the same course whether you do part time or full time. The downside of training part time is that I have to be very organised to get just the right books out of the library and if I don't then it is another week before I can have another go. If I get a problem in essay writing I can't just ask the tutor or a fellow student over dinner. However the pluses outweight the negatives for me and that is mostly becuase I have teenage children who didn't have to move schools. I loathed moving schools as a child and if I can save them one move that is a plus.

The other plus is that you get to practice some of the stuff they teach you outside of college on your work collegeues. This week I've used conflict transformation and cross cultural listening on the computer dept at work. More material for theolgoical reflection

I suspect a lot of full time v part time comes down to personality and how you take to living in community. I thought I would love being in college as I'm an extrovert but found that the week I lived in for a course I was on there was no one to talk to as the place seemed full of introverts who disappeared off to their rooms as soon as classes finished. But then the intake changes and I saw a serious card school in the bar so there might be more singles or more weekly boarders who don't have to rush off and feed the kids or do the music centre run at the end of the day.

Don't know if that helps at all.

[ 15. October 2011, 12:36: Message edited by: Poppy ]
 

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Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
I have just started training residentially (weekly boarder) but have several friends who have completed or are at various places in non residential training.
They have all reduced their working hours (the ideal for them seems to be working a maximum of 3 days per week) because the pressure of work from the course is so great. They chose this form of training generally because of family commitments (children and/or husbands). In some ways non-residential training seems to be more like the reality of parish life as a curate; it may be coincidence but the best curate my church has had (in 20+ years) trained on a regional course.
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
hmm..... yes it is the prospect of school moving that concerns me. I would love the college formation but not at the expense of the small folk. Part-time paid work and part-time study would fit the bill best, but there are pros and cons both sides. Is the decision up to you completely, or does the DDO have a say?
 

---

Posted by 3rdFooter (# 9751) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laxton's Superba:
Would anyone like to share their experiences or opinions on training part-time on a regional course rather than full-time at a college? Thanks.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by aig:

They have all reduced their working hours (the ideal for them seems to be working a maximum of 3 days per week) because the pressure of work from the course is so great.

---

Not sure whether to laugh or cry at the above!



I am in my last year of a part time local course.I am a teacher and head of department and second in faculty, in a subject that has a very heavy marking workload. I also have 2 teenage children.

However, I did my BA and MA both by distance learning and am mega organised so have managed pretty much OK. I tned to do my essays before the tutorials and then tweak them after I have had the sessions on them - has always worked for me so far!

I think there are pros and cons to both forms of training. I yearn to do more 'proper' theology - decent in depth Bible study of lots of books rather than bits here and there. But after a week's summer school I think I would be excommunicated for murder if I had to live in

I like how we are all from very different traditions and the obvious arguments that arise because of that. We also get some top class speakers on our residential weekends that the colleges wouldn't necessarily get.
 

---

Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
Formation will be different rather than less important. You would have three years blending ministry development, a mixed prayer life and the real world.

Worked for me.

---

I think this is very important. Formation happens on part time course, not just in college. I'm informed that it also happens to OLMs who are training in parishes! I suspect that the constant juggling of work, study, family, prayer, worship, sabbath etc is good preparation for life in a parish. But each type of training has its own strengths and weaknesses and if you have family commitments then it is a case of what is possible rather than what might be ideal for you as an individual.

Being part time forces you to learn to be organised and pace yourself as there are so many other calls on your time such as shopping and cooking and all the stuff of life that college takes care of if you live in. On my course there are all types of work patterns from retired or not in paid work to full time jobs where college work is either done on trains or late at night after everyone else has gone to bed. I do 20 hours which is working well for me.

You get to be very good at independent study on a part time course as there is no one else but you to motivate you or help out when it goes a bit pear shaped. So if that is going to be a problem it might be worth thinking that through and getting some input on study skills before you attempt part time learning - or it might be right up your street - I never attended any lectures at uni and did it all off reading lists and tutorials so this style of learning works for me.
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Thanks everyone.
I like the idea of the OLM training but I don't see there is any chance of that in my parish/diocese. I would like to be able to train on-the-job in the same way that one can as a teacher with the GTP scheme, with of course some college stuff too. I see that some colleges do mixed mode training so that is worth looking into as well.
 

---

Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Can a kindly host or more technologically-minded Shippie post a link to the previous vocations thread please - I have tried and failed to find it using the search function and in Limbo.
thanks
 

---

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
'Ere it be!

No, no, don't thank me, just throw money!
 

---

Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
thanks Wodders
 

---

Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
Thanks WW
I really enjoyed reading the thread and remembering the journey I took alongside so many who seem to have disappeared from here now.
Jante
(Wondering if I've worked out who QUpe is here at Holy Hogwarts!!!)
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
We did a session on Anglican Spirituality a few weeks ago and this quote was given to us. It's a quote by Monica Furlong (English Journalist 1930-2003).

quote:

---

I am clear about what I want from the clergy.

I want them to be people who can, by their own happiness and contentment, challenge my ideas about status, about success, about money, and so teach me to live more independently of such drugs.

I want them to be people who can dare, as I do not dare, to refuse to work flat out (since work is an even more subtle drug than status), to refuse to compete with me in strenuousness.

I want them to be people who are secure enough in the value of what they are doing to have time to read, to sit and think, and who can face the emptiness and possible depression which often attack people when they do not keep the surface of their mind occupied.

I want them to be people who have faced this kind of loneliness and discovered how fruitful it is, as I want them to be people who have faced he problems of prayer.

I want them to be people who can sit still without feeling guilty, and from whom I can learn some kind of tranquility in a society which has almost lost the art.

Much of what the clergy were once esteemed to be has been stripped away, and with it much that encourages self-deception.

Like Christ, if he is brave enough, the priest is now free to offer the best gift of all – himself. Without any certainty that it is going to be understood or appreciated, he goes out to other people, able only to offer his relationship with God, his longing to help, to love and to heal. He is prepared to be vulnerable, to make a fool of himself, in a way that only a Christian will attempt.

(Monica Furlong – addressing the clergy of Wakefield Diocese at Swanwick in 1966)

---

What do yous reckon?
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Some excellent comments on models of ministry by the Archbishop of Canterbury here.

It's an excerpt from a recent speech on women's ministry but it applies to all clergy.
 

---

Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
I'm going through the criteria for selecion at the moment and I am coming to grief with the ones on mission. Being a leftie liberal pluralist I haven't really got much to say about converting the masses and I certainly can't think of anything I have ever done that "counts" as evangelism in the strictest sense.

Now I appreciate that not everyone will share my reluctance to knock on doors with a Bible, run Alpha groups for my not-yet-Christian friends and so on, but how do I approach the mission criteria in a way that is sensitive to the intent of making God known?

I have been looking at the five marks of mission and am relieved to see that converting people is only one way in which mission is defined. But I do have a basic reluctance to "share the good news" in an active way. My preference is the Frances of Assisi misquote about preaching the gospel always, use words if necessary kind of thing.

Would anyone like to share how the mission criteria were dealt with at their BAP?
 

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Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
Is there anything a bit 'fresh expressions' going on in your parish? I spent 18 months attending a 8.20am children friendly Taize eucharist which fitted the nurturing new believers bit. I also led a couple of bible study groups. What about eco friendly stuff - that is also a valid indicator of mission.
Why not have a look at the five marks of mission and then be creative? 'To respond to human need by loving service' can fit most work situations and as a 'a leftie liberal pluralist' you can be eloquent about seeking 'to transform unjust structures of society'. Enjoy....
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
Just got back from Bap and more exhausted than I hae been for a while! I think they are going to say no, fairly sure of it actually. Think I'm ok with it, but would really appreciate prayers as I wait.
 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Jenn- prayers for you as you wait...
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 
Jen
I recognise both of those feelings/emotions.

All I can say is that it worked out for me second time and looking back I know it was the time that was wrong not me.

Prayers for wherever this stage leads you xx
 

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Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
Jenn - prayers for the waiting

However don't be too sure about the result; a friend of mine came away from her BAP certain she was going to get a 'no' and got a qualified 'yes'.
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Jenn.
 

---

Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Bagpuss - can I pm you please about your journey?
 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Sorry - that was meant to read 'please can I pm you'... not thinking!
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Jenn

What makes you think it will be a no?
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
Just realised how far short I fall in so many areas. Maybe it's the timing. I don't know. I'm trying to be realistic as lots of people have told me I'm being overly negative. It's wait and see time really.
 

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Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
Jenn the waiting rime is by far the hardest.
as you wait
 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Jenn - please don't think you "fall short" in any way!
 

---

Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by harmony hope:
Bagpuss - can I pm you please about your journey?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:


Monica Furlong quote from Swanwick conference. (see above)


What do yous reckon?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:


Monica Furlong quote from Swanwick conference. (see above)


What do yous reckon?

---

Wow. That's an amazing quote. Worth reflecting on. Thanks for posting it.

---

I was surprised by the date. I expected it to be more recent than 1966. Not sure many clergy are there on the not working flat out bit!

Prayers on the waiting Jenn.

Carys
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
I am shamlessly going to steal that Monica Furlong and send it to my DDO, whom I am seeing tomorrow. And I am bumping this thread before it falls off the bottom of the page.

DDO thinks I am too cynical and need to button that a bit, fair enough. We have previously discussed "Rev" and the "If you see George Herbert on the road kill him" book as being required viewing/reading for potential ordinands, so it's hardly surprising that cynicism plays a bit part in my outlook!!!

Any news Jenn?
 

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Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Laxton--Tell the DDO you're skeptical, not cynical. Which would be true. You wouldn't be offering yourself if you were a cynic. Your skepticism is part of your truth-seeking, and it is a gift. Tell him I said so.

ISN'T that quote from Monica Furlong superb!! And daring. (MF was a good friend of a friend of mine, who told the story of how once, when she was visiting his house in Boston, she decided to clear out his cupboards, and wound up putting a large canister of Metamucil down the garbage disposal in the kitchen sink. When the water was run, it began to swell...)
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Aw shucks... thanks Amos, that is indeed how I feel. And I think the DDO can see that, he just thinks I will need to tone it down a bit for the Bishop, who might not see things the same way.
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
They said YES!

I haven't seen the bishop to get my report yet, but the ddo tells me he always goes with the recommendation, and we told the church this morning (they hadn't known I was going forward!)

Seeing the bishop tomorrow. So excited!
 

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Posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis (# 3886) on :
 
Congrats Jenn!
 

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Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
Wonderful news Jenn

 

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Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
I'm not seen round these parts much anymore but I just had to say:

Congratulations Jenn!


 

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Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
Congratulations Jenn!

Do you know where you will train?
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
I haven't decided yet - need to go and look at places and see how it works with husband/kids.
 

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Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :
 
Congratulations, Jenn.
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
Congratulations from me, too.
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Congrats Jenn.
 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Well done Jenn!
 

---

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
shall be praying as you see the Bishop

how exciting

[ 14. November 2011, 07:44: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
What lovely news Jenn. Well done. The meek shall inherit the earth!!!
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
I've seen the bishop and received my report. It's very humbling to hear what other people think of you. Thanks for the support over the past few months/years and the congrats since. You guys are fab!
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 
Fantastic news Jenn xx
 

---

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
So pleased Jenn! God be praised!
 

---

Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Just bumping this before it falls off the first page.

Jenn, have you had any feedback from the BAP, and/or thoughts about training?
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
I received my report from the bishop on monday, which was very helpful in knowing where they noticed weaknesses and strengths. Very humbling. I'm looking at residential training, so will be visiting a couple of places in the coming months.

I've been contacted by a couple of people who were on bap with me and found out what happened to them. It's very odd. you spend 3 intense days with people but all you see that they are actually assessed on it the presentation/discussion = 1 morning. The decisions I know of weren't all what I had expected - keep having to remind myself how little i know!
 

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Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
Looking at colleges is exciting!
Are you willing to divulge which ones or will we have to guess if it is you when candidates visit?
 

---

Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
probably nottingham and bristol based on ddo's advice.
 

---

Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
I don't know much about either of these colleges so had a look at their websites. I then looked at some other college websites. I came to the conclusion that some are much better than others in terms of giving accurate information for ordinands. I have a clear favourite - does anyone else have an opinion on this?
 

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Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
I looked at 4 colleges when trying to discern which I was most suited to. I foudn all their websites fairly accurate but it was the visit and the strong sense of rightness then that I went with. Oh and my Bishops reccomendation!
 

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Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
It's taken me ages to pluck up the courage to post on this thread!

I'm stuck in the discernment process -- not because of my doubts but because it just seems to have taken so long! It's six months now and I have yet to see the DDO (have seen a vocations adviser 3 times).

I keep telling myself that it's God's time, not my time, but I feel so stuck -- I can't move forward or backwards, and I'm not even officially in the selection process.

What were other people's experiences of this part of discernment/selection? Is it normal to take so long? I feel a bit, how long, O Lord, at the moment.
 

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Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :
 
It took me several years to go to an advisory panel. It seemed like forever at the time, but with the wisdom of hindsight it was the right length of time.
 

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Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
You probably won't want to hear this but my journey from first approaching my Vicar to going for BAP was 6years and I know mine wasn't the longest journey. the discernment process is a long one but with reason and though it seems like you are in limbo, the very rpocess changes you and helps prepare you for the future.

If you want to chat in more dpeth about the process PM me.
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by aig:
I don't know much about either of these colleges so had a look at their websites. I then looked at some other college websites. I came to the conclusion that some are much better than others in terms of giving accurate information for ordinands. I have a clear favourite - does anyone else have an opinion on this?

---

I didn't go to either of these colleges - but first time round at selection, I checked them out. I liked them both - but St John's had the edge for me, definitely. I had a great interview with the Principal and VP (they're different now, of course) and I liked the amenities and what I could see of the worship life. I hear good reports of it still and believe it has a great reputation.

Which I'm sure Bristol does, too! But at the time, I would've plumped for St John's.

I ended up somewhere different because when I next approached selection, things had moved on for me and Queen's in Birmingham was much more the place for me to be.
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
hello Niminypiminy .....from someone else sitting and admiring the view from discernment mountain

It does get a tad difficult after a while doesn't it?

Finding out what each step of the process was actually for....and why each specific delay was in place ... helped. It involved a bit of digging around, but there is lots of information out there... in the public domain.
 

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Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
<waves from neighbouring peak>

I've done a bit of reading about the process, and I'll try and dig around a bit more. But why does it have to be so, if not exactly opaque, then translucent?

I think it's the sense of stuckness that is getting to me. I know time has to pass, but it is the feeling that I can't make plans into the future that is starting to become hard. My work want me to commit to organising things and teaching courses for the next couple of years, and it feels like, I don't know, I'm performing a commitment to be there that I don't entirely have.

It's good to know, though, that in retrospect the process did take the its own time, and that it wasn't too long.
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
I hated the pauses in the process. Once I got to the ddo things started to make more sense. He set out a vague timetable for me (if all goes well you'll be looking at college in 20xx) and that really helped. I got very frustrated when I had to take a break to have my son, but at least there was a proper reason for that. Prayers as you wait

 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
A would be cleric wonders why a system of discernment run by clergy is about as clear as mud.

Well when the Good Lord takes it into his head to call a few more people to the ministry who are gifted with:

1. adminstrative skills
2. the realisation that not everything runs on church time
3. an ability to communicate in clear English

quote:

---

Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
<waves from neighbouring peak>

I've done a bit of reading about the process, and I'll try and dig around a bit more. But why does it have to be so, if not exactly opaque, then translucent?

I think it's the sense of stuckness that is getting to me. I know time has to pass, but it is the feeling that I can't make plans into the future that is starting to become hard.

---

I'm sorry. But on the bright side (yeah, right!) this is very much what it is like when you're out there doing ministry. A sense of being stuck with regard to one (or two, or three) situations, a frustration because you have NO idea what is supposed to happen next or how to make it happen, and a sense that if you plan for the future, you're basically dreaming, because life is bound to take a sharp left turn any minute now.

You get used to it.

If you're perverted enough, you may even get to liking it, once you give up trying to control your environment and just ride the wave you're on as best you can with the help of God. But it's darn hard.
 

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Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
Our [CofS] system is very different, and a little more straightforward, it would seem.

Go to Enquiry Conference, c. April-May-June.
If you decide to go for Ministry of Word and Sac., apply to be put on Enquiry placement, starting October.
A month to decide whether it's the right thing or not.
If not, withdraw, if yes, continue placement on assessed basis until May when you have Local Review: an hour with a national assessor, someone from presbytery, your assessing placement minister, and a rep. from Ministries Council.
If they say no, it depends on the kind of no as to whether or not you can try again - you get 3 attempts [no, we're not quite sure - there might be a call and we need more time to see evidence of this... come back after a year/ or - no, really, just nooooo].
If it's a yes, that yes is an agreement to let you proceed to the Assessment Conference c.May-June: afternoon/overnight/leave after lunch next day - full of interviews, psych tests, team work exercises, etc.
Having gone through the Assessment Conf. again the possibility of several types of 'no'.
But, if you get a yes, you can then proceed to training... off to University for the B.D. in Sept. and further placements and conferences.
Basically, it's possible to go through our discernment process and have your answer in c. 15 months. And you see anything and everything that has been written about you. And you get a written timetable - so you know when you need to do things/ when stuff is going to happen. No surprises, no cats out of bags.

What I found most helpful when in discernment process: I loved the practical placement - gave me a sort of on the job insight into what it might be like to do this minister thang, with a wise minister/ mentor who met with me fortnightly for supervision. Fab.

This is in no way a 'ours is better'n yours' post... it's just feeding another denominational process into the thread.
 

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Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
Thank you to all for your wise and encouraging words. I am sure that Jengie Jon is absolutely right about being a DDO, and her post made me see a slightly nightmarish alternative-world church full of people who love doing admin. (Mind you, I speak as an admin hater.)

I guess the only thing to do is to be in the stuck moment and to see the waiting as a kind of spiritual discipline, and to trust that, however frustrating and labyrinthine it feels, God is here too.
 

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Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
I guess the only thing to do is to be in the stuck moment and to see the waiting as a kind of spiritual discipline, and to trust that, however frustrating and labyrinthine it feels, God is here too.

If you can see it that way you are well on your way!!!!

Nobody goes into the ministry thinking I want to be a DDO or similar. It is a role they end up with, and while they may really enjoy working with those discerning, they normally don't enjoy dealing with the admin and are therefore unlikely to take on the extra that would keep everyone in the loop.

Maybe I'm weird, or maybe its because I think I learned so much from my own discernemnt process but I would actually like to be involved as a DDO or Vocational advisor sometime in the future!

Jante

[ 29. November 2011, 11:40: Message edited by: Jante ]
 

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Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Niminypiminy--I've pm'd you.

Jante--I'm amused by your location. When I was there we just called it 'Hogwarts.' With no added 'Holy.'
 

---

Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
Amos, not sure when they added the Holy but it was called that when I arrived!

 

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Posted by matthew_dixon (# 12278) on :
 
Just realised I've not posted in here recently. Things have just suddenly gone SO fast that I've been struggling to tell those who needed to know - and only once I'd done that was I prepared to announce it to "the world" so to speak on the internet.

Anyway, yes, I've got a diocesan selection panel meeting in a couple of hours (yes I know that makes it 8:30pm!)

I think I'm in a far more mature place than I was first time I went to one - 2.5 years ago - so it's really a case of making sure they can clearly see where God is calling me to, and seeing if they think it's the same place that I think it is.
 

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Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
for you, Matthew
 

---

Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Matthew! I was wondering how things were going for you. Hope the panel meeting goes well, and look forward to hearing about how things have progressed for you.
 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
May God go with you Matthew.
 

---

Posted by matthew_dixon (# 12278) on :
 
Last time I went to a board, I came out thinking "That went okay, they're bound to say yes"... and they said no.

This time I've left the board meeting thinking that I didn't do well at all! Now potentially part of that is that I've got more awareness now of what is needed, but basically pretty much nothing I'd been preparing for came up, and they seemed to focus very heavily on some of the leadership aspects of the role and questions on the theme of "How would you deal with someone when you'd made a decision that they didn't agree with?"

So, either I'm far more right for it than previously because I'm actually aware of my shortcomings and was expecting a higher standard from myself than previous... or it is what it is on face value which is probably not a great result.

Should find out in a couple of days.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Hope all goes well with you, Matthew.
You definitely have something to offer the church - hope the understanding of what, and when, and where, gets worked out to your - and their - satisfaction.
 

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Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :
 
Prayers for you, Matthew. You can never really prepare in advance for these things, so try not to worry about that. Let us know.
 

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Posted by matthew_dixon (# 12278) on :
 
Well, the decision went as expected - a no. However what I didn't expect was the reason.

I was expecting either of two reasons:

1) I messed up the interview - which would have been really really frustrating.

2) I failed to show a clear ability in the leadership criteria - which is something I am sure I could develop.

What they actually said, and this was a universal opinion across the board, was that they were unable to detect an imaginative flair. Now, if someone had told me 5 years ago that I needed an imaginative flair to go forward for selection, I would have been able to tell them that it was something that I didn't have and was unlikely ever to have. Their reason for turning me down was 100% accurate (though I do want to discuss in feedback the reason WHY I was turned down for that reason).

So, it's somewhat of a case of back to the drawing board at present - as it appears I am pretty much there with all of the other things needed, I just really really don't have much imagination at all!
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Oh Matthew..... well, that's a bit of a strange reason. I hope that you are managing it and I'm sure other opportunities will be just around the corner.
for you
 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Thinking of you Matthew.
 

---

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
(Without going into too many details quite why:) Oh what I would give for a curate at our place without imaginative flair....
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Stuff'em, Matthew. They do seem make bit of a habit of moving the goalposts.

As you know, a few years ago I went through the same experience (indeed, at the same board as your previous presentation) and was also turned down for reasons which I thought were accurate but whose relevance I doubted. I was furious about it for about a day, and then woke up on the next day but one and thought:
'(i) I don't have to endure a provincial selection conference;
(ii)I don't have to spend two or three years with some of those drippy types who you encounter at theological colleges; and
(iii)I don't have to go and be a curate in Merthyr.
(iv) Looking at it like that, what's not to like?'

I've never looked back!

[ 03. December 2011, 20:33: Message edited by: Albertus ]
 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Matthew - I think that to put yourself forward for selection is tremendously brave and hope that you are okay.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Popping in to say I've been a priest 24 years today. Sometimes I think the selectors (twice) made a Very Bad Mistake™. But it was a mistake in the orbit of God, so I'll blunder along - and mostly I think it's a blessed life: certainly a privileged one.
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
Zappa,
casting your mind back twenty four years, are you able to say what it was that tipped you over into Doing Something About going forward for ordination?

Was it arm up the back and frog marched to theological college? Your wonderings? Others suggestions?

Just interested to see how folk get to where they are ....and part of this process for us is listening to others story.

If you didn't mind?
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
It seemed to make sense of my life and gifts. I was Uni at the time, third year, and lots of people had been telling me for a couple of years or more that's what I should do - I had been (loosely) planning to be a secondary school teacher.

So I began the exploratory process ... one step at a time, interview after interview. Eventually I was accepted by the bishop, though I later resigned and started all over again when I moved to Australia.
 

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Posted by Macrina (# 8807) on :
 
So today I managed a very awkward request to my Vicar to arrange a conversation to talk about life the universe and everything.

This is a big step. Thinking of y'all else making big steps.
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Good luck to you Macrina.

I've just finished my first year of formation. I'm knackered.

Yet I was told three or four days ago I have to prepare an exegesis on Mark 1:1-8 and will be questioned on it.

*sigh*.

Got two days to do it.

*double sigh*

I hate interviews.
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
Macrina....that first step is the worst one. All better once That one is out of the way.

Will be prayin'............
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
Planning a visit to Cranmer - any shippies there?
 

---

Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
Well done Macrina. That's a hard thing to do.
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
I've got 2 appointments with diocesan vocations assessors lined up for the first week of January.
If they like the cut of my jib, I'm off to the Bishop and then to a BAP. 18 months on the path so far.....
 

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Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
I hope all goes well with the meetings.

If it does - when will you go to a BAP?
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Gosh, I don't know. I would rather get it over with ASAP but certainly before the cut-off for starting training this September, which is the end of May I believe. Can't imagine myself BAP-ing!!!
 

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Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
Once you get to the stage of your Bishop agreeing to sponsor you - the process speeds up unbelievably. Blink and you will have started training!
That is why I deferred.....
 

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Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :
 
And once you have started training it is only a few short moments until it is time to find a curacy.....

I think I went public on an earlier incarnation of this thread about going to a BAP back 2008. My time at college has flown by and now after some months of uncertainty I have been offered a title post . 2012 will be full of packing up a house we have lived in for 20 years to move to the curate's house

Time flies but the wait from BAP to letter from the diocese felt like years. Odd that.
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Congrats Poppy. Hope it goes well.
 

---

Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
For all those who this year feel the Holy spirit prodding, poking or driving them to ordained ministry.
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
SCM Press are having a twenty percent off sale for any students in the house.

I've always found them really good.
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Howz this for a vocational explanation?:

quote:

---

"I am the first generation of people for whom Christianity is a form of rebellion."

He presses on: "I still find it extraordinary that this is what I do. There is always a degree of puzzle about it. And yet it is utterly right.

It is part of what I am and feel I have to be. The puzzle is how to explain my conviction.

It is like falling in love. The night before I got married, my brother sat me down in a curry house in Ripon and asked me to give him all the reasons why this was the right thing to do and write them on a napkin…" This was a preposterous request because "commitment exceeds your capacity to explain it".

---

Rev Giles Fraser
 

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Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
Hello vocational people!

Hope you're all doing well on your different paths.

I have come to a bit of a 'Hmmm. What the ...?' moment in mine so I'm hoping that someone wise might advise me!

If I feel (as I do) that I should offer for ordained ministry, do I go for Stipendiary or do I stick with the day job and go for NSM?

Obviously I'm not asking for an answer - just your ideas on how you went about deciphering your vocation. I'm lost! With no map!!

[ 12. January 2012, 21:21: Message edited by: Masha ]
 

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Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
Hello *Masha*. I'm lost in the same part of the country, and it's foggy here as well as mapless.

I think the only thing one can do is go on into the uncertainty and pray that bit by bit it will become clear what your path is and where it is going.



 

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Posted by Arch Anglo Catholic (# 15181) on :
 
The decision on whether to be NSM/MSE or stipendiary is certainly a challenge. At the moment, I'm distinctly on the first track as the way in which my 'formation' has taken place, and the pointers toward vocation have been very much in that direction and in the place in which I now live.
That's not to say that things might not change! The Holy Spirit does very strange things, to be sure.

May I suggest that you look at what has driven you to this point in your journey, and to ask some searching questions?

Is the desire to be an NSM our of fear of change, comfort in your present position and security, or is it because you feel drawn to this place, time and people?
It's really difficult to be honest with yourself, I know, but worthwhile!

Try talking to other friends who have some understanding of your vocation, your incumbent perhaps too, and get a sense for where they see you too.

God doesn't leave us out on a limb, the signs are there for us but His voice is gentle in comparison with our noise and clutter.
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
What good advice AAC.

I have had my 2 vocations assessors interviews and they have both given me the nod to go forward to see the Bishop. Yikes. Now I was talking with my parish priest today and he reckons there is a vast imbalance in the system over numbers of evangelicals selected, with evangelicals making up more than 75% of all those accepted at BAPs. Anyone care to comment?
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
Thinking back to my bap I would guess at >50% of candidates being evangelical of one stripe or another. If that's typcal, then you are likely to get a higher proportion of evangelicals selected I'd guess.

Also I wonder if the mission/evangelism focus is easier to talk about for people with an evangelical background? (n.b. not saying they are better at doing it, just that they might be more used to talking about it!)
 

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Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 
The greater proportion of evangelicals presenting for selection is a no brainer: evangelical parishes on the whole are larger, and have a greater proportion of younger people (mostly male, but some female) who are available to experience God's call on their lives.

Evangelical places: a) usually have a clearly defined sense of mission and b) talk about it, encourage and mentor people to engage in mission.

They also largely have a better attention to the spiritual life and a passion for faith which is pretty much lacking in all but the most fervent of Anglo-Catholic nosebleed high places.

Having said all that - and I realise it's an extremely broad generalisation - there is one other factor to consider. I think sometimes that God is only able to work in hearts that are open to faith... Where faith (and therefore hope and love) is present, there the Spirit is working. What I observe in my diocese, and in the mainline churches generally, is a pessimism about the future, a focus on buildings and maintenance, a focus on anguish and anxiety about "not having any young people/not enough money/not enough people to do things/not having or having to pay a priest etc. Where that spirit is at work, of course the Spirit's not going to raise people up to lead it: it's got enough leaders efficient in the ways of leading it into the ground.

If evangelical and extreme A-C places are keeping the hope alive (and love and faith), then may they know every blessing as God raises up people for ministry.

One thing I hold onto and try to remember is the conclusion I reached that God calls everyone for a reason, sometimes for a specific task. This means that even if I don't think X person should be ordained, God may still be calling them for a particular reason. There are no bars to God's call except those we put up ourselves. God will call out people for ordained (and other forms of) ministry if the people of God are faithful. And sometimes even when they are not.

[ 14. January 2012, 09:02: Message edited by: Nunc Dimittis ]
 

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Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
Nunc Dimittis, may I just take a moment to suggest that you might be wonderful?

Every time I read one of your posts I get something from it; often something to think about.

Thank you!

Also,

Thanks for the advice Arch Anglo Catholic - useful!

NP (can't remember how to spell it, sorry) good to know it's not just me.

[ 14. January 2012, 16:23: Message edited by: Masha ]
 

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Posted by 3rdFooter (# 9751) on :
 
Masha,
This is not a decision you have to rush to much or fix in your head. It is OK at BAP and even as you begin training to tick both boxes. I am not saying you should procrastinate, just let your ministry be formed over time. You will be surprised how things can change.

SSM/NSM is not the easy option. If you think this might be your path, you need to think how ministry and self support are going to work together. When I started training, I was in a job that involved a fair bit of long range travel, which would have been a real challenge. If you know any SSMs in simalar work to yourself, ask them at the workplace ministry that would go alongside your parish ministry.

Happy to PM if you want to ask questions.
 

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Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
ArchAngloCatholic and 3rdFooter thank you from me too for your advice (even though it was Masha who asked for it). Really helpful.

Thinking about the first part of NuncDimittis's wonderful post, I wonder if it is the case that the majority of older ordinands are evangelicals? Or is the youth-orientation of some evangelical (CofE) churches off-putting to those of, ahem, more mature years? (Maybe that's more of a purg topic, I don't know.)
 

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Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :
 
The question about being stipendary or not can be down to economics and practicality. A paid post usually means moving house and if that is not possible becuase of caring responsibilites - elderly parents, children at important stages in their education, spouse's work etc then SSM might be the only option. Alternatively you might have a career or job than enables you to have the flexibilty to combine SSM and paid work and your ministry can enrich both.

I always felt called to full time ministry and decided to train part time as that was one less school move for the children as we didn't have to up sticks to theological college and then move on again two years later.

It might be worth checking with your DDO when he/she expects you to have made these decisions. It was discussed very early in my discernment but I suspect that was partially about exploring whether I was serious about the call and not just a stay at home mum whose last child had gone to school and now fancied doing a bit for the church. I know that much of this discernment process is about being rather than doing but it doesn't hurt to give some serious prayer time to thinking about how would I feel if I did this full time, or juggling with a job, or caring and sit with the feelings that arise to discern where God might be calling you.

[ 15. January 2012, 07:15: Message edited by: Poppy ]
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 
I am training with some people who have switched from SSM to stipendiary part way through training. This involved a couple of extra interviews on the vocation and leadership criteria.

Equally I know stipendaries who have gone SSM house for duty. I think that certainly in my diocese there is a lot more flexibility than there used to be.
 

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Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :
 
Interesting. Here there is no distinction made at selection; you are selected for training for ministry, and that's it. Our bishop has just said that if those who were intending to be NSM want to become stipendiary that's largely fine with him (I expect he'd want a brief chat about it) but the training is supposed to be equivalent.

Suits me - all being well I'll be ordained an NSM deacon in June, but I hope to move to part-time and then full-time as my kids get bigger.
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
That worries me. When I was trained for NSM, the emphasis was on being a priest in the workplace and the selection criteria at BAPs was harder that that for parish ministry.

The 'worker priest' model has been abandoned in favour of filling parish gaps on the cheap and regarding parish priests as chaplains to a churchgoing club.
 

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Posted by Darllenwr (# 14520) on :
 
Equally, one might argue that the role of NSM has had to change in view of the changes in the working environment. As I understand it, the function NSM was seen in the context of the large workplace, such as a motor manufacturer or a shipyard or a colliery, where there would be several hundred people (possibly thousands) employed. Such industries have largely evaporated these days - certainly they have in my part of the world - and the original role of the NSM with them. So, yes, one can see the current role of NSM as being one of getting a priest on the cheap, but that may not be entirely fair on our hierarchy, who are having to perform an increasingly difficult juggling act merely to keep churches open. Faced with the choice between installing an NSM priest-in-charge (house for duty) and seeing a church close for lack of funds, which do you think they are going to choose?
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
This is taken from the URC Manual page on Ministry

quote:

---

There are three models of non-stipendiary ministry


Model I - service in a congregation as part of a team. The pattern is taken from the former eldership of the Churches of Christ and is limited in scope and local in nature


Model II - pastoral charge of a small congregation, or service as part of a team of ministers caring for a group of churches.


Model III- ministers in secular employment. Service set apart to be a focus for mission in the place of work or leisure. It is related to a local church or District Council.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
This is taken from the URC Manual page on Ministry

quote:

---

There are three models of non-stipendiary ministry


Model I - service in a congregation as part of a team. The pattern is taken from the former eldership of the Churches of Christ and is limited in scope and local in nature


Model II - pastoral charge of a small congregation, or service as part of a team of ministers caring for a group of churches.


Model III- ministers in secular employment. Service set apart to be a focus for mission in the place of work or leisure. It is related to a local church or District Council.

---

I think we were before Anglicans or Methodists in Non-Stipendiary Ministry. Therefore my comments on the models here are important. Model I is the oldest, it stems back to 1970s or earlier when we were in discussion with the Church of Christ. This was to cover their category of Elder, who were ordained local people in secular employment with responsibility for worship within the congregation. Their "ministers" were in fact "missioners" and you should only get one if the congregation was struggling. Quite small congregation could have three or four ministers, who would work as a team to provide worship, often with one leading the service of the Word and another the communion (which was weekly in Churches of Christ).

Now about that time Leslie Newbiggin returned to the UK and saw the ability to use this change to create something like the missioners/catechist of the Church of North India. These being basically type III people or the type Leo is talking about.

Type II have come about because of the large number of churches to the relatively small number of ministers (although there are actually fewer members per ministers, there are more churches per minister as church size has got smaller). Early retirement and such has meant that for a number of smaller churches we have been able to provide ministerial cover by a non-stipendiary route.

Jengie

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Panda:

Suits me - all being well I'll be ordained an NSM deacon in June, but I hope to move to part-time and then full-time as my kids get bigger.

---

Snap!
Apart from the big kids bit - mine will be at university and mortgage paid off by the end of my curacy which will hopefully then open wider doors.
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Bumping this up a bit...
How is everyone doing? I am waiting for parish priest to write my reference before I arrange to meet the sponsoring Bishop who will decide if I go to a BAP.
for all of us
 

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Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
Laxton Superba as you look to going to BAP
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Thanks Jante.
Got a date to see the bishop, and a BAP date too. Eeek!
 

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Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :
 
Is this with the intention of starting training in September, if all goes well?
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
yes Panda, part-time on a regional course is the intention. How are you getting on?
 

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Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
On the NSM/Stipendiary front, I know someone from this diocese who trained for NSM because he couldn't train full time* and started out as an NSM and then his apparently secure job went and an ideal stipendiary post came up and he became NSM.

My own vocational discernment has taken an interesting turn in that I'm starting work as a full time permanent verger next month. I think for the short term I'll be focussing on this role and seeing how it fits vocationally. It could be the right thing long term or it could be a stepping stone on the way, answering some of the concerns that have been raised about people skills/being too intellectual.

Carys

*Not sure how this sits with Panda's comment about Wales not making that decision at training, but maybe they've shifted since he started training. Or it may be that I don't know the full reasons for his decision which had a lot to do with finances and logistics I think.
 

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Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :
 
On my referral for a selection conference from the diocesan panel, it said I was a candidate for NSM, and the 'ministry envisioned for candidate was Assistant Priest, Team Member or Team Vicar. When I bridled slightly at this, my DDO said it was standard to put those three if you were starting out as NSM, and they were regarded as a starting-point (after a curacy) rather than as a restriction.

On my conference (in 09) there were no questions about whether I distinguished between NSM and stipendiary in terms of my calling. They were in interested in a call to the priesthood, only.

LS, the end is in sight! One more set of essays (4 x 3000), due in May, two sermons and a lot of forms on reflection to fill in. Question: when does reflection turn into navel-gazing?

[ 17. February 2012, 19:56: Message edited by: Panda ]
 

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Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
I've been sent A Long Form to fill in ....eeeks. Having to put it all down in writing seems so scary. I know this means things are moving on a bit (good) but looking at it makes me get butterflies in my stomach.

Any tips for tackling The Form?
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carys:
On the NSM/Stipendiary front, I know someone from this diocese who trained for NSM because he couldn't train full time* and started out as an NSM and then his apparently secure job went and an ideal stipendiary post came up and he became NSM.

My own vocational discernment has taken an interesting turn in that I'm starting work as a full time permanent verger next month. I think for the short term I'll be focussing on this role and seeing how it fits vocationally. It could be the right thing long term or it could be a stepping stone on the way, answering some of the concerns that have been raised about people skills/being too intellectual.

Carys

*Not sure how this sits with Panda's comment about Wales not making that decision at training, but maybe they've shifted since he started training. Or it may be that I don't know the full reasons for his decision which had a lot to do with finances and logistics I think.

---

They want candidates who have people skills and aren't too intellectual? Oh well, that's Michael Ramsey out of the window, then....Still, what kind of loss is that, when you can instead fill up the ministry with lots of ever-so-nice people who didn't quite make it as primary school teachers .
 

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Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
I've been sent A Long Form to fill in ....eeeks. Having to put it all down in writing seems so scary. I know this means things are moving on a bit (good) but looking at it makes me get butterflies in my stomach.

Any tips for tackling The Form?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
They want candidates who have people skills and aren't too intellectual? Oh well, that's Michael Ramsey out of the window, then....Still, what kind of loss is that, when you can instead fill up the ministry with lots of ever-so-nice people who didn't quite make it as primary school teachers .

---

Sorry, not quite sure what you mean there. I've never had any aspirations to be a primary school teacher. Am I too thick or too clever?
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
I don't think the 'too intellectual' thing need be a problem either. The two youngest Anglican candidates in my college class (23 years old) were both Uni post-grads; one in astro-physics, the other in biochemistry. An older ordinand was a history PhD.
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
off to see the ddoish person

always loathed jumping into swimming pools and this feels much the same

[ 25. February 2012, 20:30: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Good luck Ethne Alba
I'm seeing the sponsoring bishop on Weds....
 

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Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
LS
 

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Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
Good luck Ethne Alba and Laxton's Superba (what a nice rhyme and metre your names have together)


 

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Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
Has anyone experience of doing an exchange with another theological college? I am considering going on a term's exchange to Yale and would be interested in hearing people's thoughts and experiences of exchanges.
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Good to go, from the Bishop.
Eek.
BAP-ing in June at Ely (probably).

Yikes!!!!
 

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Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
Cool! (and scary at the same time)


 

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Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :
 
Excellent news!
 

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Posted by nowsouthwest (# 14600) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by aig:
Has anyone experience of doing an exchange with another theological college? I am considering going on a term's exchange to Yale and would be interested in hearing people's thoughts and experiences of exchanges.

---

I had a spell on exchange at the College of the Transfiguration in South Africa and feel I received more formation there in a different environment and context than the rest of the time in the UK. Go for it!
 

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Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
Thanks Nousouthwest, I probably will go for it!
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Doing BAP forms...... how much paperwork!
It's not easy thinking of people to act as referees. Such a lot of personal information required.
Thinking about the written reflection and presentation too - does anyone have any tips? I've got a vague idea of what I'm going to talk about and I've decided to go for something that I know is slightly out of my comfort zone. Would be grateful for anyone's experiences of BAP presentations.
 

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Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :
 
Bear in mind that the presentation is done when you are fairly stressed and it needs to show that you can do basic presentations and then lead a group discussion afterwards. If you go with something outside your comfort zone will it be outside everyone else's and will they find it hard to discuss it afterwards?
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 
Write your questions down for the post presentation discussion and have an idea of where you want to go with it in the round up.

I did mine on a mixture of prayer and vocation - was highlighting extra things to show I met the vocation criteria as that's the crucial one.
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Thanks Poppy and Bagpuss
My outside-the-comfort-zone thing is mission and evangelism, so it's not too outrageous, but I thought it would be a good way to work through how I feel about a) the difference bewtween the 2 and b) if there should be a difference, IYSWIM. I know it's something my bishop reckons is a deal-breaker for BAPs. Having an idea of where the discussion should go is a great idea, otherwise it has the potential to end in a soggy heap. Lots to think about. Thanks again.
 

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Posted by 3rdFooter (# 9751) on :
 
LS, look for some easy opening discussion questions that everyone would have an opinion on. Once people start talking, the rest will flow.

Keep in mind that the panel are looking for people who participate and contribute to other peoples presentations. Ministry is often about other people and what they think is important.
 

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Posted by *Leon* (# 3377) on :
 
LS: I get the impression that the purpose of the discussion is to demonstrate your skills at speaking and leading discussions, not to demonstrate that you can come up with profound arguments. Remember also that the 'audience' are being marked on making helpful and interesting contributions, so they're actually the easiest audience in the world. As a result, if choosing between 2 subjects, pick the simpler one; that way you can concentrate more on presentation style and less on explaining your argument.
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 
What I also did was make a rough plan of the circle beforehand and then filled in everyone's names where they were sitting.

This helped me to intervene and say things like just a sec Bob I think Betty wanted to say something when I had an over keen person who liked the sound of their own voice a lot and one person who was very timid and liked to think things through. Using names was much easier to direct the discussion.

I also scribbled a few points next to each name so when I was summarising I could say the question we were looking at was x (ready prepared) Bib and Phil were of the same mind that x, y, and Suzie thought z so in conclusion boah boah boah

Hope that makes some sense! It just made me feel more in control and prepared.

As someone said - everyone will be playing nicely as they are on show! Just remember to listen well and to contribute but not dominate in all of the presentations, have an opinion and don't be afraid to challenge something you disagree with.

I scribbled little comments down during the discussion
 

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Posted by Nikon User (# 5940) on :
 
Just as a matter of interest, does DDO stand for Decidedly Dreadfully Obstructive?
 

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Posted by orinocco (# 5083) on :
 
Hi all,
After having been turned down by the DDO about five years ago, I am now rentering the vocation path. Spoke to my parish priest on Monday and she is supportive and we are going to meet after Easter and work out ways I can gain more experience etc. before going to the vocations team.
 

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Posted by Padre Joshua (# 13100) on :
 
I am to be appointed as pastor to a small United Methodist congregation in June. It will be my first appointment since June 2009, although I've been serving as a missionary in northeast Alabama since the fall of that year.

I am elated, because I'm finally getting to answer God's calling on my life. I'm a bit nervous, because I don't want it to end badly like it did last time.

The process will hopefully lead through my undergraduate, to M.Div., and thence to ordination.

May Christ be ever with me.

[ 28. March 2012, 00:21: Message edited by: Padre Joshua ]
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
orinocco and Padre Joshua
 

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Posted by Richard M (# 16447) on :
 
Hello all,

Just thought I'd jump in here and let people know that, after ignoring that nagging feeling that there's something better I should be doing with my life for far too many years, I finally got the courage up to speak to the vicar last year.

I have spent the last 12 months trying to hold down a new job (I left IT and took up teaching) whilst navigating through the discernment process. It has been an interesting time - plenty of action followed by long periods of hearing nothing at all for months on end. My DDO has been great though and has tried to keep me informed whilst juggling all the different jobs she has on the go.

So where am I? I've now filled in every form that you possibly think of and I'm "looking forward" to my BAP in June. <gulp>
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Hello Richard
I am BAP-ing in June, too.
Will pray for you.
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 
Prayers for you both as you prepare for your BAPS
 

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Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
Prayers for both of you.

Meanwhile I have my first appointment with the DDO on Tuesday. Feels like a big deal, and I'm very nervous about it. It's been a long journey to get this far!
 

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Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :
 
I've just made first contact with my diocese to begin to discuss what I think I'm being called to do. Emailed yesterday but no response yet.

I'm in the odd situation of being an Anglican in Scotland on an island with no institutional Episcopal Church presence, and within weeks of moving here the sense of more being expected of me than doing my job grew. I spent a couple of weeks praying so desperately I'd stopped listening, before talking to the Church of Scotland minister (I've been worshipping with the Church of Scotland, which is interesting, but very different from what I'm used to) about it. She has been very supportive, but being the liberal Anglo-Catholic that I am it's pretty clear that my call is going to involve the Episcopal tradition.

I have a strong sense that God has exciting things planned for the church (in the broad sense) here, and He's calling me to help with that. I hope the diocese agree and have ways for it to happen. It was only when I started trying to find out what to do that I realised how much the selection process depends on having the infrastructure of the Episcopal church already in place.

If anyone has any thoughts or advice I'd be eager to here them! I feel like I'm about to get my bike to the top of a very steep hill and I'm not sure how good my brakes are.
 

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Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
Welocme- this is certainly the place to come for support
As you discern what God wants for you.

quote:

---

I've just made first contact with my diocese to begin to discuss what I think I'm being called to do. Emailed yesterday but no response yet

---

One thing I'd say at the start is you will need patience- in all probabilty bucket loads. Some people do go through the whole process of discernement fairly quickly- but its more usual to be at least 18 months and in some cases such as my own is was nearly 7 years from contacting the diocese to going for a selection conference ( BAP) and then on to training. One of the frustrations of the process is slow answers to emails, phone calls etc. ( I realsie as I read this that it may sound as if I'm getting at you and thats not my intention simply a warning about the process!! )
Your's does sound a complicated situation so even more patience may be needed.

[ 10. April 2012, 16:31: Message edited by: Jante ]
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nikon User:
Just as a matter of interest, does DDO stand for Decidedly Dreadfully Obstructive?

---

From what one hears about the dificulty of arranging a meeting with one in some dioceses, it might stand for Diary Doesn't Operate.
 

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Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
Hello all,

I've given in and am off to have a talk with the Vicar.

Then off to make an appointment with the DDO if he agrees.

Good thing though - the chap who'll be my sending bishop (if all goes through) recently told me that he thought it was 'right' that I should try again (I was turned down two and a half years ago).

Wish me luck! Or something...
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Hope it goes well Masha. Those two and a half years have gone fast.
 

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Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
Thanks Laxton's Superba!

Haven't they just.
 

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Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
So pleased to see you here again Masha.
Jante

[ 15. April 2012, 20:03: Message edited by: Jante ]
 

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Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
Thanks Jante!

Is it daft that I'm much more scared this time than I was last time?!
 

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Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
Prayers for you, Masha. I'm not surprised you're more scared second time round. Rejection is so painful, and it's horrible to think it might happen again.
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 
I did it twice - feel free to PM me if you want to chat. It did feel totally different second time around despite knowing the routien of the BAP and my way around the retreat house!
 

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Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
Ooh, thanks Bagpuss. That's helpful! I feel different about it already. I was much more 'sure' last time and much less worried about the role of a priest.

Hmmm. We'll see.

I'm speaking to a wise and lovely chap about it next week. He'll advise well having been a DDO for a decade in his previous role.
 

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Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :
 
That sounds good; it's always wise to get new perspectives on where you are.

Coming up the home strait now... two essays to finish in the next three weeks and I will be finished. Eeep.
 

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Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
Well, that went better than expected.

Wise and lovely chap said that he would commend me to the DDO and support me through the process.

DDO is happy to meet with me.

Here we go again...
 

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Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :
 
Preliminary discussions with the contact person at the diocese went well, I'm going to go and have a chat with the Bishop when I get the opportunity, which if he's free will be the end of next month when I next visit the mainland. Failing that I'll see him when he comes to visit in the summer. Gulp!
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Welcome to the Ship, Arethosemyfeet! There's a thread to welcome new people at the top of the All Saints Board, and a Scottish thread "Irn-Bru Special" too.
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
Oh

Matters just got a tad more formal. Today I appear to have gone one more step along the road ......
 

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Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Oh

Matters just got a tad more formal. Today I appear to have gone one more step along the road ......

---

In a good way?

Sounds potentially good...


 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
it is a good way
and also a blessed relief
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Ok this BAP is lurking. What practical things do I need to think about? What do I need to take and what do I wear? Can I wear jeans or is that too sloppy? Will there be any time to go for a run?

I would welcome any advice. I am planning on driving just in case of emergency with little Laxton although it is a fair way away. I think I would find stressing over train connections more tiring than driving however.

Thanks.
 

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Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :
 
I would wear something slightly more formal than jeans...unless they are very expensive and well-cut jeans, and you dress them up a bit, perhaps with a blazer and good cotton shirts, and heels.

Don't know about the running...I've never run anywhere in my life.

Of course, if you are a bloke (and you may well be, for all I know) then I can't advise.

Where are you BAP-ing?
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
People wore jeans on my BAP. I didn't, I go into slob mode automatically if I wear jeans, so I wore something which felt a little more business-like t put me in the right frame of mind.

You will have time to go for a run if you want to, there are plenty of gaps and it's up to you how you use them. You will have an exercise to do in those gaps, but I still had enough time to go shopping and to sit in the cathedral for a while too.

Take a watch. I didn't, hence the shopping. I normally use my phone, but that wasn't possible.

Take headphones. The walls were paper thin and I would have loved to be able to relax with some music in the evening.

Don't worry if you don't sleep well. The adrenaline WILL get you through. Prepare to crash afterwards though!

If you eat when you are nervous, take snacks. There are loads of drinks available and trays of biscuits appeared at regular intervals but I ate my way through quite a bit of chocolate while writing my exercise and reading rubbishy novels which relaxed me

Mostly though, be you. If you try to be someone else it'll show through. Your ddo has sent YOU to bap, not someone else. Try and enjoy it - you'll meet some lovely people.
 

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Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laxton's Superba:
Ok this BAP is lurking. What practical things do I need to think about? What do I need to take and what do I wear? Can I wear jeans or is that too sloppy? Will there be any time to go for a run?

I would welcome any advice. I am planning on driving just in case of emergency with little Laxton although it is a fair way away. I think I would find stressing over train connections more tiring than driving however.

Thanks.

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Our interview weekend is pretty different, but at the time I applied I was a teacher and I wore three of my nicer teaching outfits -- slacks and button-up shirts. A suit would have felt too business-like to me (no-one who interviewed me was wearing one), but jeans too informal.

I didn't bring any exercise clothes, but should have done: it would have been a good de-stressor.

My advice would be to try to enjoy it, even though you will be nervous. You're not there to sell yourself, but to participate in a discernment process. You get to talk to people about the action of God in your life, and what you feel the Spirit is calling you to. I found that very exciting!
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 
I wore my jeans as did many others and I'll be wearing them when I am ordained too!

Obviously not for 'proper' occasions but at other times they'll be on. Also bought myself a clerical hoodie - that's going on for non uniform days at school and messy church!
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Bagpuss:
Also bought myself a clerical hoodie -

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Never heard of them before but just Googled. Interesting. What does yours say?

I got my first parish placement a few days ago. I'm nervous. I'll be expected to preach. Did I mention I'm nervous?
 

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Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 
Nerves are part of the deal!

My first training rector is a Canon (the Rev'd Canon Dr), and is the sort of woman who is petite, svelt, and who just carries authority - what you might call a "powerful woman" (don't mess with me). I had only ever seen her around at college and was scared of her!

I spent 8 hrs every Friday with her for 18 months, and discovered her to be incredibly compassionate, comfortably ordinary, and in being vulnerable with me she played a key role in some stuff I needed to work through. Her patient teaching and mentoring paid off: if it hadn't been for her I think I would have been lost in my curacy. I would trust her with my life (one of three people in the world).

I hope you are able to get something similar out of your parish placement.
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Thanks for sharing that Nunc.

My boss told me he chose this placement for me because the priest is an excellent supervisor.
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

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Originally posted by Bagpuss:
Also bought myself a clerical hoodie -

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Never heard of them before but just Googled. Interesting. What does yours say?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Laxton's Superba:
Ok this BAP is lurking. What practical things do I need to think about? What do I need to take and what do I wear? Can I wear jeans or is that too sloppy? Will there be any time to go for a run?

I would welcome any advice. I am planning on driving just in case of emergency with little Laxton although it is a fair way away. I think I would find stressing over train connections more tiring than driving however. Thanks.

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Oh my. This takes me back. When I went to ABM (this was before BAP) an experienced friend (she'd been a selector) gave me advice about what to wear: 'Dress conservatively. Wear a skirt. No dangly earrings--too Jewish. No heels. And no lipstick. Certainly no jeans.' I showed up in a longish grey skirt and cardigan with, as directed, no earrings or lipstick. Everybody else was in jeans, and one of the selectors had silver earrings dangling to her shoulders. 'Are you Amish?' one of the other candidates whispered.

Don't wear anything you're uncomfortable in. Smart casual is good. Not too formal. Whatever you wear, at least one person will be wearing something completely different. Treat yourself to a new toothbrush, and have your hair done.
And whatever you do, when the other candidates go to the pub in the evening, go with them. This was the most useful piece of advice I ever received from my DDO.

Edited to add: You MAY be able to find time to fit in a run. Very early in the morning. You're unlikely to find time to read.

[ 14. May 2012, 05:40: Message edited by: Amos ]
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Thank you all for your advice especially sartorial! I don't really DO smart, so it will be jeans, but not tatty ones. I am confused by the importance of the pub thing though - I never go to pubs, don't drink alcohol, don't like the atmosphere. But I might manage a token lemonade one night, if it is important to show the ability to make small talk etc.

Am still thinking abou the BAP presentation. Not the easiest thing to prepare - it's not an essay, or a sermon, or an UCCA form, odd kind of thing to have to do.
 

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Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :
 
Whatever you do for the presentation make sure that it is something that people can have a discussion about. It is a really good idea to have some open questions to get the discussion going or some follow up open questions if it stalls. I went very low tech with my presentation as I was convinced that the emotion chip in my computer would go into overload if I attempted to use anything more high tech than an OHP
 

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Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
LS I don't do pubs either and I didn't go out to the pub with any of the others ( if they went!) Interestingly I'm now at college with 3 other who were on BAP-don't think any of those went either!
Be you thats the most inportant thing. There are plenty of other opportunities to chat and show you can relate to people.
Continuing prayers for your BAP.
 

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Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
On my BAP NOBODY went to the pub. We did sit and have drinks from the 'bar' (cupboard) though, which was very pleasant.

I'd have loved a pub visit but I thought it would be slightly unseemly to drag the rest of the candidates out to the local.

Given that I got turned down anyway I probably should have given it a try!

I agree with all above advice - relax. If you're you then they'll see you. That was my problem last time. I was so concerned about 'performing' that I did exactly that and the poor sods couldn't tell what was me and what wasn't.
 

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Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Re. the pub thing: The point my DDO was making was that it was important for me to join in whatever my fellow candidates were doing to unwind and socialize in the evening. The other half of his sentence was, 'You will want to go up to your room with a book. However the selectors will all be at the pub too, glancing over at your group. If you're not there it will confirm them in any opinion they might have that you're aloof and overly intellectual.'

In the event, I really enjoyed the pub visit, especially talking with the candidate who'd been a hostage-negotiator with the Met. He was recommended, and went on to Oak Hill.
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
Our group didn't go to the pub, we did hav a drink in the bar downstairs though. I felt intimidated by it, but in hindsight I'm glad I did it. Everyone (inc. the selectors) was talking about Downton, which I don't watch. I said so and got a look. I followed this up with - "what did people think of x-factor". I got another look. It was quite fun (although I did come away thinking that maybe I just didnt fit in with vicar-types). It was strangely relaxing. Then I went and read a book - much more me

In other words - I wouldn't worry about how your attendance or non attendance at the pub/bar will be viewed. It's a stressful situation and you will need to wind down. If you can face the bar, you'll prbably enjoy it more than you'd expect, but if not, don't worry!
 

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Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
Knocks politely

I began a thread on professional listening skills training for church leadership.

http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=017042;p=1#000013

Daftly, I started it on the same day as the Eurovsion Song Contest, bad timing, that...



Could I prevail upon any of you aspiring clergy persons/pastors to hop over there sometime to add your two penn'orth, please?

thanking you

Miffy
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Done.
 

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Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Evensong:
Done.

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Thank you!

 

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Posted by Westcoaster (# 17115) on :
 
Well, I think I've done it all arse about face. I spoke to the Bishop first, and had a full afternoon interview with him, and was then referred to the DDO..positively referred, I may add. I take it that's a good sign....
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Welcome to the ship Westcoaster and congrats on being recommended by your bishop.
 

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Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
I was going to post this in the Curate Support thread but it seems to have got lost in Oblivion so instead I'll post here. Actually this is probably a better place as its where I started the journey!
Today I leave Holy Hogwarts! I can't believe how emotional I feel at leaving college and being sent out into the world. I've learnt so much at college and made some great friends. Now we scatter to start as curates in the life we have all felt called to. Our vocation to ordained ministry has been validated and soon we will be ordained.
Thank you to all who have supported and prayed for me on this thread over the years since I started posting- back in about 2005 I think.
 

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Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
Yay! Congratulations Jante!

Must be hard to leave but there will be brilliant things in the next place too.

I went to see the DDO. She's happy to take me through so I've officially started the process again. Looking at college Sept 2013, if I get through.
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
Jante, congratulations and enjoy the celebrations! God bless.
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Congratulations Jante. Those years has flown by, haven't they. I wish you well for the future.

I came back from the BAP yesterday, and boy, am I exhausted. It was so intense, but supportive, and there was a really powerful sense of God's presence. I have no idea what will happen as a result of the BAP, and I suppose that it is part of the come-down that today I have felt really low and thought of all the things I could have said, and obsessed about the things I did say.

Everyone I met was lovely, though, and I enjoyed the experience, a real once-in-a-lifetime event.

(I think it's going to be a "no" though).
 

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Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :
 
The day-after thing (obsessing about what you didn't say but wish you had, what you did say but wish you hadn't...) is perfectly normal for the day after a BAP.

It is a good idea to plan something to look forward to for the weekend after a BAP, so that there is something else to think about.

The rest is in the hands of God, the selectors and your Bishop...
 

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Posted by Ahleal V (# 8404) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laxton's Superba:
I am confused by the importance of the pub thing though - I never go to pubs, don't drink alcohol, don't like the atmosphere. But I might manage a token lemonade one night, if it is important to show the ability to make small talk etc.

---

I went to the selection place that didn't have a pub, but did have a little self-service bar. However, I only went there for about 10 mins one evening. If there were selectors down there, I didn't hear about it.

To be honest, I spent so much time eating tea and cake on the BAP, and socialised with gusto during mealtimes, that in the downtime I did have, I stayed in my room, read a book, listened to my iPod - and ate 1kg of chocolate.

And - I got through the BAP and nothing was said regarding my non-attendence at the bar.

AV

[ 10. June 2012, 07:14: Message edited by: Ahleal V ]
 

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Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
Congratulations Jante! Hope your move goes smoothly, and prayers for you as you start this new stage of your life.

And prayers for you, too, LS, as you wait for the result of your BAP.


 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jante:
Now we scatter to start as curates in the life we have all felt called to. Our vocation to ordained ministry has been validated and soon we will be ordained.

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If I had one word it would be enjoy. It is a wonderful life.
 

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Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :
 
We are moving to the new house at the end of this week and I should probably be tidying another cupboard rather than posting here

Much as I've loved theological college I'm really looking forward to starting life as a curate.
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
News from the BAP - well, it was a No - the Bishop rang me earlier on. I can't say I am surprised. I feel a bit disappointed, but in a way let off the hook. My DDO is away at the moment so I won't know what is in the advisers' report for a while (but I can guess!).

Thank you all for your thoughts and prayers, they were much appreciated. Who knows what lies ahead, some other fantastic opportunity to serve the kingdom may be just around the corner.

Prayers and to all those still on the discernment path.
 

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Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
for you LS as you discern the path God is calling you to.
 

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Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
prayers for you LS, that must have been very difficult news to hear.
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 
Prayers for you Laxton - have been there - and also moved on and come out of the other side - for me it was a second BAP and I aqm due to be deaconed shortly. But I recollect the feelings very well still. Prayers that you may discern which way to go forward however it turns out for you xx
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Thanks everyone.
Initially I threw my toys out the pram and decided that was it, but now I really want to do it again and prove that my call is genuine, realistic and all the rest. DDO has advised a period of thought and reflection but is happy to go through it with me again.
Bagpuss how long between BAPs for you?
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Twenty-odd years ago I went to ABM (as it then was) and was turned down with a report that I thought and still think was monstrously unfair and rather patronising. If it had been less so I would probably have just accepted it and walked away, but I was so cross I was determined to not to. In the end I didn't go back, but the things that I did to keep pursuing what I thought was my vocation to the ministry changed my life in all sorts of ways (including meeting Mrs A) and led me to where I am now- which on the whole I'm pretty happy with.

So keep on at it. Even if you don't end up where you now think you should be, you may end up somewhere else which turns out to be the right place for you.
 

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Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
LS prayers for you as you think about beginning the whole process again. I pray that your feet will guide you towards the path that leads to the place where God wants you to be.
 

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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
Hi all

Currently feeling nudged/poked towards the priesthood (Anglican) and feeling very Jonahish about it all. I suffer from major clinical depression and at the moment am really wondering why God would choose me for this when I just don't feel capable - but then the worse life feels for me, the more excited and passionate I get about mission and evangelism. No matter how bad things are while I am in a relationship with God, the more I cannot imagine being without Him and the more I need to show Him to others. Things like Godly Play and Street Churches really appeal for me, so I am considering the possibility of Pioneer Ministry or chaplaincy in a mental health or challenging educational (like a residential school for repeatedly expelled students) setting (I have had a lot of problems with homelessness and staying in education as well as the mental health issues).

I am off to university in Northampton in September to study Politics, and will hopefully finally get a degree (I'm 23)! At the moment I haven't told anyone in an official capacity about what I think might be a calling, as at present I am temporarily living with my parents until university, and as I am planning on moving to Northampton full-time I figured it was better to wait until then. However, what I should do...I'm not really sure of. Should I just concentrate on getting better and university, while attending a church but not thinking about ministry? I have been looking at projects in Northampton (like the Street Church) that I would like to get involved with.

Any help or advice would be welcomed! The more I learn about the priesthood and what's involved and how much feels impossible, the more mixing the priesthood and depression feels incredibly risky - although I suppose that seeing the priesthood as a challenging and difficult role is better than seeing it as an easy life working one day a week

[ 22. June 2012, 07:35: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]
 

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Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :
 
Whatever study you're doing now, training for ministry would mean more study at the end of it, even if it's only a year (but at your age it would probably be more - sorry!). The selectors at a conference would want to see that you are capable of completing your degree, seeing through what you have chosen, that sort of thing, before sending you off on any more study.

I suggest, as you say, that you concentrate on getting well and go to university, but don't dump the idea of ministry too far away. Get involved with a church (you'll have to show evidence of belonging somewhere for a good length of time) and whatever it offers; get to know people and let them get to know you. You'll begin to see what ministry would mean for you as you go along.

Selectors will also want to see that you have an objective view of any mental health issues, not pretending they don't exist or that they're long gone, but that you have them under control, and you have some support for yourself in this area.

Good luck!
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Jade

You also need to be aware that an Evangelist/Mission vocation is not the same as one to be a Vicar. It is not necessarily either/or, it can be both/and, but if someone came to me all fired up around mission and did not seem interested in proclamation, sacraments and pastoral care, I would be asking what type of vocation they had, rather than whether they had one or not.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laxton's Superba:
Thanks everyone.
Initially I threw my toys out the pram and decided that was it, but now I really want to do it again and prove that my call is genuine, realistic and all the rest. DDO has advised a period of thought and reflection but is happy to go through it with me again.
Bagpuss how long between BAPs for you?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bagpuss:
Well I am not sure where the last 2 years training went let alone the 10+ years of complicated vocational journey and discernment!

But tomorrow I depart for my ordination retreat and God and bishop willing my deaconing this Saturday.

Thanks for the prayers and support that you have contributed. Some of you have played a significant part in my journey - you know who you are!

Bagpuss x

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And me!
Am I ready? I'm packed - is that the same thing? Not sure if there's any more room in my head beyond making sure things are in place for me being away, and for the weekend. I feel that if I can just be where I should be when I should be, I will have to rely on the Holy Spirit for the rest.

for all ordinations this weekend.
 

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Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
You're not meant to be a good seminarian when you start. You'll pretty much have that down by the time ordination rolls around!

Talking of things rolling around, I'm finally approaching my last year of initial formation. Clearly, my superiors don't think I have enough to keep me off the streets as, in addition to finishing my last year of the MDiv, I'll be moving in to my community's undergraduate seminary to serve as assistant director there.

I'm definitely excited about it (it'll be a nice gradual transition between seminary and full-time ministry), but I'm not sure you can really be ready for these kind of things until you're in the midst of them. I'm glad I've had some placements that have been helpful preparation for this, and I have a lot of trust in my supervisor, which is key.

This coming year I'll petition for perpetual vows and, god willing, profess those at the end of summer '13, be ordained a deacon and then be shipped off for my first ordained assignment (being ordained priest Easter '14). Quite what and where that will be will be a task of community discernment for the coming year. I don't expect to have a clue where that might be until the new year, and I probably won't know for sure till after Easter. I'm much more OK with that not knowing than I would have been before all this began. Partly growth in patience, but mainly trust in community decision making and ability to live obedience (which involves both responding to and contributing to decisions).
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
(This temporary position might be attractive to someone with a few months to kill before clergy training or a permanent post, so am copying it over from the Job Support thread.)

If anyone is needing something to do with their time for a few months while waiting for something more permanent to come up, I've come across a gem of a position that I'd love to do myself if I was actively looking at the moment. I stayed here in the summer and it's a great place for people who love books - a residential library.
There are also 'Chapel and Chaplaincy opportunities' if you click on the appropriate link from the same page.
 

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Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on :
 
for all those of you being ordained this coming weekend
 

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Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Chorister:
(This temporary position might be attractive to someone with a few months to kill before clergy training or a permanent post, so am copying it over from the Job Support thread.)

If anyone is needing something to do with their time for a few months while waiting for something more permanent to come up, I've come across a gem of a position that I'd love to do myself if I was actively looking at the moment. I stayed here in the summer and it's a great place for people who love books - a residential library.
There are also 'Chapel and Chaplaincy opportunities' if you click on the appropriate link from the same page.

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I am going as chaplain there in August 2013. Can't wait.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Enjoy, Nunc! It's a great place.
 

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Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Panda:
And me!
Am I ready? I'm packed - is that the same thing?

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Panda... oops, I misread this when I replied a few days ago: you're approaching diaconate, not starting seminary! Prayers for you, Bagpuss and all, and thank you for your commitment to servant leadership in the church!
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
Just had my medical. All cleared now so I can concentrate on getting ready for college! So so excited now
 

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Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
Congratulations to all newly ordained people!

Especially Jante, as I was there for that one. You won't have noticed me as you had better things on your mind but I was the red haired steward on the main doors! Looking chilly in a summer dress... fool that I am.

It was a lovely service ad it was brilliant to be there to see the beginning of ordained life for so many.

Yay! Congrats to all!

Ed to add: Also yay for Jenn! Good luck.


Masha

[ 01. July 2012, 15:42: Message edited by: Masha ]
 

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Posted by geroff (# 3882) on :
 
Masha
I was there too - you probably gave me a hymn sheet. And of course there was another shipmate carrying the mace as well.
Congratulations Jante.
 

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Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
Thank you Geroff and Masha- I 'll admit to not seeing either of you- but then with tears in my eyes it was difficult to see anything!! It was a wonderful day and I'm not sure I'm back on firm ground even now!

 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 
Likewise - despite being back at work today I am still on a massive high - cannot find the words to describe how I felt during the service
 

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Posted by Bookworm (# 11575) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Bagpuss:
Likewise - despite being back at work today I am still on a massive high - cannot find the words to describe how I felt during the service

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You probably never will! You'll spend the rest of your days living into and understanding the sacrament that is ordination. And the wonder and the grace of it.

But it's worth putting down a few words of some sort in a journal, and adding a copy of the service if you have one, and photos... making a metaphorical pile of stones to mark the place, to be able to go back and remember and give thanks.

Giving thanks for all who are in times of transition and new beginnings.
 

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Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :
 
Wise advice Bookworm - I wish I had been given it 10 years ago.

(But I do have photos, a DVD etc, just not the thoughts that go along with them...)
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
St Paul's Cathedral (on Facebook ) released a bunch of lovely photoes today of people being deaconed. Was that any of you lot?

Looked awesome.
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 
Not me at St Paul's - we do have pics on our diocesan website though.

Great idea re the journal - I have jotted down some things last night as there were a few very poignant moments that I don't wnat to forget. Along with a list of presents, those I was ordained with etc. Lots of little bits
 

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Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 
I can't find the curacy support thread - on a search it says it doesn't exist anymore!

Anyway - today I did my first baptism which was utterly lovely - a really special moment - just wanted to share
 

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Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :
 
It's all change in the hatless family. My wife was ordained a few weeks ago, and begins her first pastorate in September. This Sunday is my last after nearly 31 years as a minister in pastoral charge. I will be a hospital chaplain in the town we are moving to.

Change, adventure, work, partnership. It feels like we're choosing life.
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 

 

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Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :
 
The oral exam yesterday completed my requirements for the Certificate in Chaplaincy.
Now I have to find out where to use it.
 

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Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
The oral exam yesterday completed my requirements for the Certificate in Chaplaincy.
Now I have to find out where to use it.

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Places like RFS, your marine rescue stuff or similar?
 

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Posted by geroff (# 3882) on :
 
I have just started a new curacy support thread called "Off we go..."
I hope it doesn't fall into Oblivion too quickly...
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Bumping this up so it doesn't disappear.... I know it's a long one, but it is so handy to have all the pages, as our journey together. Please can it be kept, or at least a link to it, and its predecessor, which is also of much value, in any new thread that is set up to replace it? Thanks very much.

For all those on the discernment road,

I've had the summer off too much post-BAP dissection but will be returning to the fray next week with another trip to the DDO.
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
I can't see any problem if you want to place links in this or any new thread to old threads on the same subject.
 

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Posted by Pia (# 17277) on :
 
OK. So I'm writing this, and I still don't know yet if I'm actually going to press 'post' at the end...

How do you know the difference between a vocation and a completely bonkers bee in your bonnet? I think I've got a bad case of the latter, since even if I could be sure that this was 'a God thing' (rather than an 'all in my head' thing) there's no way that I could pursue it: I'm divorced and remarried; my husband is an atheist who has problems even with the fact that I go to church on Sunday let alone anything more; I am our main breadwinner; I have a full-time and demanding job and kids...

I know all those things to be the case, but the thought doesn't go away. And here's the really mad thing: I grew up going to church, lost my faith in my teens (as one does) and found it again a few years ago... but even during my long agnostic period I always felt (not always as in 'every day', but on different occasions throughout that period) that I should have been a priest (maybe 'if things had been different' or something). So now I'm back 'in the fold', as it were, the feeling has just multiplied (now it really is every blinking day, whether I like it or not).

I know that I probably just need to find some kind of alternative channel for those energies, by volunteering to help in some other way, but at the moment I'm kind of paralysed by the notion that that's not what I really want. (See... I wrote 'What I want', whereas surely it should be about what God wants... I'm pretty sure that's Pride, or something...)

If I press 'post' (the jury's still out at this stage) I guess I will be doing so in the hope of a reality check... Tell me that I am being silly, and that there are a thousand other ways in which I can serve God... I already know that I am, and there are.


(I'm now hovering over 'Add reply'. I have been there for some time... again )
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
Pia, this might not be what you want to hear, but it might be that this feeling won't go away until you have acknowledged it properly and maybe even explored it. Is there any way you could do that? I understand the position with your husband must be very difficult, but would talking to your vicar/priest be something you could consider? Could you sound your husband out about this?
 

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Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :
 
PErhaps this feeling needs Decent Christian Burial...go and talk to your husband and your priest ... but be prepared to be surprised in the direction that you may be being called. Remember that nothing is impossible with God.

Every blessing and enjoy the journey.
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
I'm glad you posted, Pia. I hope you find courage to take this further. It is awfully scary to start with but as the wise (wo)man said, nothing is impossible with God, and God is certainly a God of surprises, worth taking risks for. I'm kind of in the middle of the process, but I have found that the process itself can be revelatory, not necessarily as a means to an end of funny collar stuff, but as part of your spiritual journey. Hang in there, baby steps, and keep posting. Thinking of you
 

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Posted by Pia (# 17277) on :
 
Thank you to all who replied.

The thought of talking to anyone about this in 'real life' makes me quake. It was hard enough to write it down...

And yet I feel better for having done so. And the fact that you took the time to read and reply means a huge amount to me.
 

---

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
I know enough candidates for ordained ministry and people contemplating it ... praying for you, Pia.
 

---

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
Another voice chiming in to say that vocational thoughts never go away unless you do something about them.

You ask, "How do you know the difference between a vocation and a completely bonkers bee in your bonnet?" The answer to that is at once very simple and rather involved: you submit the potential vocation to the Church for scrutiny. Also, when you talk about volunteering to help with something, don't necessarily think of that as an "alternative." That could be precisely the experience you need to make the discernment a little more concrete.
 

---

Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on :
 
Glad you posted Pia! I'm not ordained or in the process thereof, but Hart's reply makes much sense. Also, if it's really scary to think of talking to your priest about this, keep talking to God about it, and explore lots of volunteering opportunities. If they are what you feel 'right' doing, keep doing them. If they don't feel 'right' and the call keeps on calling, you'll have hopefully gained some confidence and experience on the way?
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hart:


You ask, "How do you know the difference between a vocation and a completely bonkers bee in your bonnet?" The answer to that is at once very simple and rather involved: you submit the potential vocation to the Church for scrutiny.

---

And even then, when they initially accept you for training, you'll still have that thought going round and round in your head on the bad days.

And I've been told that even once you're ordained, it doesn't go away.

Tho I suspect one rather accepts that the church has made the right choice after a time.

Well done posting here Pia. Talking about it all is the first step!
 

---

Posted by Pia (# 17277) on :
 
Oh, thank you all, again.

I really like Hart's and Earwig's practical approach - find things I can do, that are un-scary in the first instance (things maybe that even my husband can cope with!), and go from there. That makes so much more sense.

I am really glad I posted now, as you've helped me to see the wood for the trees a bit...
 

---

Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
Slightly late, but I'm another one saying that you should do something about that bee in your bonnet. And I don't think you should worry too much about saying 'what I want', because God works through our desires as well as against their grain. So stick with it, volunteer for something and see how that feels, and keep talking - here is a good place. Discerning what you are called to can be a long process, and is often unsettling and scary. But it's also amazing and exciting to feel that God is calling you to something - even when it isn't clear what or why or how.
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
.....and the journey in question is a long one. Time is a gift from God. We are not the same person as we were when the process started. Neither are our loved ones. Life happens. Things change. Some people loose faith. Others surprisingly find it. We shall pray.
 

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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
So. Today I was chatting to the chaplain at uni (the chaplaincy having been a great anchoring place for me here, much more so than the CU) and being the third person at the university to express interest in pursuing a vocation, we naturally fell to discussing that. It's been becoming clear that it *is* something I should look at, no matter how scary it is to me - and it really is scary! So the chaplain has emailed the DDO about a casual chat with me and the other two interested students. I know this is still all unofficial but it feels like I'm actually moving forward in this! It's scary and huge but very exciting. Would appreciate prayers, and praying for Pia too
 

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Posted by Pia (# 17277) on :
 
Hello Jade. I am still here, still lurking...

I've had really good experiences of our chaplaincy, which has helped me through some tough situations. Glad you're having a good experience too. Praying for you.
 

---

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
So who fancies applying for this wonderful, wonderful job!
 

---

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
So who fancies applying for this wonderful, wonderful job!

---

As a general question, at what stage in the process did people tell others about their vocation? How was it done? Coming from a spiritual background that's roughly half lapsed Catholic/Anglo-Catholic and half con-evo (and neither side really on-board with female clergy) and having a lot of liberal secular/atheist friends (who don't get why a modern feminist woman would want to be a priest in the first place), I have a lot of people to tell at some stage and have no idea how it will be taken. Depending on how this all pans out anyway...
 

---

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
More on Chorister's vacancy - it's house for duty.
 

---

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
Slowly, starting only with closest friends, family and mentors. Once I'd been accepted as an applicant, I told more people, but I didn't go public till I'd actually been accepted to start the next year. Many people's reactions surprised me, especially that people's enthusiasm wasn't correlated with their church-i-ness.
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
More on Chorister's vacancy - it's house for duty.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deusluxmea:
As some of you may know, the Bishop temporarily halted accepting any more ordinands in January, stating "we simply have too many clergy in the Episcopal Church now."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deusluxmea:
Futzing around the internet today, I stumbled on the Episcopal Diocese of Washington website. As some of you may know, the Bishop temporarily halted accepting any more ordinands in January, stating "we simply have too many clergy in the Episcopal Church now."

Is this true of all dioceses? I know that the TEC population is getting smaller, but had assumed, somewhat naively, that clergy presence would keep things chugging along...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deusluxmea:
As some of you may know, the Bishop temporarily halted accepting any more ordinands in January, stating "we simply have too many clergy in the Episcopal Church now."

---

That's interesting.

Here in Australia we have a massive shortage of local clergy in the Anglican church. We have to import them regularly from England.

But I hear the Episcopal church pay is much, much better than ours.

---

Not from what I understand.
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
You mean regarding pay or regarding shortage?
 

---

Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 
Regarding pay. Generally in the US, from what I understand, pay and conditions are generally far worse than our minimum stipend/package (with the exception of well endowed parishes, of course).

Mind you, I think of all the dioceses in Oz, Brisbane appears to have the best pay conditions, so... it could be relative. (Minimum stipend next year is $57912, plus car, house plus utilities/housing allowance, and the option of salary sacrificing up to 30%... Not sure how that compares.)
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Right.

Was just going on what I heard from Beeswax Altar. Haven't looked into it in detail.
 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Having secretly lurked since my BAP back in March 2010 I'm quietly putting my hand up here to say that I'm going for a second time in 3 weeks' and 6 days' time... exciting and slightly terrifying all at the same time but I'm trusting that I'm being obedient in going for a 2nd time and as my sense of calling hasn't lessened one little bit since then I think it's just what I have to do!

Your prayers would be very welcome -I just wanted to share this! My prayers are with everyone as they seek to discern God's will...

H Hope
 

---

Posted by deusluxmea (# 15765) on :
 
Prayers Hope!
 

---

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
Best of luck H Hope.

I have a first informal chat with the DDO today and more nervous than I probably should be!
 

---

Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :
 
Prayers for you Harmony Hope as you go back into the fray and for Jade Constable as she enters it.
 

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Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
Prayers for Harmony and Jade

My last meeting with the DDO left me feeling like I'd fallen into a black hole. Not sure I'm out of it yet. Only six weeks to wait until the next one...
 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Thank you everyone - it means a lot to me to be held in prayer.

I have no idea how it can take as long to prepare selection papers the second time round as it did the first but it's been quite a lot to get done on top of my usual work/family/church committments...in between my vicar has left and my DDO has changed so the prayers of everyone are even more comforting!

Now all I need to do is to stop waking up in the night thinking about my talk - the sooner I commit something to paper the better I think!

for everyone on the discernment journey - may God walk with you all the way.

Harmony Hope
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
HH and JC
 

---

Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
For Jade Constable - how did your informal chat go?

For NiminyPiminy - hope the black-hole feeling is fading...

H Hope
 

---

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by harmony hope:
For Jade Constable - how did your informal chat go?

For NiminyPiminy - hope the black-hole feeling is fading...

H Hope

---

It went well thanks, got given a folder full of stuff to read and a dvd on pioneer ministry to watch (my response to that was 'no thanks' ). The DDO has spoken to my priest about it so we shall see.
 

---

Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by harmony hope:
Thank you everyone - it means a lot to me to be held in prayer.

I have no idea how it can take as long to prepare selection papers the second time round as it did the first
Harmony Hope

---

When I went for the second time I just used what I had done the first time around and added some bits and tweaked some other.

I found the second time totally different to the first and enjoyed it more - I think I connected more with the selectors.

Good luck and lots of prayers
 

---

Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Thanks Bagpuss for sharing your experience - it helps to know that someone else has done the same before me! Do you mind me asking - did you have a sense that it was going to be a 'yes' the second time round?

H Hope
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
I've got half way through my training and I'm thinking of withdrawing...

If I picked it up again later I'd have to start the whole process again. sigh.
 

---

Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :
 
Good Grief, or rather Bad Grief.

I hope you don't give up. Is it the intensity? Your intensity? Have you a kindred spirit?

Keep off the intense debates here for a while. I would find it wearing, but maybe you find them stimulating.

"And here's five words of wisdom, 'never take a stranger's advice'"
(from Adam Carroll Stranger's Advice
 

---

Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :
 
Evensong - if this is mid course wobbles then it is probably healthy. The excitment of starting training which has been long anticipated and discerned will has worn off and the reality of finding a title post and completing all that academic work starts to kick in. This is normal.

Of course it may be more than that and I'm sure you have all the support in place in terms of tutors, mentors, cell group to talk this through.

Will pray anyway.
 

---

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:
I've got half way through my training and I'm thinking of withdrawing...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:
I've got half way through my training and I'm thinking of withdrawing...

If I picked it up again later I'd have to start the whole process again. sigh.

---

Please think very carefully and ride out a difficult patch for some time first.

[ 16. November 2012, 12:39: Message edited by: leo ]
 

---

Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
Halfway through is often a difficult patch in any process. Rather than withdrawing can you take some time out so that you can have a break? That's what I sometimes advise students to do when they are having a tough time. Get some time for yourself and if you can, find someone who is not invested in you either staying or going to talk to about how you feel. Talk to a tutor, too, if you can - because they will have dealt with wobbly people before.
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
Evensong....nothing profound to offer, except prayer. Prayer for peace, for resolving the niggles, for silence and space and good friends who can walk and laugh with you.
 

---

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
It's been par for the course for me, I've wanted to drop out half way through every time I've studied, finding it a particularly tough hurdle to jump over with 3-year courses. What got me over them was a combination of things: people rooting for me, not wanting to have wasted what I'd already done, and wanting to meet God's calling for me. I'm so thankful that I carried on.

Try to hang on in there, Evensong. Take a holiday if you can. You'll be in my prayers too.
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Thanks all for your support and encouragement. You're all very sweet.

I am going through a rough patch ( I think it's partially because I've been placed in a parish and I'm totally unsuited to parish ministry ) but I'm not doing anything rash. I'm sitting with it and praying hard for true discernment.

Would very much appreciate any of your prayers too.

For those of you that did discontinue, I'd love to hear why and what you ended up doing. If not here, perhaps in a PM?
 

---

Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :
 
Placements are supposed to challenge you and it sounds like it is doing just that.


 

---

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
For Catholics, the seminary completion rate is about 40%, so leaving is actually a very normal thing to do. The best reason is to leave is that you have more clarity about your vocation than when you entered and that clarity is that you're not called to the priesthood. A very honest reason to leave is that commitments are starting to loom and you still don't feel like you've gotten that 'final yes' from God. Another is that there's not enough time left in your formation program to work on everything you feel like should be worked on before ordination AND you think you can work on these things outside of formation.

All of this must be tempered with: we can never be 100% certain of anything; we're never 'ready' for priesthood; ordination is not the end of formation; cold feet are normal.

Leaving formation can be a God-filled choice if done for the right reasons, guided by prayer and conversation with your formators, friends and spiritual director. Time out can also be a good call. Remember to never make a big decision in desolation: seek the consolation.


 

---

Posted by Bagpuss (# 2925) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by harmony hope:
Thanks Bagpuss for sharing your experience - it helps to know that someone else has done the same before me! Do you mind me asking - did you have a sense that it was going to be a 'yes' the second time round?

H Hope

---

Both times I went with the expectation that this could be the end of the journey - I kind of took that attitude all the way through - but I did feel as though I connected with the selectors better the second time round and that I had sold myself better on the paperwork beforehand. First time they thought I was happy to stay being a Reader so I made sure I out in LOADS of stuff to counteract that!
 

---

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
Hello shipmates,

Thanks to everyone for the contributions on this thread, I've found them really useful. I've been feeling the pull of God to do something more with my life (and for Him) for years now. For the last two and half years I've felt that the pull was towards some form of church-based ministry, either ordained or lay I wasn't sure. Recently I've felt that pull getting stronger and stronger towards ordained ministry in the Church of England. Last week I received some very strong external confirmation that this may be the direction God wants me to explore, so I've decided now might be the time to look into this seriously.

I have to admit I found some of the information on the CofE website pretty daunting - the full Criteria for Selection seem to suggest the CofE are looking for supermen and superwomen rather than mere mortals! For anyone who has been through the CofE (or a similar) discernment process, do the Criteria for Selection become less daunting when you discuss them with your DDO or do they remain terrifying?! This isn't to say this has put me off, but it's made me feel even more inadequate than I felt before even God...

My parish (in Southwark Diocese) is currently without an incumbent - we are hopefully getting a Priest in Charge from around the middle of next year I think. Does anyone know what this will mean for the official discernment process? We have a fantastic Senior Honorary Curate who I'll talk to about how I'm feeling (after the Christmas rush...), but do I need an incumbent or Priest in Charge before the diocese can get involved? I talked very briefly to our previous incumbent before he retired, but that was only in the last few weeks of his ministry with us, and my thoughts were still a bit scattered at the time.

We also already have two people from our parish in the discernment process - I assume there's no quota per parish, but are the diocese likely to worry that our smallish parish (~75 weekly communicants, 100 on the electoral roll) won't be able to support more candidates pastorally?

Although I was baptised and confirmed into the CofE and have attended CofE churches for most of my life (I'm 30 next month) I've only been attending our current church for under 18 months. Before that I was attending (on and off for 3 years) and in membership (for a couple of years) at a pretty liberal Baptist Church - my wife and her family are/were Baptists - where I was becoming increasingly involved in the leadership. To cut a long story short, that church imploded in a fairly major way just over two years ago and we took the very difficult decision to leave. We came across our current CofE church and have never really looked back - I don't think any of us would contemplate a return to a Baptist Church now and it is very much ministry in the Church of England that I feel drawn towards (many reasons: the sacraments, liturgy, Baptist obsession with penal substitution: I'm far too liberal for the Baptists really).

Are the diocese going to be worried about someone entering the discernment process who has been in their CofE parish for such a short time? I'm not in a tearing hurry to rush through things - I hope and pray that things will go at God's speed - but equally I feel I've probably dragged my feet on this already, and I feel I'm being nudged to do something now rather than drag my feet any longer!

Any thoughts/prayers gratefully received!

IACHMR
 

---

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
IACHMR, I had been in Peterborough diocese for less than two months when I officially got Put In The System! With me I chose to go with my uni diocese as opposed to my home diocese because I have a stronger connection to my church here than in my home diocese - I realise your situation is different but I imagine the DDO will be sympathetic.
 

---

Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
IACHMR, you should be able to contact your vocations team/DDO without having talked to your incumbent first, and they will certainly be able to advise you on this in any case. Re pastoral support during the process, depending on your situation what you get may vary wildly. Since I talked to him 18 months ago (when he was very supportive) my parish priest has not mentioned the process once. Come to think of it he hasn't mentioned God once apart from in sermons, during that time. I don't think it's unusual for there to be several people going through the discernment process at once - I know of a church where there are 11!

It might be a good idea to see if you can meet with a spiritual director - your diocese should have someone co-ordination spiritual direction. Mine has been completely wonderful and a huge support as I go through the process, which is very testing, both mentally and spiritually.

for you as you seek to discern where God is calling you, and as you think about your next step.
 

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Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
I would second Niminypiminy on the need to have a spiritual director through the process. Your DDO may be wonderful, as mine was and is, but they are the person writing reports about you. Your spiritual director is completely outside the process and the person you can be totally honest with. They will also want to talk about God, which can be nice.
 

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Posted by Birdseye (# 5280) on :
 
Evensong, don't give up please... if you liken it to 'basic training' for the army, only spiritual, you won't be far off. But stick it out!
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Thanks for your encouragement birdseye. Nice of you.

But the question is .... why should I stick it out? I can. But would it be right? Is it what God wants?

*sigh*. Still in the desert wasteland at the moment.

I switch regularly between this feeling and this feeling.

And my husband just keeps telling me I need to grow up.

And methinks he may have a point.

I'm preaching on John the Baptist - just emerged from the wilderness - next week.

Here's hoping!
 

---

Posted by Birdseye (# 5280) on :
 
I think your husband is a bit right really - being formed for ministry is not simply continuing Christian discipleship...The 'falling in love' bit is over (at least for the time being) and you've committed to being apprenticed to the daily work of God's kingdom, -you're going to end up being 'looked up to' or at least 'looked to' rightly or wrongly, by lots of people, and you are also going to have a certain authority and position -I think of it like a liveried servant in a King's court -humanly speaking no better than any other person, and certainly no closer to the King, but with a particular significance, and greater responsibilities... your relationship with God's people is changed somewhat... in that now you are no longer simply a happy little sheep, you are instead to be entrusted with pastoring his people... and God gives us free will -so being trained in personal discipline is invaluable...

Of course we do nothing alone... all the good we do, we do in God's strength -however if we don't get up and get on with it,the things that we should be doing won't be done... But if we DO develop the discipline to simply be obedient and get on with it... we find that God works for good in it all -and it's really exciting!

Faithful obedience is the order of the day... it might not taste great or excite us, but like an athlete's training routine, it works.

Grit your teeth and keep praying, it's worth it.
 

---

Posted by Ceannaideach (# 12007) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
I have to admit I found some of the information on the CofE website pretty daunting - the full Criteria for Selection seem to suggest the CofE are looking for supermen and superwomen rather than mere mortals! For anyone who has been through the CofE (or a similar) discernment process, do the Criteria for Selection become less daunting when you discuss them with your DDO or do they remain terrifying?! This isn't to say this has put me off, but it's made me feel even more inadequate than I felt before even God...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Birdseye:
Evensong, don't give up please... if you liken it to 'basic training' for the army, only spiritual, you won't be far off. But stick it out!

---

And having ventured into an army recruitment office for a chat with their officers careers advisor when I was back at uni the similarities do seem to continue, right down to the three day selection. Big obvious leadership experience being among my shortcomings.

Anyway during a fairly large pause in the selection process I'd started to try and convince myself that perhaps I was just kidding myself that I was experiencing a call. It was at this point that dad (and having your dad as your vicar does seem to add an extra layer of complexity to the situation) decided that it was time for me to have an informal chat with the new DDO.

Chat with DDO went well and i find that now I'm booked onto a mini pre BAP one day panel in February to help discern further where this continual spiritual poking from God will lead me.

And? I'm terribly nervous but also glad that the process has started moving forwards again and I'm no longer sat in a sort of limbo.
 

---

Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
For all who post here wherever you may be in the discernment process...sorry not to not name you all this evening but I'm setting off on the long journey to my BAP tomorrow and fear I may never get to bed if I don't go now!

You are all very much in my prayers.

Harmony Hope
 

---

Posted by Pia (# 17277) on :
 
Prayers for you, as you approach your BAP, Harmony Hope.

I've been thinking a lot, praying a lot, and mostly chickening out of doing anything more than that.

Above all, I need to find the courage to talk to my husband. It would be wrong for me to explore this any further without talking to him first. But... well, that's a scary scary thought.

[head >>> sand]
 

---

Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :
 
Prayers for all of you in the discernment process...and especially for HH as she approaches her BAP. May the blessing of God be upon each and every one.


 

---

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
Thanks to all for the advice above. Definitely keen to get a spiritual director - it's the sort of thing I've thought about doing for a long time.

I've now finished reading through the previous thread to this (all 28 pages!), and am really heartened how people have stuck with the discernment process even when things have been really hard, or seemed to be going nowhere. The support I feel for people on this thread is fantastic too.

for all those struggling in any way.

HH - for the BAP.

aig - does a fall term in New Haven CT mean you're at the Yale Divinity School? If so, do you know Rev Dr Maggi Dawn, Dean of Marquand Chapel? She was my and my wife's chaplain at University.
 

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Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
do you know Rev Dr Maggi Dawn, Dean of Marquand Chapel?

Yes I am at Yale Divinity School (Westcott House do an exchange programme with YDS) and I do know Maggi Dawn, who preached a superb sermon on Friday at the Eucharist in Marquand Chapel.
 

---

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
Wonderful!
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:
Thanks for your encouragement birdseye. Nice of you.

But the question is .... why should I stick it out? I can. But would it be right? Is it what God wants?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
...but God likes to confound our limited ideas of what he can enable us to achieve for him...

---

Quotes file.
 

---

Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :
 
Not quite at the vocation-to-ordained-ministry stage that this thread focuses on, but you are all incredibly supportive, so I thought I'd give it a shot. I have an interview for a fellowship run by the diocese that combines social justice/community service work in a parish setting with intentional community with the other fellows. I'm graduating from college/university this spring and looking around for jobs, but this has been my dream for about six months.

I have a phone interview tomorrow morning, and really hope it goes well. I would appreciate your prayers!
 

---

Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
for you, Bostonman.

And for Evensong, as she seeks her path.
 

---

Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
I'm back from selection... Some really positive bits...will hear week today. Thank you so much for your prayers, I felt surrounded by LOve. Will know the decision a week today.

Wondering if anyone else on SoF was there too... BAP at Ely 3-5 Dec?

Harmony hope
 

---

Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
for you as you wait for the decision.
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Evensong

I rarely post about my own vocation, partly because it sounds poncy (lay people aren't supposed to have vocations), and partly because it does not fit the way my denomination thinks. My biggest problem with it is the denomination sees the vocation (Oh I know they do that believe me) and thinks minister. Every time I go forward on minister I get an immediate and firm NO from God.

---

Hey Jengie.

Thank you for sharing the story of your vocation. I ( like you ) believe lay people have vocations. In fact, I think all of us are called by God to exercise our particular gifts for our own flowering so that we might benefit the Kingdom.

Delighted to hear the doctorate came together and you'll be finishing next year hopefully. Well done!!!

As to the church using you: they might, they might not. But if they don't, no doubt you will be led to other areas where you can exercise your gifts.

As to the denomination seeing your vocation and thinking minister: funny that. I was just speaking with my systematic theology lecturer along similar lines. I asked him why he became a Rev. He said something along the lines of "well, in my line of interest (doctorate in systematic theology - hard core academic - can't really see him as a pastor) it was just naturally expected that you would go on to ordained ministry. It just seemed the done thing for someone with such a passion for theology.

Sounds like you're in the same boat perhaps?

I think there may be grounds for such an idea in that the church wants you to represent them. They wan't you to be given the "authority" of the church so that you might become an "ambassador" of the church. It glorifies the church in a particular way perhaps. Yet it's not the standard pastoral parish priest model at all is it? Or perhaps they expect you to be that too? And if that's not you (like it's not me) then I can totally understand your hesitation.

Best wishes for the journey!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
Evensong, undoubtedly God needs fabulous theologians as well as parish ministers. Perhaps your calling involves being in a place - as an ordained person - where your gifts in theology are very much needed, academically for the integrity of the Church.

---

Oh if only it were that easy! I might get good marks at Uni, but I'm not interested in becoming an academic. I like and need people too much. Dead end there.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

I have a very subjective view of what the priesthood entails - but God likes to confound our limited ideas of what he can enable us to achieve for him. I tend to emphasize my own view and experience, and I forget or underestimate that there's a lot more to it than that!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bostonman:
Not quite at the vocation-to-ordained-ministry stage that this thread focuses on, but you are all incredibly supportive, so I thought I'd give it a shot. I have an interview for a fellowship run by the diocese that combines social justice/community service work in a parish setting with intentional community with the other fellows. I'm graduating from college/university this spring and looking around for jobs, but this has been my dream for about six months.

I have a phone interview tomorrow morning, and really hope it goes well. I would appreciate your prayers!

---

That sounds really cool Bostonman. Social justice/community work in a parish setting with intentional community would be totally up my alley too!

What's your degree in?

How did the interview go??


harmony hope. Hope the waiting doesn't kill you!!

[ 07. December 2012, 13:32: Message edited by: Evensong ]
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:
Oh if only it were that easy! I might get good marks at Uni, but I'm not interested in becoming an academic. I like and need people too much. Dead end there.

---

I'm bound to say I didn't say anything about it being easy! Nothing to do with any kind of ministry is, imo. Does academia mean not having anything to do with people? I don't know myself, but surely the best academics are those who really know and understand people? At least, if their work is to have any useful merit.

If parish ministry isn't for you, nor academic work, then I suppose you must be thinking of some form of sector or specialist ministry eg, 'canon theologian', 'canon evangelist'. Or some kind of specific area of support or creativity. Though I don't know how the Australian Church works in that respect. Practical theologians have a great deal to do with people. Though that does often seem to grow out of parochial experience.

Maybe it's not so much finding your own particular niche in church work, but finding out first what needs to be done and taking it from there?
 

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Posted by Pia (# 17277) on :
 
Evensong... I am totally unqualified to comment on your situation, so excuse my butting in, but I just wanted to say that I am an academic (not a theologian, though) and for me it's all about people. I mean, I love my research too... but what I love most about doing it, is that I then get to talk about it to people who are actually interested to know.

for you. I hope it all comes right for you.
 

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Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
I'm an academic too, and I agree with Pia. Spending time alone in the library is in fact a small, and diminishing, part of the job. One of the greatest challenges and pleasures is sharing your ideas - with students, with other academics at conferences and seminars.

But it doesn't have to be either academia or ordained ministry - and people do go back and forth between teaching/research and other kinds if ministry - Rowan Williams for example.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Here is an out of date description of my doctorate. It is not the sort you get if you spend three solid years in the library.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:
Oh if only it were that easy! I might get good marks at Uni, but I'm not interested in becoming an academic. I like and need people too much. Dead end there.

---

I'm bound to say I didn't say anything about it being easy! Nothing to do with any kind of ministry is, imo.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

I spent around fifteen agonizing hours on a sermon this week only to be told by my supervisor when I presented my rough draft that she disagreed with my basic premise and I would I please delete this selected paragraph.

---

You've got 15 hours to do that????? A bit of advice - on sunday, get up to speak in church, drop your notes and speak from your heart. The study will have put you into the passage and you can now apply it to your hearers.

[coding]

[ 08. December 2012, 11:15: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
No way hose am I adlibbing. This is only my second ever sermon.
 

---

Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on :
 
Quite right Evensong. The great Martin Luther once tried that on the basis that the Holy Spirit would give him the words to speak.

After the service he was asked "did the Holy Spirit speak?"

Yes, said Luther. S/he said "Martin you have been a very lazy man"
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
That is the general gist around my diocese.
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
and btw, If you're all wondering what my terrible premise was it was that John came proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins by water and Jesus would come with the Holy Spirit and fire.

And that this is what the sacrament of baptism today says. We repent, we are forgiven and we receive the HS through Christ.

Terrible heresy innit?


 

---

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:
and btw, If you're all wondering what my terrible premise was it was that John came proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins by water and Jesus would come with the Holy Spirit and fire.

And that this is what the sacrament of baptism today says. We repent, we are forgiven and we receive the HS through Christ.

Terrible heresy innit?

---

I'm with you, Evensong.

I'd go with calling on the Holy Spirit to help you to tweak it so that it will say what he wants to say to the people, and try to let go and trust him.


 

---

Posted by Ceannaideach (# 12007) on :
 
Whatever you preach on I find that people will sometimes go away with a message that was totally different from the one you may have been trying to get across. Which is fine, the message that they heard thorugh you may have been the one thing that they needed to hear.

Much like if you get eight people to read a bible passage you will end up with at least ten different views on what the passage meant to them.

Those that have ears to hear and all that.

for tomorrow Evensong

[ 08. December 2012, 13:55: Message edited by: Ceannaideach ]
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

I spent around fifteen agonizing hours on a sermon this week only to be told by my supervisor when I presented my rough draft that she disagreed with my basic premise and I would I please delete this selected paragraph.

---

You've got 15 hours to do that????? A bit of advice - on sunday, get up to speak in church, drop your notes and speak from your heart. The study will have put you into the passage and you can now apply it to your hearers.

[coding]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by shamwari:
Quite right Evensong. The great Martin Luther once tried that on the basis that the Holy Spirit would give him the words to speak.

After the service he was asked "did the Holy Spirit speak?"

Yes, said Luther. S/he said "Martin you have been a very lazy man"

---

That's great!
 

---

Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 
Evensong, reading what you've written over the past couple of weeks, I am wondering whether you should trek over to Brisbane Diocese. Here we are MOST interested in accepting people for ministry who believe themselves called to be school chaplains, and there is a shortage of school chaplains who are ordained. (This is for our Anglican schools.)

Half the people currently in formation are there FOR school chaplaincy. There are even scholarships available for people who want to be school chaplains.

Why don't you ring Bishop Geoff Smith and have a talk with him?

BTW, your central idea about John the Baptist is the sort of thing I'd be preaching (I took a different tack today, but your's is equally valid).

One last idea: you may not be called to parish ministry, and it may bore you silly/drive you to distraction... But it is still a worthwhile experience to have in the course of formation. You learn the bread and butter of ordained ministry - which is the same whether in a school, hospital or whatever context. If you've got issues with your training clergy, contact whoever's in charge of parish assignments for ordinands and have a chat with them (well, that's what I'd do). Run your sermon past afew other people and see what they think of it. Maybe it's possible to a placement or series of placements with some school chaplains? or other fringe ministry chaplains?
 

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Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 
Another diocese you could try is Canberra-Goulburn. The bishop values missional and fringe ministry OVER and above parish ministry, and is prepared to back those who have a strong calling to do it. The only catch is you basically have to find your own funding. But where God calls, as the logic goes, God provides...
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Bless you Nunc. I needed to hear those words.

Not because I am going to move.....but because delineating and clarifying my original sense of call will help with deciding the next step.

[ 09. December 2012, 12:36: Message edited by: Evensong ]
 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Holding everyone on this thread in my prayers.

I am hoping to hear about my selection decision tomorrow... please remember me in your prayers.

thank you
Harmony Hope
 

---

Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
for you tomorrow
 

---

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
Struggling with uni and depression - I know where God wants me to end up, I just wonder and worry about how I'll get there.

for Evensong and others
 

---

Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Thank you all for your prayers... They said yes!! I am delighted and exhausted all at once!

Harmony hope
 

---

Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :
 
I have been watching for this post! Congratulations, Harmony Hope
 

---

Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Pia (# 17277) on :
 
So pleased for you, HH. I've been thinking of you.
 

---

Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :
 
Great news! Starting training in September?
 

---

Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
Fantastic news
 

---

Posted by recklessrat (# 17243) on :
 
Congratulations Harmonyhope!
Evensong and Jade Constable, my prayers are with you.
 

---

Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Great news Harmony Hope!
Where are you going to train?

Update from me: saw the DDO again yesterday, he is happy for me to go to a 2nd BAP in January 2014. He wants me to do another placement at an Anglo-Catholic place and to join another potential ordinands' group.
 

---

Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
LS that's really good news! And good to hear that you're keeping on walking the path.
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Congrats Harmony Hope. Best wishes for the new endeavor!

Jade Constable and Laxton Superba.

Thanks for prayers for me.

I've spat the dummy and am now awaiting the great and terrible day of the Lord.
 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Thank you everyone. I'm hoping to go to Cuddesdon - had a conditional place there 3 years' ago and an interview mid January. That would mean starting in September next year!

I am holding everyone on here in my prayers - those of us just starting out or those of us further along the way... my God walk with you all on your journeys.

Please do PM me if I can give any help or support to anyone.

with prayers
Harmony Hope
 

---

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
Fantastic news HH!
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by harmony hope:
Thank you everyone. I'm hoping to go to Cuddesdon

---

Great place, excellent principal.
 

---

Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Just to wish everyone very happy Christmas!
 

---

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
Happy Christmas!
 

---

Posted by geroff (# 3882) on :
 
Especially Happy New Year to those who are home from college and trying to get that essay / portfolio / report done....
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
Happy new year!

geroff - does that mean I should start trying? I'm planning on working again from wednesday
 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Just wondering if anyone at Cuddesdon has any info on local schools and 6th form colleges please?

many thanks
H Hope
 

---

Posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis (# 3886) on :
 
The nearest secondary school to RCC is Wheatley Park
Primaries are Garsington and Wheatley
I don't have children so am not very familiar with the relative benefits of the options- I seem to recall that there was a school bus to Garsington primary but not Wheatley primary. There was a bus to Wheatley Park secondary. ( I left in 2010 so info may be out of date)
 

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Posted by Purple Butterfly (# 17477) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by harmony hope:
Thank you everyone. I'm hoping to go to Cuddesdon - had a conditional place there 3 years' ago and an interview mid January. That would mean starting in September next year!

I am holding everyone on here in my prayers - those of us just starting out or those of us further along the way... my God walk with you all on your journeys.

Please do PM me if I can give any help or support to anyone.

with prayers
Harmony Hope

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Purple Butterfly:

quote:

---

Originally posted by harmony hope:
Thank you everyone. I'm hoping to go to Cuddesdon - had a conditional place there 3 years' ago and an interview mid January. That would mean starting in September next year!

I am holding everyone on here in my prayers - those of us just starting out or those of us further along the way... my God walk with you all on your journeys.

Please do PM me if I can give any help or support to anyone.

with prayers
Harmony Hope

---

---

OOPS!! Newbie alert!
When is your interview HH?
(I thought I'd finally stop lurking here and start posting - you found me on Twitter after BAP )
 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Hi Rosa - thanks very much for the info which is really useful.

Purple butterfly - my interview's on Wednesday. Nice to see you here!

Evensong - how is it going now?

Jenn - hope the studying is going well!

Jade Constable - how is it going for you?

Laxton - how is your journey going?

For us all as we journey.
 

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Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
GOod luck HH with the interview.

My own vocational journey continues. AFter 18 months unemployed, this time last year I applied for and was offered a job as a verger and got it and started in March. It ticks many of the vocational boxes -- basically I'm paid to hang around church and do stuff -- though not all of them (preaching for example). I think it will be the right place for a while at least.

Carys
 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Hello Carys - so glad you're doing work you enjoy and prayers for you as your journey continues.

Harmony Hope
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Welcome Purple Butterfly!

Carys:

Congrats on the verger job!

I applied for such a job two or three times but never got an interview.

On the Evensong vocational front - I asked for a year off and they said no.



For all you ministry students out there this is a hilarious website with short vid clips about life as a ministry student. I believe he is a Methodist in the USA.

Everyday I'm Pastoring

And this little beauty is my current favourite.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

On the Evensong vocational front - I asked for a year off and they said no.

---

That does it. There is officially a bead on my rosary with your name on it.
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 

 

---

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
Shall I fear to tread here? I started a thread on postulancy. Evensong suggested coming here. I'm on the other side of what I read in this topic. Shall be assessing as part of a committee, people who have put forward as wanting diocesan support for pursuit of holy orders. Not an employment committee, but a step prior to that.
 

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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
Congrats Carys and glad Cuddesdon went well for you HH. In my prayers Evensong

Ordination stuff is on hold while I try and cope with uni stuff, but I am seeing the DDO in a couple of weeks. I still think ordination is where God wants me to be, it's the how I'm not 100% on.

I would be interested in others' experience UK Anglican theological colleges. I am AffCath Anglo-Catholic, liberal on the Dead Horses but not as liberal as other people on everything else - not opposed to PSA for instance, just not that it's the only possible Atonement theory. The chaplain at uni (who went to Cranmer) says Cuddesdon or Mirfield would be the best fit, Westcott House probably too liberal for me. Does this sound about right? Mirfield appeals more just in terms of location, personally.
 

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Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
Jade, for you on your discernment journey

And Evensong, prayers for you. That sounds really tough.

HH hope your interview went well!

I have two essays to write for the DDO, both of which should have been sent off already, and I've been staring at the computer screen feeling completely blocked about both of them. One is the first draft of my written statement on mission and evangelism for the BAP, and I suspect that that's what is making it so difficult for me to get any words out.

I have a date to see the bishop, and I need to write and arrange to go to the open day of the regional ministerial training course (if Iir's a yes I will train part time). It all feels very serious and real, and more than a bit scary!

[ 18. January 2013, 21:51: Message edited by: Niminypiminy ]
 

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Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
Jade Constable wrote

quote:

---

I am AffCath Anglo-Catholic, liberal on the Dead Horses but not as liberal as other people on everything else

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by aig:
Jade Constable wrote

quote:

---

I am AffCath Anglo-Catholic, liberal on the Dead Horses but not as liberal as other people on everything else

---

What does 'everything else' mean? Is this about divorce and gay people in active relationships or more to do with doctrine and theology?
I think an AffCath Anglo-catholic would feel very at home in terms of worship and spirituality at Westcott; it might be a good base to explore other issues. Westcott ordinands are quite diverse in their understanding of doctrine for example.

---

Sorry - regarding doctrine and theology. I understood divorce etc to be dead horses too. And thank you.
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Don't rule out St Stephen's House. It's a far broader place than the naysayers would have you believe.

Thurible
 

---

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
Well I have been denied a maintenance grant by the Student Loans Company (because I apparently didn't earn enough to qualify as self-supporting), so I can't afford to stay at uni and so can't stay with the support of my church/uni chaplaincy/DDO. I thought I was in Northampton for a reason
 

---

Posted by Ceannaideach (# 12007) on :
 
Man that sucks Jade.

that something comes through for you.
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
Don't rule out St Stephen's House. It's a far broader place than the naysayers would have you believe.

Thurible

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The chaplain at uni (who went to Cranmer) says Cuddesdon or Mirfield would be the best fit, Westcott House probably too liberal for me. Does this sound about right? Mirfield appeals more just in terms of location, personally.

---

I know the Community at Mirfield well, and the place (if you can cope with the Pennine drizzle) is excellent. I don't know much about the College per se, except that I have heard some people don't rate it much academically. I would have thought that is less important as general formation and especially the solid foundation you would get in liturgy and spirituality. It is definitely Catholic in ethos but in no way precious and there are a number of evangelically-inclined students. The benefit of living alongside a dedicated monastic community must be substantial.

[PS. Sorry Jade, I have just seen your other post. I really hope and pray some finance will be forthcoming... that is just too bad.]

[ 21. January 2013, 14:56: Message edited by: Angloid ]
 

---

Posted by ButchCassidy (# 11147) on :
 
Jade that is an absolute tragedy. These events can make more sense looking back (as I found from a similar situation) but that is zero comfort at the time. Praying for you. I assume you've already used student loans? and a chat with the chaplain may provide contacts (I know a few churches near me who provide grants for poor students).

As for me, the Southwark discernment process divides into two parts: just had several sessions with the vocations advisor, who did the initial discernment bit, now he's sent his report to the DDO who will do the formal/ pre BAP bit. So waiting for her email, bit excited, one eye slightly on clock (would be v v handy for job reasons to go into training, if successful, this September. Making good progress so far..) Guess only thing to do in meantime is keep ploughing down the reading list..
 

---

Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
Jade if you are at University at the moment have you been to the Student Union/your tutor/ Student Support services at Registry (or whatever it is called at your Uni) for help with sorting out the loan? I don't know what your circumstances are(whether you are currently on an undergraduate degree course or some other kind of course, whether you have already had a student loan) but nowadays all universities have people who specialise in helping students through the funding and finance maze, as far as they can.


 

---

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
Jade if you are at University at the moment have you been to the Student Union/your tutor/ Student Support services at Registry (or whatever it is called at your Uni) for help with sorting out the loan? I don't know what your circumstances are(whether you are currently on an undergraduate degree course or some other kind of course, whether you have already had a student loan) but nowadays all universities have people who specialise in helping students through the funding and finance maze, as far as they can.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:
And this little beauty is my current favourite.

---

Strangely, it was the one I most identified with, too.
 

---

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The chaplain at uni (who went to Cranmer) says Cuddesdon or Mirfield would be the best fit, Westcott House probably too liberal for me. Does this sound about right? Mirfield appeals more just in terms of location, personally.

---

I know the Community at Mirfield well, and the place (if you can cope with the Pennine drizzle) is excellent. I don't know much about the College per se, except that I have heard some people don't rate it much academically. I would have thought that is less important as general formation and especially the solid foundation you would get in liturgy and spirituality. It is definitely Catholic in ethos but in no way precious and there are a number of evangelically-inclined students. The benefit of living alongside a dedicated monastic community must be substantial.

[PS. Sorry Jade, I have just seen your other post. I really hope and pray some finance will be forthcoming... that is just too bad.]

---

My own priest went to Mirfield so I have heard good things about it. I actually know that part of the country very well - and would agree re academics v general formation.
 

---

Posted by Ceannaideach (# 12007) on :
 
I'm filling in a registration form for a Dioscesan Panel and tripped over a sticking point.

The Question asks:

Briefly describe yourself and your temperament, including your gifts and preferences, strengths and weaknesses.

But what, in this context, do preferences refer to?

Churchmanship perhaps?
 

---

Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
Is it more likely to be about things like: like working in groups; like clear structures and deadlines; like to work alone; tend to be quiet in new situations etc?
That was the sort of thing I wrote for this question. I didn't mention anything to do with church here.
 

---

Posted by Ceannaideach (# 12007) on :
 
That would make sense, I must be being more dense than usual tonight!

Thanks aig.
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Churchmanship might be one but consider:

• Rural, Suburban or Urban
• Children/family, youth/student, professional/singles, retired/elderly etc
• Parish, gathered, chaplaincy (Hospital, Higher Education or Workplace)
• mission or maintenance priority
• stable or transient population
• any specialism such as interfaith, ecumenical, special needs, multi-cultural, immigrant.
• team, group, sole incumbent
• geographical location (would you feel happy accepting a church in an area of the country you are unfamilliar with?)

Now you do not have to pick one from each but if one of those is making your heart skip then I would suggest you may have a preference for it.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Ceannaideach (# 12007) on :
 
And that's something else to mull over.

Cheers Jengie
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Avoid churchmanship unless you can show that you are open and flexible. I think they want ministers and churches to avoid extremes.
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Had a wonderful chat with my boss the other day.

He said the reason I'm struggling so much with being a "traditional priest" is that I'm more of a prophet than anything else.

He said I think outside the box, and when I do think inside the box I notice things that nobody else notices.

How nice is that? Maybe there is hope for me after all.


 

---

Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
Evensong - lovely to hear that. Hope you are feeling happier now .

Harmony Hope
 

---

Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
It's strange, isn't it. When you are in the first part of the discernment process you assume once you are through bap it'll all be plain sailing. Why I assumed this I have no idea, but I sort of did. And now I'm at college and it's great, but also hugely hard. I'm more convinced than ever about my vocation, but I'm also aware of how difficult this path is. Prayers for you, Evensong, and for others who are realising the pain of the calling as well as the joy.
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Thanks HH. Hope things are going well with you

Jenn. You are exactly right. The training itself presents very significant challenges. . .

My husband flipped out tonight . Said he felt he was losing me.. .
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
(((Evensong & Mr E)))

Hang on in there.
 

---

Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
Hugs Evensong. It's such a demanding time for us and our families often get a rough deal. ****ing for you.
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Thanks Sioni and Jenn. Preciate it
 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
I'm signing off for Lent, trying to find some time for reflection and reading...but you are all in my prayers and with all my best wishes.

Harmony Hope
 

---

Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
I'm signing off for Lent, trying to find some time for reflection and reading...but you are all in my prayers and with all my best wishes.

Harmony Hope
 

---

Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
Hello all. Just popping in to say: I have a provisional BAP date.

My word, there's a lot of paperwork!
 

---

Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
Masha - exciting and scary! When will it be?

I'm not looking forward to The Paperwork when my time comes.
 

---

Posted by E Tiddy (# 9201) on :
 
Hello all!

I'm returning afer a break of a couple of years This time I've got a BAP booked for the beginning of May and I'm currently working on my registration form. It's taken about 13 years for me to get to this point!Anyway, I've got a place at cranmer Hall if I'm recommended for training

Best wishes to everyone on this journey. Hopefully I'll see you around. x
 

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Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
I was involved in a weekend for those interested in vocations and found it very helpful to be with others thinking. Considering vocation can be quite a lonely venture. I do recommend this sort of thing.

Not just for what one can get from them, but what can share and give too.
 

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Posted by E Tiddy (# 9201) on :
 
I've got to complete my BAP paperwork by the end of the week. Trouble is it's making me feel sick just thinking about it.
I've waiting so long to get to this point and don't know what to write.

Your prayers would be appreciated. Thank you.
 

---

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
for you E Tiddy.

I'm still dragging my heels. The birth of our first child in April and our new Priest-in-Charge not starting until June seem like very reasonable excuses for not doing anything about the nagging feelings I keep experiencing. Those excuses will always be there, though, won't they...
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Percy B:
I was involved in a weekend for those interested in vocations and found it very helpful to be with others thinking. Considering vocation can be quite a lonely venture. I do recommend this sort of thing.

Not just for what one can get from them, but what can share and give too.

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quote:

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Originally posted by E Tiddy:
I've got to complete my BAP paperwork by the end of the week. Trouble is it's making me feel sick just thinking about it.

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I had to do mine just before Christmas. In the end the only way I could get it done was work at it until about 3.30 in the morning! Too many distractions in the daytime.

 

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Posted by uncletoby (# 13067) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
Don't rule out St Stephen's House. It's a far broader place than the naysayers would have you believe.

Thurible

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They have produced some excellent priests over the year, including women priests.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
So, daily Mass and offices with Benediction weekly, and full Catholic privileges.

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quote:

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Originally posted by uncletoby:
Thanks Thurible.

quote:

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Originally posted by Thurible:
So, daily Mass and offices with Benediction weekly, and full Catholic privileges.

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Out of interest, do they use the Roman Rite?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

I always thought Mirfield was more 'liberal' than The House.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Interesting. Mirfield makes mas compulsory 6/7 days and one of the staff is a woman (our former curate) and that has created tensions for some students when she is presiding.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
I would have thought the only sort of placement parish rare in the Mirfield area compared to Oxford would be traditional rural villages. There is everything else from inner city to suburban to small towns.

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The House is able to offer industrial chaplaincy placements in more abundance that Mirfield because most traditional industry has died out in W. Yorks
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Industry in Oxford? Well, we've got a bit left, I suppose.

In my time, there were placements in:
college chapels
parish churches
hospitals
prisons
schools
homeless shelters

I can't think of any in an industrial setting but that doesn't mean there never are.

Thurible
 

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Posted by orinocco (# 5083) on :
 
Hi all,
Just thiought I would pop in to say that my parish priest has now refered me to the diocesan vocaations time and hopefully I will find out who my vocations advisor will be in the next few weeks. It's taken a long time getting this point and suddenly it's all starting to seem very real and frigthing.
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Well done Orinoco, I hope that you hear soon and that you have a fruitful relationship with your vocations advisors.

I'm still chuntering on, hoping to re-BAP next year. Just found out that a friend is about to start along the path too so we can hopefully bounce ideas off each other.

for everyone, it's been a bit quiet on this thread recently, how are you all getting on?
 

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Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
Things are going well for me right now. I'll be graduating with my M.Div in May and I was approved just last week by my community's superior general to profess final vows. (See explanation of our stages that I wrote earlier on this thread.) It's a nunc pro tunc approval, as I haven't yet been in temporary vows for three years (the minimum before they can become permanent). We'll celebrate my perpetual profession in early September and then I'll be ordained deacon the next day. Priesthood will follow Easter Saturday 2014.

Right now, I'm still awaiting word as to where I'll be assigned. It'll probably be one of our parishes, but could be campus ministry at one of our schools. Wherever it is, I'll report on July 1st, so the people there will be able to see me go from seminarian through deacon to priest within a year. They've had some initial conversations with me about what I'm interested in doing, and I've got another meeting booked for a couple of weeks time where I'm hoping to hear something about what they're thinking. The decision will be made at our provincial council meeting at the end of April.

It's an odd kind of waiting: not anxious, but a little restless. I've come to a point of trust where I'm not anxious about a bad decision being made; but I'm getting sufficiently excited about next year that I am feeling somewhat restless about not knowing where I'll be spending it.
 

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Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
Hello again,

Just realised I ignored a question upthread - sorry! I plead paperwork as an excuse.

But...it's all in!



I have never seen so much admin and never described myself so many times but it's done. Woo hoo. I bought a packet of Veggie Percy Pigs to celebrate. Living it up...

I'm going at the end of May so let's see how I get on. I'll let you know!
 

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Posted by orinocco (# 5083) on :
 
I now have a date for meeting with my vocations advisor. Does anyboby know what questions they are likely to ask?
 

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Posted by Ceannaideach (# 12007) on :
 
For your first meeting, most likely questions to get to know you a little better and to get to know your faith and your sense of calling.

It can seem terrifying to contemplate, but just relax, the vocations advisor is there to help you discern what God may be calling you to do.

In other news I've been recommended for Lay Reader training as a result of my diocesan panel interview.
 

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Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
As Ceannaideach said, they want to get to know you.

They might also ask 'Why?'

As in, why do you feel this is right? Why this particular expression of ministry? That sort of thing. But I suppose that might depend on the process. I only saw a vocations adviser once and then was referred to the DDO because that seems to be how it works here! I've heard of people doing a lot of work woth advisers elsewhere in the country so...

Hope it goes well for you. I've found the process thus far to be really good and enjoyable. Except the paperwork.

Well done Ceannaideach! That's very exciting. A friend of mine is training to be a Reader and she is loving it.

As for my process and impending BAP:

WAAAAAAHHH!

Ahem.

That is all.

[ 06. April 2013, 19:39: Message edited by: Masha ]
 

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Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by orinocco:
I now have a date for meeting with my vocations advisor. Does anyboby know what questions they are likely to ask?

---

I came from a big diocese where the vocations advisors did a lot of the early work with often quite vague vocations. I think I saw mine about 4 times over a year and then I was passed onto the DDO. From memory the only question she asked at the first interviews was 'would you like tea?' and then all she had to say was 'tell me your story' and the hour was gone! There was some stuff about data protection and the process but that was it.

It is very scarey putting your head above the parapet but all the VA and DDOs I've come across are genuinely trying to help discern a vocation which may be to reader ministry or ordained ministry or something else.

Unless your story is one like this of course where details have been only slightly changed:

You have recently been converted to Christianity and during the recent interegnum used every opportunity to get your mitts on the keys of the vicarage, seeing off the church wardens, PCC, the retired clergy and the flower guild who have been part of the leadership team for years. Now you now want that calling to leadership confirmed by the national church so that you can get back at the new priest in post who has to the great relief of all concerned shown you the door.

You can tell this is an exageration as no one gets past the flower guild who all have the archdeacon/bishop/dioceasen enforcers on speed dial as they knew them when the were young Kenneth/Sue/Monty in Sunday School.

I hope the interview goes well.

[ 08. April 2013, 08:53: Message edited by: Poppy ]
 

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Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
This thread is a bit quiet at the moment.
Does this mean that all shippies in the discernment process are deeply introverted, paranoid or technophobes?
Or are we all just too busy to post?
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Hello aig
I am plodding on waiting to re-BAP next year. Just keeping my hand in with the DDO and being indispensable in the parish, ha ha ha.

How is everyone else?
for us all
 

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Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceannaideach:

In other news I've been recommended for Lay Reader training as a result of my diocesan panel interview.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sir Kevin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceannaideach:

In other news I've been recommended for Lay Reader training as a result of my diocesan panel interview.

---

I have been a lay reader or lector in two different RC parishes for several years. I really enjoy it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by aig:
This thread is a bit quiet at the moment.
Does this mean that all shippies in the discernment process are deeply introverted, paranoid or technophobes?
Or are we all just too busy to post?

---

I'm veering between attempting to practise the virtue of patience and being relieved that I haven't heard from the Bishop in almost a year!
 

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Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
I am entering the last term at college meltdown - due to essays, dissertation(which would be OK) - but then there are forms for many, many people, and houses and meetings with incumbents. I trust at some point it may slow down a bit?
 

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Posted by Codepoet (# 5964) on :
 
I have not posted on here for a while, and wonder if I am still welcome on this thread (tell me if I am not, and I will start another one!) but at the root of my situation is a struggling with a deep sense of calling.
So I think I first posted on this thread in 2006 when I started the discernment process. Others on this thread have supported me through to BAP, the struggles of college and the pre-ordination excitment. Now towards the end of my curacy I am looking for a "proper job".
I have discovered that this is a very difficult thing to talk about. There are now people with whom I have active pastoral relationships who would be hurt if they heard that I was looking to move on, and yet the training post is time limited so I have to move on by a certain time. I have looked at and considered lots of options, and now am at a stage where I am preparing for my first interview. To get to this point requires a huge investment of time and energy - carefully reading profiles, trying to understand parishes, and decyphering what sort of person they are looking for. Obviously it is a very self reflecive exercise too, and ultimately is about being part of a group of people discerning the will of God.
Like many, I do not much enjoy competitive interview situations, and am troubled by the fact that this is the first time in the process of ministerial discernment that what I believe to be a sense of calling to a particular role can only be affirmed if others are to be told that they are not considered to have such a call. This is where all this vocations stuff meets the hard reality of pounds and pence.
I have been moved to write this on discovering that I will be interviewing alongside 5 others next week. I had hoped that I might be one of 4 at the most and if I was lucky 3 even, and am now wondering how I will cope with the likely outcome of having to come to terms with accepting that what I thought was a sense of calling was wrong, potentially several times over before the next chapter of ministry becomes clear for me.
Do please pray for me.
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
We will.

(....and i'll leave it to others to impart more words)
 

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Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :
 


Does it help to think of it as group discernment rather than competitive interview?
 

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Posted by geroff (# 3882) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Codepoet:

I have been moved to write this on discovering that I will be interviewing alongside 5 others next week. I had hoped that I might be one of 4 at the most and if I was lucky 3 even,
Do please pray for me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by geroff:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Codepoet:

I have been moved to write this on discovering that I will be interviewing alongside 5 others next week. I had hoped that I might be one of 4 at the most and if I was lucky 3 even,
Do please pray for me.

---

Does this mean you will be actually sitting alongside others or will you be touring the parish whilst one other is being interviewed and another one is hiding in the church office?

---

My point is there are 5 other candidates. Obviously interviews are seperate, as are parish tours I believe. However the (in)famous "death by quiche" is everyone in together. There is also an (inappropriate in my opinion) involvment of partners. I understand that my partner might want to be involved in looking around the parish (or at least the house) - as it is she is working that day and trusts me to make important decisions, however I do not understand why the church wardens' partners and the selectors' partners need to meet the candidates.
I am not looking forward to a room full of around 25 people all trying to find out if I will support their personal religious fetish or not. "Are you married? Is your wife good at children's work? Will you keep the parish pantomine going? Can you play guitar? etc etc"
 

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Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
Don't be afraid Codepoet. Trust in the God we pray to, and be yourself. It wouldn't matter if there was one other candidate or 21, if God wants you there the door will be opened. Another door will open if this one doesn't. The Holy Spirit will guide you. Hold on tight and don't be daunted.

The people there will be your parishioners, potentially. Treat them as you naturally would, engage with them, love them. Everything else is of lesser importance.
 

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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
I am feeling more and more called to this, but having a mental health setback. My body is being an arse. Prayers appreciated.
 

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Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
Prayers for you, Jade Constable, for God to give you the peace that passes all understanding.
 

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Posted by SyNoddy (# 17009) on :
 
My only experience is from the other side of the parish interview situation and I've only been involved twice. The first was similar to how you describe, Codepoet, but without the partners thing. However it wasn't simply wardens and the parish reps but the entire PCC at the 'trial by quiche'! We couldn't imagine a scenario where we didn't at least lay eyes on our potential new shepherd before he or she was presented to us by the Bishop.
The other occasion was one where my involvement was as part of one of a number of interview panels set up in various locations across a group of parishes. That event was more of a 'challenge Anneka' affair with the various candidates navigating themselves around a rural area armed only with a map and a timetable of which church or village hall to be in at any set time. Then everyone, and I do mean everyone, sat down to lunch in an old estate school house!
Both occasions had moments of pure surrealism but I'm confident that God put the right person in the job despite our best man made efforts to confound His plans for both the person and the parish involved. Please try not to stress too much. It's rather like a marriage, it has to suit both partners so be yourself, and daft as this may sound, try not to take any of it too personally. All will be well.
 

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Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on :
 
I know very little about BAPS (save when filled with cheese and pickle!) and VAs etc. but I'd like to say that I pop in on this thread from time to time to read where you are up to, and to throw a little prayer upwards for you all.
Before coming to France I was a LLM (the Oxford diocese name for a lay reader) but I've kind of lost my way a bit now. But for you all, and somehow especially for Codepoet, I put you firmly in God's hands.
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
I don't see how not getting this parish is a challenge to your sense of call or the other candidates sense of call codepoet.

I'd see it rather as a challenge of navigating the menagerie that is job interviews.

Or are you concerned that you're not called to parish ministry?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Codepoet:

I am not looking forward to a room full of around 25 people all trying to find out if I will support their personal religious fetish or not. "Are you married? Is your wife good at children's work? Will you keep the parish pantomine going? Can you play guitar? etc etc"

---

Lord have mercy neither would I.

Be yourself. Be firm. There's only two types of people in the world after all: clergy that try and change their parishioners and parishioners that try and change their clergy.

I had an interesting chat with an experienced clergyperson a few nights ago that was asked by his bishop to take over an inner city parish that had only 14 ppl remaining in it. The parish has grown and is now doing well. I asked him how and why.

He said the secret to successful ministry in a particular place is when the leadership style of the clergyperson gels well with the leadership style of the parish.

And we're all different of course. Neither good nor bad - just different. And I would hope the selection process for clergy in parishes would reflect that.


 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
Amen

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On a slightly different subject,

Prayers for those now waiting for the results of their BAP
and also
Prayers for those preparing to pack for their BAP.


 

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Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Codepoet: Are you in the Church of England? Then you should give the Clergy Appointments Advisor a call, and make an appointment with him. He gives very good advice, practical and (assuming it's still John Lee) spiritual. He operates out of the Wash House at Lambeth Palace, but travels round the country meeting with people within their dioceses at different times of the year.

A lot of people think you only go see the Clergy Appointments Advisor when you're getting desperate. This is not so.

Incidentally, I've made some very good friends at those horrible, horrible 'death by quiche' lunches and parish tours. Never with a successful candidate, it must be said. The unsuccessful ones tend to do the bonding. I was one of the unsuccessful ones too---until I came to Summerisle, where they turned out to want me.

[ 17. May 2013, 22:03: Message edited by: Amos ]
 

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Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Sorry to double-post: I never brought my spouse to an interview for a post. The life of a clergy spouse is hard enough without being looked over in that way. I did know a number of single clergy who acquired fiancées for the purpose of the interview.

The system can make one very cynical. This is where the CAA comes in. He's seen it all and is still a decent person and a man of faith.

There's a lot more advice I could give you that isn't printable on a public forum. Do PM me if you wish with any specific questions.
 

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Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 
Prayers for you Codepoet.

It's all rather different from the Baptist Union set up (shudders) - interviews with Deacons, 2 Sundays preaching on trial as it were and a weekend (yes generally a whole one) on show to the congregation. In my case I faced an open congregation forum of over 120 people the last time ......
 

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Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
A week to go before BAP.

Where is a 'hyperventilation' emoticon when you need one?

Hard thing is: Someone who was a better candidate than me was turned down a couple of weeks ago. On his second time through. Scary. Awful for him, poor bloke. And made me wonder if I should just pull out now!

[ 21. May 2013, 19:51: Message edited by: Masha ]
 

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Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
Hang on in there, Masha. God will open the right doors.
 

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Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on :
 
Go well, Masha. I was there this time last year and I'm going back for a second attempt this time next year!

 

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Posted by harmony hope (# 4070) on :
 
For everyone who is preparing to go to BAP.
 

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Posted by GreenPixie (# 16522) on :
 
I'm finding it very interesting reading about eveyone's experiences. I'm off to my my BAP next month but I'm a bit of an oddity- I've applied for MSE training (Minister in Secular Employment) which would link into my work as a nurse.
 

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Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Welcome to The Ship, GreenPixie.

I hope you find your right direction.

Meanwhile, Board descriptions map what goes where, and Hosts are here to provide extra signage if needed.

Firenze
All Saints Host
 

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Posted by GreenPixie (# 16522) on :
 
Thank you kindly!
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :