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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What time is it?
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
My local parish church and my local Cathedral are equidistant from me, 20-25 minute walk in different directions. I'd like to support the local shack (much to recommend it), but they start at 10:30, whereas the Cathedral starts at 11:00. Thirty extra minutes on a Sunday morning is much desired. Might someone explain to me why so many Anglican churches begin at 10:30? Is there some significance to the time? Or, is this another case of "Well, we've always done it this way?"
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
If they start thirty minutes before the Cathedral, their parishioners can go out to lunch (or Sunday dinner) and get to the restaurant or pub before the crowd from the Cathedral?
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
In Canada church was always at 11, because in rural areas (the vast majority 100 years ago) that gave farmers time to deal with their animals and harness up the buggy and get to church. And because church in England had "always" been at 11, as it still is in many places there.
Sometime in the 70s, congregation -- especially in cities, which now made up well over half the country -- began to notice that the number of buggies parked outside the churches had diminished. Parishes began to experience that many of their parishioners were willing to trade off a shorter lie-in on SUnday morning for a longer time to do other things.
It's most common in this city for main services to start at 10, allowing people time to get home for lunch and have a usable afternoon.
JOhn
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
The church my mother goes to starts at 9:30 am; I have no idea why. Perfectly nice people, those California central coast Presbyterians, but I really can't deal with their old-people choir and their hymns and prayers projected onto screens at that hour on a Sunday, and it's too early for lunch when the service gets out.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
How about 10:21 a.m.?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
The service I attend starts at 10.30, which is too late really - it means it chucks out shortly before noon, which makes it rather a rush to get home and get some lunch in the children. Half an hour earlier would make things much nicer for lunch purposes, but would come with its own catch: it would move the children's Sunday School half an hour earlier, and the earlier service half an hour earlier too. And maybe that's a bridge too far.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
You're never going to make everybody happy. Which might be why they settled on the 10:30 compromise.
I know that in the Lutheran churches of my acquaintance, a 10:30 service is almost always because there is an earlier Christian education hour with Sunday school and Bible study for all ages (usually at 9 or 9:30); and very likely an 8 a.m. worship service as well.
It seems to me the pattern usually goes like this:
If one service only, there will be Bible study etc. at 9 and worship starting at 10 or 10:30;
If two services, one will be at 8 or 8:30, one will be at 10:30 or 11, and the time in between will be filled by Bible study etc.;
If three services, one will be at 8, one at 9:30, and one at 11 a.m. Bible study will take place at the same time as the middle service.
We found that most of our people couldn't cope with a service time that got out later than 12--too hungry. And Lutheran services tend to run over an hour, especially if there's a baptism or other event on top of communion.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
The service here starts at 11:30, ostensibly so that crofters can see to their beasts in the morning even in midwinter (when it doesn't get light till nine). Seems far too late to me.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
Most of the Catholic parishes around here have a mass at 10:30 a.m. on Sundays. At the ones I'm familiar with the 10:30 mass is the principal mass and always have been as far as I can tell.
The time seems to suit most people. Late enough to sleep in a little, early enough to grab lunch and have the rest of the day free. All the parishes around here have at least 3 masses on Sunday so you can go earlier or later if you want.
We usually don't do Sunday School (with one exception). Catechism classes are usually on Saturdays plus other days if there are a lot of kids. The one parish I know that has classes on Sunday is unusual in doing so and one reason they bumped their 10:30 mass to 10 a.m. is so that those families could attend mass together.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
You're never going to make everybody happy. Which might be why they settled on the 10:30 compromise.
Which makes nobody really happy?
There is a church here which starts at the odd time of 10.40 am. It apparently reflects the timings of the local bus company, about 50 years ago.
Since then, not only have bus times changed, but bus services on Sunday in our town have diminished to a "skeleton service".
IMO at the earlier end of the scale you are "fighting" against working people who want a lie-in, teens who won't get up, folk who've had a late night on Saturday. Against the later end you've got families with young children who wake up at the crack of dawn, older folk who have to get back to their residential homes for a stupidly early lunch, and folk who want to get out for the day. You can't win.
Personally I'm not too bothered about the morning service. But I do get annoyed at having to conduct a 6.30 evening service and cut short an excursion on a long summer Sunday. (When I lived in Lisbon, evening services - full services, too, not just a short Compline - were at 9 pm. But, then, cinemas and other evening entertainments didn't start till then, or even later).
[ 10. January 2017, 07:14: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
How many other services would the priest/minister have conducted and at what times? Several suburban parishes around here have more than one church - apart from the time to travel there and back, the celebrant needs to have a chat with those at the other church as well and that takes some time. Then country parishes can be are spread over 100 km or more, plenty of time needed to allow safe driving (or flying in the case of 1 I know of). The same would apply in Canada as well.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Ours is at 1030am, which seems to suit most people, except for those who rush in during the first hymn (or even as late as the Gospel).
We're thinking of changing it to a 1045am start.
Without telling anyone.
The traditional English pattern, for urban churches at least, used to be 8am Communion, 11am Matins or Communion, and 630pm Evensong - sometimes with Evensong being the best-attended service of the day! The Parish Communion movement of the 1930s introduced a Eucharist, followed by breakfast (fasting before receiving the Sacrament was more common in those days, at least in 'higher' circles), at 9am or 930am, often with Matins or whatever at its old time of 11am.
Over the years, with falling attendances, parishes gave up with Matins, retaining the Parish/Family Eucharist as the principal act of worship, but timing it a bit later (hence 10am or 1030am), and giving up on 'fasting' Communion. The conservative-evangelical Church Of My Yoof never went down the Parish Communion road, but re-timed Morning Prayer/Family Service in the early 70s from 11am to 1030am in order to allow the introduction of the new-fangled 'coffee hour' afterwards.
Nowadays, of course, if clergy have to cover two churches (or more), times have to be arranged to accommodate this. One four-church parish in our Deanery times its main services at 930am in two, and 11am in the others.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Salicional
Shipmate
# 16461
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Posted
When I was serving an Anglican church, the main Sunday service began at 10:30 and normally wrapped up around 11:45 or 11:50. My hunch was that it had to do with noon being a kind of psychological barrier: go even a couple minutes past noon, and people start to feel they've been trapped for too long. So an 11:00 start would have been too late, in that sense.
Posts: 68 | From: near Lake Erie | Registered: Jun 2011
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
Ours officially starts at 10:45, on the understanding that most people will be there by 11.
I personally prefer an earlier service, as it frees up time later in the day. I'm not a big fan of sitting at home, twiddling my thumbs for a bit in the morning, waiting before I can head out, but with insufficient time to go anywhere or do anything meaningful.
The 8:30am service that one local churches has is the biggest temptation to convert to Anglicanism!
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
Ah. I' see a lot of logic here, more than I expected. Phronesis, even. For me, an 11am start allows me to listen to the first hour of a current affairs programme, have a tea, walk to the Cathedral, service, walk back to the neighbourhood pub for a pint and a chat, then home to begin the day, but by then it's 2-2:30pm. A late start, even with having to contend with partner, children, etc.
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
We have an 8.00 early communion service, with the main service at 10 - usually communion.This means that by the time people have had after-service refreshments they are going home from about 11.40 onwards with time to get lunch.
Some of our older folk find the 10.00 start too early, and families with children generally don't want it earlier than that because of the logistics of getting everyone there.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
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Posted
We have an 8:00 low mass, 9:00 sung mass, and an 11:15 high mass. An 11:15 principle service isn't unheard of to me, (another large church in the city has their principle service, morning prayer no less, at 11:15 as well) but I've never been able to work out exactly why they're at 11:15. My best guess is that the 9:00 services last a hard hour, that gives another hard hour for church school, with a quarter hour for fiddling around and getting everybody where he or she needs to be.
For comparison, our high mass usually lasts an hour and half to two hours.
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
11am or 1115am is rather late for Matins/Morning Prayer, given that one of the BCP Collects refers to God having 'safely brought us to the beginning of this day'!
I guess that, in the days when The Gentry attended Matins, it would indeed have been just after a leisurely breakfast (the servants went to Evensong)....
Cranmer, originally at any rate, intended Matins to be the 'early service', to be followed by the Litany, and then the 'Masse'.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
When Matins, Litany & Antecommunion was common in the CofE (C18?), when did that normally start, and how long did it last, and was it broken up into separate services?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
When Matins, Litany & Antecommunion was common in the CofE (C18?), when did that normally start, and how long did it last, and was it broken up into separate services?
I doubt it was ever common, though it was certainly known. Add in a sermon (40-50 minutes minimum before and outside the Oxford Movement, until around 1914) and you're looking at 2 hours minimum, at best.
That might be all right for those with servants at home to prepare for a 1:30 dinner, but not for others.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
My Mennonite Church starts at 9:30 because Sunday School comes after, followed sometimes by a congregational meeting or a potluck. 9:30 seems to be traditional for most of the Menno congregations I'm familiar with.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
When Matins, Litany & Antecommunion was common in the CofE (C18?), when did that normally start, and how long did it last, and was it broken up into separate services?
When I was a youngster (1950s), Matins, Litany & Ante-Communion, were only known to me on Good Friday, as a form of the three-hour Service, with Evensong added for the third hour. Ante-Communion could be used on Holy Saturday as well and on Good Friday, would only be used where the Liturgy of the Presanctified did not occur.
The rest of the year, Matins, Litany & Ante-Communion were unknown to me.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
When Matins, Litany & Antecommunion was common in the CofE (C18?), when did that normally start, and how long did it last, and was it broken up into separate services?
Not only was this structure common - it was the only legal form of morning worship in the C of E until the 1860s. The whole event would take at least 90 minutes (more if there was any singing), with a sermon in the place required by the BCP (after the Creed at Antecommunion). I guess the time of the service would vary depending on whether the majority of the congo had servants at home to prepare luncheon.
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
When Matins, Litany & Antecommunion was common in the CofE (C18?), when did that normally start, and how long did it last, and was it broken up into separate services?
The church in the next village has one service a month (it passed A,B and C purely to avoid becoming part of our benefice).
It does Matins, Litany and Antecommunion broadly as the same service, starting at 1045 and finishing around 1215. When it's feeling particularly daring it doesn't do the Litany, but it does at least a couple of times a year. Always at least Matins and Antecommunion. Half the congregation tend to clear out at the end of Matins.
My village is at 1100 every Sunday and scrolls through
1st 1662 HC
2nd Family Worship
3rd 1662 Morning Prayer
4th Family Communion
Communions are done by 1200, FW/MP by 1140. Sometimes quicker when we haven't got an organist and we just do it said. 2nd and 3rd are a lay reader, 1st and 4th the house for duty team vicar (or vanishingly rarely the rector, who I reckon I've seen 4/5 times in the past 15 months).
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
Clarification, sorry. My last post should have read "*without* having to contend with..."
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
Most I know of at 8 and 10. One is a single service at 11:30 because pastor serves two churches on Sunday. I think his first church holds a service at 9:15.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
At our place,
8 am BCP communion (the service I favour, partly because I like it and partly because it leaves me with a useful day afterwards)
10.30 Parish communion or whatever it's called, the main service - Common Worship
5.30 Evensong. Which I quite like but unless the full choir is there for choral evensong, I find 4 hymns with half a dozen people in a large church too much.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
Our only service is at 4.30 pm
We used to meet in a school hall and another group used it in the mornings. So we would get in at 2.30 pm and set up, and the service ran 4.30 - 6.00
We noticed we got lots of people in their 20s and 30s coming as a result. They lie in on a Sunday morning or play sport (or their kids do).
When we moved to our own building we kept the 4.30 slot and it works well.
We sit 'cafe style' round small tables, and those with small children bring food with them which the children eat at the tables after service - easier for the parents.
Once a month we all have a bring and share meal after the service which goes on till about 7.30 pm
[ 11. January 2017, 07:09: Message edited by: Gill H ]
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
It does Matins, Litany and Antecommunion broadly as the same service, starting at 1045 and finishing around 1215. When it's feeling particularly daring it doesn't do the Litany, but it does at least a couple of times a year. Always at least Matins and Antecommunion. Half the congregation tend to clear out at the end of Matins.
Hats off to enthusiasts for the BCP who actually do what it says. I take it the Sunday before an actual communion, the priest reads the long exhortation and the potential communicants all inform him of their intention in the following week, as required. (Before the Reformation, they would have done that in any case by going to confession.)
I wonder how the can find clergy among the crypto-papists of alternative episcopal oversight.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
If they only go as far as Antecommunion as a rule, then clearly no-one has signified his/her intention to communicate. The priest, therefore, needs to read the Exhortation provided 'in case he shall see the people negligent to come to the holy Communion'....
I wonder when that was last used at a BCP service?
Reverting to the subject of service times, Gill H's church makes a good point. Given the difficulty, in many places, of getting families to church on Sunday mornings, I wonder if there might be a case for a group of neighbouring churches (not necessarily all at the same level on the candle!) to join together for a Sunday afternoon tea-time Family Service at one or other of them?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
It does Matins, Litany and Antecommunion broadly as the same service, starting at 1045 and finishing around 1215. When it's feeling particularly daring it doesn't do the Litany, but it does at least a couple of times a year. Always at least Matins and Antecommunion. Half the congregation tend to clear out at the end of Matins.
Hats off to enthusiasts for the BCP who actually do what it says. I take it the Sunday before an actual communion, the priest reads the long exhortation and the potential communicants all inform him of their intention in the following week, as required. (Before the Reformation, they would have done that in any case by going to confession.)
I wonder how the can find clergy among the crypto-papists of alternative episcopal oversight.
Yes, I'm impressed by that. I'm also wondering whether they use Sternhold and Hopkins or Tate and Brady for their singing psalms.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
.....and have they a west gallery Quire, I wonder?
Actually, such a service (with the appropriate music) might be quite uplifting.
BTW, venbede, not all Resolution clergy are crypto-papists! The relevant Alternative Bishop may well be able to provide them with suitable chaps. Our own dear Father F***wit adores the BCP, and would be a suitable candidate.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
For all this gentle teasing, you have to remember that you are talking about betjemaniac's mates. They probably have and do exactly all these things. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
When we moved to our own building we kept the 4.30 slot and it works well.
We sit 'cafe style' round small tables, and those with small children bring food with them which the children eat at the tables after service - easier for the parents.
Once a month we all have a bring and share meal after the service which goes on till about 7.30 pm
I think this pattern is quite common for those places which do "Messy Church" - although usually they only do it monthly or bi-monthly, with an "ordinary" service in the morning.
There is really no "one size fits everyone" - although one does need to ask if Christians, to be mission-minded, need to be prepared to move to a time which may be less agreeable to them in order to suit "outsiders" whom they wish to invite.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
.....and have they a west gallery Quire, I wonder?
Actually, such a service (with the appropriate music) might be quite uplifting.
BTW, venbede, not all Resolution clergy are crypto-papists! The relevant Alternative Bishop may well be able to provide them with suitable chaps. Our own dear Father F***wit adores the BCP, and would be a suitable candidate.
IJ
With due thanks to Albertus for the reminder that these are real people.... Yes, the PEV whistled up a prayer book catholic happy to preach in Oxon MA hood and generally do things from the north end of the altar.
Can't remember what they do for psalms - I haven't been up there for a few years, although I can see the church from my back window (I can see my church from the front) and know many of the congregation. They do sing the Venite and Te Deum Laudamus though. Hymnal is clearly A&M. They do have an organ.
I'd tell the world where it was so they could go and see a real time capsule, frozen in about 1880 (and then only so as they could sing the later Victorian hymns) - but frankly it's probably better not to.
For all the gentle ribbing it's a working (and very successful - averages 70-90 for it's one service a month from a settlement of perhaps 120, and mostly local villagers aged 6-90 not BCP enthusiast tourists) church of genuine and sincere Christians.
It's not what you'd tend to get these days, it's definitely an anachronism, but it's demonstrably getting a lot right.
I'd go myself, but their service clashes with my own parish's 1662 HC.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
In all seriousness, it is indeed good to hear of a church which is doing what it does do well , and is flourishing therewith.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
It can well be the case that if a church shows enthusiasm and conviction it will rightly attract worshipers, however eccentric their ideas to others.
Good on them. And I do congratulate BCP lovers who actually do what it says. Percy Dearmer would have approved. It is loud praise of the BCP without following it that irritates me.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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BabyWombat
Shipmate
# 18552
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Posted
In this region of TEC 8 and 10 are the standard times. 8 is usually with no music and frequently Rite I (traditional language). 10 is with music and usually Rite II (contemporary language). Some call the 8 o’clock “the quiet service”, dropping a hint that children need not attend. If a parish has only one service it is usually at 10. Except…. My current shack has a long history of service times of 7:30 and 9:30. I am told it is a holdover from the WWII years when local factories were running ‘round the clock, and 7:30 service time allowed those coming off the night shift to attend Eucharist before going home to sleep. However, now it is highly favored by those wanting to get to the golf club while the morning is still cool!
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Let us, with a gladsome mind…..
Posts: 102 | From: US | Registered: Feb 2016
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Our service used to be at 11:00 because it had always been at 11:00. Then in the 1980s the great evil of Sunday Shopping was discovered in holy Presbyterian Ontario. Not only did people have to shop, a lot of people now had to work and get out of church in time for it, and so we discovered that it was OK with God if we started worshipping him at 10:30, which worked very well until certain persons decided that we needed two services, a noisy one at 9:15 when you can stroll in late with your coffee, and a sedate one at 11:00 all over again. It doesn't work very well, but that's for another thread.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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