Ship of Fools: Using formal prayers in private prayer

Thread: Using formal prayers in private prayer Board: Ecclesiantics / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=008490

Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on :

This question would have fit on the temporary "Kempistry" board, but I'm not sure whether it is best suited to Heaven, All Saints or Ecclesiantics.

What formal prayers and structures do you find useful in your private devotions? And how do you use them? When people talk about "reading through the Office", for example, does that involve reading through the service aloud, or internally, or what?

This is something I would like to start doing, practically, so practical suggestions are welcome.

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

Well, and this is going to be a surprise to virtually no one on here, I use the 1662 BCP and lectionary. It gets a bit repetitive in theory because there's only one set of readings for each of the Sundays/feast days but in practice I mainly do it when I've got through a Sunday without for whatever reason being able to get to church. In those circumstances I tend to say Evening Prayer.

The other one which I use a lot is the Common Worship Compline in traditional language, but that's because I fell in love with it during Wednesday night Compline and benediction/exposition at Pusey House - chanting alternate lines of the psalms at each other across the choir.

Given I'm by myself, and because they were written to be prayed aloud, that's what I do generally. I miss out the bits that only the priest can do, such as pronouncing the absolution, but I very much think it and pray for it when I get to it!

I find the BCP enormously helpful to give structure to my own thoughts. There's also a very good prayer card produced by my benefice which sets out forms for prayer in the morning, noon and evening which comes in useful from time to time too.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

I need time when I am not as tired to write well on this. There have been a couple of threads in Ecclesiantics on the daily offices: Daily Offices and Daily Offices Redux. They won't answer your question but will give a clue to the variety of daily offices that are used by shipmates.

Jengie

Posted by Banner Lady (# 10505) on :

Can thoroughly recommend meditative stretching...knowing how long a set prayer lasts is both helpful and centring...I think of it kind of like Christian Tai Chi. Of course it only works for those prayers or offices you have completely memorized.

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

Well, I think this a great thread that could fit in a few places but is probably best sited in Ecclesiantics and the Hosts there have offered to take it so off you go.

WW - AS Host.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

A big pity the Kempistry board was only temporary. There should be a permanent board on prayer and spirituality.

Unless I'm very tired or ill, I always enunciate the words of the office. I usually light a night light in front of the icons in the evening and I burn incense before the office on Saturdays and the eves of major feasts.

Before the final prayers, I pray intercessions - from the parish prayer list on the notices and my own list - just remembering the names and not telling God what to do with them.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

I use the daily office per the Presbyterian Book of Common Worship. (There's a great app for it.) And I tend to find wisdom in the Jewish practice that prayer must be spoken aloud, even if very quietly. It involves the breath and the voice as well as the mind, and it does help make sure I don't start speed-reading.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

A minor - but important point - from venbede's post above.

By all means, use your church's intercession list i.e. the names of those for whom prayer has been asked, but resist steadfastly the temptation to tell God what to do.....She knows already, and (to your credit) notes, and appreciates, the love and concern you are showing.

There is NO HARM AT ALL in using formal or written prayers - the church has been doing this ever since Our Lord gave us the 'Our Father'...

IJ

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Sorry to double-post, but Nick Tamen's remark about the wisdom of the Jewish practice of praying aloud, even if very quietly, is both sensible and practical.

Simply put, it WORKS..!

IJ

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

Yes, I learned about it when my daughter converted (to Judaism).
And for a very fast reader like myself, enunciating every word means I actually pray every word rather than gulping great chunks of text which I already know by heart

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
...resist steadfastly the temptation to tell God what to do.....She knows already, and (to your credit) notes, and appreciates, the love and concern you are showing.
IJ

I used to have a friend who would often ask me to pray for someone (usually her daughter, who had a variety of ills). I of course said that I would. The she'd give me instructions to pass on to God. I'd smile politely and think to myself 'hell no.'

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

I have used the BCP, 1662 (MP and EP) a lot.
Its "Forms of Prayer to be Used at Sea" have been most helpful too when I am truly in "dire straits"

I have also used A New Zealand Prayer Book's Night Prayer for a few periods when I am in BOTH dire straits AND in Aotearoa-New Zealand.

I find myself much more connected to other pray-ers (both living and throughout history) to use these mass-produced non-niche Prayerbooks

I also religiously listen to BBC Radio 3 Choral Evensong. (BCP or Bible in one hand, G&T in the other!)

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I used to have a friend who would often ask me to pray for someone (usually her daughter, who had a variety of ills). I of course said that I would. The she'd give me instructions to pass on to God. I'd smile politely and think to myself 'hell no.'

If that's what she wanted to say to God, why couldn't she speak to him herself, rather than expect you to pass it on for her.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I used to have a friend who would often ask me to pray for someone (usually her daughter, who had a variety of ills). I of course said that I would. The she'd give me instructions to pass on to God. I'd smile politely and think to myself 'hell no.'
If that's what she wanted to say to God, why couldn't she speak to him herself, rather than expect you to pass it on for her.

She did, and I know that she asked others. But the more people who gang up on God with specific instructions, the more apt He is to listen (and obey), I assume.

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

This is a bit of a tangent - but since I, too, often find my own words inadequate I often resort to set prayers and the listing of people/places I want to pray for, I often find it hard to determine who should be on my list, how long they should be on my list, when to take them off my list, and how long a list is too long. I often feel so guilty NOT including my distant cousins who are actually quite healthy, acquaintances who asked me to pray for them or their loved ones months ago, the people affected by the disaster in the news over a month ago, every single sick or recently deceased important figure, etc., that I find myself either avoiding prayer for fear of how long it will be, thinking of myself as a fool or worse for the OCD-like way I run through my endless lists, or cutting my prayers very short by saying "and for all that I have forgotten to or neglected to ask, please grant that too." Putting so much thought into what to have on my list to pray for at any given time and to the absurdity of an ever-lengthening list with some things being much more important, recent, or relevant than others often makes me wonder what the point is of prayer at all. I guess this maybe isn't the right thread for this post but are there any tried and true ways to decide what to include, keep, and discard on one's list of what to pray for? And how to balance praying for living people I know vs. praying for people I've been asked to pray for vs. praying for living people in the news vs. praying for disasters happening now vs. praying for ongoing crises vs. praying for countries where things always seem to be miserable vs. praying for dead family/friends/people I've been asked to pray for/people in the news? How do I (as someone who prays for the dead) decide when to stop praying for a deceased person who isn't such a close family member or friend that I will pray for them for the rest or my life? Sorry for the tangent.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

Read a piece a few years ago about an old nun who had died and they found a gazillion little notebooks with all the people she had prayed for; many after requests from people who knew she would actually do it and presumably a few who thought she had "channels" obviously.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
This is a bit of a tangent -... Sorry for the tangent.

I think there is occasionally something to be learned from the BCP. Its glorious

quote:
And we most humbly beseech thee of thy goodness, O Lord, to comfort and succour all them who in this transitory life are in trouble, sorrow, need, sickness, or any other adversity

reminds us that we probably don't have to give God the entire shopping list, certainly in public prayer and probably in private prayer.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I used to have a friend who would often ask me to pray for someone (usually her daughter, who had a variety of ills). I of course said that I would. The she'd give me instructions to pass on to God. I'd smile politely and think to myself 'hell no.'
If that's what she wanted to say to God, why couldn't she speak to him herself, rather than expect you to pass it on for her.
She did, and I know that she asked others. But the more people who gang up on God with specific instructions, the more apt He is to listen (and obey), I assume.

Even God prefers popular people with lots of friends?

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
A minor - but important point - from venbede's post above.

By all means, use your church's intercession list i.e. the names of those for whom prayer has been asked, but resist steadfastly the temptation to tell God what to do.....She knows already, and (to your credit) notes, and appreciates, the love and concern you are showing.

IJ

This is central to my prayers and not something I have heard discussed.
Certainly my concept of God is somewhat unconventional and similar to the belief of the 'something other' that is everywhere present.
So my petitions for others are based on the wish that whatever they are experiencing they may be aware of the upholding presence of that abiding love.

GG

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

I too use the 1662 BCP, usually in an abbreviated form of MP cut down to fit a few minutes before going to work (with one psalm and the Gospel reading; canticle & opening psalm depending on time). I find the structure and rhythms very helpful. Sometimes other bits and pieces e.g. from Harry Ogden's Some Daily Prayers for Church of England People or Lancelot Andrewes's Preces Privatae. Used to use Celebrating Common Prayer a bit but found all the options and seasonal chopping and changing too fiddly and distracting.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

Living where I do, long rural bus journeys are a great time to use the Daily Prayer app and do the office on the bus. I am silent for this, for obvious reasons.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Our Place's sacristan - a Third Order Franciscan - works in London, and reads her Offices (morning and evening) silently on the train. I think she uses the actual book, rather than a phone app.

IJ

Posted by Banner Lady (# 10505) on :

When praying either set or extemporary prayers, I rather like the prayer attitude of "just handing it over" to God. Someone once told me "just picture it well taken care of..."

I am not a fussy or anxious person by nature, but sometimes news or circumstances encountered are so grim I am extremely grateful to be able to hand unsettling things over to the only One who can really make a difference.

And when there are no words of my own that seem remotely adequate, it is wonderful to have the daily offices. I don't think it matters how many set prayers are recited in a row - I have never thought it was about some magic number of prayers or minutes counted in prayer that would melt the problem away. I simply commit whatever/whoever it is to God and then look forward to seeing how the prayer is answered.

I find assurance this way, and have never struggled with "how to pray" or "whether my prayers matter". I wonder if this is how others who pray set prayers find assurance?

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

One thing I find valuable about using 'set' prayers for my personal devotions is that sometimes I 'carry' the prayers, but when I am in the wrong place to carry them, then they carry me. So even when I am emptied out, they are there, and the Spirit uses them to lift me.

Another thing I find valuable is that they commit me to a breadth of prayer which I might easily avoid if left to my own devices. And, there is always space in any of the forms for the prayers of my heart - spoken or unspoken.

(BTW, I agree with others who have commented on the helpfulness of actually 'saying' the prayers. Otherwise for me, because of the kind of reader I am, there would be a tendency to pass over them too quickly)

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I too use the 1662 BCP

Me too - as I know it off by heart so don't have to keep stopping to look things up.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Yes. And you can do that with the BCP, can't you, in a way that's much more difficult to do with more varied and flexible liturgies. I think it's a combination of very little variation and a lot of rhythms. And I suppose that in a much less literate age than our own, a lot of the laity who heard it week in, week out, would have got it like that. The more modern liturgies, with their variations and options, seem to me to be rather clericalised: they assume a fairly high level of comfort with the written word and of ability to navigate liturgical structures. The result is that you get a 'liturgy of the head'- something which may in some ways be more 'correct' but which may never quite become a liturgy of the heart in the way that the BCP can.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

That is true. I was 'brought up' on BCP Evensong, and can still pretty well say it off by heart (apart from the Psalms, of course.... [Ultra confused]

).

IJ

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Traditional Compline last thing at night.

We used to say this as a family when I was growing up, especially when we were away on holiday.

Once my own children grew beyond the God bless my friends and the cat type of night prayer we moved onto an abbreviated form of Compline which continued until they left home for university.

A couple of times recently they have asked if I still say night prayers and have offered to join me so Compline is back on the menu.

Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on :

Thank you very much for all the replies so far.

A lot of people seem to use BCP - either Morning Prayer or Evensong, and I appreciate the idea of reading aloud so as not to skim along at too high a pace.

When you started doing this, did it feel weird to read out the parts (such as the "Dearly beloved brethren" at the beginning) which seem to assume a congregational setting? Do you leave those out or do you just get used to them?

How long do you find it takes and do you find it difficult to set aside time for it?

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

Even with other versions of daily prayer it still (after nearly three decades) seem odd when I'm on my own to read parts which are directed towards a gathering. So with the BCP, if were going to use the opening confession (and many Anglicans would begin at "O Lord, open thou our lips" - after the first occurrence of the Lord's Prayer) then I would probably simply omit "Dearly beloved brethren" and having begun with one or more of the suggested Sentences from scripture continue with "The scripture moveth us in sundry places…"

I find I am not troubled by the use of the third person plural, because in praying with one of these set forms, I am mindful of the fact that at slightly different hours and in different places others are praying the same prayers - so there is an element of the corporate to them.

I have a routine for Morning Prayer which is built into my working life (I am an incumbent in a C of E parish) so that makes it easy for me to do. I am less good with Evening Prayer and do struggle with that. I reckon that it takes an unhurried 20 minutes approximately for a full office and some additional prayer. There are some trims that I will do if pressed for time that bring it down to about 10 minutes, but I've not tried that with the BCP. If you are just trying it out, you might find the Daily Prayer app helpful. (Even if you prefer a real book, this can come in useful in situations where the book is not practical. It offers both the contemporary Common Worship and traditional BCP options)

[ 21. June 2017, 16:18: Message edited by: BroJames ]

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

Being a feminist from the olden days for me it's perfectly natural to adjust grammar on-the-spot without affecting my fluency.
Though some days if I am feeling particularly lonely (or particualrly connected) I will use plural forms. I am very aware of a feeling of "praying by ourselves together" and added to that the feeling of being part of a historical stream of worship

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:

I have a routine for Morning Prayer which is built into my working life (I am an incumbent in a C of E parish) so that makes it easy for me to do. I am less good with Evening Prayer and do struggle with that. I reckon that it takes an unhurried 20 minutes approximately for a full office and some additional prayer. There are some trims that I will do if pressed for time that bring it down to about 10 minutes, but I've not tried that with the BCP. If you are just trying it out, you might find the Daily Prayer app helpful. (Even if you prefer a real book, this can come in useful in situations where the book is not practical. It offers both the contemporary Common Worship and traditional BCP options)

I too have found it difficult to be consistent about saying Evening Prayer. But it's usually easier to find the time to pray the morning office reflectively plus an extended time of silent prayer. I now (in retirement) find I can snatch 5 minutes - which is enough - for Common Worship EP or vespers: which only need consist of psalm + canticle, short bible reading (I usually use those provided for Midday prayer), Magnificat. Very brief if any intercessions concluded by Kyrie, Collect and Lord's Prayer.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:

When you started doing this, did it feel weird to read out the parts (such as the "Dearly beloved brethren" at the beginning) which seem to assume a congregational setting?

We only ever used the Dearly Beloved on Sundays - and they are a 1662 addition to Cranmer's 1549 Office

[ 22. June 2017, 18:02: Message edited by: leo ]

Posted by BabyWombat (# 18552) on :

Building on Galilit’s note above about adjusting grammar on-the-spot, I have found it very helpful to substitute the second person form of the pronoun in place of the third person form used for God when praying privately. For example “The sea is yours for you made it” instead of “The sea is his for he made it”. It has become very reflexive for me, and I make the change throughout any of the psalms. Just a small personal variation, but it reminds me that the relationship is indeed personal -- I am speaking to God, not talking about God.

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:

When you started doing this, did it feel weird to read out the parts (such as the "Dearly beloved brethren" at the beginning) which seem to assume a congregational setting?
We only ever used the Dearly Beloved on Sundays - and they are a 1662 addition to Cranmer's 1549 Office

1552, I think, according to this PDF, so Cranmer's own addition to his 1549 text.

[ 22. June 2017, 18:40: Message edited by: BroJames ]

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

Ok I am a formal prayer person and have been for about forty years now. I started with a version of John Baillie "A Diary of Private Prayer". My father made it suitable for my use when I was a teenager. I have moved through a variety of set prayers since then, A Private Diary, Susan Sayer, Iona Abbey, "Each Day, Each Night", personal (version 1)*, Celebrating Common Worship, Common Worship, "Book of Common Worship: Daily Prayer" "Seeking God's Face" and personal (version 2)*.

At present, I largely use Morning Prayer from Common Worship in the morning and the personal form of daily prayer from the Iona Community with "Seeking God's Face" in the evening. That is under review.

In other words using set prayers does not mean that you need to stick to the same set prayer forever and ever amen. There rather are seasons of prayer and you need to be sensitive to them. When I am in a place where I need short simple prayer then I do not feel bad if I simplify (down to a noted absence if that is all I can manage). If I am in a place where I feel the need for silence I use forms that easily adapt to longer spells of that. If it is more Bible then I find forms where I have more Bible readings. If I feel the need for the psalms I will change to a heavily psalm-based form. I do not choose every day but stick for months, years with a single form but am prepared to change it as need arise.

Jengie

Posted by Planeta Plicata (# 17543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
When people talk about "reading through the Office", for example, does that involve reading through the service aloud, or internally, or what?

For what it's worth, St Alphonsus Liguori (as well as the general pre-Conciliar practice, apart from the Franciscans and some others who were given special dispensation) suggests that the Office must be vocalized, but only to the degree that some sort of sound is produced—the words don't actually have to be audible: "[A]d satisfaciendum Horis non praecipitur auditio, sed tantum recitatio, sive pronuntiatio verborum, quae dicitur vocalis; ut autem pronuntiatio haec vocalis dicatur, sufficit quod formetur aliquis sonitus verborum, licet modicus et vix sensibilis sit."

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

I get the drift, but please could you provide an accurate translation of that chunk of Latin?

IJ

Posted by Planeta Plicata (# 17543) on :

Sorry, of course: "In order to satisfy [the obligation of saying] the Hours, hearing it is not required, but only a recitation or pronunciation of the words that may be termed vocal. In order, moreover, for this pronunciation to be called vocal, it is enough that some form of noise be produced, soft and barely perceptible though it may be."

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Thank you. Sensible advice, indeed.

IJ

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

What about the rosary? A formal although not liturgical prayer used by millions who neither feel literate enough to use the office or articulate enough for extempore prayer, and in many cases are technically illiterate.

It can be used as either

Biblical mediation

An entry into contemplative prayer

Or as part of intercessions.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0