homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Special interest discussion   » Ecclesiantics   » Kathisma and kathatma

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.    
Source: (consider it) Thread: Kathisma and kathatma
dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

 - Posted      Profile for dyfrig   Email dyfrig   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I've recently been following the Orthodox practice of praying the pslalms over a week, which divides the psLter into 20 units - a kathisma - and spreads the out for Mattins and Vespers.

One thing I cannot discern from my Internet searches is the rather peculiar order they going at the end of the week. From Saturday night until Thursday, you read the Psalter in order - kathisma 1 to 15.

But then on Friday, you start with 19 and 20 in the morning, 18 in the evening (the psalms of ascent), and then on Saturday morning go back to 16 ("the Lord said to my Lod...." and the Hillel psalms, followed by kathisma 17 (nitirely made up psalm 119/118).

Does anyone know why?

--------------------
"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

Posts: 6916 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I have no idea, but what wonderful words!

It all sounds rather obscure and esoteric, but doubtless there is a good reason, which one of our knowledgeable Orthodox Shipmates will come along and explain soon.

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8673 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Liza
Shipmate
# 4366

 - Posted      Profile for Liza   Email Liza   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well, I never post here, but I don't suppose I could resist answering this question. Basically this makes sense in the context of Orthodox cycles of services. The 17th Kathisma is used at funerals, memorial services, and generally in commemorations of the departed. Saturdays are historically a day when the departed are commemorated (and there is a variant to do the services as "memorial" services with many prayers for the departed every Saturday, although in practice, 5) it is usually done only on certain memorial Saturdays (Soul Saturdays). When a memorial Saturday happens, there's a special way of reading the 17th kathisma (with singing and prayers in the middle), and this happens as the second kathisma. So we take 16 and 17 for Saturday morning (this would be part of Matins) so as to read two in order with 17 second. (Note that 17 is ALSO technically appointed during part of the year for Sunday Matins for reasons that may be too complicated to get into now, but I will say that part of the psalm is used as a refrain for both a hymn for the departed and also a Sunday resurrectional hymn, and this connects them.

So. Why do we skip from 15 to 19-20 and then back to 18? 18 is considered as a kind of evening-ish kathisma (various references to sleep, "all ye servants of the Lord, who stand by night in the house of the Lord", etc). In fact, again during part of the year, 3 kathisma are appointed at Matins each day, and the 18th is read every evening for Vespers--not recommending that for private reading, just an interesting note. This is also done during Lent, when technically one would go through the Psalter 3 times each week instead of once, while reading the 18th kathisma for Vespers each evening.

--------------------
For in Thee is the fountain of life, in Thy light shall we see light.

Posts: 425 | From: Seattle | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

 - Posted      Profile for dyfrig   Email dyfrig   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thanks Liza. That's really helpful.

--------------------
"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

Posts: 6916 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Indeed. Interesting to note that Saturdays, or some of them, are set aside for commemorating the faithful departed.

At Our Place (backstreet C of E of the Anglo-Carflick persuasion), on one Saturday each month (usually the third, but not invariably), the 930am Eucharist is a Requiem Mass, during which the names of those in our Memorial book for that particular month are read out during the intercessions.

AIUI, this is a relic of mediaeval times, when the faithful departed (or, presumably, some of them) were commemorated at each Sunday's principal Mass.

Widening the OP a bit, is this sort of thing still common in churches, other than the Orthodox?

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8673 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376

 - Posted      Profile for Forthview   Email Forthview   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It is,as you probably know,widespread in the RC church where usually the names of the sick,as well as the recently dead, as also those whose anniversary of death occurs,are read out at the Sunday Mass
Posts: 3396 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well, I thought it might still be the case, and I'm glad to hear it is so.

We do the same at the Sunday Eucharist, but, as I said, also reserve one Saturday a month for the monthly Requiem.

I like the term 'Soul Saturday', BTW.

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8673 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Liza:
Well, I never post here, but I don't suppose I could resist answering this question. Basically this makes sense in the context of Orthodox cycles of services. The 17th Kathisma is used at funerals, memorial services, and generally in commemorations of the departed. Saturdays are historically a day when the departed are commemorated (and there is a variant to do the services as "memorial" services with many prayers for the departed every Saturday, although in practice, 5) it is usually done only on certain memorial Saturdays (Soul Saturdays). When a memorial Saturday happens, there's a special way of reading the 17th kathisma (with singing and prayers in the middle), and this happens as the second kathisma. So we take 16 and 17 for Saturday morning (this would be part of Matins) so as to read two in order with 17 second. (Note that 17 is ALSO technically appointed during part of the year for Sunday Matins for reasons that may be too complicated to get into now, but I will say that part of the psalm is used as a refrain for both a hymn for the departed and also a Sunday resurrectional hymn, and this connects them. ...

Is that when kolliva (? spelling?) is served? I don't know if one is supposed to say this, but I thought it was delicious.

[ 01. October 2017, 20:57: Message edited by: Enoch ]

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7233 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Liza
Shipmate
# 4366

 - Posted      Profile for Liza   Email Liza   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Dyfrig--glad to help! With any Orthodox liturgical issues really [Smile] .

Bishop's Finger--I do think requiems on Saturday is an old custom. I know it is in the East of course--can't say for sure in the West but it seems likely. Your custom sounds related to me.

In Orthodox liturgies, both living and departed (exactly who dependent on the parish) are commemorated at every liturgy in the Proskomedia (preparation that occurs before the service proper begins). There is additionally a litany commemorating the living at each liturgy, and one for the departed--this, along with memorial services, is eliminated on Sundays, due to the resurrectional nature of the service (departed are still commemorated, but the more solemn/sad parts are not included).

Enoch--yes, koliva is served on Soul Saturdays in memory of the departed. And it is often delicious!

--------------------
For in Thee is the fountain of life, in Thy light shall we see light.

Posts: 425 | From: Seattle | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Liza:
Enoch--yes, koliva is served on Soul Saturdays in memory of the departed. And it is often delicious!

This is, of course, a matter of opinion. [Two face]

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62941 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638

 - Posted      Profile for The Scrumpmeister   Author's homepage   Email The Scrumpmeister       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Well, I thought it might still be the case, and I'm glad to hear it is so.

We do the same at the Sunday Eucharist, but, as I said, also reserve one Saturday a month for the monthly Requiem.

I like the term 'Soul Saturday', BTW.

IJ

I've more commonly heard those days referred to as Soul Sabbaths, but I suppose it's just one of those common differences in terminology as words and phrases try to find a home in the Anglophone world.

In our Western Orthodox rite the deacon commemorates the departed as part of the diptychs.

This is distinct from what might be termed the general intercessions, which takes the form of the Litany of St Martin and comes at the end of the Mass of the Catechumens. In this we pray in general terms for all people.

However, the diptychs are read near the start of the Mass of the Faithful, after the Gifts have been presented and placed on the altar. It's an expression of the communion of the church and happens just prior to the peace and the anaphora. Many of the saints, as well as the departed, along with travellers, the sick, and all the faithful, are prayed for by name at this point by the deacon, while the people sing various ostinato responses, "Attend to us, O Lord, through their prayers" (for the commemorations of the saints) and "Remember them, O Lord" (for the departed and the rest).

--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

Posts: 14664 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged


 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools