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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: High Church CofE in London
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
St Giles in the Fields and St Mary Abbots are both Olde Language with minor BCP tweaks. Neither might be 'catholick' enough, depending on how one defines that sensibility.
St Paul's Knightsbridge is Olde Language and smells and bells.
Does anyone know what Holy Trinity Sloane Square is like? It seems to me they were Olde Language at one time but I suspect no longer.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I'd agree with Albertus and venbede if the BCP were still the usual basis of Sunday worship. But these days, you can wind up with anything from a charismatic hymn sandwich to a Eucharistic celebration virtually indistinguishable from the RC Novus Ordo. Those are, obviously, extremes--but my point is that if churches are marketing themselves according to a consumer model (by providing niche products), how can parishioners be blamed for shopping?
I think it's accepted that if the basics aren't there (celebration of the Eucharist each Sunday done in good order) then one might have to consider going elsewhere, but that the starting point should be your parish church. If you can live with it, even if not perfect, you should try.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
BCP can mean different things to different people, with or without the customary additions and deviations.
One feature seldom or never to be found, is the lengthy Exhortations, there to be read out if so desired, in the middle of the service.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The CofE wants to have its cake and eat it. It likes the idea of loyalty to the local church, but allows and encourages diversity (including the funding of Fresh Expressions) which is obviously going to undermine that loyalty.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Utrecht Catholic
Shipmate
# 14285
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Posted
I recently attended the Choral Eucharist at St.Michael's Cornhill.
The liturgy was a beautiful Prayer Book Eucharist,close to the BCP 1928/Interim Rite,however there were some enrichments : Behold the Lamb of God and Lord I am not worthy that thou shouldst come under my roof,but speak the word only and my soul shall be healed.
Incense was used,however I found the ceremonial rather Reformed Catholic.
The three readings were taken from Year C.
The music and hymns were sublime.
Sloane Street is using the modern C.W.rite, two readings.
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Robert Kennedy
Posts: 220 | From: Dordrecht | Registered: Nov 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
St Giles in the Fields and St Mary Abbots are both Olde Language with minor BCP tweaks.
In other words, Common Worship, Order Two.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Ratratrat
Apprentice
# 18669
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Posted
Thanks for the responses, everyone. I've found this discussion really interesting to read.
I'm very much a parish church kind of guy when I'm at home (by home, I mean in the country, where I grew up). But I think cities, and London in particular, are different. What is a parish church when there's another church 50 yards further away in the opposite direction?
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
Two others to add to existing suggestions are St James Garlikhythe in the City which is similar to St Michael Cornhill, perhaps a notch lower in terms of ceremonial. Also St George Hanover Square has a BCP Choral Eucharist, no bells or smells. St Giles is probably the church that uses the BCP closest to the 1662 rite, but I think sees itself as Central rather than Prayer Book Catholic.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ratratrat:
Thanks for the responses, everyone. I've found this discussion really interesting to read.
I'm very much a parish church kind of guy when I'm at home (by home, I mean in the country, where I grew up). But I think cities, and London in particular, are different. What is a parish church when there's another church 50 yards further away in the opposite direction?
Sure. But as a very general rule, better the church 50 yards outside your parish than the church 15 miles outside it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Deputy Verger
Shipmate
# 15876
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Posted
I think you might be right at home at St Magnus the Martyr, by London Bridge and the Monument. Nosebleed high and a gorgeous Wren church.
Posts: 475 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2010
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Ratratrat
Apprentice
# 18669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Ratratrat:
Thanks for the responses, everyone. I've found this discussion really interesting to read.
I'm very much a parish church kind of guy when I'm at home (by home, I mean in the country, where I grew up). But I think cities, and London in particular, are different. What is a parish church when there's another church 50 yards further away in the opposite direction?
Sure. But as a very general rule, better the church 50 yards outside your parish than the church 15 miles outside it.
Very much agreed.
Will definitely check out St Michael's Cornhill.
As far as St Magnus is concerned, I thought it's reputation was one of being rather more Anglo-Papalist?
One rather off-topic but I suppose loosely related musing I had this morning: I'm still relatively young and I've never heard the Decalogue, or even just the Summary of the Law, recited in a CofE church. Is this just not done anywhere anymore, and if so, when did it start going "out of fashion"?
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ratratrat:
One rather off-topic but I suppose loosely related musing I had this morning: I'm still relatively young and I've never heard the Decalogue, or even just the Summary of the Law, recited in a CofE church. Is this just not done anywhere anymore, and if so, when did it start going "out of fashion"?
Without a doubt it must be done somewhere!
I think that the introduction of Series 2 and all that in the late 60s was its death knell. Even before that I seem to remember the Summary of the Law as being more usual.
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
The Decalogue is rare but tends to be used much more in Lent. The summary of the law on the other hand is used in quite a few churches, but in London seems more popular in the suburbs. In my neck of the woods it tends to be used in sunny side of middle parishes.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Colin Stephenson tells the story of when he was Administrator of Walsingham and helped out at nearby rural parishes where he tried to give them what they were used to.
He used the BCP Holy Communion as set and afterwards a farmer came up and said to him “Thank you very much, vicar, but we’re not so high church as you are so we don’t have the ten commandments.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ratratrat:
Originally posted by Albertus:
As a very general rule, better the church 50 yards outside your parish than the church 15 miles outside it.
quote:
Very much agreed.
I imagine that most churchgoing Anglicans do attend their local church. But I think it's unwise to be too critical of those who don't.
Making a 'general rule' out of it would require many Anglicans to go to church on autopilot, totally unconcerned with quality, theology or suitability (e.g. if they have young children but there's no proper Sunday School - which is a real issue for many churches) or simple atmosphere at their local church. It's surely not a recipe for a high degree of lay engagement.
I should think such an approach also does very little for evangelism (although I realise that the CofE is not designed to prioritise evangelism). And presumably it creates the kinds of Christians who prove their loyalty to the local church they never attend by not joining another church that might suit them better (although, again, this may not be an unacceptable attitude to have in the CofE).
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
A general rule, in the sense of a rule of thumb, a starting principle for making a decision.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
More fully (missed edit window)
A general rule, in the sense of a rule of thumb, at the very least a starting principle for making a decision, more strongly a rebuttable presumption. And this is perhaps sometimes a difference between 'Anglicans' and 'Church of England (in Wales, of Ireland[in some places?]) people'. I count myself among the latter
[ 03. October 2016, 18:57: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I do know what the term means. My point is that it's problematic.
Being British, both you and I are referring to the British Anglicanism, specifically the CofE. It's paradoxical that England has what may be the most diverse forms of Anglicanism in the world, yet the assumption is that 'as a general rule' local CofE folk should attend the local church regardless of this diversity.
The diversity should be reduced, then the attraction of going elsewhere would be less. Of course, attendance would also drop, but you can't have everything!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Ratratrat
Apprentice
# 18669
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Posted
Can anyone tell me anything about worship at St Mary Bourne Street?
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Deputy Verger:
I think you might be right at home at St Magnus the Martyr, by London Bridge and the Monument. Nosebleed high and a gorgeous Wren church.
Hence my mention above of St. Silas' Kentish Town, without going into detail, suggesting the opposite sentiment - i.e. a church to be avoided. That is undoubtedly nose-bleed high and anglo-papalist. It is in fact, Brompton Oratory Mark2.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ratratrat:
Can anyone tell me anything about worship at St Mary Bourne Street?
Very high but they do use the BCP Eucharistic Rite (Interim Rite of course) with traditional language. Sung Credo, good choir and exotic mass settings.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ratratrat:
Can anyone tell me anything about worship at St Mary Bourne Street?
Included within the same benefice, is St. Barnabas' Pimlico, only a few streets away from St. Mary's, so the worship at both Churches is similar to identical.
I went to the previous Parish Priest's farewell Mass (at St. Barnabas' Church) on 2nd. February last year (2015) on the Feast of Candlemass, of course. As Bishop's Finger indicates, it is still in Interregnum, 20 months later.
Once the new PP is appointed and in post, watch this space for any changes that may take place there. I think given the reputation of these Churches, changes in worship-style and/or churchmanship will be minimal and not too drastic.
Other shipmates have beaten me to it, in giving a flavour of these two Churches within the same Benefice.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
/minor tangent/
It seems that St. Barnabas, Pimlico, is now once more flying solo, and is no longer in plurality with Bourne Street.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Ratratrat
Apprentice
# 18669
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Posted
Another question: abroad, and feeling a little homesick, I've been listening to a few choral evensongs from the Radio 3 archive. Even in the 90s, the readings are invariably from the AV. When did the AV start being phased out of English churches?
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Are you sure you weren't hearing the RSV? It was still thees and thous until the NRSV.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
The Prayer Book Society is of the opinion that if you are doing a 1662 service, you should be using the AV.
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Are you sure you weren't hearing the RSV? It was still thees and thous until the NRSV.
It was thee and thou for God, and you for humans. Hence questionably orthodox.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
The Prayer Book Society is of the opinion that if you are doing a 1662 service, you should be using the AV.
That would seem to be consistent.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
The Prayer Book Society is of the opinion that if you are doing a 1662 service, you should be using the AV.
I've always thought this is unnecessary, in the same way that frequently, before Vatican II, mass would be said in Latin but the readings in English. The stuff that's read week-by-week (the "ordinary") can be studied and understood over time, but the readings that you get once a year or three years need to be understood immediately.
Perhaps it's a little inconsistent (though the NRSV generally preserves the cadences of the AV fairly well) but worship oughtn't solely to be about preserving a relic of the past.
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Incensed
Shipmate
# 2670
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
/minor tangent/
It seems that St. Barnabas, Pimlico, is now once more flying solo, and is no longer in plurality with Bourne Street.
Ian J.
St Barnabas now has its own priest in charge and are exploring their viability as their own parish again. St Mary's and St Barnabas are quite different places in spite of their shared history with the latter being much more parish church and modern catholic in emphasis I'd say. St Mary's isn't everyone's cup of tea, particularly if worshippers are looking for a particular pigeon hole. Currently served by the wonderful Fr Neil Bunker supported by a number of assisting clergy including the former vicar, Fr Bill Scott.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Just spotted your reply, Incensed. I'm pleased to hear St. Barnabas is doing well, though I doubt if it's quite the OPer's cup of tea..
Do they still host a Mar Thoma congregation? That would be an interesting subject for a Mystery Worshipper report.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Incensed
Shipmate
# 2670
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Just spotted your reply, Incensed. I'm pleased to hear St. Barnabas is doing well, though I doubt if it's quite the OPer's cup of tea..
Do they still host a Mar Thoma congregation? That would be an interesting subject for a Mystery Worshipper report.
IJ
Melkites, yes...
Posts: 241 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2002
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
O - my mistake. Why did I think they hosted a Mar Thoma congo?
I don't think the C of E is in communion with the Melkites, but it's still good that the two congos can share the building.
Re Angloid's question about St. George, Hanover Square, it was mentioned earlier in the thread. Worth a visit by the OPer, I guess.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
Don't think anyone's mentioned The Annunciation Marble Arch yet. It looks pretty high church to me, though to my non-conformist eyes, once you've got robes and liturgy, the rest of all rather the same.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I went to The Annunciation some few years ago for their Feast of Title service. It was indeed quite high up the candle (an image of Our Lady was carried in procession by four stout lads), but I couldn't tell you what rite was used - it was difficult to see the service book, anyway, on account of the drifting smoke...
Beautiful church, though, and well worth a visit.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
Well, there doesn't seem to be an MW report on it yet, and there's 'A Service of Traditional Lessons & Carols' on a Saturday evening next month...... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
Don't think anyone's mentioned The Annunciation Marble Arch yet. It looks pretty high church to me, though to my non-conformist eyes, once you've got robes and liturgy, the rest of all rather the same.
It looks interesting. Inclusive: the assistant priest lives with his civil partner (so do many other priests but don't usually publicise the fact on a website). They seem to have a flourishing Sunday School which suggests a 'normal' parish despite the location. Should be worth checking out. I see that they are no longer directly served by ASMS clergy but maintain a close association.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
It does indeed look interesting, and I wonder what their stance is regarding women priests?
With a Sunday School of around 100 each week, they're clearly doing something right!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
I should think the Annunciation is beyond high church and outright Anglo-Catholic. I even seem to recall it figuring in Yelton's Anglican Papalism, though it appears not to have found favour with FiF in more recent years.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
As you might expect, Sipech, there are as many tribal variations at the high end of the candle as there are across the non-conformist and evangelical spectrum.
I'm not among the cognoscenti as very high Anglican parishes are few and far between in this diocese.
I know enough, though to recognise the broad tribes and also old enough to remember when Geneva gowns and a certain amount of regalia could be found in some non-conformist settings.
As you'll appreciate, there are gradations. So the presence of robes and a degree of ceremonial does not, in and of itself, denote a 'high' inclination.
Where the lower end of the candle blends with the middle and where the middle segues into the 'nose-bleed high' is something the cognoscenti can tell us. FWIW it's as much to do with particular actions and so on as it is to do with garb - and of course, these days plenty of evangelical Anglican clergy eschew any form of clerical dress or regalia. Spoil-sports ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
As you might expect, Sipech, there are as many tribal variations at the high end of the candle as there are across the non-conformist and evangelical spectrum.
I'm not among the cognoscenti but know enough, though to recognise the broad tribes and also old enough to remember when Geneva gowns and a certain amount of regalia could be found in some non-conformist settings.
There are gradations. The presence of robes and a degree of ceremonial does not, in and of itself, denote a 'high' inclination.
Where the lower end of the candle blends with the middle and where the middle segues into the 'nose-bleed high' is something the cognoscenti can tell us. FWIW it's as much to do with particular actions and so on as it is to do with garb - and of course, these days plenty of evangelical Anglican clergy eschew any form of clerical dress or regalia. Spoil-sports ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Where the lower end of the candle blends with the middle and where the middle segues into the 'nose-bleed high' is something the cognoscenti can tell us. FWIW it's as much to do with particular actions and so on as it is to do with garb - and of course, these days plenty of evangelical Anglican clergy eschew any form of clerical dress or regalia. Spoil-sports ...
It's getting more and more difficult to tell! Just as there are many (more?) evangelical clergy who lead worship in street clothes , there are many fewer who would refuse to wear traditional vestments on principle. So you may have a church with an anglo-catholic tradition but an evangelical vicar, and to the non-cognoscenti the services might appear 'high church'. And there always have been catholically-inclined clergy ministering in 'lower' churches. St Augustine's Queens Gate, in London, has a long anglo-catholic tradition and is now an offshoot of Holy Trinity Brompton, who I understand maintain the morning Sung Mass alongside popular gospel services.
The main distinction at the top of the candle now is between Forward in Faith (the anti-women-priest organisation) and the rest; just as I imagine there are Reform churches - evangelical, not keen on women priests and even less keen on gay ones - in amongst the less doctrinaire evangelical ones. These differences may be expressed in the style of worship but it isn't an infallible guide.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
St Augustine's AIUI moved to vers pop in surplice and stole.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Ratratrat
Apprentice
# 18669
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Posted
Hello all, hope you've had a very blessed Christmas.
Could anyone who's familiar with it tell me anything about the worship at the Temple Church other than what's written on their website (choral BCP services with *Mattins* as the main Sunday service - you don't see that very often).
Thanks all.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Welcome! The Temple Church has been Mystery Worshipped once (at Evensong): the reviewer describes it as "Very middle Anglican, not high ... but very formal."
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Wow. I went on a psycho synthesis retreat with him 15 years ago or so at a Jesuit retreat house at Warrington
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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