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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: High Church CofE in London
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Ratratrat
Apprentice
# 18669
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Posted
Hi everyone,
I'm moving back to London soon and looking for new places of worship to try. I realise that London is full of High Church/Anglo-Catholic places and that these have probably been discussed to death on this forum.
However, I'm looking for a more specific kind of church - one that is sometimes called "Prayer Book Catholic": one that worships in the language of the BCP and hears the readings from the AV, that doesn't sacrifice the daily office in favour of weekday morning and evening masses, one that doesn't fill its liturgy with unnecessary Latin or imitates Roman doctrine too much (an Angelus after Mass doesn't bother me, nor does occasional Benediction, but things like praying for the Pope rather than for the Queen or the Archbishop really do).
I'd be very grateful if anyone could help me find such a church, If such churches still exist.
Posts: 17 | Registered: Sep 2016
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I think All Saints, Margaret Street would fit the bill of 'prayerbook Catholic'.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
A big place, London! Any district in mind or are you prepared to travel?
St Michael's Cornhill in the City would have ticked your boxes a few years ago. I'm not quite sure now, but maybe worth finding out. Or St Bartholomew the Great Smithfield, though they do tend to use Latin sometimes.
I expect the number of churches that use the AV for the readings is vanishingly small. The old flagship All Saints Margaret Street uses (as far as I know) 'trad' language at the High Mass but I would think the readings are from NRSV.
There are bound to be a few 'high and dry' churches here and there in the more upper-class suburbs.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Ratratrat
Apprentice
# 18669
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Posted
Thanks for your replies, guys. I should have clarified that I meant central London - basically just about anywhere in zone 1.
I am very glad that ASMS seems less embarrassed to be CofE than many other A-C parishes, but if there's one thing that grates me ever so slightly it's the mish-mash between trad and modern language in their Mass. I'm not talking so much about the readings as about the psalms and the chants (the introit, etc.). Surely it makes more sense to go either with traditional language or modern language the whole way through, rather than to jar the congregation's ears by switching back and forth? (I do realise I'm being a bit picky here....)
Posts: 17 | Registered: Sep 2016
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I used to get slightly vexed by that switch between latin, old english and contemporary english in mass settings, introits and motets etc, but now I see it more as a fact of what they are and what the church is - it's on a continuum. There are aspects of the distance past, the near past and the present. More and more, it strikes me that this is how it should be because it is what the church manifestly is.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ratratrat
Apprentice
# 18669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I used to get slightly vexed by that switch between latin, old english and contemporary english in mass settings, introits and motets etc, but now I see it more as a fact of what they are and what the church is - it's on a continuum. There are aspects of the distance past, the near past and the present. More and more, it strikes me that this is how it should be because it is what the church manifestly is.
That's an interesting way of looking at it, and certainly one that I hadn't considered. However, I would have thought that in a liturgy that uses traditional language, the place for contemporary language is not in the set, ancient parts of the liturgy (like the introit and motet) but in, for example, the prayers of the people and (obviously) in the sermon.
Posts: 17 | Registered: Sep 2016
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I wonder if you need to look for a said service. I suspect then you would find the language is consistent in such places.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I think All Saints, Margaret Street would fit the bill of 'prayerbook Catholic'.
I attended a First Mass of Sunday there one Saturday a few weeks back and found it very comforting.
A lovely place, and I hope to return there soon.
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I suspect it uses Common Worship rather than 1662 and it may be too far out of the centre for you, but St Mary's, Lewisham appears to have the office morning and evening rather than daily mass. I haven't had any contact with it for some years, but it used to be inspirationally multi-ethnic.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Ratratrat
Apprentice
# 18669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I suspect it uses Common Worship rather than 1662 and it may be too far out of the centre for you, but St Mary's, Lewisham appears to have the office morning and evening rather than daily mass. I haven't had any contact with it for some years, but it used to be inspirationally multi-ethnic.
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll look into it, even though Lewisham would be quite a Sunday morning commute.
Andras: agreed, ASMS really is a wonderful church.
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Ascension-ite
Shipmate
# 1985
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Posted
I have no direct experience of either, but perhaps St. Paul's Knightsbridge and St/ Bartholomew the Great may fit the bill, think they're both more Anglo than Papalist. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who as been to either lately.
Posts: 318 | From: Old Dominion | Registered: Dec 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I do have ssome sympathy with the wishes expressed in the OP. But may I suggest something which may make me come across as bit of a wet blanket? When you move back, try your parish church first, or at least try the churches which are local to you, and although they'll almost certainly fall short of your ideal, see whether you think you can live with them- if necessary, topped up with the occasional dip into ASMS or somewhere in the week. That way, putting up as you will with the occasional liturgical infelicity and the odd mildly irritating idiosyncrasy, but worshipping as you will with people you may bump into when you're out shopping, you may end up with a rather messier but ultimately richer and dare one say it more catholic experience than you would at the one church in the whole metropolis whose liturgy absolutely suits you, to which you have a 90 minute journey by public transport each way.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Albertus has put it very kindly. The really Church of England thing is to go to your parish church. Or at least somewhere within walking distance.
And if you are catholic, Christ will be present in the elements of the eucharist whatever the personal opinion of the priest and congregation.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Which then begs the wider question - for all Christians, not just Anglicans - of whether selecting our church should be a "consumer choice" of "what ticks the boxes" for us as individuals, or whether it should be identifying with our local Christian community, glitches and all, which is seeking to serve Christ in the locality?
Ultimately there may be some expressions of Christian worship we find we cannot live with - but there is usually a choice of churches in an area, especially in cities, so perhaps we can find one in which we find ourselves reasonably comfortable ("topping up", as has been suggested above, with occasional visits elsewhere - I occasionally like being able to go to Cathedral Evensong, for example).
[ 27. September 2016, 08:39: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I agree with Albertus, Venbede and Baptist Trainfan. Those are very good points.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Which then begs the wider question - for all Christians, not just Anglicans - of whether selecting our church should be a "consumer choice" of "what ticks the boxes" for us as individuals, or whether it should be identifying with our local Christian community, glitches and all, which is seeking to serve Christ in the locality?
Ultimately there may be some expressions of Christian worship we find we cannot live with.
Or which cannot live with us. This is oft forgotten.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ascension-ite:
I have no direct experience of either, but perhaps St. Paul's Knightsbridge and St/ Bartholomew the Great may fit the bill, think they're both more Anglo than Papalist. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who as been to either lately.
St Bartholomew the Great was visited by a mystery worshipper during Holy Week this year. Can't find a report for any churches in Knightsbridge.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
St. Giles'-in-the-Fields could very well suit you. Sunday services are 9.00 said Communion, 11.00 Sung Eucharist & 18.30 choral/sung Evensong. It is not a church I know well, but I have been there if for no other reason than to do bell-ringing. I met the Vicar, the Revd. Alan Carr, recently. I know that St. Giles' has a reputation for using BCP.
To quote your second paragraph in the OP (from your perspective - not from mine), St. Silas' Kentish Town is a church to be avoided, which does everything you don't want!
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
I'd agree with Albertus and venbede if the BCP were still the usual basis of Sunday worship. But these days, you can wind up with anything from a charismatic hymn sandwich to a Eucharistic celebration virtually indistinguishable from the RC Novus Ordo. Those are, obviously, extremes--but my point is that if churches are marketing themselves according to a consumer model (by providing niche products), how can parishioners be blamed for shopping?
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
St Michael's Cornhill in the City would have ticked your boxes a few years ago.
That was precisely my first thought on reading the OP (although IIRC they do fiddle with the BCP a bit when it comes to Holy Communion).
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
St Giles in the Fields and St Mary Abbots are both Olde Language with minor BCP tweaks. Neither might be 'catholick' enough, depending on how one defines that sensibility.
St Paul's Knightsbridge is Olde Language and smells and bells.
Does anyone know what Holy Trinity Sloane Square is like? It seems to me they were Olde Language at one time but I suspect no longer.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I'd agree with Albertus and venbede if the BCP were still the usual basis of Sunday worship. But these days, you can wind up with anything from a charismatic hymn sandwich to a Eucharistic celebration virtually indistinguishable from the RC Novus Ordo. Those are, obviously, extremes--but my point is that if churches are marketing themselves according to a consumer model (by providing niche products), how can parishioners be blamed for shopping?
I think it's accepted that if the basics aren't there (celebration of the Eucharist each Sunday done in good order) then one might have to consider going elsewhere, but that the starting point should be your parish church. If you can live with it, even if not perfect, you should try.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
BCP can mean different things to different people, with or without the customary additions and deviations.
One feature seldom or never to be found, is the lengthy Exhortations, there to be read out if so desired, in the middle of the service.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The CofE wants to have its cake and eat it. It likes the idea of loyalty to the local church, but allows and encourages diversity (including the funding of Fresh Expressions) which is obviously going to undermine that loyalty.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Utrecht Catholic
Shipmate
# 14285
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Posted
I recently attended the Choral Eucharist at St.Michael's Cornhill.
The liturgy was a beautiful Prayer Book Eucharist,close to the BCP 1928/Interim Rite,however there were some enrichments : Behold the Lamb of God and Lord I am not worthy that thou shouldst come under my roof,but speak the word only and my soul shall be healed.
Incense was used,however I found the ceremonial rather Reformed Catholic.
The three readings were taken from Year C.
The music and hymns were sublime.
Sloane Street is using the modern C.W.rite, two readings.
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Robert Kennedy
Posts: 220 | From: Dordrecht | Registered: Nov 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
St Giles in the Fields and St Mary Abbots are both Olde Language with minor BCP tweaks.
In other words, Common Worship, Order Two.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Ratratrat
Apprentice
# 18669
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Posted
Thanks for the responses, everyone. I've found this discussion really interesting to read.
I'm very much a parish church kind of guy when I'm at home (by home, I mean in the country, where I grew up). But I think cities, and London in particular, are different. What is a parish church when there's another church 50 yards further away in the opposite direction?
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
Two others to add to existing suggestions are St James Garlikhythe in the City which is similar to St Michael Cornhill, perhaps a notch lower in terms of ceremonial. Also St George Hanover Square has a BCP Choral Eucharist, no bells or smells. St Giles is probably the church that uses the BCP closest to the 1662 rite, but I think sees itself as Central rather than Prayer Book Catholic.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ratratrat:
Thanks for the responses, everyone. I've found this discussion really interesting to read.
I'm very much a parish church kind of guy when I'm at home (by home, I mean in the country, where I grew up). But I think cities, and London in particular, are different. What is a parish church when there's another church 50 yards further away in the opposite direction?
Sure. But as a very general rule, better the church 50 yards outside your parish than the church 15 miles outside it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Deputy Verger
Shipmate
# 15876
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Posted
I think you might be right at home at St Magnus the Martyr, by London Bridge and the Monument. Nosebleed high and a gorgeous Wren church.
Posts: 475 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2010
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Ratratrat
Apprentice
# 18669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Ratratrat:
Thanks for the responses, everyone. I've found this discussion really interesting to read.
I'm very much a parish church kind of guy when I'm at home (by home, I mean in the country, where I grew up). But I think cities, and London in particular, are different. What is a parish church when there's another church 50 yards further away in the opposite direction?
Sure. But as a very general rule, better the church 50 yards outside your parish than the church 15 miles outside it.
Very much agreed.
Will definitely check out St Michael's Cornhill.
As far as St Magnus is concerned, I thought it's reputation was one of being rather more Anglo-Papalist?
One rather off-topic but I suppose loosely related musing I had this morning: I'm still relatively young and I've never heard the Decalogue, or even just the Summary of the Law, recited in a CofE church. Is this just not done anywhere anymore, and if so, when did it start going "out of fashion"?
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ratratrat:
One rather off-topic but I suppose loosely related musing I had this morning: I'm still relatively young and I've never heard the Decalogue, or even just the Summary of the Law, recited in a CofE church. Is this just not done anywhere anymore, and if so, when did it start going "out of fashion"?
Without a doubt it must be done somewhere!
I think that the introduction of Series 2 and all that in the late 60s was its death knell. Even before that I seem to remember the Summary of the Law as being more usual.
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
The Decalogue is rare but tends to be used much more in Lent. The summary of the law on the other hand is used in quite a few churches, but in London seems more popular in the suburbs. In my neck of the woods it tends to be used in sunny side of middle parishes.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Colin Stephenson tells the story of when he was Administrator of Walsingham and helped out at nearby rural parishes where he tried to give them what they were used to.
He used the BCP Holy Communion as set and afterwards a farmer came up and said to him “Thank you very much, vicar, but we’re not so high church as you are so we don’t have the ten commandments.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ratratrat:
Originally posted by Albertus:
As a very general rule, better the church 50 yards outside your parish than the church 15 miles outside it.
quote:
Very much agreed.
I imagine that most churchgoing Anglicans do attend their local church. But I think it's unwise to be too critical of those who don't.
Making a 'general rule' out of it would require many Anglicans to go to church on autopilot, totally unconcerned with quality, theology or suitability (e.g. if they have young children but there's no proper Sunday School - which is a real issue for many churches) or simple atmosphere at their local church. It's surely not a recipe for a high degree of lay engagement.
I should think such an approach also does very little for evangelism (although I realise that the CofE is not designed to prioritise evangelism). And presumably it creates the kinds of Christians who prove their loyalty to the local church they never attend by not joining another church that might suit them better (although, again, this may not be an unacceptable attitude to have in the CofE).
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
A general rule, in the sense of a rule of thumb, a starting principle for making a decision.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
More fully (missed edit window)
A general rule, in the sense of a rule of thumb, at the very least a starting principle for making a decision, more strongly a rebuttable presumption. And this is perhaps sometimes a difference between 'Anglicans' and 'Church of England (in Wales, of Ireland[in some places?]) people'. I count myself among the latter
[ 03. October 2016, 18:57: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I do know what the term means. My point is that it's problematic.
Being British, both you and I are referring to the British Anglicanism, specifically the CofE. It's paradoxical that England has what may be the most diverse forms of Anglicanism in the world, yet the assumption is that 'as a general rule' local CofE folk should attend the local church regardless of this diversity.
The diversity should be reduced, then the attraction of going elsewhere would be less. Of course, attendance would also drop, but you can't have everything!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Ratratrat
Apprentice
# 18669
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Posted
Can anyone tell me anything about worship at St Mary Bourne Street?
Posts: 17 | Registered: Sep 2016
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Deputy Verger:
I think you might be right at home at St Magnus the Martyr, by London Bridge and the Monument. Nosebleed high and a gorgeous Wren church.
Hence my mention above of St. Silas' Kentish Town, without going into detail, suggesting the opposite sentiment - i.e. a church to be avoided. That is undoubtedly nose-bleed high and anglo-papalist. It is in fact, Brompton Oratory Mark2.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ratratrat:
Can anyone tell me anything about worship at St Mary Bourne Street?
Very high but they do use the BCP Eucharistic Rite (Interim Rite of course) with traditional language. Sung Credo, good choir and exotic mass settings.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ratratrat:
Can anyone tell me anything about worship at St Mary Bourne Street?
Included within the same benefice, is St. Barnabas' Pimlico, only a few streets away from St. Mary's, so the worship at both Churches is similar to identical.
I went to the previous Parish Priest's farewell Mass (at St. Barnabas' Church) on 2nd. February last year (2015) on the Feast of Candlemass, of course. As Bishop's Finger indicates, it is still in Interregnum, 20 months later.
Once the new PP is appointed and in post, watch this space for any changes that may take place there. I think given the reputation of these Churches, changes in worship-style and/or churchmanship will be minimal and not too drastic.
Other shipmates have beaten me to it, in giving a flavour of these two Churches within the same Benefice.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
/minor tangent/
It seems that St. Barnabas, Pimlico, is now once more flying solo, and is no longer in plurality with Bourne Street.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Ratratrat
Apprentice
# 18669
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Posted
Another question: abroad, and feeling a little homesick, I've been listening to a few choral evensongs from the Radio 3 archive. Even in the 90s, the readings are invariably from the AV. When did the AV start being phased out of English churches?
Posts: 17 | Registered: Sep 2016
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Are you sure you weren't hearing the RSV? It was still thees and thous until the NRSV.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
The Prayer Book Society is of the opinion that if you are doing a 1662 service, you should be using the AV.
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Are you sure you weren't hearing the RSV? It was still thees and thous until the NRSV.
It was thee and thou for God, and you for humans. Hence questionably orthodox.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
The Prayer Book Society is of the opinion that if you are doing a 1662 service, you should be using the AV.
That would seem to be consistent.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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