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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Kathisma and kathatma
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
I've recently been following the Orthodox practice of praying the pslalms over a week, which divides the psLter into 20 units - a kathisma - and spreads the out for Mattins and Vespers.
One thing I cannot discern from my Internet searches is the rather peculiar order they going at the end of the week. From Saturday night until Thursday, you read the Psalter in order - kathisma 1 to 15.
But then on Friday, you start with 19 and 20 in the morning, 18 in the evening (the psalms of ascent), and then on Saturday morning go back to 16 ("the Lord said to my Lod...." and the Hillel psalms, followed by kathisma 17 (nitirely made up psalm 119/118).
Does anyone know why?
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I have no idea, but what wonderful words!
It all sounds rather obscure and esoteric, but doubtless there is a good reason, which one of our knowledgeable Orthodox Shipmates will come along and explain soon.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Liza
Shipmate
# 4366
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Posted
Well, I never post here, but I don't suppose I could resist answering this question. Basically this makes sense in the context of Orthodox cycles of services. The 17th Kathisma is used at funerals, memorial services, and generally in commemorations of the departed. Saturdays are historically a day when the departed are commemorated (and there is a variant to do the services as "memorial" services with many prayers for the departed every Saturday, although in practice, 5) it is usually done only on certain memorial Saturdays (Soul Saturdays). When a memorial Saturday happens, there's a special way of reading the 17th kathisma (with singing and prayers in the middle), and this happens as the second kathisma. So we take 16 and 17 for Saturday morning (this would be part of Matins) so as to read two in order with 17 second. (Note that 17 is ALSO technically appointed during part of the year for Sunday Matins for reasons that may be too complicated to get into now, but I will say that part of the psalm is used as a refrain for both a hymn for the departed and also a Sunday resurrectional hymn, and this connects them.
So. Why do we skip from 15 to 19-20 and then back to 18? 18 is considered as a kind of evening-ish kathisma (various references to sleep, "all ye servants of the Lord, who stand by night in the house of the Lord", etc). In fact, again during part of the year, 3 kathisma are appointed at Matins each day, and the 18th is read every evening for Vespers--not recommending that for private reading, just an interesting note. This is also done during Lent, when technically one would go through the Psalter 3 times each week instead of once, while reading the 18th kathisma for Vespers each evening.
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For in Thee is the fountain of life, in Thy light shall we see light.
Posts: 425 | From: Seattle | Registered: Apr 2003
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
Thanks Liza. That's really helpful.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Indeed. Interesting to note that Saturdays, or some of them, are set aside for commemorating the faithful departed.
At Our Place (backstreet C of E of the Anglo-Carflick persuasion), on one Saturday each month (usually the third, but not invariably), the 930am Eucharist is a Requiem Mass, during which the names of those in our Memorial book for that particular month are read out during the intercessions.
AIUI, this is a relic of mediaeval times, when the faithful departed (or, presumably, some of them) were commemorated at each Sunday's principal Mass.
Widening the OP a bit, is this sort of thing still common in churches, other than the Orthodox?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
It is,as you probably know,widespread in the RC church where usually the names of the sick,as well as the recently dead, as also those whose anniversary of death occurs,are read out at the Sunday Mass
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Well, I thought it might still be the case, and I'm glad to hear it is so.
We do the same at the Sunday Eucharist, but, as I said, also reserve one Saturday a month for the monthly Requiem.
I like the term 'Soul Saturday', BTW.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liza:
Well, I never post here, but I don't suppose I could resist answering this question. Basically this makes sense in the context of Orthodox cycles of services. The 17th Kathisma is used at funerals, memorial services, and generally in commemorations of the departed. Saturdays are historically a day when the departed are commemorated (and there is a variant to do the services as "memorial" services with many prayers for the departed every Saturday, although in practice, 5) it is usually done only on certain memorial Saturdays (Soul Saturdays). When a memorial Saturday happens, there's a special way of reading the 17th kathisma (with singing and prayers in the middle), and this happens as the second kathisma. So we take 16 and 17 for Saturday morning (this would be part of Matins) so as to read two in order with 17 second. (Note that 17 is ALSO technically appointed during part of the year for Sunday Matins for reasons that may be too complicated to get into now, but I will say that part of the psalm is used as a refrain for both a hymn for the departed and also a Sunday resurrectional hymn, and this connects them. ...
Is that when kolliva (? spelling?) is served? I don't know if one is supposed to say this, but I thought it was delicious.
[ 01. October 2017, 20:57: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Liza
Shipmate
# 4366
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Posted
Dyfrig--glad to help! With any Orthodox liturgical issues really ![[Smile]](smile.gif) .
Bishop's Finger--I do think requiems on Saturday is an old custom. I know it is in the East of course--can't say for sure in the West but it seems likely. Your custom sounds related to me.
In Orthodox liturgies, both living and departed (exactly who dependent on the parish) are commemorated at every liturgy in the Proskomedia (preparation that occurs before the service proper begins). There is additionally a litany commemorating the living at each liturgy, and one for the departed--this, along with memorial services, is eliminated on Sundays, due to the resurrectional nature of the service (departed are still commemorated, but the more solemn/sad parts are not included).
Enoch--yes, koliva is served on Soul Saturdays in memory of the departed. And it is often delicious!
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For in Thee is the fountain of life, in Thy light shall we see light.
Posts: 425 | From: Seattle | Registered: Apr 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liza:
Enoch--yes, koliva is served on Soul Saturdays in memory of the departed. And it is often delicious!
This is, of course, a matter of opinion. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Well, I thought it might still be the case, and I'm glad to hear it is so.
We do the same at the Sunday Eucharist, but, as I said, also reserve one Saturday a month for the monthly Requiem.
I like the term 'Soul Saturday', BTW.
IJ
I've more commonly heard those days referred to as Soul Sabbaths, but I suppose it's just one of those common differences in terminology as words and phrases try to find a home in the Anglophone world.
In our Western Orthodox rite the deacon commemorates the departed as part of the diptychs.
This is distinct from what might be termed the general intercessions, which takes the form of the Litany of St Martin and comes at the end of the Mass of the Catechumens. In this we pray in general terms for all people.
However, the diptychs are read near the start of the Mass of the Faithful, after the Gifts have been presented and placed on the altar. It's an expression of the communion of the church and happens just prior to the peace and the anaphora. Many of the saints, as well as the departed, along with travellers, the sick, and all the faithful, are prayed for by name at this point by the deacon, while the people sing various ostinato responses, "Attend to us, O Lord, through their prayers" (for the commemorations of the saints) and "Remember them, O Lord" (for the departed and the rest).
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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