quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I would agree with Pomona up to a point, but do bear in mind that older churches - both rural and urban - don't always have adequate WC and/or parking/catering facilities for themselves, let alone for outside bodies whose events might well bring in a lot more people than attend worship on Sundays!

These problems can, of course, often be solved with a bit of ingenuity, but where does the £££ to do so come from?

IJ

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
St Sepulchre's has been known as The Musicians' Church for more than a century. It has a special chapel with many memorials to musicians and stained glass of depictions of St Cecilia and Dame Nellie Melba and Henry Wood's ashes lie under the floor. It is also the resting place of Roger Ascham, tutor to Elizabeth I and latin secretary to Mary I.

When the St Cecilia Festival Service was revived after WWII it was first held at St Sepulchre's before the size of the event meant a switch to an even larger building. And the church has long been the venue of choice for memorial services for distinguished musicians.

The concerts held in the church have been going on since the time of Sir Henry Wood (died 1946) and have been held in the church NOT so it can raise revenue but because of its size and fine acoustic.

When the HTB lot asked to move in on St Sepulchre's they gave an undertaking that they would leave the church's musicial heritage alone: in other words, let the concerts and memorial services continue. However, almost from the beginning they have shamefully reneged on the promises they made and now are trying to force out the Musicians Benevolent Fund (and others); in addition the liturgical musical tradition of the church has been chucked out.

Yet another example of the good faith and probity of HTB and all its ilk.

---

quote:

---

I appreciate that St. Sepulchre's is a special case, given its history of musical connections, but has anything similar happened at any other HTB plants?

---

You could try looking at St Thomas, Heigham (Norwich) where an HTB plant has fundamentally changed the liturgical pattern, alienated a large percentage of the congregation, disbanded the choir, seen off the Director of Music (President of the Norwich Organists' Association) and where the future of the historic organ in the church must now be viewed with grave concern.

The 'plant' people would argue that they have increased congregation size - but they would since they arrived with 60 people. They'd also argue that people now attend who weren't in church before - but that ignores those who were there are who have now left. And while they have attracted some younger people the majority of these are students at the nearby university so unlikely to stay with the parish long-term.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I've been to a performance of Orthodox chorale music in St Sepulchre's. Lovely.

Seems a shame to hear what's happening now. However, I'd like to hear both sides. It's not as if there aren't lively evangelical churches in that part of London already, though.

That said, I've heard good accounts from liberals and somewhat High Church people about what happens when an HTB plant takes root, and they've been pleasantly surprised as to how it has complemented rather than crushed what's already been there.

I suspect there are good and bad instances.
 

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Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on :
 
Shameful act of ecclesiatical masturbation.

Definition of church planting.

[ 19. August 2017, 15:13: Message edited by: ThunderBunk ]
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
We've heard about a couple of 'bad' instances of HTB plants, but, as Gamaliel points out, there are 'good' instances. Let's hear about one or two of them, please.

I'm not a great fan of HTB's style, which ISTM can sometimes be rather shallow, but, if they can reinvigorate a failing local parish church in the backstreets somewhere, bully for them. As long as that church carries on being the local church in its backstreets, IYSWIM.

I speak as one who might actually quite like to see a dozen or so movers-and-shakers coming to ginger up the rather weary faithful few at Our Place!

IJ
 

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Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on :
 
Well, be careful what you wish for, Bishop's Finger.

They'd go back to where they came from soon enough. Rather like bees, they have to have travelled a considerable distance in order to establish a genuinely new colony. Otherwise, the new people will just be coming in from the local such congregation, and will return when the population of new people is insufficient to sustain colonial excitement, and/or the colonists remember that they used to have a life when they went to church half as often.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
That may happen, it may not. In the church I mentioned above, the new arrivals may or may not have stayed; I have no idea. But they did provide enough "oomph" for the church, 15+ years on, to now be a thriving parish church.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
ThunderBunk, as I posted, I had exactly that same thought, and you are, of course, right to counsel wariness.

I'm just getting weary of taking one step forward, and two steps back, and would welcome some help...

BT, it is indeed 'oomph' that we need.

IJ
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Gosh, I can so identify with your comments.

When the Minister of a small church in London, I grew so tired of (a) new "exciting" churches starting up in our backyard rather than coming to help the less exciting churches that were already there and (b) peoppe who came along and said, "Oh, we were looking for a bigger church" and never came back. So much for sacrificially building the Kingdom of God.

Of course, I don't deny that "old" churches can be cliqueish and very closed to new ideas and people.

[ 19. August 2017, 17:39: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
 

---

Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Gosh, I can so identify with your comments.

When the Minister of a small church in London, I grew so tired of (a) new "exciting" churches starting up in our backyard rather than coming to help the less exciting churches that were already there and (b) peoppe who came along and said, "Oh, we were looking for a bigger church" and never came back. So much for sacrificially building the Kingdom of God.

Of course, I don't deny that "old" churches can be cliqueish and very closed to new ideas and people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
On the other hand, the newcomers can give the impression that locals are no longer wanted, especially if they come from a different (i.e. posher and more articulate) social background.

---

Or the opposite. Many congregations in Arizona are actually having services in Spanish and welcoming Hispanics!


(Not my reaction -- I was thrilled when my church added a Spanish service, but it has upset some "posher" congregations.)
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
The result (so far) of the HTB plant in Norwich has been to give some aid to surrounding parishes in the shape of people who feel 'pushed out' going to other places, however, on the whole these have been the older generation. The younger people who now feel unwelcome it would seem have largely decided that the CofE is not for them on the basis that it is (in their eyes) distinctly un-Christian for an outside governing body - bishop, diocese - to parachute in a new team without reference to the PCC or wider congregation and to change what had first attracted them.

ISTM that this last is the real problem with plants: it says to an existing congregation that they aren't "church". Furthermore, by ignoring an existing congregation, however small, and imposing on them patterns of worship they don't like or want, it tells them that their devotion is worthless and their views don't matter: how can that be called "mission".

One of the latest boasts by HTB in Heigham is that they have reinvigorated the local pub - but is it really the job of the CofE to be livening up a pub? And is that meant to make-up for the hurt and damage caused by ditching services, making it impossible for faithful people to receive communion, etc, etc, etc?

Another plant, the Harbour Church in Portsmouth, is even stranger. There is no mention anywhere of communion and an enquiry about when a eucharist or communion service could be found was greeted with "we're not that kind of church". The website is heavy on Alpha, which they advertise with a fetching photograph of Bear Grylls.

In London, St David's Westbourne Road is now part of "Hope Church Islington" and a church that had an Anglo-Catholic tradition now has one communion a month, tacked onto the end of its "worship" and conducted to the sound of a lot of the "worship" congregation consuming coffee and cake.

A London friend has noticed that the congregation at places like All Saints, Margaret Street can tell you reliably about where HTB plants have been started by noting where new members of their congregation come from.

Above all, am I being too cynical to wonder how many of the new congregation at plant churches will still be there when the plant team are no longer around to staff things like the free holiday play schemes, etc?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
To be fair, I've heard of an Anglo-Catholic priest who has pretty much been left alone by the HTB incomers and who has actually had more people come to his style of service since they got involved - they support and tolerate him and get on and do their happy-clappy stuff and munching cakes at other times.

I suspect this is rare, but it shows it can be done.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
To be fair, I've heard of an Anglo-Catholic priest who has pretty much been left alone by the HTB incomers and who has actually had more people come to his style of service since they got involved - they support and tolerate him and get on and do their happy-clappy stuff and munching cakes at other times.

I suspect this is rare, but it shows it can be done.
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Regarding Evangelical incomers, this study may prove to be of interest (if you don't won't to read it all, look at the sections towards the end entitled "Parish life in a working-class locality" and "An evangelical sea-change"). Unfortunately the last few lines seem to be unavailable.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Thanks, BT - most interesting. A salutary tale, indeed.

I think what I envision for Our Place is not so much an HTB-style 'evangelical takeover' (or 'makeover'?) as an infusion of new blood to reinvigorate our existing small, but committed, and rather weary, core congregation. For instance, two or three new young families (perhaps transferring themselves from a neighbouring evangelical church) could help us revive our children's work on Sundays and/or our monthly 'Crafty Church' (which means a lot of work for already hard-pressed folk). Young families are a major demographic in our parish. We could also do with some more servers and singers to enhance further our Sunday Eucharist (bells and smells, but not OTT...), as we are the only local church offering 'high church' or 'Anglo-Catholic' services. And, before someone says that that sort of thing is no longer wanted, I would point to the continuing growth of our Cell of Our Lady of Walsingham.

We are conscious of our well-worn church hall (it's the original mission church, somewhat altered over the years) being a community resource, and are presently refurbishing the kitchen to modern standards to help with this. The Hall is used daily by a pre-school Nursery, and is often booked on Saturday or Sunday afternoons for children's parties. I believe we have a Polish dance class starting on a weekday evening soon, as well...

Perhaps YSWIM. No need for a radical change of direction (if folk really, really want a charismatic-evo church, we simply refer them to Next Door Place!), but just some extra 'oomph'to help us do better what we are already doing as our local parish church.

A new priest-in-charge would help, too, so if you're looking for a challenge...

IJ
 

---

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
ISTM that this last is the real problem with plants: it says to an existing congregation that they aren't "church". Furthermore, by ignoring an existing congregation, however small, and imposing on them patterns of worship they don't like or want, it tells them that their devotion is worthless and their views don't matter: how can that be called "mission".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
To be fair, I've heard of an Anglo-Catholic priest who has pretty much been left alone by the HTB incomers and who has actually had more people come to his style of service since they got involved - they support and tolerate him and get on and do their happy-clappy stuff and munching cakes at other times.

I suspect this is rare, but it shows it can be done.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Regarding Evangelical incomers, this study may prove to be of interest (if you don't won't to read it all, look at the sections towards the end entitled "Parish life in a working-class locality" and "An evangelical sea-change"). Unfortunately the last few lines seem to be unavailable.

---

quote:

---

What ever the motives of the leadership it is clear that local people had their own expectations of what their church should be. In this case study, the innate conservatism of the congregation coupled with a strong identity forged over a long period of time frustrated clergy attempts to bring innovation into the life of the church. In the same way, this strong sense of identity, solidaristic but inclusive and quintessentially Anglican held the congregation together during a difficult period and contributed to the subsequent return of local people to the congregation.

Carr et al. (1992) suggest that 'ownership' is not a question of ideology, but a matter of the heart, informed by history and tradition and, above all, a sense of belonging. Traditionally, the style of Anglican ministry is 'interpretative'; that is, it should 'seek to interpret peoples experiences of life in relationship to God' as realised within the parochial context (Carr et al. 1992, pp16-17). In a highly secularised environment where clergy vocations are falling and new ordinands are increasingly also evangelical, this model of parochial ministry is being challenged by very different ministerial models. While these understandings are perfectly appropriate within certain contexts, traditionally, parish ministry is necessarily predicated upon a degree of openness towards the expectations of the congregations and a recognition that it remains for many people in the surrounding population 'an institution towards which they look' (Carr et al. 1992 pp 50-51). This case study graphically illustrates the negative consequences for one traditional parish when this vision was lost.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Thanks, BT - most interesting. A salutary tale, indeed.

I think what I envision for Our Place is not so much an HTB-style 'evangelical takeover' (or 'makeover'?) as an infusion of new blood to reinvigorate our existing small, but committed, and rather weary, core congregation. For instance, two or three new young families (perhaps transferring themselves from a neighbouring evangelical church) could help us revive our children's work on Sundays and/or our monthly 'Crafty Church' (which means a lot of work for already hard-pressed folk). Young families are a major demographic in our parish. We could also do with some more servers and singers to enhance further our Sunday Eucharist (bells and smells, but not OTT...), as we are the only local church offering 'high church' or 'Anglo-Catholic' services. And, before someone says that that sort of thing is no longer wanted, I would point to the continuing growth of our Cell of Our Lady of Walsingham.

We are conscious of our well-worn church hall (it's the original mission church, somewhat altered over the years) being a community resource, and are presently refurbishing the kitchen to modern standards to help with this. The Hall is used daily by a pre-school Nursery, and is often booked on Saturday or Sunday afternoons for children's parties. I believe we have a Polish dance class starting on a weekday evening soon, as well...

Perhaps YSWIM. No need for a radical change of direction (if folk really, really want a charismatic-evo church, we simply refer them to Next Door Place!), but just some extra 'oomph'to help us do better what we are already doing as our local parish church.

A new priest-in-charge would help, too, so if you're looking for a challenge...

IJ

---

Is there such a thing as Anglo-Catholic Church planting? If not, why not?
Good luck with the Pole Dancing sessions, by the way...

 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Thanks, Albertus - I should have spotted that!



IJ
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
And you wondered why you were getting all those visitors- who left looking disappointed...
 

---

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
To be fair, I've heard of an Anglo-Catholic priest who has pretty much been left alone by the HTB incomers and who has actually had more people come to his style of service since they got involved - they support and tolerate him and get on and do their happy-clappy stuff and munching cakes at other times.

I suspect this is rare, but it shows it can be done.

---

The report Love, Sweat and Tears: Church planting in East London by Tim Thorlby suggests this happens but there are also horror stories. We aee about to be in vacancy - if HTB want to come here then I hope our churchwardens will exercise their right of veto.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
And you wondered why you were getting all those visitors- who left looking disappointed...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
To be fair, I've heard of an Anglo-Catholic priest who has pretty much been left alone by the HTB incomers and who has actually had more people come to his style of service since they got involved - they support and tolerate him and get on and do their happy-clappy stuff and munching cakes at other times.

I suspect this is rare, but it shows it can be done.

---

The report Love, Sweat and Tears: Church planting in East London by Tim Thorlby suggests this happens but there are also horror stories. We aee about to be in vacancy - if HTB want to come here then I hope our churchwardens will exercise their right of veto.

---

I rather think that they are already on their way to a church near you, albeit closer to the University, naturally.

---

I know for a fact that HTB has been approached by Bishop Mike Hill to look at planting a church in Bristol in the Clifton Area to compete with Woodlands Church.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
But Christ Church is there already.

[ 21. August 2017, 13:15: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Sadly, I don't think any tradition, apart, perhaps, from the Roman Catholics (at least here in the West) are exempt from church-planting on someone else's toes.

I've known Baptist church-plants open relatively close to existing Baptist congregations, for instance. The 'restorationist' new churches would regularly plant new churches in one another's patch, with the excuse that 'there was always room for one more ...'

Now it seems the Anglicans are doing the same.

The overlapping jurisdictions within the Orthodox 'diaspora' means that the same thing happens there too - although this is often for linguistic reasons but even so ...

In the Middle East, of course, there are a gazillion competing forms of Catholic - Melkites, Maronites, Greek Catholics, Armenian Catholics, etc etc mirroring the same chaos for the 'Latins' as the jurisdictional messiness in the West does for the Orthodox ... although they're having a few controversies on their home-turf too with Moscow opening a church on Cyprus, for instance ...

So we're all as bad as one another in that respect.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
I have to conclude from what I read and hear that HTB is becoming more or less a Church in the Church of England.A very dangerous phenomenon.
I am waiting to hear a critical reaction from sound and traditional bishops.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've known Baptist church-plants open relatively close to existing Baptist congregations, for instance. The 'restorationist' new churches would regularly plant new churches in one another's patch, with the excuse that 'there was always room for one more ...'

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've known Baptist church-plants open relatively close to existing Baptist congregations, for instance. The 'restorationist' new churches would regularly plant new churches in one another's patch, with the excuse that 'there was always room for one more ...'

---

All true (sadly) - but these churches don't have parishes and dioceses, the Anglicans do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes; but I was thinking of Christ Church, Clifton, which is a large charismatic-evangelical Anglican church. I see it's linked to the New Wine Network: could it be that the Bishop wants to promote the HTB network instead?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roman Cataholic:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
To be fair, I've heard of an Anglo-Catholic priest who has pretty much been left alone by the HTB incomers and who has actually had more people come to his style of service since they got involved - they support and tolerate him and get on and do their happy-clappy stuff and munching cakes at other times.

I suspect this is rare, but it shows it can be done.

---

The report Love, Sweat and Tears: Church planting in East London by Tim Thorlby suggests this happens but there are also horror stories. We aee about to be in vacancy - if HTB want to come here then I hope our churchwardens will exercise their right of veto.

---

I rather think that they are already on their way to a church near you, albeit closer to the University, naturally.

---

I know for a fact that HTB has been approached by Bishop Mike Hill to look at planting a church in Bristol in the Clifton Area to compete with Woodlands Church.

---

I wonder how you 'know'.

Mike is due to retire in 3 weeks' time.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Surely, if the C of E in its wisdom (?) wants to 'compete' with Woodlands Church (which I assume is independent, and not part of the C of E), Christ Church, Clifton, is the place to use?

I note what leo has said, but Christ Church seems to be a lively place still, with a vision for renewing and improving the church building.



@Jengie jon - there are 'Independent Anglican' churches elsewhere, including (would you believe it?) Douglas, Isle of Man, which church appears to be led by a disaffected former Anglican priest. Perhaps the one in Sheffield is some form of similar breakaway?

IJ
 

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Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes; but I was thinking of Christ Church, Clifton, which is a large charismatic-evangelical Anglican church. I see it's linked to the New Wine Network: could it be that the Bishop wants to promote the HTB network instead?

---

Well, they have lost so many members that they can't pay their quota/parish share.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roman Cataholic:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
To be fair, I've heard of an Anglo-Catholic priest who has pretty much been left alone by the HTB incomers and who has actually had more people come to his style of service since they got involved - they support and tolerate him and get on and do their happy-clappy stuff and munching cakes at other times.

I suspect this is rare, but it shows it can be done.

---

The report Love, Sweat and Tears: Church planting in East London by Tim Thorlby suggests this happens but there are also horror stories. We aee about to be in vacancy - if HTB want to come here then I hope our churchwardens will exercise their right of veto.

---

I rather think that they are already on their way to a church near you, albeit closer to the University, naturally.

---

I know for a fact that HTB has been approached by Bishop Mike Hill to look at planting a church in Bristol in the Clifton Area to compete with Woodlands Church.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
there are 'Independent Anglican' churches elsewhere, including (would you believe it?) Douglas, Isle of Man, which church appears to be led by a disaffected former Anglican priest ...

---

You mean there's hope for me yet?
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Well...

@Baptist Trainfan - yes, it's not unreasonable for a PCC to restrict the use of its buildings, and to change hiring arrangements, if they deem such changes necessary to forward the mission of the parish as they see it. It's also not unreasonable for the HTB folk at St. Sepulchre's to be taken at their word on the subject.

Time will tell, and, given the previous lack of a Sunday congregation, one wishes them well. After all, other City churches are being used on Sundays by different denominations.

IJ
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
What's so terrible, Baptist Trainfan is that St Sepulchre's isn't just any old church that has occasional music concerts, but it had almost become a concert venue that happened also to be a church.

So, to that extent what the HTB people are doing is probably correcting an imbalance.

Rightly or wrongly, I suspect the various individuals and music groups who use it came to regard it as 'theirs'.

As with all these things, I suspect there are two sides to it. The HTB lot may not have grasped the sensitivities on the one hand whilst the music buffs may not have shown much sensitivity to the setting as a place of worship rather than a concert venue.
 

---

Posted by Viola (# 20) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Would anyone care to comment on my post above (the one about the OP)?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What's so terrible, Baptist Trainfan is that St Sepulchre's isn't just any old church that has occasional music concerts, but it had almost become a concert venue that happened also to be a church.

So, to that extent what the HTB people are doing is probably correcting an imbalance.

Rightly or wrongly, I suspect the various individuals and music groups who use it came to regard it as 'theirs'.

As with all these things, I suspect there are two sides to it. The HTB lot may not have grasped the sensitivities on the one hand whilst the music buffs may not have shown much sensitivity to the setting as a place of worship rather than a concert venue.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I know that part of London well and it almost empties at weekends. I've walked around that area on a Sunday and been surprised how few people were around.

...

I doubt very much that many of the HTB incomers live on the doorstep or within the parish.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
With a bit of imagination I can't see why it can't function as both a renowned concert venue and a place if worship.

---

quote:

---

For instance, there's a great example in Herefordshire of an historic parish church that has been kept open by having the village Post Office incorporated into the building. Everyone benefits. The Post Office stays open, there's a community space for local groups to use and there's still a 'sanctuary' for worship.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
Rev. David Ingall is listed as Priest-in-Charge in the handbook ...

He is present in the 2015 handbook as well. I don't have any earlier version available. But this does mean that the plant is at least two and a half years old. So, any thoughts that "the HTB crowd arrive and immediately push out the musicians" should be banished.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
I don't know where their money comes from.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spike:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes; but I was thinking of Christ Church, Clifton, which is a large charismatic-evangelical Anglican church. I see it's linked to the New Wine Network: could it be that the Bishop wants to promote the HTB network instead?

---

Well, they have lost so many members that they can't pay their quota/parish share.

---

Can't or won't?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roman Cataholic:
I know for a fact that HTB has been approached by Bishop Mike Hill to look at planting a church in Bristol in the Clifton Area to compete with Woodlands Church.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roman Cataholic:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
To be fair, I've heard of an Anglo-Catholic priest who has pretty much been left alone by the HTB incomers and who has actually had more people come to his style of service since they got involved - they support and tolerate him and get on and do their happy-clappy stuff and munching cakes at other times.

I suspect this is rare, but it shows it can be done.

---

The report Love, Sweat and Tears: Church planting in East London by Tim Thorlby suggests this happens but there are also horror stories. We aee about to be in vacancy - if HTB want to come here then I hope our churchwardens will exercise their right of veto.

---

I rather think that they are already on their way to a church near you, albeit closer to the University, naturally.

---

I know for a fact that HTB has been approached by Bishop Mike Hill to look at planting a church in Bristol in the Clifton Area to compete with Woodlands Church.

---

Not Clifton. Elsewhere

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
We're not allowed to do 'junior hosting' but methinks you've been here before and are trying to cause trouble again.

If you are right, then the archdeacon and area dean are liars.

If not, then you are.

This diocese has open and transparent governance. The only church planting agreed upon so far is that done by Christ Church, not HTB.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sipech:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
I don't know where their money comes from.

---

As they are a registered charity, their accounts are filed with, and publicly available from, the Charity Commission. Their latest accounts, for the year ended 31 December 2016, shows that of their total income of £329k, £98k came from 'other trading activities'. £58k came from the hire of building, while the other £40k came from a flat rental.

Most of the rest came from donations and gifts, though the accounts don't state if anything came from elsewhere within the CofE, though it's noticeable that £67k came from trustees and related parties (note 3). In spite of this, note 28.3 states that there were no related party transactions.

So one thing we can be sure of is that their accounts prep and audit is shoddy, as it contains a contradiction which is material by nature.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Interesting note in those earlier accounts: "We are beginning to explore ways of building on the strong relationships we have with many hirers to draw members of our wider community into the life of the church more generally".

---

It does rather point to a number of organisations sharing the use of the building.

Whilst I am not an HTB fan, although I share their churchmanship, I can see that they would be keen to run things in their own way. That may or may not accommodate a group of classical musicians to whom the sacred nature of the building and perhaps even some of the music, is secondary to the art of the music itself.

HTB wouldn't have a non believer leading their worship: why then would they be over happy with a non believers (or those actively opposed to church) running a high profile event in their building? There's the potential for all sorts of mixed messages.
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
One of the things that the HTB plant at St Sepulchre's is doing is being very obstructive about memorial services for dead musicians.

In the case of prominent musicians although they may live in one parish, they have a circle of friends, aquaintances and admirers from far and wide: a memorial service at a place within reasonable reach for all is therefore a good thing. However, it would seem that recent attempts to arrange for such things have met with a less than welcoming attitude.

As for suggestions above that the PCC must have views, this assumes that 'plant' parishes run on the same lines as other CofE parishes, but that isn't the case. What often happens is that an EGM is called and a new PCC is elected, stuffed full of people from the 'plant' - that is if those on the PCC at the time of planting haven't already resigned and been replaced by those prepared to put up with the plant.

And, as has been noted above, the actions of bishops in inviting in 'plants' can be questionable, to say the least.But this is what the new 'mission-shaped' CofE is all about, eh?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
There speaks the Puritan ...



The point is, nobody seems to have had an issue with classical concerts being held at St Sepulchre's in the past. I doubt if the HTB types would have that much of a problem with it either unless it happened to cause practical difficulties in terms of the use of the space.

It so happens that the only concert I've attended at St Sepulchre's was a performance of Rachmaninov's setting of the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom.

Of course, such a performance takes the music completely out of context - it wasn't in the setting of an actual Orthodox Liturgy. It was a performance not a eucharistic service.

One could lay the same charge at performances of Bach's cantatas or works by Byrd or Tallis.

These are performances of 'sacred music' but not actual acts of worship per se. Of course, nobody would object to the use of this music in an actual worship context, but even there some difficulties might arise.

I've teased ExclamationMark on Puritanism, but it is certainly an issue and not one confined to HTB-style churchmanship.

I've known Orthodox folk bemoan the hiring of professional singers who aren't necessarily Christians let alone Orthodox to form the choir in some parishes. In one instance I've heard of a Welsh choir who were called in to sing with the Greek words set out phonetically for them to follow ...



But in the case of St Sepulchre's, I'd have thought it wasn't beyond the wit of man to come up with some kind of solution that would satisfy all parties involved ... but people being people ... that's easier said than done.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Interesting note in those earlier accounts: "We are beginning to explore ways of building on the strong relationships we have with many hirers to draw members of our wider community into the life of the church more generally".

---

It does rather point to a number of organisations sharing the use of the building.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Interesting note in those earlier accounts: "We are beginning to explore ways of building on the strong relationships we have with many hirers to draw members of our wider community into the life of the church more generally".

---

It does rather point to a number of organisations sharing the use of the building.

---

Yes - so what led to the apparent change of policy between 2016 and 2017?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But in the case of St Sepulchre's, I'd have thought it wasn't beyond the wit of man to come up with some kind of solution that would satisfy all parties involved ... but people being people ... that's easier said than done.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
[It's made worse in this case by history and by the outside funding of certain activities at the church which may or may not be compatible with the essential aims of the Christian church.

---

quote:

---

Whilst I am not an HTB fan, although I share their churchmanship, I can see that they would be keen to run things in their own way. That may or may not accommodate a group of classical musicians to whom the sacred nature of the building and perhaps even some of the music, is secondary to the art of the music itself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Exclamation Mark

quote:

---

Whilst I am not an HTB fan, although I share their churchmanship, I can see that they would be keen to run things in their own way. That may or may not accommodate a group of classical musicians to whom the sacred nature of the building and perhaps even some of the music, is secondary to the art of the music itself.

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How very dare you!

No musicians - singly or as a group - are trying to "run" things at St Sepulchre's: all they are seeking to do is (1) have memorial services for colleagues who have spent their lives using their God-given ability to not only entertain and inspire but, frequently, interpret and enhance the scriptures and sacred texts ad maiorem Dei gloriam (to the greater glory of God); and (2) give performances of works either settings of such sacred texts or interpreting events from old and new testaments.

I think you'll find that the sacred nature of the music is very well understood and felt by those performing it. I can also assure you that they are also keenly aware of the "sacred nature of the building" - in fact one of the complaints levelled at plants is that they frequently move into a church and set about a re-ordering with scant regard to the "nature of the building", disposing of furnishings such as traditional lecterns and altars without a care. And their wanton disposal of hymnals, psalters and other items of religious music (up to and including organs) is well documented.

It would seem you don't see there is anything to be celebrated about the musicians' art as being inspired by God? So you won't be singing Craftsman's art and music's measure for thy pleasure all combine any time soon (it comes from the well-known hymn 'Angel voices').

A pity that those of a so-called 'purist' bent seem unaware of the thoughts of Saint Augustine on the matter of music.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
It strikes me that this all may have a lot to do with (secular) musicians saying, "This is our church" and the PCC etc. saying, "Actually, it's ours!";

---

I tend to think it's a good thing if otherwise non-church goers feel a big emotional investment in a church building and I disagree with the finding expressed somewhere earlier (sorry - I'm bad at links) that those attending secular concerts in a church don't feel the love and presence of God. I went to concerts in churches through my childhood while being brought up atheist and my experience of those sacred spaces and music in them was probably part of what brought me to faith.

Surely anyone wanting to come through church doors to sit quietly and moderately reverently (during music or whatever) during which time they might look at the stained glass windows and feel some kind of spirituality is kind of a good thing?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Yeah, I get that ...

However, I do wonder whether the Anglo-Catholic objection to the joint youth services you mention wasn't so much that they were 'charismatic' - some Anglo-Catholics are charismatic too, you know - but rather some pastoral concerns about the degree of manipulation and suggestibility involved in some of these types of service ...

So it might not simply be distaste at the style and churchmanship but a more pastoral and theological concern about the content and delivery ...

Incidentally, I noticed that my daughters were very sceptical of anything charismatic and full-on evangelical during their teenage years - and I don't think that was simply because their cynical old dad was moving away from all of that ...

They appeared to be able to 'see through it' in a more street-wise kind of way than I would have done when I was young and impressionable.

They went on a couple of church youth weekends away where emotional appeals and charismatic elements were introduced and they found it both cringe-worthy and unconvincing ...

'And it's like ... and it's like ... God is so awesome? Yeah? I mean ... it's like ... it's like this passage from the Bible? Isn't it just so amazing? yeah?'

Need I go on?



Don't get me wrong, I'm not tarring all evangelicals and charismatics with the same brush but there is a kind of Puritanical slash-and-burn thing going on in contemporary Anglican evangelical charismaticdom which I find very off-putting.

Rather than seeking to 'renew' or integrate some of the traditional stuff with their own particular expression or adapting it to adopt it, as it were - as Anglican charismatics tended to do in the past - they are chucking it all out and ending up with a mess of pottage that both lacks the gravitas of their own Anglican tradition on the one hand and lacks the authenticity of the older non-conformist traditions on the other.

For my money it ends up out of kilter on all counts.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
pete173 said earlier:

Just to say that there are some conversations going on wrt the St Sepulchre's issues

A salutary reminder that TPTB are aware, and that perhaps we don't indeed have the full story.

IJ
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Indeed.
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Rather than seeking to 'renew' or integrate some of the traditional stuff with their own particular expression or adapting it to adopt it, as it were - as Anglican charismatics tended to do in the past - they are chucking it all out and ending up with a mess of pottage.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yeah, I get that ...

However, I do wonder whether the Anglo-Catholic objection to the joint youth services you mention wasn't so much that they were 'charismatic' - some Anglo-Catholics are charismatic too, you know - but rather some pastoral concerns about the degree of manipulation and suggestibility involved in some of these types of service ...

So it might not simply be distaste at the style and churchmanship but a more pastoral and theological concern about the content and delivery ...

Incidentally, I noticed that my daughters were very sceptical of anything charismatic and full-on evangelical during their teenage years - and I don't think that was simply because their cynical old dad was moving away from all of that ...

They appeared to be able to 'see through it' in a more street-wise kind of way than I would have done when I was young and impressionable.

They went on a couple of church youth weekends away where emotional appeals and charismatic elements were introduced and they found it both cringe-worthy and unconvincing ...

'And it's like ... and it's like ... God is so awesome? Yeah? I mean ... it's like ... it's like this passage from the Bible? Isn't it just so amazing? yeah?'

Need I go on?



Don't get me wrong, I'm not tarring all evangelicals and charismatics with the same brush but there is a kind of Puritanical slash-and-burn thing going on in contemporary Anglican evangelical charismaticdom which I find very off-putting.

Rather than seeking to 'renew' or integrate some of the traditional stuff with their own particular expression or adapting it to adopt it, as it were - as Anglican charismatics tended to do in the past - they are chucking it all out and ending up with a mess of pottage that both lacks the gravitas of their own Anglican tradition on the one hand and lacks the authenticity of the older non-conformist traditions on the other.

For my money it ends up out of kilter on all counts.

---

quote:

---

Another plant, the Harbour Church in Portsmouth, is even stranger. There is no mention anywhere of communion and an enquiry about when a eucharist or communion service could be found was greeted with "we're not that kind of church". The website is heavy on Alpha, which they advertise with a fetching photograph of Bear Grylls.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:

We don't know how much parish life was left in the church before it linked up with HTB, but I'd suspect its lamp was flickering pretty feebly. Otherwise, HTB would not either have been called in or have spotted it as a good spot for an initiative.

If that assumption is correct, then we can say, that however convenient St Sepulchres might have been for the London musical establishment, as a church it no longer worked. So objectively one can hardly complain if the diocese, the area dean or the PCC decided that something needed to change drastically. If the downside of that is that eventually the relationship between the church and the musical establishment has to take second place to the church's belief as to what its own mission should be, then one has to accept that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:
It would be useful to know a bit more about the facts. All the same I think I'm closer to Baptist Trainfan and Exclamation Mark than to L'Organist and Viola on this.

We have concerts etc here and encourage them, but there's all the difference in the world between doing something because it fits your strategy and where you think you want to go, and doing something because your church has ended up with a situation where a very large tail has been wagging what has become rather a small and enervated dog, and where it feels as though the tail thinks it is entitled to have the dog that happens to suit it.

We don't know how much parish life was left in the church before it linked up with HTB, but I'd suspect its lamp was flickering pretty feebly. Otherwise, HTB would not either have been called in or have spotted it as a good spot for an initiative.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Could you elucidate that last point, it sounds intriguing!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've yet to o see a great deal of evidence that these things are channeling people into existing churches, they mostly seem to attract existing Christians who think they're being cool, trendy and radical.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Captain Smith:
The church was financially viable for a number of years prior to the HTB plant in 2013, not least because of venue hire which was mainly for rehearsals and concerts thereby fulfilling its mission to musicians. The diocese was therefore sufficiently confident to grant funds to reorder the east end, replace the heating system and provide humane toilet facilities amongst other things.

By 2013 the makeup of the PCC strongly reflected the stakeholders in the parish: the parish clerk and lay chair were both bellringers and roughly half of the membership were musicians, mainly members of the church choir.

Rev Ingall wrote to the PCC after his licensing (which none of the PCC or congregation had been invited to attend) saying that he didn't see any incompatibility between his ministry and the existing activities, i.e. mainly concerts and rehearsals. While the recent letter to hirers is largely framed in terms of practical use of the building that's really a matter of the daytime use: the comparatively large office staff use part of the main body of the church for their work which is mainly to do with administering Alpha courses.

For over three years they've been able to coexist with professional ensembles rehearsing on weekdays but for some reason they no longer can. There are spaces in the church which could be utilised as office space but for some reason those spaces can't be reconfigured even though the income from retaining the hire business would pay for the work. As for evening hires, the last accounts deposited with the Charity Commission don't indicate plans to increase Alpha and/or other courses to the extent that they'd cut across the existing hire programme.

The sudden change in policy suggests the decision was made for something other than purely practical reasons. While the PCC and incumbent naturally have discretion to make such decisions they are only temporary custodians of the building and have a responsibility to be honest with their stakeholders who extend beyond the immediate worship community. I don't think their public statements to date have fulfilled that obligation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
Because it's in Zone 1, natch!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
Because it's in Zone 1, natch!

---

which is?????

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Yes, I thought it seemed odd that PCC and congregation weren't invited to the licensing. Might that be simply because it was taken as read that they all had a perfect right to be there, and therefore didn't require a formal invitation?

Speculation is, perhaps, and certainly in this case, pointless. And TPTB have intimated as much, albeit more obliquely.

IJ

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quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:

Unless the diocese of London is vastly different from everyone else, it's unusual these days for either a bishop or a patron to impose an incumbent without involving the PCC through nominated selectors. I've also never heard of a licensing in which the parish isn't closely involved.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
Because it's in Zone 1, natch!

---

which is?????

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spike:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:

Unless the diocese of London is vastly different from everyone else, it's unusual these days for either a bishop or a patron to impose an incumbent without involving the PCC through nominated selectors. I've also never heard of a licensing in which the parish isn't closely involved.

---

Yes, but HTB appear to almost see themselves as a completely separate denomination outside the normal rules and structures of the Church of England.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
My CofE years are some time ago. But is there a custom of a bishop's appointment being permitted when a parish fails to appoint? Though I would've thought a parish of this sort would have wide and wonderful field to choose from, and no chance of failure to appoint through the usual channels.

Failures to appoint mainly seem to happen in a 'hard-to-sell' parish - or somewhere with serious past or potential 'difficulties'. But I don't know how, if at all, this operates in the CofE.

---

quote:

---

And even with a bishop's appointment, doesn't the invitation to the licensing issue from 'The Pcc and Parish of Wherever it is', anyway? Or from whoever the church governing body is?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:
Captain Smith, that's interesting. Are you recounting this from personal knowledge or hearsay?

Unless the diocese of London is vastly different from everyone else, it's unusual these days for either a bishop or a patron to impose an incumbent without involving the PCC through nominated selectors. I've also never heard of a licensing in which the parish isn't closely involved.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Captain Smith:
The parish was in interregnum at the time of the plant but, as I stated earlier, financially viable. With the support of the diocese it was working on a proposal to further its mission to musicians with the involvement an honorary chaplain in view of the general lack of priests.

Out of the blue the Archdeacon wrote to the PCC a few days before the 2013 APCM to scrap that approach by introducing Rev Ingall who was at the time a spare curate at the HTB mothership, rather in need of a job. It was purely an imposition from the diocese: the patrons were not consulted and regardless of what feelings they might have had about HTB they weren't happy about the process.

The PCC conducted a constructive dialogue with Rev Ingall so they were content with him as a candidate, but were unhappy that process wasn't being followed and so challenged the diocese. This led to the diocese working around the PCC by licensing Rev Ingall in private: the PCC were not informed when the ceremony was happening and thus were denied the opportunity to attend.

The first the PCC knew about the appointment was an announcement on Twitter followed by a letter from the newly appointed Priest in Charge. The Bishop brushed the PCC's subsequent complaint about the diocese's actions with the breezy observation that 'no process is perfect'. It's looking very much as though that casual attitude has returned to bite the Church.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Had I been Rev. Ingall, I wouldn't have touched the job. But then I work in a tradition where congregational involvement is fundamental.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:


Looking at the accounts, the parish was viable but only with the restricted funding for the music ministry and with concert/other income. On giving alone the church budget didn't balance.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Just pulling in the rent, serving the community and keeping things chugging along

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Yes, that's Our Place - with the not unimportant addition of sacrificial giving from our (small) congregation, not all of whom are 'waged'. The same applies in many other small parishes, too, I guess.

BTW, perhaps 'celebrating the Sacraments' might be a better phrase than 'just chugging along'.

IJ

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

A strange decision given the nature of London church going and the presence of other HTB type churches nearby.

I must admit I'm feeling more sympathetic with the Rector now and less keen on those who made the decision to appoint. Not only have they seemingly taken steps to move the church in a certain way (and goodness only knows why the Bishop threw his lot in with it), they have abused process to accommodate it - if what Capt. Smith says is true.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
[QUOTE]You refer to 'those who made the decision to appoint' and the "bishop who threw his lot in with it". Surely the bishop must have been one of the "those"? HTB, being in the Kensington Area, has no particular leverage on the Archdeacon for the Two Cities Area.

It is not the case there are many other HTB type churches nearby. It so happens that I have recently done a small research project for which I needed to crudely classify parishes in the London Diocese. St Sepulchre's is the only "charismatic" (note quotes) parish in the City Deanery, and there are only three others in the whole of the Two Cities area. St George's Holborn, involved with the plant to St Sepulchre's, is, I think, the nearest church of that type to St Sepulchre's. It is over a mile away, and in the opposite direction to the City of London.

I imagine that the vision for the plant is to have a centre for Alpha readily accessible to those working in the City. Thus the issue with weekday use of the building.

The type of church which is spreading in the City is that of the Conservative Evangelicals. They have their mother ship of St Helen's Bishopsgate, of course.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:


I imagine that the vision for the plant is to have a centre for Alpha readily accessible to those working in the City. Thus the issue with weekday use of the building.

The type of church which is spreading in the City is that of the Conservative Evangelicals. They have their mother ship of St Helen's Bishopsgate, of course.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Helen-Eva:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:


I imagine that the vision for the plant is to have a centre for Alpha readily accessible to those working in the City. Thus the issue with weekday use of the building.

The type of church which is spreading in the City is that of the Conservative Evangelicals. They have their mother ship of St Helen's Bishopsgate, of course.

---

*tangent alert*

What is the difference between HTB and conservative evangelical at St Helen's Bishopsgate? I thought they were quite similar?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Hmmmm there seem to be quite a few strands to this story which are now unfolding (I'm assuming all we are hearing and reading is true).

Looking at the accounts, the parish was viable but only with the restricted funding for the music ministry and with concert/other income. On giving alone the church budget didn't balance - strange then that the powers that be (Archdeacon and/or Bishop) didn't play to the church's strength and history but sought to take things off in a very new direction which carried the danger of the explosion we're now seeing.

A strange decision given the nature of London church going and the presence of other HTB type churches nearby.

I must admit I'm feeling more sympathetic with the Rector now and less keen on those who made the decision to appoint. Not only have they seemingly taken steps to move the church in a certain way (and goodness only knows why the Bishop threw his lot in with it), they have abused process to accommodate it - if what Capt. Smith says is true.

Capt. Smith does seem to know an awful lot about what went/is going on .... can we distinguish, fact, interpretation of fact and fiction of fact here?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
@pete173, it's interesting to hear of a plant from St. Martin-in-the-Fields, a 'traditional', yet inclusive, Anglican church par excellence!

Is it at St. Stephen, Walbrook, by any chance?

IJ

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Roman Cataholic:

St Helens is Cessationist
HTB is Charismatic

Very very different styles of worship and theological approaches.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Far be it from me to question the judgement of such a notable Prince of the Church as + Richard Londin of blessed memory (and that is not intended as a sarcastic description), but why was diversity in the City Deanery considered to be worth pursuing? After all, pretty much nobody who worships at a City church lives round there, and if you're travelling in from Hammersmith or Hampstead or wherever, you might as well go straight to HTB or SMiF or St Helen's Bishopgate (which actually is in the City already) as to one of their City plants. Couldn't the energy and effort involved in the plants have been better used elsewhere?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
[Q/B]



This chimes in with Our Place's experience. We have in our parish some new housing developments (flats, mostly), many of whose inhabitants don't
actually live there. They work away from the town, mostly in London AFAIK, come back to sleep, and spend the weekends in the country cottage, Prague, or where-have-you....
[/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Well, I was being rather tongue-in-cheek!

The sort of folk I'm referring to use their flat in our parish as a weeknight dormitory, spending their working week in the City, and their weekends in their country cottage, or wherever.

This means that they have no time or opportunity to enter into the life of the town or parish in which their flat is situated, IYSWIM. They may, however, be active in their City church during the week, be it an HTB plant or another...

IJ

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Helen-Eva:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Just pulling in the rent, serving the community and keeping things chugging along

---

Sounds like the quintessence of Anglicanism to me tbh.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Cathscats:
I also had to google Cessationist

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Helen-Eva:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roman Cataholic:

St Helens is Cessationist
HTB is Charismatic

Very very different styles of worship and theological approaches.

---

I did not know that (and I had to Google Cessationist). I have learned something - thank you. I'm a chugging along celebrating the Sacraments kind of Anglican as is probably fairly apparent so I don't always get the nuance.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roman Cataholic:
It could be argued that Cessationist theology is anti-sacramental, for it denies the role of the Holy Spirit in the transformative nature and properties of the sacramental life.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

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Originally posted by Roman Cataholic:
It could be argued that Cessationist theology is anti-sacramental, for it denies the role of the Holy Spirit in the transformative nature and properties of the sacramental life.

---

I don't really understand what you're saying here, sorry.

But I suspect that many Christians of the St Helen's Bishopsgate variety would probably regard Communion as little, if anything, more than a "memorial", i.e. they'd be closer to the Baptists than the Catholics in their understanding.

---

Put it this way: Cessationists don't believe that the spiritual gifts of the Spirit are bestowed onto believers today, for they believe ceased after the apostolic age. If that were to be true, then there are no ontological changes occurring in the sacraments of Baptism and Ordination, or in the daily lives of Christian believers.
The sacraments are vehicles of change, in which the Holy Spirit becomes involved in the lives of the recipients.
HTB, being Charismatic and therefore open to the gifts of the Spirit, would have to be open to the idea that the Holy Spirit uses the Sacraments to change the lives of Christians.
St Helen's, being Cessationist would deny that God uses the Sacraments. The emphasis would have to be on the inward conscious change of a person who is formed by the Word of God instead.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
And yet both purport to be parts of the Church of England, which officially recognises two Sacraments (Baptism and the Lord's Supper), so one supposes that these are celebrated in some way at these places.

Using (of course) the same Anglican liturgies.


Or not.


IJ
 

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Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roman Cataholic:
Put it this way: Cessationists don't believe that the spiritual gifts of the Spirit are bestowed onto believers today, for they believe ceased after the apostolic age. If that were to be true, then there are no ontological changes occurring in the sacraments of Baptism and Ordination, or in the daily lives of Christian believers.
The sacraments are vehicles of change, in which the Holy Spirit becomes involved in the lives of the recipients...
St Helen's, being Cessationist would deny that God uses the Sacraments. The emphasis would have to be on the inward conscious change of a person who is formed by the Word of God instead.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
And yet both purport to be parts of the Church of England, which officially recognises two Sacraments (Baptism and the Lord's Supper), so one supposes that these are celebrated in some way at these places.

Using (of course) the same Anglican liturgies.


Or not.


IJ

---

I suspect that there are some churches at the other end of the candle who are equally likely to sail close to or over the line in regard to using those forms of service "authorised or allowed by canon".
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Indeed there are, and I make no excuse for them.

IJ
 

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Posted by Viola (# 20) on :
 
And there we are: Church Times article Caged football is OK, Mozart Requiem not so much.
 

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Posted by Cathscats (# 17827) on :
 
What a good article! And such a charitable challenge at the end of it.
But what struck me most was the picture of the interior, which I had never seen before. This is a building designed to invoke a sense of the numinous. Not all church buildings are designed for that purpose, some are really meeting halls, some are about the preaching and so on. This one is about the numinous, or so it seems to me, and that just from a picture. The spirituality of the building would be why it is a great space for its musical heritage.
But the idea of putting caged football into that space is horrendous. It would be practically difficult, I should think; but worse, the idea of it will nauseate those who have had experience of the holy in that space, and it will teach those who participate to be blind, deaf and insensitive to their surroundings. And that is an insensitivity which may well carry over into other aspects of life.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
The Sunday 'plant' congregation in 2013 was 60 people. The MW Report of 23 July 2017 counted about 30 people...as the Church Times article speculates, the Sunday congo is shrinking, not growing.

Maybe the plant has, in fact, not been successful, and maybe, just maybe, a mistake has been made (even Bishops and HTB are not infallible!).

(O, and BTW, 'caged football' sounds like some sort of punishment in Hell).

IJ
 

---

Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
I note that Roman Cataholic hasn't answered the question I put to him last week about who he knew the plans of the Bishop of bristol.

---

That really sounds like it ought to be some ghastly euphemism:

So comrade: what did YOU know about the plans of the Bishop of Bristol?

Nothing comrade, nothing I swear!

We shall see about that - bring the cage and the rats!

OK - I've lost it - but it's Friday.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Or even the RACK!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WJXHY2OXGE

Well, it is Friday....

IJ
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Remember: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! (Cue Sousa's "Liberty Bell").
 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
Well i think the comfy chair might well be among the tortures inflicted by the HTB inquisition. That and a smoothie bar.
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Perhaps that's because he wasn't privy to them, after all.

Least said, soonest mended, maybe?

IJ

---

Perhaps he is playing knockdown ginger. Making myschievous statements then running away.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Yes, and he's probably old enough to know better.



IJ
 

---

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 
The detail now emerging suggests that significant questions need to be asked of the Archdeacon and the Bishop of London. Knowing HTB's approach and track record, a great deal more care - and some cast iron guarantees about the future of the concerts - should have been exercised at the start.

It all seems strangely silent from that quarter as the HTB bashing is gaining traction.

I wonder what offers were made and assurances given to HTB at the start. The initiative did not come from them but from the Bishop. Equally, I wonder what was said to those who represent the classical music side of the church's ministry.

Perhaps this may serve as a salutary - and much needed lesson - of the care that needs to be taken when one church is "invited" to regenerate another. Perhaps it is better for the invitation to come from the church itself , who then go into the marriage with eyes wide open, rather than with any sniff of a shotgun wedding.

That approach has caused problems at St Sepulchres, as I am given to understand it is also doing in Central Plymouth.
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Anglican or Baptist?
 

---

Posted by pete173 (# 4622) on :
 
There's absolutely no lack of clarity about the terms on which the plant took place. The conversation that is now going on relates to the PCC's proposed policy change.

But we're not having those conversations in the public domain, which will only exacerbate the situation and provide further opportunity for false information to be circulated. I'm working to get a resolution on this when everyone is back in town.
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
Pete123, a difficult task, no doubt, ahead of you all. Sincerely, all the best wishes for a satisfactory outcome for all involved.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
posted by pete173

quote:

---

But we're not having those conversations in the public domain, which will only exacerbate the situation and provide further opportunity for false information to be circulated. I'm working to get a resolution on this when everyone is back in town.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by pete173

quote:

---

But we're not having those conversations in the public domain, which will only exacerbate the situation and provide further opportunity for false information to be circulated. I'm working to get a resolution on this when everyone is back in town.

---

Since you're the acting bishop surely its up to you which conversations are "in the public domain"?

---

Yup.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Cage-football?

They'll introduce cage-wrestling next.

I'm surprised it hasn't happened already ...

Meanwhile and for pete173 and everyone else who has to mediate and sort out what looks to be like a god-awful mess on both sides ...
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
I have yet to check it out but so far 2 friends have told me that an approach to St Sepulchre's to hold a memorial service for a deceased opera singer friend has met with a wall of resistance - even though said singer sang in the church in his student days and died a communicant member of the CofE.

Good luck pete173 - you have a mountain to climb.

[ 02. September 2017, 15:21: Message edited by: L'organist ]
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Well, we shall see. It may be that TPTB will acknowledge that mistakes have been made, but I do wonder just how one might 'uproot' an unsuccessful church 'plant'....

IJ
 

---

Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Meanwhile and for pete173 and everyone else who has to mediate and sort out what looks to be like a god-awful mess on both sides ...

---

quote:

---

I do wonder just how one might 'uproot' an unsuccessful church 'plant'....

---

quote:

---

I've been in too many churches where musicians (some with no or dubious Christian beliefs) rule the roost and Christian worshipers are left out in the cold, their decisions over-ruled often by a musician who may not even be a member of the church. That's not right. A church is a church: a place for the worship of God.

Don't get me wrong, I love music and as a musician myself, see its importance in all areas of life.

---

quote:

---

The ROH would soon complain if HTB hired it for an event or series of events and then refused to leave in order to allow the RO or RB to perform and have first options of the use of their own building!

---

quote:

---

So what's the fuss? A church should firstly be a place of worship - not a concert hall or practice studio.

---

quote:

---

“Lovers of classical music are, of course, a niche audience; but they are all, by definition, spiritual, even when they are not religious: people attentive to what a former missionary friend of mine calls “the thing that is true even if Christianity isn’t”.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:

FYI any proper church musician will be someone of faith who has studied the use of music in the liturgy, who understands the role of music within worship and who has at the forefront of their mind that any musical offering must be there to enrich or enhance the act of worship. All if these issues should be covered at interview.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
FYI any proper church musician will be someone of faith who has studied the use of music in the liturgy, who understands the role of music within worship and who has at the forefront of their mind that any musical offering must be there to enrich or enhance the act of worship. All if these issues should be covered at interview.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:


1. First, I'd ask how you know that the musicians have "no or dubious" beliefs: have you asked them?

2. FYI any proper church musician will be someone of faith who has studied the use of music in the liturgy, who understands the role of music within worship and who has at the forefront of their mind that any musical offering must be there to enrich or enhance the act of worship. All if these issues should be covered at interview.

3. A better analogy would be to say that a homeowner (St Sepulchre's) was approached and asked to give a home to a lodger (HTB): this they agreed to do on the basis that the lodger be aware of the rules of the house; the lodger then proceeded to act more and more as if they held the title to the house, until finally they went behind the back of the homeowner to the Land Registry, registered the house as their own and then promptly gave the homeowner notice to quit.

---

quote:

---

This is a high profile example but there are instances like this elsewhere which suggest an imposed agenda and churches where things are done to people, rather than for and/or with them.

---

A perfect, pared back summary of the problem.

Over to you, pete173
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Yes, as so often, ExclamationMark speaks sense.

Without revealing the location, I know of an instance where a senior cleric pushed forward a plan for a trendy café style Fresh Expressions church-plant in a setting where all the local clergy had advised that it was culturally inappropriate.

A bright-eyed, bushy tailed young vicar moved in with his family and they bought him a house. They bussed in equally bright-eyed and bushy-tailed young middle-class kids from nearby towns to participate in café style discussions in coffee shops that did not engage the locals on any way, shape or form.

The whole thing was a disaster. The incumbent was treated so shoddily - or shittily rather, by the powers that be that he left the CofE and joined another denomination where he is serving as a minister some hundreds of miles from where this particular car-crash took place.

The worst aspect in my view is that a veil of almost Stalinist silence has been drawn down across the whole thing. It's never mentioned. It's as if it never even happened. The senior cleric apparently changed the subject whenever it crops up.

The shocking thing about the whole sorry episode is that it's highly reminiscent of the sort of conspiracies of silence I saw during my 'restorationist' years ...

People were appointed to positions of locations that were clearly unsuitable and dropped like a ton of bricks when things didn't work out. All the 'prophecies' and rah-rah-rah were conveniently forgotten about and brushed under the carpet.

I'm saddened that the CofE seems to be following suit to some extent. It's a disturbing development.

Baptist churches have other issues but they are less likely to suffer from this sort of thing, other than in those places where they've jumped onto a managerial bandwagon in a way that is causing devastation right across the board.

If these kind of church-plant initiatives don't happen organically or naturally then there are always going to be problems.

To draw on a military analogy, because the Japanese had over-run Chinese fortifications with relative ease during an earlier conflict, they thought they could do the same at Port Arthur in 1904 despite the Russians having concrete bunkers bristling with Maxim guns. Not only that, they didn't learn from their mistakes and sent wave after wave of their infantry to untimely deaths.

I feel sorry for the Anglican bishops. They are trying to show enterprise and initiative, but as yet they haven't devised the right tactics for very different battlefield conditions, if I can use that analogy.
 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 

quote:

---

dreadful Waitrose lite approach

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
While I don't disagree, that sounds extremely disparaging of the huge number of churches whose music is provided by well-meaning and dedicated volunteers from the congregation who "do their best" (and sometimes that is very good) with the skills and abilities available to them.

---

And the other times we at least aim for the "make a joyful noise unto the Lord" standard.
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Precisely.
 

---

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:

quote:

---

This is a high profile example but there are instances like this elsewhere which suggest an imposed agenda and churches where things are done to people, rather than for and/or with them.

---

A perfect, pared back summary of the problem.

Over to you, pete173

---

quote:

---

Canon B 14 Of Holy Communion in parish churches
1. The Holy Communion shall be celebrated in every parish church at least on all Sundays and principal Feast Days, and on Ash Wednesday and Maundy Thursday. It shall be celebrated distinctly, reverently, and in an audible voice.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie jon:
In Nonconformity, you cannot even make such rules.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie jon:
BroJames

In Nonconformity, you cannot even make such rules. If you believe the CofE gives autonomy to local congregations and give that as an example, then I think you prove my point.

Jengie

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie jon:
In Nonconformity, you cannot even make such rules.

---

True of Baptist or URC. But what about in Methodism, or in the more autocratic of the "new" churches, though?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie jon:
In Nonconformity, you cannot even make such rules.

---

True of Baptist or URC. But what about in Methodism, or in the more autocratic of the "new" churches, though?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I would say that many of the 'new churches' are a lot less congregational than they appear. It depends on the 'stream' or 'connexion' to use an older term.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I would say that many of the 'new churches' are a lot less congregational than they appear. It depends on the 'stream' or 'connexion' to use an older term.

---

Yeah. I work with a variety of churches and the veneer is pretty slim in most cases.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stejjie:
One of the blessings we have at the church where I'm minister is that we have a large number of people who, though they don't come to Sunday services, consider us to be "their church". Maybe they go to a different church, maybe they don't go to any: t doesn't seem to matter. We're friends with them, we chat to them, listen to them, pray for them (and they support us in all sorts of wonderful ways).

Yes, it would be lovely if they came to us on a Sunday, I'm not going to deny that. But our relationship with them isn't based on that. And it strikes me that the worst thing you could do would be to destroy the good, loving relationships we have with them just because they're not formally members of our congregation.

---

quote:

---

From the words,written by L'organist,I have to conclude that HTB can hardly be considered an Anglican parish church.

---

quote:

---

It has become more or less an independent church,rather similar to an American Protestant Mega Church,with a lot of people and probably blessed with a lot of money.

---

quote:

---

Where is the Anglican worship and spirituality ?

---

quote:

---

What do these HTB people feel when they are attending services in their cathedral of St.Paul, Ludgate Hill ?

---

quote:

---

I remember the days in the sixties when I attended a couple of times the Parish communion,inspiring well attended,not very High but still very Anglican.

---

quote:

---

If informal worship,like HTB is the future of the Church of England,I am afraid that many traditional Anglicans will look for Rome or the Eastern Orthodox.

---

quote:

---

I am grateful that the current London Diocese,has still many thriving churches in the Anglican Catholic tradition.

---

quote:

---

Morning and Evening Prayer shall be said or sung in every parish church at least on all Sundays and other principal Feast Days, and also on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
<snip>I would think that a mere 50 years ago very many Church of England parishes would have had something like 8am Communion, 11am Mattins and 6.30pm Evensong as the standard fare.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
And on every day for which Collect, Epistle, and Gospel are provided in the BCP, I think, with a sermon. Cranmer intended Holy Communion to be the principal service, but it didn't work out that way, the English having been used to attendance, but not communicating, at Mass for several preceding centuries.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
And on every day for which Collect, Epistle, and Gospel are provided in the BCP, I think, with a sermon. Cranmer intended Holy Communion to be the principal service, but it didn't work out that way, the English having been used to attendance, but not communicating, at Mass for several preceding centuries.

---

This is an interesting comment. Do you have a reference for this?

My recollection from my childhood is that when attending a Communion service, it was always a struggle to find the pages for "The Order for the Administration of the Lord's Supper or Holy Communion", partly, I suppose, because they were not well-thumbed, but mainly because they were not near the beginning, unlike the pages for Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer. Maybe this was for 1662 , and the ordering of the services in 1549 was different.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Basilica:
I've always been told that Holy Communion is in the middle of the BCP as it's easier to keep the book open at the correct page in the middle of the book. Common Worship is the same, except no one ever actually use any of the CW books in an act of worship.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
they'd have been thanking God for having 'safely brought [them] to the beginning of this day' just before noon IJ

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Nothing on St. Sepulchre's website etc. to be sure. Just that they're having a night of prayer tonight: "We will be worshipping & praying from sunset Sept 22 to sunrise Sept 23 2017 at St. Sepulchre’s".

---

Are they celebrating the autumn equinox? Sounds kinda pagan...
 

---

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
There was meant to be a PCC meeting at St Sepulchre's on the 15th (I think) to be attended by Bishop Pete with the stated intentions of (a) finding out what was going on, and (b) sorting it out.

---

It's not uncommon for the result of that kind of meeting to be (c) we need another meeting.
 

---

Posted by pete173 (# 4622) on :
 
PCC meeting is this coming Sunday. Don't believe the gossip factory.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
The outcome of that meeting (if it is released into the public domain) will make interesting reading, so far as the subject of this thread is concerned.

ISTM that further comment and speculation are, in the meantime, unnecessary.

IJ
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
The silence isn't good.

And the new(ish) regime at St Sepulchre's missed a golden opportunity to display some goodwill: all they had to do was reinstate the (formerly) annual memorial service for Sir Henry Wood and all London orchestral musicians who have died during the year. This used to take place on the Sunday after the last night of the Proms but was stopped when the HTB people moved in.

It was a good service: the wreath which is placed on the bust of Henry Wood before the last concert starts was always taken to place by his memorial plaque in St Sepulchre's. It was a non-denominational service which used to get a very respectable crowd. Now held in another church but I know the promenaders would dearly love to get back into the church where Sir Henry is memorialised and his ashes are interred.

Again, over to you Pete.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Blimey, the PCC meeting was only yesterday!

Give the poor Secretary a chance to write up his/her notes...

IJ
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Surely the best Minutes are those written before the meeting takes place?
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Aha! It is as I suspected - Baptist Trainfan is (secretly) or has been (in the past) an Anglican!



IJ
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
As it happens, I was brought up in the CofE before I saw the light and joined the One True Church (at around the age of 18).

Surely though you ought to have conjectured as to whether I had ever been a minute-taker in the Civil Service - which I have not.

[ 25. September 2017, 13:12: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Well, I did wonder about the Civil Service (or perhaps local government), but forebore to be insulting! (And is there a reference to Yes, Minister somewhere? Sounds like a Bernardism...).

IJ
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Not consciously Sir Bernard, but this rings true: Sir Humphrey: "It is characteristic of all committee discussions and decisions that every member has a vivid recollection of them and that every member’s recollection of them differs violently from every other member’s recollection. Consequently, we accept the convention that the official decisions are those and only those which have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials, from which it emerges with an elegant inevitability that any decision which has been officially reached will have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials and any decision which is not recorded in the minutes has not been officially reached even if one or more members believe they can recollect it, so in this particular case, if the decision had been officially reached it would have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials, and it isn’t so it wasn’t". Sounds like Diocesan Synod, or Baptist Church Meetings.

[ 25. September 2017, 13:37: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 


Indeed it does! And I can just see the look of bewilderment on poor Jim Hacker's face....

IJ
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
The silence isn't good.

And the new(ish) regime at St Sepulchre's missed a golden opportunity to display some goodwill: all they had to do was reinstate the (formerly) annual memorial service for Sir Henry Wood and all London orchestral musicians who have died during the year. This used to take place on the Sunday after the last night of the Proms but was stopped when the HTB people moved in.

It was a good service: the wreath which is placed on the bust of Henry Wood before the last concert starts was always taken to place by his memorial plaque in St Sepulchre's. It was a non-denominational service which used to get a very respectable crowd. Now held in another church but I know the promenaders would dearly love to get back into the church where Sir Henry is memorialised and his ashes are interred.

Again, over to you Pete.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Hmm. Depends whether it's God who is being worshipped, or Sir Henry...

IJ

---

I went to that service one year - I don't remember Sir Henry getting much attention and it was more like those annual services that a lot of parishes do to remember all the people from the church who died that year. I went to remember a particular musician who mattered a lot to me and it was a lovely thing to have done. I'm so sorry to hear it's been stopped.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Fair comment, and point taken.

It may well be, and one can only hope and pray, that some positive 're-balancing' will take place at St. Sepulchre's as a result of current deliberations.

IJ
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Well they'd better get their act together quickly because the groups who're being pushed out are looking at the possibility of legal action of some sort...
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
...in which case the only people to benefit will be the lawyers.



IJ
 

---

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Well they'd better get their act together quickly because the groups who're being pushed out are looking at the possibility of legal action of some sort...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
To me, as an outsider reading the statements, it appears as if +Pete has (a) had a good go at the PCC for what they did...

---

quote:

---

I am grateful to the Rector and PCC of St Sepulchre for being willing to engage with me and other diocesan colleagues about their decision. In that engagement I have repeated and re-inforced the role the Church of England plays in the communities it serves. The Church of England is called to be a welcoming, inclusive, and engaging church. I have re-emphasised the importance of this to all those at St Sepulchre

---

I do not think it requires too much imagination to be able to guess the tone of the 'engagement' that lay behind the second and fourth sentences there. They suggest to me what I believe is called in the Civil Service a 'meeting without coffee' (if such a thing can be imagined in any - no-Adventist, anyway- church . )

[ 28. September 2017, 22:25: Message edited by: Albertus ]
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
They suggest to me what I believe is called in the Civil Service a 'meeting without coffee'

---

 

---

Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on :
 
Given their other plans this is sheer sanctimonious hypocrisy. They are a cult answerable to no one and nothing but their own ego.
 

---

Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Given their other plans this is sheer sanctimonious hypocrisy. They are a cult answerable to no one and nothing but their own ego.

---

quote:

---

Given their other plans this is sheer sanctimonious hypocrisy. They are a cult answerable to no one and nothing but their own ego.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
In addition, a parish is a charity, and the PCC members are the trustees, and so responsible for ensuring that the charity meets its charitable objectives. Is the provision of a venue for rehearsal or concerts (on a commercial basis) one of those objectives?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:

As an aside, if there haven't been regular Sunday services for 30 years, it's a bit difficult to conclude that St Sepulchre's mission to the musical community has been having much effect.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Helen-Eva:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
In addition, a parish is a charity, and the PCC members are the trustees, and so responsible for ensuring that the charity meets its charitable objectives. Is the provision of a venue for rehearsal or concerts (on a commercial basis) one of those objectives?

---

Based on what l'Organist says, I guess it is. Or at least being the Musician's church etc is an explicit objective of that particular church according to the diocese of London.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
How does this follow? I don't know St Sepulchre at all, but the City of London has a rather small resident population (less than 10,000), and a very much larger community of commuting workers (more than 300,000).

Those 300,000 people aren't there on Sundays.

The idea that one should only serve the 10,000 residents and not the 300,000 people who are there for long hours on weekdays is rather misguided to say the least.

So I conclude that the absence of Sunday service from a church in a community where 97% of the people aren't there on Sundays really doesn't tell you anything about the effectiveness or otherwise of the church's mission.

---

quote:

---

As an aside, if there haven't been regular Sunday services for 30 years, it's a bit difficult to conclude that St Sepulchre's mission to the musical community has been having much effect.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Given their other plans this is sheer sanctimonious hypocrisy. They are a cult answerable to no one and nothing but their own ego.

---

Just like so many others of different hues in the C of E. Parishes do have significant autonomy. In addition, a parish is a charity, and the PCC members are the trustees, and so responsible for ensuring that the charity meets its charitable objectives. Is the provision of a venue for rehearsal or concerts (on a commercial basis) one of those objectives?

---

The Trust Deeds (where they exist) will be so broad as to ensure that a wide range of things can be done but will not be required to be done. It's a matter of a number of options but little compulsion to take any particular one.

Sunday worship and Alpha Courses would, for example, fit perfectly. The church would then be said to be providing a Christian presence in the community. They don't have to provide a venue for concerts but given the history they would IMHO have a moral obligation to continue.

The one point I'm still unsure on, is what guarantees were given about the music when the plant started. A lot has been claimed but getting to the nub of it is vital.

The church seem to be wholly at fault. Who's to say, thought that there haven't been a few ill directed remarks about the theology of the new plant, allied to a presumption about church use from various groups not directly linked to the church, which may have hardened already setting attitudes.

It's unhelpful to drag the theology of the plant into this - a move which would make anyone over defensive.
 

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Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :
 
Trust deeds only need exist when the Charity needs to be registered. This does not apply to C of E churches.Yes, it does apply to all other churches.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :
 
C of E churches are increasingly required to become registered charities as their income reaches a certain threshold. I think some form of generic statement of trust has been agreed with the Charity Commission, but I'm not sure.

As far as St. Sepulchre is concerned, provided they don't breach Canon Law, or breach their duty as trustees, the PCC aren't really answerable to anyone, except the Annual Parochial Church Meeting. A Special Parochial Church Meeting can be 'forced' by one third of the lay members of the PCC, or an Extraordinary Meeting can be called for by one tenth of the Electoral Roll membership if the Archdeacon agrees. But in either case AFAICT they can only force a discussion and make recommendations to the PCC.

AFAIK, once a parish priest is appointed, the patron(s) have no power at all over her/his actions and can do nothing until the living becomes vacant.

Most of the apparent power of bishops etc. lies in influence and persuasion. The long term bruising effect of using the law in these situations, even when as with the Oxford Movement, the law was technically on the side of the hierarchy means that even where legal levers are available the powers that be are reluctant to face the uncertainty, negative publicity and cost of using them. Legal victories in this sort of situation tent to be Pyrrhic.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I notice that the Musicians' Chapel at St. Sepulchre's seems to have a life of its own:

http://www.musicianschapel.org.uk/

There appears to be a degree of independence from the rest of the church's activities, so hopefully this will continue (the May 2018 service is already planned and advertised).

Time will tell...

IJ
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
If a CofE parish is to be registered as a charity - and you're quite right that the form now is for each parish to do so on an individual basis - then they have to satisfy the Charity Commission that they fulfil certain aims or bring "public benefit".

If the Chancellor of the diocese of London did his homework and was on the ball, then one of the charitable aims of St Sepulchre's should clearly be to act as the national musicians' church: IMV it would be astonishing if this wasn't included when charitable status was sought and obtained.

Next time I'm in the City I'll make a point of going to St Sepulchre's: first because I need to sort out an entry in the Book of Remembrance; second to see if they've still got the rather fine altar frontal and matching communion rail kneelers which were given as a gift in memory of Sir Malcolm Sargent, conductor of the Proms for many years.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
The Charity Act (2006) withdrew the presumption that the "advancement of religion" is, in itself, to the public benefit.

However, as the group "Stewardship" point out in this helpful paper, "The new rules on demonstrating and reporting on public benefit are in some ways a wake up call to the church. A call to think carefully and objectively about the positive impact that we, as a community of Christians make to individuals and to society, from the perspective of the outside world. This is very much a positive thing – causing us to evaluate and re-evaluate what we are doing and achieving. It may even cause us to refocus and do things better!"
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
The Church has been registered as a Charity since January 2015. On the Charity Commission website its stated activities are "ST SEPULCHRE'S IS PART OF THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND. WE PROMOTE THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION, WITH A PARTICULAR FOCUS ON THE WORKPLACE AND MUSIC, AS THE NATIONAL MUSICIANS' CHURCH. WE PROVIDE REGULAR CHRISTIAN WORSHIP SERVICES, OPEN TO ALL; AND THE TEACHING OF CHRISTIANITY THROUGH SERMONS, COURSES AND SMALL GROUPS. WE ALSO PROVIDE A VENUE FOR THE STAGING OF CONCERTS AND OTHER EVENTS, SUCH AS LECTURE SERIES". This is bulked out by a reference to their Mission Action Plan which is appended to the annual accounts.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Well, as I said, time will tell. That all sounds fair enough to this outsider, but I expect those with axes to grind will still be accusing TPTB and the PCC of being, in effect, liars and poltroons...

IJ
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:
second to see if they've still got the rather fine altar frontal

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quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
The music list for the "summer term" (the most recent to be posted online) suggests that the usual "canticles" and "responses" are replaced by a Communion setting. So a "proper" choral Eucharist, I suspect.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
Though even this has been bypassed in the case of a church I know of. Not directly an HTB plant as far as I know, but a similar ethos: the (then) Bishop simply offered them the use of a redundant church and then gave it its own parish of which the boundary is the churchyard wall.

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quote:

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We are hoping to work with a range of musicians and groups as we put together an exciting programme of services, concerts and musical events for 2018. If you are part of a choir, orchestra or group who would like to perform here at St. Sepulchre’s as part of our programme, do please let us know! (office@stsepulchres)

Saturday Concert Series

Throughout 2018 we will be running a series of monthly Saturday evening concerts (including rehearsal time for the performers) in partnership with a variety of different external musical groups, and including high quality classical and choral music both ‘sacred’ and ‘secular’. The series will run on the third Saturday of every month, and we invite choirs and orchestras interested in performing one of these concerts to get in touch for more information.

‘Music in Worship’ series of concerts with reflections

A series of evening concerts on the first Monday of each month, starting on Monday 5th February, exploring the importance and beauty of music in worship. Each evening will be around 60-90 minutes long, roughly three quarters of which will be music, with reflections on the music and worship alongside them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:
... So, to replace a schedule that used to average 8 or more high-quality concerts/ lecture-recitals every month they propose 2 only, with restrictions on one of them.

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to what restrictions are you referring?

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quote:

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exploring the importance and beauty of music in worship. Each evening will be around 60-90 minutes long, roughly three quarters of which will be music, with reflections on the music and worship alongside them.

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quote:

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In addition to concerts the music list for the long-standing Tuesday evening choral service has now been published and continues as before.

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quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:
What they want is liturgical music, rather than just something with a sacred theme or subject: so settings of the Mass maybe, but not a cantata, so appealing to a pretty niche market. And the whole thing will be packaged with "worship" which is likely to further restrict its appeal - after all, not everyone who appreciates the beauty of, say, Dvorak's Mass in D is necessarily going to be prepared to sign up for 15-25 minutes of "worship" and "reflection". That is fact - a friend enquired and was told they wanted music for worship only, not music with a sacred theme. In other words, they're already rowing back on the "compromise" reached with the Acting Bishop of London, etc. ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Bishop's Finger

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to what restrictions are you referring?

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The "Music in Worship" slot on the first Monday of the month which will be (to quote the website)

quote:

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exploring the importance and beauty of music in worship. Each evening will be around 60-90 minutes long, roughly three quarters of which will be music, with reflections on the music and worship alongside them.

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What they want is liturgical music, rather than just something with a sacred theme or subject: so settings of the Mass maybe, but not a cantata, so appealing to a pretty niche market. And the whole thing will be packaged with "worship" which is likely to further restrict its appeal - after all, not everyone who appreciates the beauty of, say, Dvorak's Mass in D is necessarily going to be prepared to sign up for 15-25 minutes of "worship" and "reflection". That is fact - a friend enquired and was told they wanted music for worship only, not music with a sacred theme. In other words, they're already rowing back on the "compromise" reached with the Acting Bishop of London, etc.

posted by Liturgylover

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In addition to concerts the music list for the long-standing Tuesday evening choral service has now been published and continues as before.

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Not so. First, there is no Evensong after 5th December, just a carol service on the 12th December.

Second, the inclusion of Taize chant in a service of Choral Evensong is incredibly jarring, made more so by the fact that they don't necessarily relate to the readings: for example, on 5th December a chant looking forward to the Holy Spirit is coupled with readings from Isaiah (sins purged through the blood of the Messiah) and Matthew (Palm Sunday). Of course, they're using the wrong lectionary readings but the "reflective chant" wouldn't fit the correct readings either.

I also don't quite understand why if the service is on a Tuesday they're using the lectionary readings for the second Sunday service - but then perhaps the whole idea of a lectionary schema of readings is foreign to Mr Ingall and his merry flock?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Tuesday 12th is, of course, not quite the last service before Christmas, unless they intend to cancel the 'third Tuesday' Eucharist this year, seeing as it's so close to Christmas itself.

Maybe the Director and Choir are taking a break?

IJ

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Sorry, what I meant was that that pattern is a long established one in the church, and indeed elsewhere in the City churches most of whom hold their carol service in that week rather than the following week.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Yes, ISWYM. I guess many of the regulars at City churches will be 'Away' for the Christmas/New Year break.

IJ
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
There is no Choral Eucharist down for 19th December. The office at SS thinks choral services will resume on 16th January. (The same office is also of the opinion that where the first Monday of a month is a bank holiday the "Music in Worship" concert won't take place so nothing in May and, in 2018 at least, nothing in April either.)
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
The first Monday in April, 2018, is Easter Monday, so there's hardly likely to be a huge attendance at any church, be it in the City or elsewhere!

The same surely goes for the May Bank Holiday, I would think.



IJ
 

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Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The first Monday in April, 2018, is Easter Monday, so there's hardly likely to be a huge attendance at any church, be it in the City or elsewhere!

The same surely goes for the May Bank Holiday, I would think.



IJ

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Indeed. I just checked on City Events and the number of concerts last year across all the City churches on both Easter Monday and May Day Bank Holiday was zero.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Understandably so, as clergy, choirs etc. take time to draw breath after Holy Week.

It will be interesting to see, nevertheless, what services etc. St. Sepulchre's provide over Christmas this year, and Holy Week next year.

IJ
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
...and just dropping in to observe that there's a fair number of concerts arranged for November:

http://stsepulchres.org/music/concerts/

There's a problem with this? They seem to be updating their website as fast as they can, but clearly not fast enough for the would-be lawyers.



IJ
 

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Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:
There is no Choral Eucharist down for 19th December. The office at SS thinks choral services will resume on 16th January. (The same office is also of the opinion that where the first Monday of a month is a bank holiday the "Music in Worship" concert won't take place so nothing in May and, in 2018 at least, nothing in April either.)

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The office staff probably have been told nothing definite yet about the resumption of choral services. And again, would it be the decision of the staff to make a decision that there's to be no concert on a bank holiday? I doubt it. It's scarcely fair to attack them.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Well, it seems that, for certain people, St. Sepulchre's staff can do nothing acceptable.



To give them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they are busily planning all sorts of services and events, none of which might necessarily be that easy to arrange, given the number of different people involved.

IJ
 

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Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Liturgylover:
…the church has always used the lectionary for the Sunday even before Mr Ingall and his flock arrived.

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quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:
The "Music in Worship" slot on the first Monday of the month which will be (to quote the website)

quote:

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exploring the importance and beauty of music in worship. Each evening will be around 60-90 minutes long, roughly three quarters of which will be music, with reflections on the music and worship alongside them.

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What they want is liturgical music, rather than just something with a sacred theme or subject:

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That sounds very restrictive, so is it necessarily the case? I can see a place for including music which isn't specifically religious yet which, played within the context of worship and placed between appropriate Christian readings and prayers, can be immensely inspiring and even challenging.

To take a parallel, one can sometimes include "secular" poems in a service which provide a powerful and thought-provoking response to a Bible reading or a sermon. Equally, one can use short video film clips to do the same. I'm not suggesting for a moment that St. S's has any intention of doing that, merely to say that the creative use of music in worship can encompass far more than "sacred" or "liturgical" stuff. The comment that this series will "explore" the use of music in worship seems to hint at this.
 

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Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :
 
This announcement has been made. It is probably not unconnected with the subject of this thread.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
IIRC, Bishop Pete mentioned it earlier in this thread.

Time will tell, but ISTM that throwing open all London churches - not just St. Sepulchre's - to fine music-making is a Good Thing.

Doubtless, the would-be litigators amongst will disagree....

IJ
 

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Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

Time will tell, but ISTM that throwing open all London churches - not just St. Sepulchre's - to fine music-making is a Good Thing.

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Yes, I'd agree with that. With some caveats, of course - there is value in a regular concert series being in the same location, so people know where to go, rather than being at a random church each week / month / whatever. Plus, of course, not all churches are created acoustically equal.

But a central clearing-house of churches that are willing to be concert hosts has to be a good thing.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
It does depend on the availability of willing volunteers to open up, move chairs, clean, even make coffee ....
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
So, all seems to have gone quiet on the St Sepulchre-without-Newgate front - or has it.

Was gobsmacked to find David Ingall on the TBN (Trinity Broadcasting Network) channel the other day. Having made this discovery I've kept an eye on the listings (Freeview 65 in the UK) and discover that HTB also appears on the channel under its own name. So presumably Messrs Gumbel, Ingall et al are more than happy to be associated with this organisation?

I think we should be told.

[ 17. January 2018, 14:22: Message edited by: L'organist ]
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 


Seriously creepy stuff - this 'prosperity Gospel' shite, yet again.

But it must work, when you look at all the bright, shiny, well-off HTB types...

IJ
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
I made myself watch David Ingall speaking about Mary, Martha and Lazarus: not only would it have earned me a detention during my years studying for 'O' level Scripture but it left me not knowing whether to or or

And Mr Ingall obviously doesn't consider himself to be ordained, a member of the Church of England, or know the correct title of the church where he has title since he is billed as David Ingall, St Sepulchre's In The City - so a bit like Carrie & Co but with tombs rather than sex???
 

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Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :
 
L'organist wrote:

quote:

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So presumably Messrs Gumbel, Ingall et al are more than happy to be associated with this organisation?

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quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:
I wonder if David Ingall has ever heard that well-known phrase You can tell a man by the company he keeps ?

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