Thread: Ashes to Ashes.... Board: Ecclesiantics / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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....have any Shipmates (C of E or otherwise) had to conduct a service for the scattering of cremated remains, as opposed to the interment thereof?
Our Place has been asked to do this with the ashes of our late Churchwarden, scattering them in and around the church grounds, so I have, of course, advised that we approach the Archdeacon for guidance. The C of E doesn't appear to have a specific liturgy, though the form provided for the burial of ashes seems to fit the bill with virtually no alteration.
We're in interregnum, but I, as a Lay Reader, have permission to officiate at funerals, so the job may well come my way.
IJ
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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I have done this, although (to be honest) I adapt what I do according to circumstances. I'll PM you.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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You might look into whether local ordinances control where ashes can be scattered -- it varies widely. There is a lot of creativity on this subject, and sometimes people object. (I am tell there is a sign in the garden at Haworth, in Yorkshire, famously the home of Charlotte Bronte. So many Jane Eyre fans were sneaking in and scattering ashes that the gardeners put up a sign begging people to not do it, because the roses were suffering.)
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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Thanks, BT.
Brenda, you're quite right re local laws etc., which is why I advised fleeing to the Archdeacon for guidance/instructions! Our grounds are not extensive, but there are two or three 'suitable places...
IJ
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
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A few times and as you suggest I simply use the rite for interment but with a slightly more vigorous arm movement ...
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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Have done it, well, helped with it, at sea, but can't remember what the form of it was. I imagine it'd be much the same on land.
Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on
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What are denominational stances, if any, as to whether it is appropriate for a Christian to have his/her ashes scattered, rather than buried, and whether clergy are allowed to participate in a service for the scattering of ashes. Is the RCC the only denomination that has come out against scattering of ashes? (see below)
http://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2016/10/25/161025c.html
I have no strong opinion on the matter - just curious about other denominations' views.
Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
....have any Shipmates (C of E or otherwise) had to conduct a service for the scattering of cremated remains, as opposed to the interment thereof?
Our Place has been asked to do this with the ashes of our late Churchwarden, scattering them in and around the church grounds, so I have, of course, advised that we approach the Archdeacon for guidance. The C of E doesn't appear to have a specific liturgy, though the form provided for the burial of ashes seems to fit the bill with virtually no alteration.
We're in interregnum, but I, as a Lay Reader, have permission to officiate at funerals, so the job may well come my way.
IJ
As I understand it, the C of E officially frowns upon the scattering of ashes. So if you ask the archdeacon, you may well be told not to do it. Certainly, in the "Companion to Common Worship", Gordon Giles makes it clear that the burial of ashes is to be preferred -which is why there is no liturgy for scattering ashes.
Having said that, I used to do it quite often. I simply took the service for the burial of ashes and made a few minor adjustments.
(interestingly, I have found here in Canada that the opposite is true. I have been "strongly advised" by diocesan staff that I should NEVER bury ashes in the church grounds, but should ALWAYS scatter them. This is because the moment you bury ashes, you turn the church grounds into a cemetery and a whole new set of rules and regulations need to be applied. Most people around here, though, prefer to have their ashes scattered at sea or in the local hills.)
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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Various views, as I expected, of course!
I'll await instructions from the Archdeacon, but I wasn't aware that officially the C of E doesn't like the scattering of ashes...though I might have guessed it from the lack of a specific service.
AFAIK, Our Place doesn't have a faculty (or whatever) for the interment of ashes.
IJ
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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A clergyman told me a few years ago that ashes must be buried in the ground and not scattered, but I don't know whether that was official or not, and he has since died.
Somebody else told me that they had run into problems trying to get permission to bury some ashes in a churchyard that already had relatives in it but was closed. Eventually the family had sneaked in by night, dug a little hole, poured them in and covered it in again. To some people that may sound very wicked, but it strikes me as a very sensible solution.
If you're a Reader in a vacancy, I'd have thought it would be best not to take any risks, to expect the family to carry any risks, not you.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
What are denominational stances, if any, as to whether it is appropriate for a Christian to have his/her ashes scattered, rather than buried, and whether clergy are allowed to participate in a service for the scattering of ashes.
There are no rules or restrictions for UK Baptists (or URC) - at least, I've never come across them in 30 years of ministry, and the Baptist "prayer books" certainly allow for both scattering and interment.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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Why would a family need a member of the clergy to lead a service for the scattering of ashes if the deceased has already been cremated in a religious service?
Is it just that they want the scattering to be done in a dignified, sombre way, and a church minister is the most convenient choice for that?
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
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Nothing to do with convenience. Everything to do with dignity, feelings of doing things right, and definitely
comfort.
Forgive me for the bluntness and indignity of the follwing.
Re the ashes themselves. They are quite heavy, not light, and thus scatter not well, if your idea of scatter is like mine. Like sand and small gravel. More drop than scatter. A little pile on the ground isn't very dignified. Into water is better, if burial isn't possible.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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Noted re the weight of human ashes (and also the need to be aware of wind direction....). I rather envisage sowing them, as in sowing seed.....which somehow seems quite Biblical.
The deceased's parents are not now regular churchgoers, though they have been in the past, and very occasionally attend at Our Place. Dignity, doing things right, and comfort - not to mention closure - are all important to them, I'm sure, and the deceased himself would have wanted that (he'd have wanted a BCP service for Ye Scattering Of Ye Ashes, were there to be such a thing!).
As a Reader in a vacancy, I will, of course, abide by instructions/guidance from my always supportive Archdeacon, and Area Dean.
IJ
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Why would a family need a member of the clergy to lead a service for the scattering of ashes if the deceased has already been cremated in a religious service?
In my experience (in the U.S.) there is no religious service involved with the cremation. I had never heard of friends and families gathering at the "crem" until I read about it on the Ship.
Our standard procedure is to have a Memorial Service (rather than a funeral) at the church. Occasionally the body is present (in a coffin, under a pall), and the cremation is held afterwards. More often the cremation is done very soon after death, and the Memorial Service at the church follows days or even weeks later. If the deceased's ashes are being put into the Columbarium in our church's Memorial Garden (I've already bought my niche), the whole congregation, or sometimes just the family, walk down to the Garden for the ashes to be placed in a niche in the wall. If the ashes are being taken elsewhere, the family takes care of that after the service. One corner of the Memorial Garden is reserved for "scattering," but it's actually a very shallow burial.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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It's certainly not unknown for families to informally scatter ashes, without benefit of clergy, subsequent to (and not necessarily immediately after) the customary funeral service (which may, or may not, be 'religious') at the crematorium.
It's interesting to note how customs differ across the pond.
IJ
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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Yes, the actual cremation is something of a technical process, and mostly they don't want the family there. (It's a big oven, essentially -- there's no seating or viewing area.) To save on expense it is common in the US (unless it was a crime, or there is an autopsy, or disagreements among the survivors) to cremate the body quite soon after the death. This saves on the costs of refrigeration/storage, and the cost of a separate coffin.
The service is held afterwards (this also allows time for the family to travel in) and the urn containing the ashes is at the memorial service, usually on a credence table and covered by a veil.
The scattering/putting the urn into the columbariam/interring the ashes/whatever can take place quite later, years later if necessary.
Again this delay is sometimes very handy. My parents passed away this year, and had expressed the wish for their cremated ashes to be mixed together and scattered under the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco. (This is actually quite popular and there is an entire boating industry there to meet this need.) But since they didn't pass away on the same day or week, it was necessary to keep my father's ashes for a while. Now that they are both gone, we plan to scatter the ashes next August, when I have to be in California anyway. Summertime means that many of the grandchildren will be available (not yet in school) and the long lead time means that people can plan to travel in and be there.
Posted by BabyWombat (# 18552) on
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I’ve never done the scattering myself, and usually suggest to families they do the shallow hole burial vs actual scattering, to avoid ashes (well, grit) on their clothes and shoes, in nostrils, etc. if the day is breezy. That experience of carrying the loved one home on your shoes is quite upsetting.
I usually do the standard committal service, then let them have a go…… in most cases they are then wandering off into the woods or field or garden or something personal to them, then come back for a final collect and blessing. When we do this in our memorial garden it is a shallow hole, we cover them over and finish the service. If they want scattering on the parish grounds other than a dedicated memorial garden area, are they comfortable with the reality that someone will be mowing on that area, dogs possibly relieving themselves, and the possibility that there may be digging about for future plumbing or other reasons?
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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That's a good point, and applies to the area at the east end of the church where, so I understand, the deceased's parents want his ashes scattered.
On a purely practical note, I shall ensure that the grass is cut shortly before the service, but how long does it take, I wonder, for the ashes (grit) to be absorbed into the ground? Maybe I should pray earnestly for Heavy Rain to fall, about an hour or so after the service proper.....
IJ
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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No - I refuse, following C of E advice about the integrity of the human remains.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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The industry argument against scattering:
1) There is no place for the family to return, to remember the dead. (My siblings and I are not going to sail out to the Golden Gate Bridge.)
2) You have no control over the future of the site. Church property can be sold or redeveloped. The ashes are scattered on the grass today; in fifteen years what if they erect a playground on the spot? Of course ground burial isn't proof against the outrages of time. Even King Richard's burial site became a parking lot.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Why would a family need a member of the clergy to lead a service for the scattering of ashes if the deceased has already been cremated in a religious service?
In my experience (in the U.S.) there is no religious service involved with the cremation. I had never heard of friends and families gathering at the "crem" until I read about it on the Ship.
That's interesting.
In fact, British funerals today are said be less and less 'religious', even if led by a Christian minister. Only a third of funerals, including cremations, are conducted by a CofE minister.
We may find ourselves in a situation where families who identify as Christian will want two religious services for a deceased member, one at the crematorium or church and one at the scattering of ashes (or at a memorial service) whereas other families won't want a religious service at all.
Or perhaps Christian families might want one fairly secular service for friends and family who aren't religious, and another for those who are? I don't know.
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on
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My experience of Christian funerals in the UK has been that a service is held in the church, with the coffin present and family, friends, acquaintances etc all there and then only the close family travel to the crematorium with the coffin where there is a short committal service in the crem chapel and then the cremation takes place. Or it is done the other way around, the close family attend the crematorium for a service there and then a later memorial / thanksgiving for the life of the person service takes place in the church with everyone present. This may or may not be done on the same day as the cremation when it is done this way round.
I must confess I didn't know that some Christians had an objection to ashes being scattered! It's not something I had ever heard in church, only read here on the Ship. Various family members of mine who were lifelong Church of England members had their ashes scattered. I was not aware that there was any controversy about this!
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
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The cremated remains are a mix of fragments. Including black, grey and whitish. The white is likely bone.
I have, and my family has, a different take on a location. Because all, save one other, of my father's family were war killed and consumed by fire bombing in WW2, not having a location and cremation is apparently required. I learned more when we dropped my mother's ashes into a lake. I read from the Book of Alernative Services and BCP (Canadian), because I hadn't the faintest clue what else to do. My father talked of ashes needing to be "lost" in the world, and somehow, geology and stardust at once. Which makes me say again, dignity and comfort.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Why would a family need a member of the clergy to lead a service for the scattering of ashes if the deceased has already been cremated in a religious service?
Is it just that they want the scattering to be done in a dignified, sombre way, and a church minister is the most convenient choice for that?
Do you not offer a service for the interment of ashes before burial under the traditional rosebush? The same principle of ongoing commitment of the deceased to God's care and seeking the same ongoing support for the family and mourners.
If doing a scattering, choose a sheltered place. Friends wanted their daughter's ashes scattered from Middle Head, as she had been a keen sailor. As you might expect, the ashes went everywhere, including onto the clothes of of those attending. Many tears about brushing them off. If it is a breezy day, half-kneel so that you scatter close to the ground and sprinkle rather than scatter.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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If you put yourselves into the hands of experienced persons (these folks who sail out to the Golden Gate Bridge for instance) they will advise you. I am told that the captain of the vessel will advise you where and when, and also which side of the vessel to scatter from. This is the kind of knowledge gained only by experience.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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Yes, scatter from the lee side of a boat or bridge. Not as much choice about a building though.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
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I've been told that doing it from an airplane can be tricky too.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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Even burying ashes in a wind is difficult. There's a lot of light stuff that blows everywhere. A few years ago I used to cover for the physical stuff interring ashes when the church warden who usually did it was not available.
The first one was *interesting*, but it was only me who got the light coating of ash. Not helped by having to dive in and out the back door to collect the ashes from the funeral directors across the street, who fortunately knew me and allowed me to collect them, even though I wasn't a family member.
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on
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It's illegal in Ireland. Ashes must be buried in a container. That's not to say that people don't go ahead and scatter ashes anyway. I've a vague memory that ashes at sea must also be in a container, but I could be wrong on that front.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Yes, scatter from the lee side of a boat ...
...and in my case, hope that the Isle of Wight hydrofoil doesn't go past at high speed just as you've found a nice calm spot ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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I am beginning to hope that the Archdeacon says No...
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
IJ
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
...and in my case, hope that the Isle of Wight hydrofoil doesn't go past at high speed just as you've found a nice calm spot
Well, at least that's one thing we'll never have to worry about in Arizona.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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The other thing about ashes is that they are divisible. You could split them into separate lots and do different things with them. This can become very complex. There was a guy here in the US whose friend, a noted plumber and a baseball fan, had passed away. The guy was make a trip to every major baseball park in the nation, and quietly flushing some of his friend's ashes into a commode there.
And we all remember Keith Richards, right? Huffing his father's ashes? This cannot be good for you, but Keith Richards is not famous for healthy behavior.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
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How does concern about the "integrity of human remains" square with the practice of venerating the relics of saints? If it's OK for a saint's finger to be taken to one place, and a skull or a leg to another, why is it important not to divide someone's ashes?
And how it venerating the relics of a saint different from keeping Grandma on the mantelpiece?
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Even burying ashes in a wind is difficult.
Whenever I've done that the ashes have been contained in a casket.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
How does concern about the "integrity of human remains" square with the practice of venerating the relics of saints? If it's OK for a saint's finger to be taken to one place, and a skull or a leg to another, why is it important not to divide someone's ashes?
And how it venerating the relics of a saint different from keeping Grandma on the mantelpiece?
Very good quesrion that I need to think about - of course, the C of E tends to frown upon relics though I venerate them.
Posted by Cathscats (# 17827) on
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In these parts, I have to advise those who ask that the one place the scattering of ashes is forbidden is the cemetery! I think that is the local council looking for their pound of flesh (and yes, not a drop of blood!). So, officially you can't be scattered on Granny's grave. Officially. Which means not with me present. But what no one knows can't hurt....
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
No - I refuse, following C of E advice about the integrity of the human remains.
Bugger their advice, Mum wanted to be scattered into the River Wharfe so she was. It was even written into the Will. No way was I going back on that. She'd probably have haunted me.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
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I should note that I'm not really sold on the "burial in the churchyard gives the family a focus and reminds them to pray for the dead" thing - people are more mobile now than they used to be, and as far as I can see likely to become even more so.
So whilst you certainly do find people living next to the graves of their family going back to the 16th century, you also find a large number of people with no particular family connection to the place that they end their days, and all the children have long since moved away from wherever Grandma is buried, so there's nobody to keep up the grave.
Traditions are wonderful, but they need to bow to the necessities of a changing way of life.
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on
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My wife, sister and I, in accordance with my aunt's wishes, mingled her ashes with those of her husband who had predeceased her, and poured them into the sea from some rocks on a Queensland beach.
The only other person in the party was a friend of hers, the bus driver from her retirement village.
He was a no-longer-young Roman Catholic, and recited the De Profundis in Latin from memory as we committed the couple's remains to the waves.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
No - I refuse, following C of E advice about the integrity of the human remains.
Bugger their advice, as. It was even written into the Will. No way was I going back on that. She'd probably have haunted me.
But I am a man under authority.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
mingled her ashes with those of her husband
Without wishing to comment on personal wishes, that shows a faulty thology of marriage - they may be one flesh but they remain two souls
[ 02. July 2017, 17:01: Message edited by: leo ]
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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I'm afraid leo is right. Those of us who are Blue-Scarfed-Menaces (aka Church of England licensed Lay Readers) are indeed under authority, and have sworn solemn oaths to our Bishop(s) to obey them in all things lawful.
Hence my (repeated) emphasis on waiting for instructions/guidance from the Archdeacon (aka Bishop's Rottweiler....).
I agree that there may sometimes be urgent pastoral reasons for not so waiting, but that is not the case here.
IJ
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
mingled her ashes with those of her husband
Without wishing to comment on personal wishes, that shows a faulty thology of marriage - they may be one flesh but they remain two souls
You assume that her motive for wanting her ashes to be mingled with those of her husband was based on a theological understanding of marriage and "one flesh." That may or may not be the case. My guess would be the her motives were no different than the motives of married couples who want to be buried next to each other. She just wanted to be with her husband.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
No - I refuse, following C of E advice about the integrity of the human remains.
Bugger their advice, as. It was even written into the Will. No way was I going back on that. She'd probably have haunted me.
But I am a man under authority.
And I fancy myself a man of compassion, so I pray you never find yourself upon the horns of this dillema.
[ 02. July 2017, 20:26: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
You assume that her motive for wanting her ashes to be mingled with those of her husband was based on a theological understanding of marriage and "one flesh."
She was an atheist and her husband was a lapsed Roman Catholic
Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on
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New Zealand custom is to have the funeral in the church, with the coffin present. I remember one funeral where the eulogist addressed the deceased, which I think is a Maori custom. Then the close family go to the crematorium or burial; the committal may take place at the crematorium or grave side, or at the church before they leave (I remember the clergywoman planning the service gave me the option). For a non-church family the service often takes place at the crematorium.
My Dad's ashes sat in a cupboard for 16 years until I had an inspiration; I took them to the hills in Central Otago where he had spent his youthful holidays shooting bunnies.I scattered them above the lake where the ground in covered with wild thyme.
My mother-in-law brought her husband's ashes from Australia but wanted a grave site so that her ashes could be interred with his and have room for any other family ashes. My son is going to clean up the grave before his father's ashes can be interred – but I got the funeral director to keep a handful separate which we have scattered under his beloved olive tree.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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Our practice is to have the committal at the church. Very rarely does the family go to the crematorium - even with reasonable traffic it's a half hour each way and by not going they can go straight to the reception to meet people. I can't remember the last committal for a burial, indeed the last burial would have been over 20 years ago for a Greek Orthodox man. Any interment of ashes is a quiet and small ceremony for the family only and conducted after the main Sunday service. A deep and wide hole is ready dug, the ashes poured in from ground level, and a rose bush or other shrub is planted as the hole is refilled.
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on
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Cremation is very unusual here, with it being many hours' journey to the nearest crem. It is standard here for the minister to lead the coffining, funeral and burial usually within a few days of death as we don't have suitable facilities to store bodies safely.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
You assume that her motive for wanting her ashes to be mingled with those of her husband was based on a theological understanding of marriage and "one flesh."
She was an atheist and her husband was a lapsed Roman Catholic
At least she hadn't had his ashes put into an egg-timer or, worse, mingled with snuff...
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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Thank you all for your comments. Our Archdeacon says, firmly, No. Ashes may not be scattered in the church grounds (it's not a graveyard as such, for there are no graves).
I'll suggest to our PCC that we apply forthwith for a faculty for the burial of ashes - AFAIK, we don't already have one - but that's not much comfort to the deceased's parents.
IJ
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
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With respect to the CofE order to not scatter*, I suspect many clergy unofficially do this using whatever parts of the funeral liturgy seem to suit.
* As I understood it, the reason was supposed to be pastoral, in that the mourners had no definite location or place to return to, knowing that there were no remains remaining, so to speak. And this could be A Bad Thing.
In a couple of council cemeteries of my acquaintance there used to be a special tree or area, where the celebrant could use a special scattering device to disperse the loved one.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
With respect to the CofE order to not scatter*, I suspect many clergy unofficially do this using whatever parts of the funeral liturgy seem to suit.
* As I understood it, the reason was supposed to be pastoral, in that the mourners had no definite location or place to return to, knowing that there were no remains remaining, so to speak. And this could be A Bad Thing.
In a couple of council cemeteries of my acquaintance there used to be a special tree or area, where the celebrant could use a special scattering device to disperse the loved one.
But how does the 'no definite place' thing square with allowing the scattering of ashes at sea, then- because even if anyone kids themselves that it's the burial of ashes at sea, scattering is what it is, in practice.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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Well, as I've said, my Archdeacon's answer was No - No Scattering Allowed On Church Grounds/Premises.
However, after a long pastoral chat with deceased's parents yesterday after church, one or two Good Ideas have emerged, which we shall explore over the next few weeks.....
*sigh*
Yet another Sin of Omission of our retired Father Fuckwit, who should have sorted this out over a year ago, soon after deceased died....
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
IJ
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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At our church a certain large flower bed has been designated the Scattering Area. It is right by the main building, and so is unlikely to ever be redone into parking/playground/septic field, and it is always well-maintained with flowers, trees, etc. because you have to walk past it to get to the door. There is no sign or notice on the area -- if you want a plaque or a monument or something you should go to a real cemetery and get a niche. But it is quietly available if you ask. (This is also where the Altar Guild quietly ditches ruined or broken consecrated wafers. Our earth sink is temperamental and can accept only wine.)
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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That's the way to do it - and we may eventually do the same (sans scattering - interment of ashes only), once we get a faculty (Church-of-England-speak for a sort of licence from the Archdemon....er....Archdeacon, or Bishop).
In the UK, Anglican parish churches are Public Places, so there are all sorts of Rules and Regulations as to what can or can't be done. The churches are not the private preserve of Father Fuckwit and/or his Churchwardens, whatever he/they might think.
If you think you detect some bitterness, you are right. It's Me wot is copping the fallout...
IJ
Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on
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I think the RCC, at least, disallows scattering ashes or keeping them at home because, being a denomination that does many things that other people consider superstitious (and acknowledging that many sects it has deemed heretical or schismatic started with a disagreement over what was superstitious and what wasn't), the RCC feels a need to carefully monitor and police anything symbolic that people do in their private spiritual lives, even if the people doing think they are only following their own (and their loved one's) tastes and personality rather than expressing any unorthodox religious belief.
Also, since a lot of Protestant traditions are more rooted in beliefs, texts, and simple, (often) adaptable rituals, that means that it is easier for them to Christianize secular (and "spiritual but not religious") practices than the RCC, which in turn I believe has an advantage in Christianizing the religious traditions of non-Western converts (this is different than Christianizing Eastern, African, and Indigenous Spiritualities that have been adopted by Westerners, which I think Protestants who are neither too liberal or too fundamentalist have an advantage at, since they don't have to worry about how those practices are different from their own ritualisms (I say ritualism because I do not want to claim that Protestants do not have rituals)). That last sentence is a big tangent that can be debated on another thread. All of this means that in my opinion, the RCC is worried about westerners adopting practices of secular philosophies and spiritualities (or mere fads - although we know the de facto life of many RC priests and laypeople are full of doctrinally-questionable fads that the Vatican dislikes). Because RC doctrine is tied to very specific and elaborate rites, it thinks it is in more danger of losing adherents (or of its adherents' veering away from orthodox belief) if they begin to experiment with rites from other traditions, or rites of their own. This has led to quite a few overreactions from the RCC hierarchy over the centuries.
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But how does the 'no definite place' thing square with allowing the scattering of ashes at sea, then- because even if anyone kids themselves that it's the burial of ashes at sea, scattering is what it is, in practice.
Does the CofE approve of the scattering of ashes at sea?
I would've assumed that the orthodox CofE response would've been 'no, we don't do that, because that's scattering of ashes which we disapprove of' or 'we can bury the body at sea', or 'intern the ashes on land'.
Maybe there's a navy chaplain on board Ship who can comment as to the official line!
Personally, I don't see the problem with scattered ashes, in principle. Any body that is in the earth or the ocean long enough eventually disintegrates to the point of complete dissolution anyway.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Does the CofE approve of the scattering of ashes at sea?
Good question. My understanding was that burial of ashes at sea involved some kind of container (cf. coffin, weighted sailcloth,...) so that the ashes sank as one, vs the scattering of ashes.
Clearly, the C of E permits burial at sea.
Here's Canon B38 4(b):
quote:
(b) The ashes of a cremated body should be reverently disposed of by a minister in a churchyard or other burial ground in accordance with section 3 of the Church of England (Miscellaneous Provisions) Measure 1992 or on an area of land designated by the bishop for the purpose of this sub-paragraph or at sea.
clearly indicating that ashes may be buried at sea. I suspect that "scattering" fails to satisfy the requirements of "reverently disposed" whether on land or at sea.
[ 10. July 2017, 21:32: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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When I was a chaplain's assistant at the Missions to Seamen (as it then was) in Southampton 25 years ago- rather traditional chaplain, then in his 60s, originally CofI but with the Mission for almost all his ministry- the drill for disposal of ashes at sea was IIRC something like this:
Board pilot boat with chaplain and relatives; go out to designated point in Solent; chaplain robes, engine stops, ensign lowered to half mast; chaplain says some prayers on deck; assistant (i.e. me) kneels and reverently and carefully pours ashes out of container onto surface of water; possibly one more prayer; ensign raised, engine starts, chaplain goes below to disrobe, boat returns to harbour. Although the ashes were not scattered onto the water there's no doubt that they would be dispersed pretty quickly.
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
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Really interesting to know that! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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Indeed!
Latest on Deceased's Ashes (sounds like a fillum) - parents are thinking of having them scattered or interred on their own land i.e. garden, so I've said I'd be happy to conduct a short service for the occasion, if that's what they decide.
AIUI, it's quite OK to do this, though if they came to sell the house, they'd have to declare via the lawyers that human remains were present.
Is that right?
IJ
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Although the ashes were not scattered onto the water there's no doubt that they would be dispersed pretty quickly.
Interesting, thanks Albertus.
Do the ashes all sink immediately, or do some remain on the surface of the water?
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Indeed!
Latest on Deceased's Ashes (sounds like a fillum) - parents are thinking of having them scattered or interred on their own land i.e. garden, so I've said I'd be happy to conduct a short service for the occasion, if that's what they decide.
AIUI, it's quite OK to do this, though if they came to sell the house, they'd have to declare via the lawyers that human remains were present.
Is that right?
IJ
Everything depends upon the jurisdiction. Ask in the area where the house is. The simplest way to do this might be to phone or email a local funeral home or cemetery. Be sure and mention that you're only looking for information and not in the market for services.
Or, if you would tell me what state of the union (I trust it's the US) is in question, I can give you the contact number for the state's Cemetery Association. I have a database...
[ 12. July 2017, 17:34: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Although the ashes were not scattered onto the water there's no doubt that they would be dispersed pretty quickly.
Interesting, thanks Albertus.
Do the ashes all sink immediately, or do some remain on the surface of the water?
I think some, maybe most, remained on the surface, but I can't remember.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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Thanks, Brenda. I'm in the UK, but your suggestion is still apposite, and, before the Deceased's Parents come to a decision, I'll consult local authority etc.
IJ
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
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Last time I did it it was in a wheat field overlooking a family's homestead just outside of town. To think the matriarch's ashes helped to nourish the wheat that is being produced in the field---and to think that that wheat has fed hungry people throughout the world... Powerful.
My folks' ashes will eventually be scattered up in the Sawtooth Mountains, in a meadow where the extended family would gather to cut firewood for their homes.
Our congregation has a rose garden where ashes can be scattered. So designated and approved by the city.
Posted by irreverend tod (# 18773) on
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Hi Bishops, we just dug a hole, bunged ashes in minus the container and planted the tree on top. By the time we get to sell the house nothing will be left so I doubt if mas will fess up to planting pa in the garden.
FYI, and sorry to be late the discussion, the C of E also requires the whole load of ashes to be buried in one place. We had a burial of ashes where they had been split with the remainder scattered. We had to restrain father holy thing from digging up the interred remains in a state of canonical hysteria.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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I think I've mentioned this before on a thread, but cremated ashes are not nutrients. People think they must be because you can buy bone meal for the garden. But bone meal is crushed and ground up animal bones, the residue after people have eaten the meat of the animals.
When a person is cremated, all the nutrients have gone up the chimney. What's left has nothing to give back to the soil.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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Yes, if you really want to return nutrients to the circle of life, put the phrase 'green burial' into the search window. Cremation is quite a different thing.
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
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quote:
Originally posted by irreverend tod:
FYI, and sorry to be late the discussion, the C of E also requires the whole load of ashes to be buried in one place. We had a burial of ashes where they had been split with the remainder scattered. We had to restrain father holy thing from digging up the interred remains in a state of canonical hysteria.
Father holy thing would, of course, have remembered that even interred ashes require a Home Office exhumation application!
Hoooh boy! Nearly been there, done that! Little old lady decided she didn't like where her husband's ashes had ended up; wanted the box back over ten years after it had gone into the graveyard. Thankfully she decided it wasn't worth the application and diocesan faculty fees, or the time and effort required.
It would arguably have been better if the ashes had been scattered - done and dusted (so to speak!). For some people having a physical resting place as focus for their loved one's remains is a good reason for not scattering. But for some folks, it can turn into a bit of an unhelpful obsession.
Posted by irreverend tod (# 18773) on
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Enoch, we bunged a tree over him to remember where he got planted. It was all done with due reverence and a load of well rotted manure, because pa reckoned the regulations of the church on burials were all bulls**t. Needless to say we didn't involve the clergy.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I think I've mentioned this before on a thread, but cremated ashes are not nutrients.
The Calcium phosphates in bone ash are not very soluble, but probably would act as a source of phosphate for your plants if you have acidic soil.
All, in all, they'd make better china. (And I note that there is someone doing exactly that.)
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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The number of things to do with cremains is very, very large. Coral reefs, jewelry, into orbit on a space ship, loaded into a firework -- there's dozens of businesses doing things. And then you have Keith Richards, snorting them.
Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on
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And I heard recently about someone who is making them into pills, so that you can swallow the remains of your loved one.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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That noise you just heard was me throwing up.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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I can't remember if I've told this story on SoF before. But I work at a trade association in the funeral industry. I got a phone call earlier this summer from a woman whose dog had died. She said, "I'm really in grief." I said I was sorry to hear that. She said, "I had my dog cremated." I agreed this was a good thing. She said, "I've missed Fluffy so much, I've been opening the urn and sniffing the ashes."
At this point I ground to a halt. She was not interested in stopping. All she wanted to know was if she could get a disease from huffing her dog's ashes, like rabies. I said (true!) that the cremators go to over 1600 degrees and pathogens don't survive. But I did add that I didn't think it was a good idea.
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The number of things to do with cremains is very, very large. Coral reefs, jewelry, into orbit on a space ship, loaded into a firework -- there's dozens of businesses doing things. And then you have Keith Richards, snorting them.
And another option...
All seems a bit weird to me.
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