Ship of Fools: Christmas Sermons

Thread: Christmas Sermons Board: Ecclesiantics / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

Does anybody remember Christmas sermons? Everybody knows why they are at church on Christmas. Same with Easter. What can you really say different year after year? This year, I'll need two Christmas sermons. For the Easter Vigil, I've started reading the Chrysostom Easter Sermon. I'm thinking this year I'll read the Betjeman Christmas poem and call it good.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Good idea!

There's a sense in which the Christmas liturgies tell the story by themselves, IYSWIM, and render any other words superfluous (same goes for Palm Sunday, Good Friday, and Easter Day, IMHO).

Our beloved Father F***wit will no doubt drag a mention of his Courtship Of, And Marriage To, His Lovely Second Wife* into at least one of his Christmas sermons.... [Projectile]

(* despite the fact that most of his rapidly-diminishing congregation are widowed, divorced, Living In Sin, asexual, bisexual, or celibate by choice.)

IJ

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Does anybody remember Christmas sermons?

Unfortunately, yes. Some of the most memorable sermons I've heard have been on Christmas Eve -- because they have been the worst sermons I have ever heard. Four of them (in three different churches -- none of them my current one) spring to mind. I won't describe them for anonymity's sake.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

I actually tune out on most sermons unless they is given by significant preachers. I tend to think that most sermons are redundant when there are several Bible readings, prayers, hymns, psalms and Communion liturgy.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Christmas sermons are tricky. But, knowing that folk come to church who don't come at other times of the year, I there is a place for a short and pithy sermon which strips back some of the sentimentality surrounding the season and relates the Incarnation to "real life".

In passing, I think that there is a danger in churches that Christmas is the best-attended and least theologically-explained event of the year.

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

I have heard few really successful Christmas sermons. Mostly people seem to end up talking about Easter on the basis that this is the one time of the year when the unsaved come through the doors of the establishment and they need to hear the Gospel™.

My Dad pointed out a while back that the reason preachers all end up talking about Easter at Christmas is that they don’t know how to talk about the incarnation. [Snigger]

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

My most memorable Christmas Sermon was for what was said about it afterwards in the pub.

"Can't believe it, go in for just a few nice carols 'n stuff, and the bleedin' vicar starts goin on an on about Jesus. Ya don' want that when you've got everyone comin in for a bit of Christmas cheer"

"Course e's fuckin talkin about Jesus, it's fuckin Christmas init."

Couldn't write it.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Well, for a start a sermon at a Carol Service isn't on: if you can't get the message of Christmas from the nine lessons then forget it.

As for Midnight Mass: no one has time for anything lengthy; best PP I ever knew used the same formula every year:

At the end of the Prayer and before the Peace he stood on the chancel step and (a) gave out notice about mulled wine/coffee & mince pies after service; (b) announced which charity would get the retiring collection (usually disaster relief), and (c) "May I wish you all a very happy, joyous and blessed Christmas, and may the Peace that Christ came to bring be with you and those you love. The Peace ..."

It worked.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Well done, that PP!

[Overused]

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :

Christmas sermons are always memorable, because nomatter which church you are in, you always hear the same one; albeit with minor variations for congregational context and personal style.

It always revolves around Jesus being the greatest gift ever given and is usually aided by half the year's budget for visual aids. Because it's one of the few times people come to church who don't normally do so, it's invariably evangelistic, but at the same time it's intended to be non-confrontational and inoffensive, so ends up as a bit of a muddle that nobody really likes but doesn't piss off too many.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Well, for a start a sermon at a Carol Service isn't on: if you can't get the message of Christmas from the nine lessons then forget it.

But I don't think people actually listen to the lessons - they're simply a kind of aural scenery (especially if beautifully read from the KJV).

Or else they do listen but fail to understand. It may be true that St. John "St John reveals the mystery of the incarnation" but, IMO, most people don't find it revealing at all.

[ 16. December 2016, 14:30: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

Our rector is a very talented preacher, so I'm sure I'm not doing her justice with the following comment, but we pretty much get the same sermon on Easter and Christmas, delivered for the benefit of folks who drop in once or twice a year.

The basic theme: people want to know if this story is true. All I can tell you for sure is that if you let it be true, it has the power to change your life.

It's actually a pretty solid sermon.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
But I don't think people actually listen to the lessons - they're simply a kind of aural scenery (especially if beautifully read from the KJV).

Or else they do listen but fail to understand. It may be true that St. John "St John reveals the mystery of the incarnation" but, IMO, most people don't find it revealing at all.

I regret I think that's true. Personally, the more I read the In Principe the more profound it becomes, but I think the sequence of none lessons only speaks to those who already know the message they have been selected to get across. Most people don't know enough to pick up the Christian message by implication.

People do need a simple, direct and basic message, in simple, direct and basic language.

Having said that, I've also doubt how much any of us are capable of taking in anything, however exciting or new, at sometime approaching midnight. At that hour of the night, it's more what is happening in the heart that either speaks or doesn't.

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
My most memorable Christmas Sermon was for what was said about it afterwards in the pub.

"Can't believe it, go in for just a few nice carols 'n stuff, and the bleedin' vicar starts goin on an on about Jesus. Ya don' want that when you've got everyone comin in for a bit of Christmas cheer"

"Course e's fuckin talkin about Jesus, it's fuckin Christmas init."

That should go on a Christmas card.

Couldn't write it.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
... the sequence of none lessons ...

Is that a subtle (or even subconscious) suggestion that the Lessons & Carols service has run its course? After all, it was an innovative "fresh expression" when invented back in 1880!

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Yes - from 50 years ago - Fr. Rogers on Dr. Who and the Ancient of Days being an hour or two old.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
My most memorable Christmas Sermon was for what was said about it afterwards in the pub.

"Can't believe it, go in for just a few nice carols 'n stuff, and the bleedin' vicar starts goin on an on about Jesus. Ya don' want that when you've got everyone comin in for a bit of Christmas cheer"

"Course e's fuckin talkin about Jesus, it's fuckin Christmas init."

Couldn't write it.

In the same sort of vein, a friend's nephew accidentally spoke the best Good Friday sermon you could ask for. He was not raised in the church, but loved looking through art books, and one day stumbled on a renaissance depiction of the crucifixion.

Nephew: "Whose the person getting killed here?"

Aunt: "That's Jesus."

Nephew, with a look of distress: "You mean the baby from Christmas!?!?!"

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

I overheard two children discussing optimal birthdays. One opined that it was a disaster to have your birthday on Christmas - it would be ignored by everyone. The other responded "yeah, that's what happened to Jesus".

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Christmas sermons are tricky. But, knowing that folk come to church who don't come at other times of the year, I there is a place for a short and pithy sermon which strips back some of the sentimentality surrounding the season and relates the Incarnation to "real life".

In passing, I think that there is a danger in churches that Christmas is the best-attended and least theologically-explained event of the year.

I agree with that, because people will hear in the familiar carols, readings, and other parts of the liturgy, what they were taught to hear as a child. We're preparing for Lessons & Carols tomorrow, which has me thinking in particular about the rather literal Adam & Eve story you might walk away with, which in my church, is probably taken literally by next to no one. It might not be a bad idea to talk at Christmas about the amazing fact that God became human - not as a "plan B" resulting from human sin, but because God always wanted to be with us that closely.

Posted by sonata3 (# 13653) on :

I've MW'ed maybe 40+ churches over the last eight years, plus spent decades as a church organist/pianist. I've heard a lot of sermons, and I can still recall some of the best, on the Gospel of the Prodigal Son, on Lazarus and the rich man, the woman who persists in seeking justice from a judge, on the Transfiguration (these were Lutheran, Lutheran, Catholic, and Presbytrerian, respectively). But I cannot recall a single Christmas sermon, and only one on Easter - the priest simply read a sermon of St. John Chrysostom (this was at the Easter Vigil).

[ 16. December 2016, 22:10: Message edited by: sonata3 ]

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

I have long worked on the principle of Christmas being a wonderful time to surprise the guests by not having a sermon. Unfortunately in my erstwhile life as a dean the bishop, who rightly claimed the Christmas and easter season as his gig, insisted on preaching dreadful dull sermons, even singing a song at one of them.

It was ordinary. [Disappointed]

OTOH perhaps I'm not unjaundiced.

Posted by Baker (# 18458) on :

Both the dean the dean's assistant, at the Episcopal cathedral where I worship, are simply fantastic preachers. They always manage to take familiar texts(whatever the season) and put a different spin on them. But Christmas doesn't get me excited because the bishop usually takes that sermon. He's earnest but a tad dull.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Unfortunately in my erstwhile life as a dean the bishop, who rightly claimed the Christmas and easter season as his gig, insisted on preaching dreadful dull sermons, even singing a song at one of them.

OK, I'm glad we aren't the only diocese that has had to suffer through a singing bishop. (I have noticed that judges have an inflated view of how funny they are, mostly because as soon as you are sworn in to the bench, the entire bar forces itself to laugh at all of your lame attempts at jokes. Perhaps bishops suffer similarly inflated views of their singing voices.)

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

I've never heard our Bishop sing, but he usually brings his puppet with him, and he is NOT a talented ventriloquist.
[Disappointed]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've never heard our Bishop sing, but he usually brings his puppet with him, and he is NOT a talented ventriloquist.

Is that a literal puppet, in the Archie Andrews sense? Or are you making a comment about his chaplain or some other member of his diocesan staff?

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
Christmas sermons are always memorable, because nomatter which church you are in, you always hear the same one; albeit with minor variations for congregational context and personal style.

True. I can't remember specific Christmas sermons as they all merge into one another. A combination of "remember the homeless, those who are sleeping in shop doorways, as Mary and Joseph had to take the only shelter available", "remember the refugees, as the holy family forced to flee to Egypt". But, I don't tend to go to churches which get a lot of non-regulars on Christmas Day so we're not looking at giving people the one chance of the year to give the Christian gospel.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've never heard our Bishop sing, but he usually brings his puppet with him, and he is NOT a talented ventriloquist.

When Christmas-themed puppet ventriloquism is done tastefully it could be very appropriate for a sermon.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've never heard our Bishop sing, but he usually brings his puppet with him, and he is NOT a talented ventriloquist.

Is that a literal puppet, in the Archie Andrews sense? Or are you making a comment about his chaplain or some other member of his diocesan staff?

Literally -- I give you Bishop Smith and Dexter.

(Dexter -- he sits on the Bishop's right hand, as opposed to Sinister.)

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

@Baptist Trainfan, I thought the Nine Lessons and Carols thing came in at the end of World War One ...

I'll have to Google it now ...

Not a Fresh Expression as such. It didn't involve balloons.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@Baptist Trainfan, I thought the Nine Lessons and Carols thing came in at the end of World War One ...

No and yes: it was invented by Bishop Benson of Truro in 1880, adapted by King's in 1918 and first broadcast from there in 1928.

[ 17. December 2016, 15:16: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
My most memorable Christmas Sermon was for what was said about it afterwards in the pub.

"Can't believe it, go in for just a few nice carols 'n stuff, and the bleedin' vicar starts goin on an on about Jesus. Ya don' want that when you've got everyone comin in for a bit of Christmas cheer"

"Course e's fuckin talkin about Jesus, it's fuckin Christmas init."

Couldn't write it.
In the same sort of vein, a friend's nephew accidentally spoke the best Good Friday sermon you could ask for. He was not raised in the church, but loved looking through art books, and one day stumbled on a renaissance depiction of the crucifixion.

Nephew: "Whose the person getting killed here?"

Aunt: "That's Jesus."

Nephew, with a look of distress: "You mean the baby from Christmas!?!?!"

Not just a Good Friday sermon, that one. It would work very well on Christmas for a minister who wanted to shake up the sheep a bit. I passed it on to my own minister to see what happens.

Posted by JeffTL (# 16722) on :

The one I remember the best was by a Franciscan friar, who managed to keep it to the Incarnation. He emphasized that our savior was laid in a food trough in a barn, though we try to make the whole situation seem more genteel. I also remember a Presbyterian minister who delivered point-of-view short stories of the nativity from the perspective of various bit players (a shepherd, a wise man, an angel, St. Joseph, I don't remember if he ever did Mary).

For Easter, especially the vigil, St. John Chrysostom's homily is the smart move - the scriptures say what needs to be said, for the most part. I recall an Easter Vigil where the Bishop of Chicago somewhat dramatically read it from the font, with the organ returning from its Lenten hiatus right at the climax of the sermon.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JeffTL:
with the organ returning from its Lenten hiatus right at the climax of the sermon.

What? Not at the Gloria? [Eek!]

Posted by MaryLouise (# 18697) on :

Last year Fr P gave an off-the-cuff sermon on horse-racing and how to place winning bets as a seasoned race-goer. I wondered how he would tie this in with the Incarnation but he didn't get there, just glanced at his Smartphone (checking the time, presumably) and wished all of us compliments of the season.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

First 'Christmas' sermon at this eve's Carol Service.

Fr. F. exhorted us to spend the next few days reading and meditating on the words of popular carols, in order to fully understand the wonderful Christmas Gospel.

At least it was brief.

IJ

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baker:
He's earnest but a tad dull.

Episcopal prerequisite, I fear [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:

quote:
a friend's nephew accidentally spoke the best Good Friday sermon you could ask for. He was not raised in the church, but loved looking through art books, and one day stumbled on a renaissance depiction of the crucifixion.

Nephew: "Whose the person getting killed here?"

Aunt: "That's Jesus."

Nephew, with a look of distress: "You mean the baby from Christmas!?!?!"
Not just a Good Friday sermon, that one. It would work very well on Christmas for a minister who wanted to shake up the sheep a bit. I passed it on to my own minister to see what happens.

A salient reminder (not lest to earnest bishops) that we are very much in a post-Christendom era ... my recent battles with, er, ecclesiastical authorities and gate-keepers, was not least because they were maintaining a belief that every one still knows the bible, 39 Articles, and every hymn of Old and Miserable, in Latin, and will willingly rock up every time the church opens its foreboding doors, and quake every time a bishop farts.

But I digress. [Disappointed]

Carry on.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Post-Christendom indeed. Quite why Fr. F. imagines that we all possess copies of hymnbooks (or even The Bethlehem Carol Sheet ), carols for the perusing of and meditating upon, I know not.

Mind you, almost the entire (sparse) congregation was made up of 'regulars', most of whom had skipped Mass this morning, so maybe he reckoned that they knew the most familiar carols anyway. Visitors/unchurched were notable for their absence.

IJ [Disappointed]

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

One of my former parishes had the tradition for the Christmas Day sermon of using the Sermon from Eliot's 'Murder in the Cathedral.' It shook me up a bit the first year, but I grew to look forward to it, and drew more from it each year.

Not to every taste, surely, but worth trying if the priest can read it effectively.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

So, hypothetically, if one were writing a Christmas sermon for the first time and had, say, four days left, how might one approach it what pitfalls might one seek to avoid. Y'know, hypothetically.

Posted by keibat (# 5287) on :

Georgiaboy wrote:

quote:
One of my former parishes had the tradition for the Christmas Day sermon of using the Sermon from Eliot's 'Murder in the Cathedral.' It shook me up a bit the first year, but I grew to look forward to it, and drew more from it each year.

And cf: the several references to reading St John Chrysostom's sermon at the Easter Vigil. This latter is a tradition that I am familiar with, since it has been borrowed in Finland by the local Anglicans [of whom I am one, now in exile back in Brexiting England] from the Orthodox [nb: the O, not the RC, are the prominent trad-cath church in Finnish predominantly secularized-protestant culture].

So when I took the earliest Christmas-themed service in our eleven-church parish cluster deep in rural England, viz: on 2 Advent, I read them John Chrysostom's sermon for Christmas morning – edited down to about 2/3 of its original length and toning down the mock-Tudor translation I found online (reflecting the English Orthodox line that Cranmer (or perhaps Lancelot Andrewes] established the style of language that present-day Orthodox should emulate in order to convey the dignity of the liturgy). Whether the congregation will remember this, I cannot say. But I myself found it satisfying.

Here is the online reference if anyone is interested:
http://malankaraorthodox.tv/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/St.-John-Chrysostom-on-Christmas.pdf

I rather like the idea of the Murder in the Cathedral solution – will have to take a look at it.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've never heard our Bishop sing, but he usually brings his puppet with him, and he is NOT a talented ventriloquist.

When Christmas-themed puppet ventriloquism is done tastefully it could be very appropriate for a sermon.

No, Not puppets. Ever.

They are the very spawn of satan

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Kermit, offspring of the Devil? Hardly!

And I think there is a place for (occasional, well-done) puppetry at family services.

But at this time of years it surely reinforces the idea that Christmas is primarily a festival for the children, rather than the time for some serious reflection on the Incarnation and the challenge to believe.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
So, hypothetically, if one were writing a Christmas sermon for the first time and had, say, four days left, how might one approach it what pitfalls might one seek to avoid. Y'know, hypothetically.

Hypothetically, start by assessing who is likely to be there. Is it the regular congregation, most of whom have sat through countless Christmas sermons including the sermons during Advent just gone? Or is it a church which gets a lot of once or twice a year visitors? Will you have children present? If so, do you want a childrens address getting the "Jesus is Gods gift" theme out of the way, with time for a meatier sermon on the incarnational themes. Are people expecting a half hour service then dash off to whatever else they're doing, or are they expecting a longer service (part of that will depend on the time as well).

Basically, like any other sermon, it has to be prepared for the particular congregation you're preaching too. Which is one reason why I would be hesitant about just reading a sermon someone else delivered to a different congregation (or, the modern option of videos of sermons ad nauseum on the internet).

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
So, hypothetically, if one were writing a Christmas sermon for the first time and had, say, four days left, how might one approach it what pitfalls might one seek to avoid. Y'know, hypothetically.

Further to what Alan has wisely said, would this hypothetical person be flying solo or answerable to an Observing Superior™ ? Flying solo allows so much more room for gospel creativity. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

For the sake of argument, lets specify that the hypothetical preacher is subject only to that most omniscient of observing superiors.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

1. Kermit, offspring of the Devil? Hardly!

2. And I think there is a place for (occasional, well-done) puppetry at family services.

1. Definitel!

2. In the bin? Or, at a push, kept in the bin bag in which they were brought here

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
For the sake of argument, lets specify that the hypothetical preacher is subject only to that most omniscient of observing superiors.

If only there was a way of getting feedback.

My recommendation, like Alan's, would be to tailor it. I prefer to listen to a sermon targeted at someone other than me but where I can see who that group is than a general scatter-gun with something for everyone. As a regular church goer if I sit through a sermon for visitors I'm quite content. (Provided there are visitors of course).

Pick a group, pick a theme, stick to the one theme and don't digress, and then be done.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

If one is going to preach to a church full of only very occasional worshippers, you could do worse than tackle the saccharine "Christmas is really all about children" garbage.

Heard this done a few years ago: preacher agreed with the sentiment, pointing out that in the massacre of the Holy Innocents and the forced exile of the new-born Christ-child, it was indeed all about the children.

Cue complaints all round [Snigger]

Posted by Cathscats (# 17827) on :

You want to avoid one I heard about last year, where the preacher compared the incarnation (God showing us himself) to the preacher himself as a boy wondering what a naked woman looked like and peering through a crack in the bedroom door at his mother... [Frown]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

[Projectile]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Heard this done a few years ago: preacher agreed with the sentiment, pointing out that in the massacre of the Holy Innocents and the forced exile of the new-born Christ-child, it was indeed all about the children.

Cue complaints all round

Was that on Christmas Day or Holy Innocents'? Appropriate for the second (although I get puzzled why it should come before Epiphany). Not appropriate on the 25th.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

So he assumes his (I assume his) churchgoers are voyeurs!!
I agree with the previous [Projectile]

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cathscats:
You want to avoid one I heard about last year [deleted the bit I don't want to think about]

I can't see any occasion where that anecdote would be appropriate, least of all a Christmas sermon. The Incarnational theology that is implied is even more heretical than most of the stuff we normally hear at Christmas (including in the lyrics of many of our carols).

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cathscats:
You want to avoid one I heard about last year, where the preacher compared the incarnation (God showing us himself) to the preacher himself as a boy wondering what a naked woman looked like and peering through a crack in the bedroom door at his mother...

That poor man needs to retire, move, or take a vacation until after Candlemas.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Permanently rather than just until February.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

Well, the question was if anyone remembers Christmas sermons. The answer, in that case, is certainly yes.

My father once visited a church that claimed to poses Jesus' used diaper, which he thought was a spectacular commentary on the incarnation. My temptation, as the father of a two year old, would be to take that a step too far and focus on the gross implications of the incarnation- God coming down and becoming a pooping and puking baby, just like us. Maybe avoid too much of that?

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

I was not present at the service, but the sermon was certain memorable enough for people to be talking about it for quite a while afterwards: one Christmas Eve the previous senior minister at the church where I work discussed the possibility that Mary was pregnant before being married because she had been raped by a Roman soldier.* Opinions about the idea itself were varied, but a lot of people present thought it was highly inappropriate for the occasion, and a few walked out.

*First put forward by Jane Schaberg?

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I was not present at the service, but the sermon was certain memorable enough for people to be talking about it for quite a while afterwards: one Christmas Eve the previous senior minister at the church where I work discussed the possibility that Mary was pregnant before being married because she had been raped by a Roman soldier.* Opinions about the idea itself were varied, but a lot of people present thought it was highly inappropriate for the occasion, and a few walked out.

*First put forward by Jane Schaberg?

It's been floating around for at least 1,500 years if not longer, though I can't remember the reference. Poaaibly in Josephus or one of the earliest commentators.

JOhn

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Well, the question was if anyone remembers Christmas sermons. The answer, in that case, is certainly yes.

My father once visited a church that claimed to poses Jesus' used diaper,

Cloth or disposable?

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Well, the question was if anyone remembers Christmas sermons. The answer, in that case, is certainly yes.

My father once visited a church that claimed to poses Jesus' used diaper,
Cloth or disposable?

It miraculously cleansed, sterilised and dried itself.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

Nothing like stigmata then? No mystical shit miraculously appearing after the morning after epiphany?

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Oh, no, no, no, people. The little Lord Jesus shat a mystical substance that evaporated into a sweet incense smoke after ten minutes. His nappies wete left with a gilded emblem resembling the lion of Judah.

God, I love the Ship.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

As for this freak--

quote:
Originally posted by Cathscats:
You want to avoid one I heard about last year, where the preacher compared the incarnation (God showing us himself) to the preacher himself as a boy wondering what a naked woman looked like and peering through a crack in the bedroom door at his mother...

Holy shit. [Eek!]

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

My father once visited a church that claimed to poses Jesus' used diaper, which he thought was a spectacular commentary on the incarnation.

I'll just leave this here.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

I knew you'd be along, Pancho. [Big Grin]

One article in The Wittenburg Door announced that fossilized remains of Mary's morning sickness had been found on a road leading to Bethlehem, and that Vatican City was in an uproar with people arguing whether that was a first or second class relic.

Which brings us back to Jesus's diapies...

Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :

I have to hand it to people who must preach every year at Christmas. It can't be easy coming up with a new take on things.

That said, the bits about Jesus' diapers and the preacher peeking through the bathroom door at his mom make me glad I'm a Quaker. Not gloating here; we can have some off-the-wall "vocal ministry" (people speaking from the silence) but it's a little easier to let that go in one ear and out the other.

And my Mennonite Church will probably have its usual tie in with social justice.

sabine

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

My father once visited a church that claimed to poses Jesus' used diaper, which he thought was a spectacular commentary on the incarnation.
I'll just leave this here.

This is exactly why I went from being a 20 something Anglophile to 30 something Castillophile.

Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on :

Last year I read the passage about Arthur's carol service from "Skallagrig" by William Horwood in place of a sermon the Sunday before Christmas. Probably not suitable for Christmas Day itself but the congregation were spellbound. We had rather a long gap before the Creed because the vicar and servers were all crying and needed time to recover!

It's not well known. Arthur has severe cerebral palsy, is assumed to have profound learning disability as well (which he doesn't) and is in a grim institution. This service is a blaze of light and hope in the middle of it all and has a profound effect on his life.

Does anyone else know it? I can tell a bit more of the story but don't think I can post a link.

Posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis (# 3886) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
Last year I read the passage about Arthur's carol service from "Skallagrig" by William Horwood in place of a sermon the Sunday before Christmas.

Thanks for the heads up I love that book, but read it so long ago that I'd forgotten that passage.
I try to read a poem or short passage from a non-scripture source rather than preach at carol services. Malcolm Guite's Refugee (scroll down) has featured heavily in the last couple of years.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Oh, no, no, no, people. The little Lord Jesus shat a mystical substance that evaporated into a sweet incense smoke after ten minutes. His nappies wete left with a gilded emblem resembling the lion of Judah.

These kids seem to think differently (see around 2:48).

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

Our Christmas sermon this year was based around the genealogy of Jesus, focusing on the few women mentioned: Tamar, Ruth, Rahab, Uriah and Mary.

The possible choices for a woman were rape victim, cursed Moabite (barely above helpless and rescued by marriage), prostitute, sexual conquest for alpha males and virgin mother.

Then we segued to in Christ there is no male or female and how the world could be a better place without barriers of gender and ethnicity between us, and that Jesus came to break down barriers.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Oh, no, no, no, people. The little Lord Jesus shat a mystical substance that evaporated into a sweet incense smoke after ten minutes. His nappies wete left with a gilded emblem resembling the lion of Judah.
These kids seem to think differently (see around 2:48).

I like these kids. They made sure Baby Jesus got Jordans!

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

Thus subtly hinting at his coming baptism by John.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Our Christmas sermon this year was based around the genealogy of Jesus, focusing on the few women mentioned: Tamar, Ruth, Rahab, Uriah and Mary.

Uriah? That could lead itself to some interesting interpretation of 2 Kings 11. An Amazon in the army of David.

Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Nothing like stigmata then? No mystical shit miraculously appearing after the morning after epiphany?

I can just imagine the office hymn for the Feast of the True Shit, celebrated on 7 Jan:

Ave, verum stercore,
Brunneis, et foetida...

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Our Christmas sermon this year was based around the genealogy of Jesus, focusing on the few women mentioned: Tamar, Ruth, Rahab, Uriah and Mary.

The possible choices for a woman were rape victim, cursed Moabite (barely above helpless and rescued by marriage), prostitute, sexual conquest for alpha males and virgin mother.

Then we segued to in Christ there is no male or female and how the world could be a better place without barriers of gender and ethnicity between us, and that Jesus came to break down barriers.

I can't see whether, in context, this was a good or a bad sermon to have preached. But, at the very least, it sounds a bit more interesting than the somewhat bland fare one associates with Christmas and hopefully got people thinking - unless it was deliberately intended to shock and startle, which would have been going too far.

As I've said upthread, I do feel that Christmas tends to be the best attended but least theologically-explained festival of the Christian year - which isn't to say that I expect preachers to deliver a 45-minute mega-message on the meaning of kenosis on Christmas morning.

[ 26. December 2016, 08:55: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

PS That post was meant to begin "I can't say whether ...".

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Our Christmas sermon this year was based around the genealogy of Jesus, focusing on the few women mentioned: Tamar, Ruth, Rahab, Uriah and Mary.
Uriah? That could lead itself to some interesting interpretation of 2 Kings 11. An Amazon in the army of David.

That gets a [Overused]

.

More seriously, did the sermon point out that Bathsheba is not named in the genealogy? The others are, but she is just 'of Uriah', even though the readers knew perfectly well what her name was, i.e. 'that woman'.

Incidentally, I'm not so sure the conventional picture of Bathsheba as a poor exploited woman taken advantage of is the whole picture. Her intervention in 1 Kings 1 when David is dying, to make sure her her son bounces his older half-brothers in the succession do not give the impression of the actions of a cypher, one to whom things are done, rather than one who is herself an active agent.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

I think Bathsheba was clearly exploited in the bathing-on-the-roof part of the story -- passed from one man to the other like a bar of chocolate. However, by the time Solomon is on deck at least twenty years must have passed -- he is old enough to be king. She could not have made a convincing case for a kid, even a youth. So she had twenty years of harem politics and experience behind her. She wasn't 15-20 (no idea how old she was when she was Mrs. Uriah) but at least 35-40.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Incidentally, I'm not so sure the conventional picture of Bathsheba as a poor exploited woman taken advantage of is the whole picture. Her intervention in 1 Kings 1 when David is dying, to make sure her her son bounces his older half-brothers in the succession do not give the impression of the actions of a cypher, one to whom things are done, rather than one who is herself an active agent.

Well, a lot of years had passed. Perhaps she had learned from David and come into her own, as it were.

Our sermon focused on the first words the angel said to Joseph (and the shepherds and just about everyone else in scripture to whom an angel appears): "Do not be afraid." Coupled with the names of Jesus (you shall call his name Jesus/Emmanuel), the gist could be boiled down to "Do not be afraid. The God who saves/delivers is with us."

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I think Bathsheba was clearly exploited in the bathing-on-the-roof part of the story -- passed from one man to the other like a bar of chocolate. However, by the time Solomon is on deck at least twenty years must have passed -- he is old enough to be king. She could not have made a convincing case for a kid, even a youth. So she had twenty years of harem politics and experience behind her. She wasn't 15-20 (no idea how old she was when she was Mrs. Uriah) but at least 35-40.

She was almost certainly 15 to 20 when she was Mrs. Uriah, as the text makes it clear that they were married, but she was not pregnant (therefore the post menstrual bath) and most likely had no children yet (who would have muddied up the story in a pretty major way, being likely to want to avenge themselves on David at some point, and in the meantime being young and yowly and in need of a home).

The statistics people tell us that the average couple has an 85% chance of pregnancy within a year of unprotected sex. The fact that Uriah was gone with the army would impact that some, but probably not as much as you'd think, given that warfare then was seasonal.

So yeah, all in all, I'd say about 16 or so. Certainly not in a position to tell the king to piss off. (and probably not nearly as cynical and suspicious as she would have become later)

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I can't say whether, in context, this was a good or a bad sermon to have preached.

I took it as a good sermon. It was thought provoking and produced some discussion afterwards. I'm also all in favour of gender barriers being challenged.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Fair enough!

Posted by keibat (# 5287) on :

To bring the discussion back from the happy clappy nappy digressions...

The Adventual pre-Christmas and Christmas itself now being comfortably behind us, I note that at most of the services of the season that I was at, a clear majority of the congregation were folk I don't remember seeing in church before, tho' probably a fair proportion of them were there last year, when I evidently wasn't paying so much attention.

That shifts the context for Christmas sermons so very drastically. You can't take for granted even the shaky knowledge of Scripture, Christian theology, or liturgical practice that you can at least nod to with regular(ish) churchfolk. To my mind that rules out Archbishop Thomas' sermon from Murder in the Cathedral that Georgiaboy recalled just as much as my own suggestion of St John Chrysostom's golden oratory – tho' the latter didn't seem to be a total failure; however, that was with a relatively churched churchful, definitely more so than at our Midnight Mass or Christmas Day Eucharist.

The sermon I liked best this year was probably the five-minuter with the theme of 'Heaven touching earth' repeated like a refrain and finally morphing into 'Earth reaching up to heaven.'

Preaching to the unchurched is so much bigger a challenge than to the churched.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

On Christmas Day, I read the sermon from Murder in the Cathedral. People who like that sort of thing liked it and people who don't like that sort of thing did not. On Christmas Eve, I told a story about a priest in England who as a child wanted to see a naked woman... [Biased]

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

For what it's worth, my two Christmas (very short) sermons - one at the carol service and the other on Christmas Day - were about peace and the Incarnation.

The peace one reflected on there being no peace in the world, quoting Chesterton's reply to the Times' 'what's wrong with the world?' by letter: Dear Sir, I am, Yours GK Chesterton and saying that let there be peace in earth begins with us.

The CD one said that the Incarnation was good news not just because He is Immanuel: 'God with us' but because in him a Saviour has been born; and that's the good news - we can be forgiven.

[ 29. December 2016, 00:31: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

For the record, the short message I preached at our Carol Service was about the sheer "earthiness" and reality (as opposed to romanticised sentimentality) of the nativity scene. The slightly longer one I preached on Christmas Day was about the words and greetings we commonly use at Christmas, leading to thoughts about Jesus as God's perfect Word to humanity.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

At last year's Midnight Mass, Mother Vicar shared a few thoughts about the role in the story of the rather understated St. Joseph. This year, she focussed on the strength and toughness, despite her tender years, of Our Lady.

Both sermons were short and to the point - 5 minutes at the most - and look, I've remembered them!

IJ

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Kuruman (to whom I am married, to those who don't recall) went back to our old pad St Triangles' on the Sides of the North. (I have a policy of not going back until a decade has passed). The young Turks there are doing a great job under stringent circumstances. She reckons the one on deck on Christmas Eve preached a good sermon.

Then another.

Then another.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Ah - tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them, and then tell them what you've told them!

[Big Grin]

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

This year's Christmas sermon is memorable for me because my son was the preacher. He is a third-year seminarian completing his studies. He has preached before at other places. It is the first time he preached at our home congregation. His main point was that we should not celebrate something in the past but be Christ incarnate today.

The darn thing of it all was he refused to let me record it. He has a deal about taken sermons out of context of the liturgy.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

And was the prophet honored in his own country?

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