quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
Celibacy and a perceived anti-Catholic bias in some forms of religious jokes. You don't get half as many jokes about the Archbishop of Canterbury as you do about the Pope. Priests in religious jokes tend to be equated with Catholic paedophiles and celibates often seem to be the target of jokes. Have you had any jokes about Orthodox clergy or other denominations or practices specific to them? ... I'm curious to get an idea of roughly what proportion of what you've received is overtly about Catholic clergy or practices as opposed to any other denomination.

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We've received over 650 jokes so far, and no one has yet done a count on how many of those have Catholic elements. But looking at the jokes posted on this board, here's the tally of the ones which have a specifically Catholic character or practice as the focus of the joke:

Nuns (7)
Priests (5)
The Pope (2)
Rome (1)
Statues in church (1)
Medjugorje (1)

Out of 55 jokes posted so far, 17 are Catholic (i.e. just over 30 per cent of the total). It could be that the Laugh Judgment selectors have an anti-Catholic bias, of course... but as far as I know, we've just selected the jokes which looked most funny or most interesting. We haven't had any jokes about Orthodox clergy. We have had one about the Archbishop of Canterbury, which I'll post in a few mins.

[ 19. July 2005, 08:18: Message edited by: Simon ]
 

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Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :
 
Are all the priests you mentioned specifically Catholic priests? When I read the word "priest" my first thought is a an Anglican priest, but I suppose that indicates where I am coming from. Similarly with nuns. There are Anglican nuns you know. So that would leave five specifically RC jokes? Plus the priest ones about celibacy (I really don't want to re-read them though).

I suppose with the scandals coming to light in recent years then maybe a lot of people assume the priests in the jokes are Roman Catholic, but I recall in the 70s and 80s that the tabloids just loved a chance to get "vicar" and "sex" in the same front page headline.

[ 19. July 2005, 08:35: Message edited by: Jonah the Whale ]
 

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Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
I'm not really surprised. I think there a several reasons to this.

First of all, the RC church sees itself as the direct successor of Christ, and of St Peter. Thus, it puts itself (perhaps rightly so) in a position of quite exclusive authority.

Secondly, the RCC is by far the largest and most well-structured Christian organisation in the world.

Thirdly, the RCC has an internal system of quite strict rules, valid for everyone. Some of these may be of a different age, and culturally bound, e.g. celibacy of priests, non-admission of women to priesthood, the 'infallibility' of the Pope, etc.

It seems therefore that for all of these three reasons, the RCC acts as a representative and perhaps catalyst of Christian faith, and naturally finds itself the target of a great many jokes and puns.

People seem to want to express their disagreement or discontent about those in authority, and vent their anger. This is the similar in any organisation, Christian or not, but due to the sheer overwhelming number of RCs, this puts much more weight (and perhaps wit? ) to it.
 

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Posted by Boreal (# 9550) on :
 
I've said this on the threads, and I'll say it again. One of the biggest reasons for this is that according to the RC rules (and public perception) RC priests and nuns are supposed to be celibate. This therefore opens up whole avenues of humor about their inexperience (ie, the nun who shouts out that she's sick of chablis, so she's glad there's now a case of chlamyida in the convent), or their possible experience when they're not supposed to have had any. Particularly when the latter, if you tell a joke saying "so this average guy in the street had taken a vow of celibacy" and then reveal that he's broken it, the whole joke doens't work, as there doesn't seem to have been any deep motivation or reason behind his vow, except this cheap joke.

I think if there was another religious order as well known for the celibacy of their clergy and nuns across the board as the RC, there would be just as many jokes about those. I don't see it as an anti-Catholic bias on the whole, just jokes about celibacy.

Although I do find the jokes about priests and the abuse scandal in the "all priests are pedophiles" tasteless in the extreme. That's a different view, and I think it is indeed anti-Catholic, when in fact there has sadly been abuse across all religions, just not as well publicized. The biggest scandal for the RC on this one was the hush up and the transfer of priests without warning, thus continuing exposing kids to danger, which is why it got the most press. But that's not the same as "all priests are pedophiles" and is a disservice to those who do serve admirably to make jokes in this vein.

In my experience, those who are celibate and in religious orders laugh about it the most. But I don't know anyone who would be involved in the abuse scandals who would laugh about it.
 

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Posted by Simon (# 1) on :
 
Jonah... the five jokes are specifically about Catholic priests -- they either use the word "Catholic" or relate to the confessional and celibacy. It might be argued that they could apply to Anglo-catholic priests, but as far as I know, Anglo-catholicism doesn't feature very highly in popular joke-telling.

I deliberately left out jokes that simply used the word "priest" with no obvious Roman Catholic setting, including three of the child abuse jokes: "Girl on a cliff", "Priest and pimple" and "What do you give..."
 

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Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :
 
OK, I stand corrected. As I said, there were some jokes in that lot I really didn't fancy re-reading to check.
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Simon:
Why do so many of the jokes we've received have Catholic characters... and does this equate to anti-Catholicism?

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quote:

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as a Protestant, I don't have any tyrannical authority-figure to look up to for blessing and approval. So I borrow the Catholics' when I need one.

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If we want to do jokes about christian leaders, talking about the current chair of district, mediator or whatever just isn't as funny as referring to the pope. They don't have the same status, so it's not so much fun to knock them down from it. So yes, I suppose a lot of the Catholic jokes are complements in disguise.
 

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Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
I'm still in consecrated life, and was RC (with many years in church ministries), so perhaps my perspective would be different than the norm. As well, I am old enough to remember the entire 'pre Vatican II mystique' - much religious humour from the days when nuns dressed in mediaeval garb and when some people would have centred their lives on visits from the priest for advice (no sinister element) would no longer work.

I do not see an anti-Catholic element in there being many RC jokes at all. This is the distinction that I see, which may seem obvious. In the particular case of this board, the topic is not religious humour in general, but the boundaries of what in such humour is offensive. There are scores of religious jokes which are not offensive in the least, and many of these would be related to the RC church specifically. Many would be warm, nostalgic, or otherwise quite positive. The only reason I can see that the ones here could possibly be taken as 'anti-Catholic' (Baptist, Jewish, whatever) is that exploring offence was the aim and jokes with that element were submitted.

Part of the humour that could be derived from celibacy might not be as apparent today - when it is being blamed for paedophilia... First, there is an element of paradox which those strongly RC might be able to catch. RC parish priests or those with vows of chastity (monks, nuns) often indeed are innocent in their personal behaviour - yet, within their ministries, often have been exposed to not only every variety of sexual behaviour (in discussion! I myself was once involved with a study related to norms for dealing with sex abuse cases, and a priest in the confessional has heard more than a prison psychiatrist) but has little capacity for blushing as a result. Yet (perhaps this has changed, but it was true post-Pius XI until certainly my own young adult years) priests and nuns had to be very careful about speaking of such matters openly. For example, a teaching Sister, not at all ignorant, had to skirt discussion of sexual matters, even in depth in a biology lesson or question in a theology class. It was not that she was stupid or embarrassed - but that parents might protest that they are supposed to be the only teachers of such particulars!

On another note, and silly though this is, I also am old enough to remember when any unmarried lady was considered (in some circles) to be so totally ignorant of anything related to sex (or even the difference between male and female bodies) that people would think they could not discuss that anyone had a hernia operation, or a miscarriage, whatever, in front of 'a single girl.' I think that some people thought that nuns, for example, thought angels delivered babies. In reality, though most nuns have been faithful to their vows of chastity and have no intention of violating them, such ignorance would be rare (and problematic if it did exist.) But contrasting an adult who supposedly is more ignorant of sex than an infant with a situation where there are such references is a prime topic for humour. (There used to be lots of jokes about innocent brides that were on that level.)

Today, with all the ecumenical efforts and casual liturgies, it might be easy to miss that Catholics not only were 'outsiders' in a Protestant culture but that many of them gloried in this, and set up their own institutions or groups with pride. (Of course, those who were Catholics from the time of the first Elizabeth to that of the second might have had another approach, but that's another topic for another thread.) The elements which set Catholics apart - the celibate clergy (who were seen as stronger for the sacrifice and dedication), certain devotions, beliefs about Mary - led to many an 'inside joke.' Of course, whatever differs from a norm can be the butt of ridicule, but the pride that Catholics used to take in being different balanced out the equation!

Though there have been few on this board, jokes about confession (which were not at all offensive) used to be quite popular. Before Humanae Vitae, when confession suddenly became a way for the big, bad hierarchy to control people's consciences, many people I knew (not my family, but especially devout Irish) used to have a little Saturday afternoon outing each week, for confession that was intended to help one gain indulgences or graces - those who went weekly usually had nothing to really confess (or thought they did not). So, various treatments of the subject made good 'joke material,' funnier for being true. One good friend of mine, who was a priest, used to tell me that he thought he'd spend his purgatory hearing confessions of pious Irish women, "they tell everything except what they should, and about everyone's sins but their own." As well, when someone actually did have 'something to say,' their embarrassment would often make them cloak it in euphemism.

Even Anglo-Catholics who make sacramental confession would never have used it as a weekly exercise, nor joined a crowd walking to the church on Saturday afternoon for this ritual. Today, a joke about confession could be seen as offensive because it either is not a part of some RC lives or is connected to intense devotion or repentance. Such jokes were not offensive in the days when it was largely a devotional action.

I realised I've rambled too much already, and I hope that at least a bit of it was useful. Yet I think basically that the distinctive nature of some RC practises (just as is true with Jews, who are also 'out of the mainstream') cries out for parody and exploration, yet at the same time is inoffensive when it is equally seen in the light of a group which valued and indeed often flaunted its 'oddity.'

The paedophile 'humour' indeed can be anti-Catholic, but again I see the sadness there in a larger sense. Many RC priests were superb in pastoral care, and indeed those of my generation would have known many young people whose lives had a very positive influence from priests (and, no, I do not mean they later remembered being molested.) Today, those who could indeed be helpful are hampered from this by fears of liability and unjust accusations, and the overall suspicion of 'all priests as paedophiles.' The celibacy of the clergy, which used to be seen as rather heroic and part of a total dedication to the parish (even if it meant criminal prosecution for defying laws against Catholicism once upon a time), now is viewed as some twisted way to turn men into criminals.

[ 19. July 2005, 12:27: Message edited by: Newman's Own ]
 

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Posted by saysay (# 6645) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Simon:
Why do so many of the jokes we've received have Catholic characters... and does this equate to anti-Catholicism?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Newman's Own:
I'm still in consecrated life, and was RC (with many years in church ministries), so perhaps my perspective would be different than the norm.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

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Originally posted by Newman's Own:
I'm still in consecrated life, and was RC (with many years in church ministries), so perhaps my perspective would be different than the norm.

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Whose 'norm' would your perspective be different to (or from)? Obviously you'll have your own unique perspective on an issue because of your particular experience, but I wondered which or whose 'norm' this perspective was to be contrasted with, in this case.

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I'm sorry - I should have been clearer. Inside jokes about celibacy, I would say, can have a different meaning for those who actually are celibates - and often a broader one. Obviously, celibacy is not a norm.

One thing I have found interesting, not only on this particular board but since the Ship's inception, is how it has surprised me over what people do become offended. I remember some hilarious articles Simon wrote in the early days - some MW reports that had me on the floor - and how unexpected it was that people were offended. (I still remember the C of E project about the Internet about which Simon wrote with great humour, to the chagrin of one participant. Or the church where feathers were ruffled because the organist broke her wrist...)

In my experience, a small number of people can be offended because a particular matter is especially delicate for them. For example, there were a number of very clever jokes in circulation 30 years ago, which centred on the negative side of Vatican II. Most people in RC church work found them funny - but others (for example, lay people who felt it was the Council that gave them the opportunity for new ministries) could be very slighted. (This though the jokes had nothing at all to do with people in new ministries.)

Actually, there are a number of attitudes which I encountered through my long RC career that cry out for inclusion in jokes - yet I've never seen any on those topics. People who are sent out to 'visit' who have no idea what they are doing. Priests who answer everything with "but it's your obligation." NFP practitioners who think the world is crying out to know what day they bonked that week. Nuns who will address a group of young adults, who join said group hoping to meet spouses, with crap about 'single life as vocation.'
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
This is totally from the English standpoint.

I wonder if a hundred years ago there was a lot of non-conformist jokes, if JB Priestley's When we are married is anything to go by, it was the case. One simply could not imagine anyone writing such a play today (mores the pity as non-conformity is as cliche bound as ever).

Now this is interesting, because the non-conformist then and the Roman Catholics today would describe themselves as "the new establishment" of words to that effect.

I think therefore part of it may be a case of that good old English pastime "Teasing them who have got ideas of themselves above their station".

Jengie
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
I think it's because the RC church has more stuff to make jokes about. While more Protestant churches (I mean Baptist, etc. rather than Anglican) have people of a certain personality type which can be parodied (the Church Lady from Saturday Night Live, for example, as well as televangelists), they don't have a set of things (special clothes, icons or statues, the confessional, and so on) which one can make jokes about. It could be argued that the more individualistic approach of the more Protestant churches means less church structure to make jokes about as well. There are a few jokes about sermons, bits about the Bible (Who are the five constipated men in the Bible? etc.) but the sorts of incongruities one can explore in many jokes which turn on special clothing and mistaken identity (nuns, priests, monks wear habits), religious artifacts, church structure, and so on seem to be things which a more Protestant church doesn't have as much to work with.
 

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Posted by KenWritez (# 3238) on :
 
RC priests have become the Western cultural archetype for "priest."

Read this: Two priests walk into a bar....

What type of priests did you see in your mind? I'll bet most of you saw Roman Catholic priests. Very few saw Hindu priests or rabbis.

Read this: Three nuns walk into a church....

Again, I'll bet most of you saw Roman Catholic nuns and the church was likely a huge Gothic cathedral. Very few saw Buddhist nuns walk into a Shinto shrine or evangelical church.

The price of that archetype is commonality; RC priests are the default icon for all priests unless noted otherwise.

"Two televangelists walk into a bar...."

See?
 

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Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by KenWritez:
"Two televangelists walk into a bar...."

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The mind boggles!

[ 21. July 2005, 20:48: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
 

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Posted by Skip Church (# 9824) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Simon: Out of 55 jokes posted so far, 17 are Catholic (i.e. just over 30 per cent of the total).

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quote:

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Originally posted by KenWritez:

Read this: Two priests walk into a bar....

What type of priests did you see in your mind? I'll bet most of you saw Roman Catholic priests. Very few saw Hindu priests or rabbis.

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[tangent]
Um, rabbis aren't priests. Hebrew priests are descendents of Aaron.
[/tangent]

[ 25. July 2005, 20:47: Message edited by: J. J. Ramsey ]
 

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Posted by Phred22 (# 3857) on :
 
I'm a little surprised you haven't had more jokes about evangelicals. Is it simply a shortage of American posters or is something else at work
 

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Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:

quote:

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Originally posted by KenWritez:

Read this: Two priests walk into a bar....

What type of priests did you see in your mind? I'll bet most of you saw Roman Catholic priests. Very few saw Hindu priests or rabbis.

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[tangent]
Um, rabbis aren't priests. Hebrew priests are descendents of Aaron.
[/tangent]

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I didn't even know Hindus had priests.

 

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Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
I didn't know about buddhist nuns either.... but just looked it up..... long tradition etc. etc.
 

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Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Phred22:
I'm a little surprised you haven't had more jokes about evangelicals. Is it simply a shortage of American posters or is something else at work

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quote:

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Originally posted by KenWritez:

"Two televangelists walk into a bar...."

See?

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But it could have gone like this:

'One was concussed and the other suffered mild contusions. It was an iron bar, of course.'

I know. Hardly hilarious! But it's possible ?!
 

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Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

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Originally posted by KenWritez:

"Two televangelists walk into a bar...."

See?

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But it could have gone like this:

'One was concussed and the other suffered mild contusions. It was an iron bar, of course.'

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quote:

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Originally posted by tclune:

quote:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

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Originally posted by KenWritez:

"Two televangelists walk into a bar...."

See?

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But it could have gone like this:

'One was concussed and the other suffered mild contusions. It was an iron bar, of course.'

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More likely, it will end with them turning the wine into water...

--Tom Clune

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After drinking it?

(They entered the bar through the Baptist door, of course.)
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
There must be a 65 to 70% chance of me getting my hosting boots on soon. Can we keep this thread on track please?

Pyx_e
 

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Posted by Phred22 (# 3857) on :
 
I've been wondering if the fact that pedophile priests were, until a few years back, a closely-held dirty secret, has anything to do with the number of jokes now circulating on the subject. How often do joke-tellers get something truly new in the way of material?
 

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Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Phred22:
I've been wondering if the fact that pedophile priests were, until a few years back, a closely-held dirty secret, has anything to do with the number of jokes now circulating on the subject. How often do joke-tellers get something truly new in the way of material?

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quote:

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phred22 claims:
that pedophile priests were, until a few years back, a closely-held dirty secret

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