Ship of Fools: Bill Clinton and the Pope

Thread: Bill Clinton and the Pope Board: The Laugh Judgment / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=61;t=000032

Posted by Simon (# 1) on :

Joke submitted by Callan:

Bill Clinton and the Pope die at the same time. Owing to an administrative mix-up, the Pope is sent to Hell and Clinton to heaven. It becomes quickly apparent that a mistake has been made, so St Peter gets on the phone to Lucifer and they agree to trade.

As Clinton and the Pope ascend and descend to their respective abodes they pass one another.

"No hard feelings, I trust," says Clinton.

"No hard feelings at all, my son," replies the Pope. "I'm so much looking forward to meeting the Blessed Virgin."

"I'm afraid you're a bit late for that," mutters Clinton as he continues his descent.

[ 11. July 2005, 09:00: Message edited by: Simon ]

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

Extremely offensive.

Most likely as I consider Our Lady to be 'more honoured than the cherubim and more glorious than the seraphim'. Besmirching her name is not on for me.

Posted by Lady Alicia of Scouseland (# 7668) on :

[Snore]

Posted by Custard. (# 5402) on :

"Our"?

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

It's more a joke about Bill Clinton than religion, isn't it? Saying that a) he should be in Hell and b) he'll bonk anything, lock up your daughters Bill's about...

Funny though. Very funny [Big Grin]

Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
"Our"?

Yes.

Posted by starbelly (# 25) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:

quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
"Our"?
Yes.

We do allow people to post more than one word at a time, in fact we prefer it.

Neil

Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :

Dosen't work for me, becuse I think Joseph as Mary's husband quite rightly 'got there first', probably a year or two, at the latest, after Jesus was born. In fact the joke is annoying in a way as it reminds me that there are many who belive Mary is still a Virgin, despite the Gospel reference to 'Jesus' mother and brothers'.

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :

While this one would work even if it didn't specifically have JPII and Clinton, I like a lot with those two.

Both were examples of men with a genuine caring about people (especially as individuals) combined with sharp intellects and a solidly pragmatic political skills. (Obviously manifested in quite different ways and styles!) I can just picture them both politely accepting the flurry of apologies after the mistake was discovered, smiling at one another as they pass on celestial staircase, genuinely having no hard feelings.

And then that guilty smirk I imagine on Clinton's face, plus the implied scene in Heaven when the Pope gets there and finds out what happened... well, it leaves me with a big guilty smirk of my own.

(Does this make Mary's new title MoGfkatBVM - Mother of God formerly known as the Blessed Virgin Mary?)

[ 08. July 2005, 13:47: Message edited by: jlg ]

Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :

I'm smiling - it is funnier because there could be two versions this year, one with John Paul (more appropriate - he mentioned Mary at every opportunity), the other with Benedict. I can picture John Paul elated, Benedict rather shy.

The implication that Bill Clinton, whose public manner always seemed very easygoing, was not at all bothered by being en route to hell, and that he'd bonk any woman in sight, is amusing. I did not find this joke hilarious, but it's mildly funny and not at all offensive.

Posted by babybear (# 34) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Extremely offensive.

Most likely as I consider Our Lady to be 'more honoured than the cherubim and more glorious than the seraphim'. Besmirching her name is not on for me.

Coot suggested on another thread that people might find jokes offensive if they were making fun of the creeds. I looked through the jokes that had been posted and found that this held true for me. I think the same has happened for Ian, except that his 'offensiveness area' includes some matters of doctrine.

I did not find it offensive because it did not touch one of the central tenents of my faith. I don't think about Mary at all except at Advent/Christmas and Lent/Easter. I would never think of her as being a virgin. I am quite happy with the virgin conception of Jesus, but I don't see any reason why Mary would remain a virgin.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by babybear:
I would never think of her as being a virgin. I am quite happy with the virgin conception of Jesus, but I don't see any reason why Mary would remain a virgin.

That's the paradox. Blessed Mary Ever Virgin and all that, once a virgin always a virgin. I thought this joke was tacky, it reduced her to the level of just an ordinary girl who could be wowed by a politician.

Posted by babybear (# 34) on :

Ah, I didn't get the joke then. Because I starting for a position where Mary was no longer a virgin it was pretty obvious that she couldn't have become a born-again virgin. Clinton was simply correcting the Pope's dodgy theology. It wasn't about Clinton seducing Mary.

I don't think either version was amusing or offensive.

Posted by The Coot (# 220) on :

I think one's mileage varies depending on the esteem one holds the BVM in. I find the 'thought experiment' of the seduction of the BVM distasteful, but gave it a low score on offensiveness. (I save my 5s for in real life desecration)

Posted by The Coot (# 220) on :

Another thought after visiting the Three Wise Men joke. What happens between Clinton and Mary is a bit dependent on your beliefs surrounding Mary. Eg. If you believe that she is Ever-Virgin, then for her to no longer be a virgin after Clinton has met her means that he has in some way sleazily seduced her or forced himself on her - which ups the offensiveness rating. But if you think that she has no commitment to chastity or virginity, then it is no biggie if she has succumbed to Mr Clinton's charms (and may have even been, in that reader's mind, a willing participant).

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

quote:
Originally posted by babybear:
Coot suggested on another thread that people might find jokes offensive if they were making fun of the creeds. I looked through the jokes that had been posted and found that this held true for me. I think the same has happened for Ian, except that his 'offensiveness area' includes some matters of doctrine.

I think that's spot on -- at least for me.

Add to this the fact that I've only recently began to seriously believe that Mary was ever-virgin and understand its significance, and perhaps that is why I found it so offensive. It is a doctrine I've only just begun to understand; that may have increased its offensiveness.

Ian.

Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
[QB] It's more a joke about Bill Clinton than religion, isn't it?

I agree with this assessment. the joke made me laugh, but not uproariously.

I'm not really invested much in the "perpetual virginity" of Mary, so perhaps that colored my response as well.

Those two things said, it's probably not a joke I would repeat.

sabine

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

I'm with JLG on this.

Posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you) (# 5647) on :

I laughed a lot, and rated it very funny, because Bill Clinton's inability to keep his dick in his pants is something that causes me huge annoyance and also a lot of amusement. I didn't even think of it as an insult to Mary till I read Ian's post. From that perspective I could see how it could be offensive to a Catholic who holds Mary in high esteem. I personally don't believe Mary was "ever virgin" but within the context of the joke I was sharing the Pope's assumption that she would be, and that Clinton would have been just as ready to do her as he was to do anything else in skirts ... so yeah, very funny and not at all offensive, until I thought about others' possible reactions.

Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :

Trudy made some points with which I agree.

Though this joke is not hilarious, I think it hinges entirely on one's assuming that the pope thinks of Mary as ever-virgin - because the joke is really about Clinton's sexual adventures, not about theology. Were it a matter of Clinton's correcting faulty theology on the part of the pope, it would not be funny in the least - it would make no sense.

Posted by adso (# 2895) on :

I've heard this one before (from a Welsh conductor in his 80s) but with Lloyd George instead of Clinton, and the punchline "Not any more she isn't, boyo!"
It was hilarious at the time but doesn't work so well in print. It needed the accents.

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :

This whole thing about whether one truly believes in the eternal virginity of the Blessed Mother I think exposes something of what makes a joke offensive.

Not because of the particular beliefs, but rather because it illustrates (as do the paedophile jokes, in a slightly different way) the ability - or lack thereof - to separate the non-reality of the joke from the reality of one's personal beliefs.

What on earth does a joke which implies that Bill Clinton (or some other public philanderer) seduced the Virgin Mary have to do with whether or not she actually is eternally virgin? Either she is or she isn't, but a joke is surely not capable of changing that fact, is it?

What I'm seeing is that people find jokes offensive either out of reflex ("I'm W-type Christian and jokes about X, Y and Z are offensive because they attack my church's teachings") or because the joke hits at something they aren't sure about ("Is the Virgin Birth really a fact? Did she remain ever-virgin or did she and Joseph have marital relations? If she is ever-virgin in heaven, is she still subject to temptation? Does that mean I'll still be subject to temptation in heaven?").

Posted by Midnight Scholar (# 9112) on :

I had a completely different reaction to this joke than anyone else who's posted, I think; I assumed that this was another dig at Clinton and his enconomy with the truth ('I...did...not..have... and so on) rather than a joke about Marian doctrine.

Years ago I quit the RC church because I could not and can not subscribe either to the doctrine of Mary's immaculate conception, nor to that of her perpetual virginity (and a couple other things, not relevant here); but even so it didn't occur to me that this was what the joke was about. To me it's a Clinton joke pure and simple, suggesting that he'll lie about anything, on earth or in heaven; and that if he can wind up the Pope in the process, so much the better.

Can almost hear him down there in the depths, attempting to dine out on it: 'And you know, the old guy actually believed me....'

Not offensive; but otoh no funnier than the average run of Clinton jokes.

mn

Posted by Glimmer (# 4540) on :

Yes, I think it's a joke about Clinton, requiring a suspension of belief about the BVM and an acceptance of a Clinton charicature. So therefore, the humour is diminished by the amount of effort required to 'get it'. A good, in-character punchline is essential to rescue it - like the aforementioned Lloyd George one.

Posted by uvatar (# 9848) on :

I heard this one before, not with Bill clinton, but with Mark Dutroux, a psycho who abducted, raped and killed children and young women here in belgium.

that version makes more sense to me... I as european don't see why it would be funny with clinton I'm affraid...

Posted by iGeek. (# 3207) on :

It was mildly funny for me and could have been funnier if Bill Clinton wasn't past his sell-by date.

I found it inoffensive but I'm guessing it's because I'm not Catholic.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0