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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW 3201: Hillsong, Bermondsey
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The trouble is that very liberal theologies don't reproduce themselves very effectively nowadays. They don't usually send young people into ministerial training or keep young laypeople in the church. So as Galloping Granny has noticed, today's ministerial candidates are likely to be fairly orthodox.
Aside from questioning that the poles are "liberal" and "orthodox" rather than "liberal/progressive" – "conservative/evangelical," this is not my experience at all. My experience is that the majority of students at our seminaries fall into the moderate-to-liberal side of the theological (and political) spectrum. It's also my experience that it is much more common for a congregation to have a minister who is more liberal than the congregation as a whole than for a minister to be more conservative than his or her congregation.
[ 02. August 2017, 11:32: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Yes, the terminology is debatable. But in Galloping Granny's church, mere orthodoxy appears to be open to question, not just evangelicalism.
She's also in New Zealand, which I think is similar to the UK in being highly secularised. In such a context, liberal or even just fairly moderate Christianity struggles to make its mark between evangelical (or just very orthodox) Christianity on the one hand and widespread indifference to or ignorance about Christianity on the other.
Comments that new candidates for ministerial training are more and more likely to be evangelical aren't new. I know a theologian who made the same comment a few years ago about the ecumenical college where he worked. One comes across similar claims occasionally in writing. It's unsurprising, because evangelical churches tend to have a higher proportion of young people, and hence produce more young candidates for the ministry.
But I admit that it's probably more of an issue in my (and GG's) country than in yours.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
My experience (admittedly anecdotal, and in a C of E context) of helping many people find spiritual direction, is that the majority come from a fairly conservative (even extreme) evangelical background but are increasingly dissatisfied with this and are looking for a more liturgical-sacramental-mystical type of Christianity. It's age-related to some extent but even people in their 20s and 30s are feeling this.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I just wanted to add that the claim that ministers are often more liberal than their congregations is something I've come across myself. I think it's true. But in Britain it seems to refer mainly to an older generation of clergy - middle aged or above. Especially in mainstream congregations.
On the Ship, I get the impression that the clergy posters are often more liberal than their congregations. But the layfolk here often seem to chafe against church leaders who are more conservative than themselves. It's just a general impression, obviously with many exceptions.
At places like Hillsong, where evangelism and discipleship are priorities, I suspect the latter situation is more usual.
[ 02. August 2017, 12:20: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
On training for ministry: the newer charismatic churches mostly espouse in-house training, I think. This obviously has its dangers of perpetuating or watering down theology and practice. In my early days in fundamentalist churches we went away to BIBLE Colleges, not Theological colleges which were seen as too 'liberal'. In my experience people who were charismatic in personality / behaviour sometimes became pastors without any formal training and I believe this is a common practice in 'African' congregations in London and probably elsewhere.
Just a wild guess but I would suspect Hillsong to fit someone in these scenarios, possibly the first. I could be wrong, and hope I am FWIW.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
My experience (admittedly anecdotal, and in a C of E context) of helping many people find spiritual direction, is that the majority come from a fairly conservative (even extreme) evangelical background but are increasingly dissatisfied with this and are looking for a more liturgical-sacramental-mystical type of Christianity. It's age-related to some extent but even people in their 20s and 30s are feeling this.
My experience too.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
My experience (admittedly anecdotal, and in a C of E context) of helping many people find spiritual direction, is that the majority come from a fairly conservative (even extreme) evangelical background but are increasingly dissatisfied with this and are looking for a more liturgical-sacramental-mystical type of Christianity. It's age-related to some extent but even people in their 20s and 30s are feeling this.
It also cuts the other way. In the charismatic churches, one often sees newcomers who have been brought up in the more ecclesiastically conservative environs of Anglicanism, but have been put off by the lifelessness of all things liturgical, often abandoning church and then coming back to faith later in life.
Perhaps both are instances of familiarity breeding contempt, with the petulance of youth leading them in search of their own kind of novelty. Then, later in life, people settle.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
On training for ministry: the newer charismatic churches mostly espouse in-house training, I think. This obviously has its dangers of perpetuating or watering down theology and practice. In my early days in fundamentalist churches we went away to BIBLE Colleges, not Theological colleges which were seen as too 'liberal'. In my experience people who were charismatic in personality / behaviour sometimes became pastors without any formal training and I believe this is a common practice in 'African' congregations in London and probably elsewhere.
Just a wild guess but I would suspect Hillsong to fit someone in these scenarios, possibly the first. I could be wrong, and hope I am FWIW.
The nature of cell-churches (if, as appears to be the case, Hillsong follows a version of that model) is that the church has a large number of "pastors" - the majority of members will only know the leader(s) of their cell, who will have the primary role in teaching and pastoral care. One would assume that they're expected to be "on message" with the teaching of the senior pastors of the church, but in practice they will all have their own views which will inform their actions. With the number of pastors needed, there would be a sufficient number of people to make an in-house training system practical. There's nothing inherently wrong with an in-house system (otherwise we should shut down all those denominational seminaries, which are a different form of in-house ministerial training). The question is the quality of that training.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Before we carry on this speculation may I point out that a quick google turns up this institution. You are welcome to explore.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Lifelessness and liveliness are often in the eye of the beholder, Sipech.
I don't find things liturgical lifeless, nor do I find apparently lively things to be as lively as the participants imagine they are.
I'm not knocking one or t'other.
For my own part, I'm glad I've had experience of both and been exposed to both.
On balance, I'd concede that my appreciation of things liturgical has been enhanced in some way by doing all the lively stuff.
It's a funny thing, but the first few times I revisited more liturgical settings after years of 'liveliness' I thought, 'Hey, this is great ... Why didn't I notice all this the first time round?'
There might be some symbiotic connection and relationship. I needed the liveliness to shake things from my head to my heart. I needed the liturgy to move things back up to my head ...
But it's both/and - I feel a heart-connection with some forms of liturgy in as goose-bumpy a way as anything I ever did in my full-on charismatic days.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
I heard a comment more than once some time ago, that the contemporary theology that we were interested in was basic stuff taught in all theological colleges but didn't reach the people in the pews because 'the minister has to feed his wife and children'.
Certainly while our Progressive lay supply boldly explains his theology, the people in our pews love him, but a whole bunch of them happily toddled off to six sessions of an Alpha prayer course. In a private chat with one of the younger (than me!) women I had the impression that her faith was quite orthodox.
As a lay preacher in my other church when I'm on holiday, which is depressingly conservative, I find it's not difficult to speak of say a gospel story and its situation and message without either abandoning my own convictions or contradicting theirs.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Before we carry on this speculation may I point out that a quick google turns up this institution. You are welcome to explore.
Jengie
Thank you. Quite interesting and informative. As might be expected, they are light on 'theology' and heavy on practice. 'In house' seems an appropriate description. I wonder who else accepts the qualifications as appropriate for ministry?
I may have missed it - nothing about 'cross cultural' training, which surprises me.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
As someone from Sydney with some years experience in such colleges, I would comment that to me, that site says more in what it does not say than in what is written there. I did not attend there but have been a student and on staff in other coilleges and have known Hillsong students.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Alan notes quote:
The nature of cell-churches (if, as appears to be the case, Hillsong follows a version of that model) is that the church has a large number of "pastors" - the majority of members will only know the leader(s) of their cell, who will have the primary role in teaching and pastoral care.
Is it also usual, as it seemed to me in my searches, that the 'pastors' are almost invariably young couples?
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Is it also usual, as it seemed to me in my searches, that the 'pastors' are almost invariably young couples?
GG
Yes. And, if you'll note their web photos, the woman is generally depicted as being shorter than the man and clinging to him.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Galloping Granny
Some research suggests that American clergy who are more liberal than their congregations are more likely to experience low levels of job satisfaction.
This is worrying. There must be a limit to the effectiveness of a church where the congregation and clergy aren't on the same page.
Please can we have one of them?
Preferably Presbyterian But we swap round a lot; our neighbouring presbyterian/Methodist church has a minister poached from the baptists and before that a Sally Army man (when two elders were licensed to preside at Communion) both wonderful ministers.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Is it also usual, as it seemed to me in my searches, that the 'pastors' are almost invariably young couples?
GG
Yes. And, if you'll note their web photos, the woman is generally depicted as being shorter than the man and clinging to him.
Women in a ministry rôle! Would not happen in a Sydney Anglican church where the ministers all have lovely wives, that being their function in life.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Galloping Granny
Some research suggests that American clergy who are more liberal than their congregations are more likely to experience low levels of job satisfaction.
This is worrying. There must be a limit to the effectiveness of a church where the congregation and clergy aren't on the same page.
Please can we have one of them?
GG
If you're able to get someone a work visa, perhaps you could look abroad for your new minister? The USA probably produces quite a lot of liberal candidates as it's such a religiously diverse country.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
@GeeD - our now-retired Father Fuckwit was always wittering on about his Lovely Wife. He did on one occasion remark to me that he had 'no problem with wimmin, as long as they kept their pinafores on, and didn't leave the kitchen'. This from an Anglo-Catholic priest, but with a rather fundamentalist evo background from years ago.
@SvitlanaV2 - the Vicar of the Church Of My Yoof once did a six-months' stint as Rector of a TEC parish (I forget in which state/diocese). Our two curates (yes, it was a long time ago) managed our parish in the meantime, so we didn't have the benefit of the ministry of an ECUSA (as it was then) priest. I wonder if these reciprocal arrangements still exist?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
@GeeD - our now-retired Father Fuckwit was always wittering on about his Lovely Wife.
That always makes me want to ask about the Other (Less Lovely) Wife which he must be hiding somewhere.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
His first wife died some years ago, but he was always wittering on about her as well. However, he always referred to her as his Dear Wife, so that we knew of whom he was speaking.
Frankly, his gushing uxoriousness became somewhat annoying to his tiny congregation of divorced, celibate, Living-In-Sin, gay/bisexual etc. peeps...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Lovely wives spend their time looking after the house, filled with 3 delightful children. They have no independent relationship with their husband's church, although they may teach at Sunday School, help with any flower guild (usually these were disbanded some years ago) and of course simper around generally. No movement since 1957, in other words.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Galloping Granny
Some research suggests that American clergy who are more liberal than their congregations are more likely to experience low levels of job satisfaction.
This is worrying. There must be a limit to the effectiveness of a church where the congregation and clergy aren't on the same page.
Please can we have one of them?
GG
If you're able to get someone a work visa, perhaps you could look abroad for your new minister? The USA probably produces quite a lot of liberal candidates as it's such a religiously diverse country.
It's not uncommon for congregations to calla minister from overseas, either for a permanent posting or for a year's swap. We had a great American about 40 years ago; he'd been a nuclear physicist before entering the ministry. A couple from our congregation returned a few weeks ago from visiting his widow, and today heard that she had had a stroke and died, aged almost 90.
Which is irrelevant, of course; I don't know whether our committee have thought of looking abroad.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Great news in church today: we have a prospect who is preaching for a call in two weeks' time – when I shall be in hospital.
His present parish is not far away. I drove past the church yesterday and remarked to the cousin I was with that I hadn't heard anything about that church for many years but they used to be known as the most theologically conservative in the region. However we've been assured that he knows all about us and while he might not be as Progressive as our Lay Supply he shouldn't be too far off.
Those who won't be present are hoping for either a recording or at least a transcript of sermon.
Any problems and we'll just have to teach him. At my age you can get away with a lot, but it was many years ago that I gently scolded a visiting preacher for saying 'In this Psalm David says...' when there are only a handful of psalms that could possibly have been written by David.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Those who won't be present are hoping for either a recording or at least a transcript of sermon.
Any problems and we'll just have to teach him.
That's interesting. I've never heard of liberal congregations requiring copies of the sermons before. Is it so you can analyse how progressive the preacher is, and whether you need to 'teach' him? I don't know if I'd want to preach under those circumstances! But maybe your chap is very young and keen to develop his progressive credentials.
Otherwise, if you expect to know just as much as - or even more than - the preacher then I'm not sure what point there is in hearing or reading his/her words.
The best thing would surely be for the visiting preacher to attend some of your services in advance. Then he'll know what kind of thing the congregation expects.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Lovely wives spend their time looking after the house, filled with 3 delightful children. They have no independent relationship with their husband's church, although they may teach at Sunday School, help with any flower guild (usually these were disbanded some years ago) and of course simper around generally. No movement since 1957, in other words.
I'd better show that to Mrs Mark .... on second thoughts I want to live longer than today so perhaps not.
I can identify the type though. In a previous church I was asked to preach on the subject of wives not working: I refused of course as Mrs M was the 1st Minister's wife in that church to work.
I gave the church a straightforward choice - 3 children at university, fees to pay. If Mrs M didn't work then would they like to increase my stipend accordingly?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Your family must have been the wrong demographic fit for that church. Previous ministerial families there were probably less upwardly-mobile.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Those who won't be present are hoping for either a recording or at least a transcript of sermon.
Any problems and we'll just have to teach him.
That's interesting. I've never heard of liberal congregations requiring copies of the sermons before. Is it so you can analyse how progressive the preacher is, and whether you need to 'teach' him? I don't know if I'd want to preach under those circumstances! But maybe your chap is very young and keen to develop his progressive credentials.
Otherwise, if you expect to know just as much as - or even more than - the preacher then I'm not sure what point there is in hearing or reading his/her words.
The best thing would surely be for the visiting preacher to attend some of your services in advance. Then he'll know what kind of thing the congregation expects.
If I were involved in a selection process (Saint Vartan's, where I once was a member, had a rector twice imposed by bishops without a selection process, so I escaped that), I would like to see a few written sermons to understand: 1) if the candidate can think things through, 2) if they have a narrow or broad base of reading, 3) exactly which hobbyhorse they were riding, and 4) perhaps an inkling of their theology.
Having dealt with a few clergy who were really not interested in what the congregation expected, Svitlana's suggestion that they attend is not a bad start, but it's only a start.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Your family must have been the wrong demographic fit for that church. Previous ministerial families there were probably less upwardly-mobile.
Or else, perhaps, they were childless.
Or they left before their children got to Uni. age.
Or (like me) were to old to have Uni.-age children.
Or were there years ago, when far fewer young people went on to higher education.
Or had "private means" or wealthy (and generous) parents ...
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
If I were involved in a selection process
... I would like to see a few written sermons to understand: 1) if the candidate can think things through, 2) if they have a narrow or broad base of reading, 3) exactly which hobbyhorse they were riding, and 4) perhaps an inkling of their theology.
I agree. And, of course, many churches now have links to sermons on their websites, which you can read and/or listen to.
When "preaching with a view" I cunningly and deliberately dropped in a few phrases and comments to see if people would pick them up and, if so, what their response would be. Nothing too controversial, but wanted people to be able to have a feel for "what they would be getting" if they decided to call me.
Of course, ministry isn't just about sermons!
[ 14. August 2017, 15:34: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I would like to see a few written sermons to understand: 1) if the candidate can think things through
In this diocese, candidates have to give a presentation at interview to demonstrate this.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
That reminds me of the time when I was training as a Lay Reader. In those far-off days, one had to go and preach a sermon to the Warden of Readers, in his study.
I duly did so, the elderly Canon Warden sitting back (eyes closed) in his big, old, leather armchair. I reached the end of my oration, and the Warden sat quietly for a few moments before saying 'First, the good point...'
You will, of course, note the use of the singular.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Those who won't be present are hoping for either a recording or at least a transcript of sermon.
Any problems and we'll just have to teach him.
That's interesting. I've never heard of liberal congregations requiring copies of the sermons before. Is it so you can analyse how progressive the preacher is, and whether you need to 'teach' him? I don't know if I'd want to preach under those circumstances! But maybe your chap is very young and keen to develop his progressive credentials.
Otherwise, if you expect to know just as much as - or even more than - the preacher then I'm not sure what point there is in hearing or reading his/her words.
The best thing would surely be for the visiting preacher to attend some of your services in advance. Then he'll know what kind of thing the congregation expects.
It's those who will be absent who hope to know what he reveals when 'preaching for a call', the whole point of which is to give the congregation a chance to approve of the committee's choice. He's not a young thing, and has had extensive discussions with the selection committee, and obviously feels he has more in common with us than previous candidates did.
The 'just have to teach him' comment was made with tongue in cheek, which one cannot to easily on a computer screen.
Actually, a number of our Lay Supply's sermons are on our website so he may well have read them; and maybe there are sermons of our candidate on his present church's website; I must have a look.
GG
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I suspect that Svitlana62 may not have picked up the idiom in "teach".
Many churches have online videos of sermons, many more have the texts online the day after the sermon's been delivered. I don't know why a progressive, liberal parish may be more or less interested in including this sort of detail in the search for a new minister than a conservative one. I'd have thought that both would want to find out what a prospective candidate's approach is like, as well as the preaching style.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
His current parish has a Facebook page which has been inactive for some time. No help there.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Don't misunderstand me. As in any congregation, there is a wide range of personal belief, but we don't let that bother us. The basic teaching of Jesus and the love of God is what unites us.
We just need to know that he isn't, say, rigidly evangelical, and the committee will have sorted that one out.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Those who won't be present are hoping for either a recording or at least a transcript of sermon.
Within my tradition that would be for academic interest only, because only those present when the candidate preaches with a view¹ would be able to vote (the vote would normally happen at the end of a Church Meeting immediately following the service). By the time those who are absent get to hear/read the sermon the process would have been concluded.
¹ Which can sometimes lead to people still on the membership role turning up for the first time in years just as the service starts, and leaving immediately after the votes have been cast and counted to not be seen again for several more years. In one case at a former church they did so just to vote "no".
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
And in my corner of my tradition, only the search committee would actually hear the candidate preach; the congregation would not. The congregation calls a pastor relying solely on the committee's recommendation.
Svitlana, it has nothing to do with liberal or conservative. It has to do with the importance of preaching in some traditions. If I recall correctly, Galloping Granny, like me, comes from a Presbyterian tradition, where preaching is central. When I served on a search committee, a survey showed that the first thing the congregation was looking for was a good preacher. (Good pastoral care came in second.) But really, we didn't need a survey to tell us that; it was pretty much a given.
I can't tell you how many sermons we read, listened to or watched on video. Finalists we listened to in person. The point was to make sure the candidate was a really good preacher with a style and approach (yes, including theological perspectives) that would resonate with and challenge our congregation. We were looking at many other things too, of course.
We hit the jackpot, btw. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Which can sometimes lead to people still on the membership role turning up for the first time in years.
Tangent:// That is why Communion cards used to be issued - if one hadn't been present at Communion without good reason for (say) six months, one retained one's membership but lost the right to vote. //:Ends.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Your family must have been the wrong demographic fit for that church. Previous ministerial families there were probably less upwardly-mobile.
Or else, perhaps, they were childless.
Or they left before their children got to Uni. age.
Or (like me) were to old to have Uni.-age children.
Or were there years ago, when far fewer young people went on to higher education.
Or had "private means" or wealthy (and generous) parents ...
Of course, you're quite right.
However, what unites all of these points with mine is that they're utterly practical. The theology is neither here nor there. So perhaps the moral of the story is not to become a minister at such a church unless your wife has a 'real life' reason for not getting a paid job! The demographics (age, class, qualifications, etc.) remain relevant.
But seriously, it must be difficult for evangelical ministers to find a post that's exactly the right fit for them and their families. I think MOTR clergy generally expect to be more liberal than their congregations, and they're often employed by and paid from a central denominational authority, so what a congregation believes about this, that or the other doesn't matter to them so much. If evangelical clergy are expected to be more particular about the theology while also needing to pay their bills out of their congregation's offerings I'm sure that creates more room for conflict.
I assume that the CofE's evangelical clergy must have the best of both worlds; they can hope to be placed with congenial evangelical congregations, but if that doesn't work out at least they'll still get paid....
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Svitlana, it has nothing to do with liberal or conservative. It has to do with the importance of preaching in some traditions. If I recall correctly, Galloping Granny, like me, comes from a Presbyterian tradition, where preaching is central. When I served on a search committee, a survey showed that the first thing the congregation was looking for was a good preacher. (Good pastoral care came in second.) But really, we didn't need a survey to tell us that; it was pretty much a given.
I can't tell you how many sermons we read, listened to or watched on video.
You're talking about listening to sermons as part of the hiring and/or training process. I didn't realise that Galloping Granny was originally referring to that kind of scenario. I thought it was just a case of a visiting preacher stepping in to fill a gap. I didn't see why this new person's sermon would need to be recorded and analysed, but now it makes more sense.
[ 15. August 2017, 13:54: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Svitlana, I'm sorry if I initially gave a misleading impression.
I think that theology in this case is at least as critical as preaching, in that there would be a range of theology among the members but no dedicated evangelicals, and it seems that the eager candidates for ministry training at the moment seem to be of that kind. So I suppose that if a sermon doesn't totally fit with one's personal belief pattern one would think 'That was interesting' and get on with what needed doing, and maybe discuss it with the preacher if he had a good relationship with his flock.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Which can sometimes lead to people still on the membership role turning up for the first time in years.
Tangent:// That is why Communion cards used to be issued - if one hadn't been present at Communion without good reason for (say) six months, one retained one's membership but lost the right to vote. //:Ends.
Not really, many churches would not have done it that way.
Originally communion tokens (the predecessor of cards) were used to show who could be trusted as Presbyterian and not to report the illegal communion service to the authorities.
Later they became a method of assessing who was fit to come to communion. Only those judged by the minister or the elder to be in good moral and theological position would receive a card and thus be able to come to communion.
Finally, they came a way of assessing pastoral care. That is a way of making sure elders visited their flock regularly between communions.
In my home congregation receiving a communion card was a convenience for members(you did not need to sign in on a sheet) but nothing more. So if you were suspended from voting it would be because you were not recorded at communion, not because you did not present the card. However, I never heard of anyone having the right to vote withdrawn while remaining a member. I have heard of removal from the role for not attending communion. The grounds being that you had effectively excommunicated yourself but this is full removal from membership.
Jengie
[ 16. August 2017, 09:44: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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irreverend tod
Shipmate
# 18773
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Posted
quote:
I gave the church a straightforward choice - 3 children at university, fees to pay. If Mrs M didn't work then would they like to increase my stipend accordingly?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Diocesan Arsonist and Lead thief to the Church of England.
Posts: 55 | From: England | Registered: May 2017
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irreverend tod
Shipmate
# 18773
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Posted
In our parish we would not only listen to the preaching, but also have a good sniff round the applicants parish to any unfiltered information.
This might sound underhand, but there have been too many parishes who have agreed to appoint a vicar (with tenure) based on a very rose tinted (or downright inaccurate) version of them from the diocese or archdeaconary. We are in a benefice of many rural parishes and have been lied to by candidates and officialdom in the past. We stop short of negatively vetting, but it's not far off, as getting shot of a C of E priest is hard work and never goes well for anyone.
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Diocesan Arsonist and Lead thief to the Church of England.
Posts: 55 | From: England | Registered: May 2017
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irreverend tod:
In our parish we would not only listen to the preaching, but also have a good sniff round the applicants parish to any unfiltered information.
Yes. Some parishes have learnt this the hard way (very hard indeed, in some cases).
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
It works the other way too: prospective clergy do well (if they can) to find out as much as possible about the church they might serve.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Quite interesting, but only quite. The writer clearly didn't get what the place she was visiting was about. She seems mainly interested in what celebs do, and what the members of the congregation are wearing, whether their jeans are stylish or not.
She doesn't even seem to appreciate that 'join' in a church context doesn't mean the same as 'visit'!
A preacher who has publicly endorsed Trump would be a full-blown no for me. It would call into question whether I would trust anything he or she said about anything else or could be kosher. But the journalist doesn't seem even to know that Hillsong is Australian, not based wherever this Revd Franklin comes from.
And yet again, this journalistic infatuation with what boxes a person ticks on a single dead horse issue.
So two cheers at the most.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Scots lass
Shipmate
# 2699
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Posted
I'm inclined to agree with you, Enoch. I was interested in how Hillsong came across to someone who was obviously not that familiar with church, but it's not like she was going with an open mind. It was more of an "investigate these weirdos" feel, so two cheers at most seems about right!
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