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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Here be Dinosaurs???
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Clemency
Shipmate
# 16173
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Posted
Some wisdom please! A friend who is a Creationist (which I definitely am not) showed me a book comparing representations of dragons, from cultures all over the world, with modern reconstructions of dinosaurs - and some seemed awfully close to be just coincidence. Check out the saurians on Bishop Bell's 1421 brass in Carlisle Cathedral (plenty about them online) for instance. His take is that they were all created c 4000 BC and went to make Noah's Ark a Jurassic Park, then died out more recently (but maybe a few are still around...). I can't see that - but what is the explanation? Dreams that descend in our genes from the days when we were little furry things doing our best to avoid either being gobbled or trodden on? Medieval palaeontologists as skilled as those today? Ideas welcome....
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Who knows where the Time goes?
Posts: 90 | From: Northumberland, UK | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I've heard it said that depictions of dragons are surprisingly consistent across cultures separated by great distances. Chinese dragons, for instance, aren't very different in appearance from those in western art - so some would claim that they derive from depictions of actual creatures ...
I've even heard a rather fundie Orthodox Christian (a convert) claim that because icons don't contain anything that isn't true, then dragons must have existed because St George is shown killing one.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I don't know whether I've got any wisdom to share on this one. Save to say to your Young Earth Creationist friend, 'Don't be daft ...'
I don't think I've ever seen any medieval depictions of dragons that show anything that looks like a brontosaurus.
Have you?
They all look like veloceraptors on speed.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
I have an idea. Pursuant to the Board Guidelines, let's send this to Dead Horses. Now.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Whoops ...
Just looked up the saurians on Bishop Bell's brass.
There are also Google images of what look like stegosaurs in medieval carving.
Goodness me. I repent. Come back YEC-ists. All is forgiven.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Here is something that purports to be a skeptics' debunking of the Bishops Bell claims. I'm not sure of all the science involved(eg. What exactly were the 3D artists reproducing, if they never even knew about the original artwork?)
The salient thing for a scientific illiterate like me is the comparison of the two photos.
[ 04. November 2016, 19:41: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
Practically the same problem occurs with the YEC, unless they actually were in just pre-columbus Scottish lowlands!
So you get lots of European/Middle East/North Africa contact.
Also a pictures I found seemed to come back to the one website (which I'm not trusting with my PC), so there's just a little bit that makes me wonder.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Reconstructions of dinosaurs have a fair amount of artists' impression about them, and the representations of dragons were created by artists. Both were inspired by previous art but also by other known, natural creatures such as crocodiles and large birds of prey. A lot of art of St. George depicts something very crocodile-like. There's also some very horse-like features in dragon heads. Add in snakes and other reptiles and you've got enough motifs in the natural world that mean that imagined large lizards are going to end up not dissimilar to artists' impressions of real large lizards. The mistake is to thing that the common source material need be either dinosaurs or dragons.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
[finishing the sentence]
So you get lots of European/Middle East/North Africa contact. Perhaps some Chinese/Indian Ocean/etc... but limited space for a lost world.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Hmm. The reason the dinosaurs are called terrible lizards is because the paleontologists thought they looked like lizards.
eg. scroll down on this daft page: dragonish lizard
Or this more sensible one: Texas Horned Lizard
Or this one: Green Basilisk LIzard
Just do an image search on lizards - the page is crawling with dragons.
[ 04. November 2016, 19:56: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I expect that ancient peoples dug up and saw fossils on all continents where we find the fossils today. It's pretty easy to conjecture based on that. Though interestingly, in western Canada where there are many high quality skeleton fossils, there is no tradition parallel ideas such as the OP suggests. It would also be easy to consider that none of the Old World cultures developed their ideas independently. China was in contact with the Middle East in years B.C.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
That'll do for me, Stetson. If apparently saurian creatures were depicted on Bishop Bell's memorial brass then we'd expect to see images of them in far more places than a Creationist website.
Looks highly suspicious to me.3
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
A bit tangential, but...
A few years back, I read a newspaper article about a study in which monkeys who had never seen reptiles before reacted with fear when shown photos of snakes. The conclusion drawn was that higher mammals, at least, are hardwired by natural-selection to dislike the mere appearance of reptiles.
If true(usual science-reporting caveats apply), that would mean our culturally antagonistic relationship with reptiles has some pretty deep roots. Though one can observe that dragons in the Far East are often seen as friendly.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Arethosemyfeet is very patient in demonstrating the utter unnecessity of the spectacular failure of reason that equates dragons with a race memory of dinosaurs from when were rats.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
One word? Fossils.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Clemency
Shipmate
# 16173
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Posted
Fossils as an explanation? - it took a long time to get to our current reconstructions of dinosaurs, as anyone who has seen the charming early Victorian versions in the Crystal Palace grounds will realise. Palaeontology just was not there in the 15th century - and most dinosaur remains come from the USA anyway. And there are plenty of images of Bishop Bell's saurians on line - I gather the Cathedral authorities are tired of YEC people coming to see them and have a heavy rug over the brass now. 4000 BC, medieval palaeontologists, race memory from when we were rats - no, we need something else, some out-of-the-box thinking...
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Who knows where the Time goes?
Posts: 90 | From: Northumberland, UK | Registered: Jan 2011
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
I suppose if I had never seen an elephant, nor a picture of one, and someone told me to draw an elephant, and told me that they had heard from someone else that elephants had four legs like tree trunks and a tail and a long wavey thing at the front with a nose on the end of it (You mean a long neck and a smallish kind of head? Yeah, I suppose), then I might indeed come up with something that looked a bit like a brontosaurus.
Alternatively, it's Nessie.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
It looks like pareidolia to me. We interpret the image through our culture-bound glasses.
And don't forget the spaceman carved on a buttress of Salamanca cathedral (or the dragon eating an ice-cream cone).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
I'm struggling to find many online, (though Bishop Bell died in 1496, so the date seems a bit ropey, which doesn't help searching). (Though think now found 3 separate potential image lines*).
In any case though there's enough Saurian 'Dragon' pictures to be worthy of debate.
So I guess the first thing to do, is make sure the separate possibilities stay separate. Don't let them have the advantages of shifting century for each point. To have their cake and eat it, either or a mixture is fine.
Are they claiming sustainable dinosaur populations were in 15th C Britain, while so keep the consequences of that in mind. Similarly for any other modern civilizations.
If claiming a cultural meme (for want of a better word) from a (proposed) earlier time of overlap. Then it would need some transmission, and you'd expect to see proportionate traces, depending on how specific the details are (or if the description would be sufficiently vague to overlap with a bad description of a giraffe or crocodile, then we can't tell which it's meant to be, and it's easy to imagine hearing about those).
If blending the two, you have the problems as well as the advantages.
If claiming divine inspiration, then what for?
If not shown on the ark or being hunted by suitable dressed people, then it's not showing anything with regards to dates. It's no more or less a miracle to show something from 5000 years as 65 million, but then again that doesn't have much purpose.
*one did have some of other pictures (including one identified as an Aardvark), and some others as more british animals (which don't really resemble them either)
hoping neither of the 2 I tested have done anything bad to PC.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clemency:
Fossils as an explanation? - it took a long time to get to our current reconstructions of dinosaurs, as anyone who has seen the charming early Victorian versions in the Crystal Palace grounds will realise. Palaeontology just was not there in the 15th century - and most dinosaur remains come from the USA anyway. And there are plenty of images of Bishop Bell's saurians on line - I gather the Cathedral authorities are tired of YEC people coming to see them and have a heavy rug over the brass now. 4000 BC, medieval palaeontologists, race memory from when we were rats - no, we need something else, some out-of-the-box thinking...
No, we merely need thinking. There are fossils on every continent including Antarctica. (Though, strangely, no dragon legends from there! ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) )
There are plenty of pics on line, but far fewer sources of those same images. In other words, multiple copies of the same manipulated image on multiple crackpot sites does not constitute a preponderance of evidence.
Our modern representations of saurians are more accurate, but it is not as if humans thought they looked like orangutans prior.
And, as mentioned, early descriptions of living animals ended with some pretty fantastical representations.
If dinosaurs coexisted with humans, we'd have many representations and they'd not be so sketchy.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I love medieval art. One of the most charming examples I've seen is the depiction on a fresco in the basilica on the Venetian island of Torcello which shows beasts at the Last Judgement vomiting up the bodies of people they'd devoured.
Alongside lions, wolves, bears and leopards are elephants and camels - which the artist clearly believed to be carnivorous.
Ok, that's got nothing to do with apparent saurians on Bishop Bell's tomb, but if there are brontosauruses there - why don't they appear anywhere else in medieval art? Much of which is standardised around particular motifs.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clemency:
- no, we need something else, some out-of-the-box thinking...
So, I am seriously curious as to what the out-of-the-box thinking is here.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Come on, if there were dinosaurs battling each other openly during the Middle Ages, don't you think we'd have more evidence of it than one brass engraving? Hunting trophies, illuminations, tapestries, recent, not fossilized bones... something?
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I think I'm starting to get the point of this thread. Do you mean there really are people who think there were brontosauri et al wandering around in the middle ages?
Because that would be way cool if it were true. ![[Cool]](cool.gif) What an awesome idea. Pity it's not.
I did look up the Bishop stuff, but got conflicting sites. Are there really brontosaurus-shaped thingies on the brass, does anyone here know? Because it wouldn't prove a thing except that someone had an awesome imagination and a gift for coincidence, but it would still make me happy all week. Like the carnivorous camels.
[ 06. November 2016, 00:03: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Come on, if there were dinosaurs battling each other openly during the Middle Ages, don't you think we'd have more evidence of it than one brass engraving? Hunting trophies, illuminations, tapestries, recent, not fossilized bones... something?
Part of YEC is that fossils can be formed much quicker than your Godless atheist "science" maintains.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
Alternatively, it's Nessie.
If you look up the Lambton Wyrm you'll find there are various stories of dragon-like creatures in the Scottish borders in the Middle Ages.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
John Lambton does not catch anything until the church service finishes, at which point he fishes out a small eel- or lamprey-like creature with nine holes on each side of its salamander-like head. Depending on the version of the story, the worm is no bigger than a thumb, or about 3 feet long. In some renditions it has legs, while in others it is said to more closely resemble a snake.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Yeah, but ...
The Lambton Worm grew into a humungous beast - big enough to mark the local landscape. The hill topped by the Penshaw Monument isn't small. It's the biggest hill in the neighbourhood.
I wouldn't describe Sunderland and Washington as on the Scottish borders. There's Newcastle and all of Northumberland between there and the Scottish border country.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Clemency
Shipmate
# 16173
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Posted
Sorry I got Bishop Bell date wrong, it is 1496. I don't think one can doubt the saurian APPEARANCE of his beasties but I don't think any dinosaur fossils have ever come from the Carlisle area, the Triassic beds are all barren desert sandstones (nor are aardvarks common around Carlisle, at least when I passed through last week I did not notice any). The images most likely came from a circulating bestiary which could have drawn inspiration from anywhere in Europe.
Throwing another one into the mix, some YEC folk point to the Beowulf saga as having dinosaurs in it - Grendel, the first beast the hero kills, is a 'mouthslayer', walks on his hind legs, and is slain by having one of his small front legs ripped off.... so they say. Any Beowulf experts out there???.
I have no answers on this, am just intrigued
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Who knows where the Time goes?
Posts: 90 | From: Northumberland, UK | Registered: Jan 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Though interestingly, in western Canada where there are many high quality skeleton fossils, there is no tradition parallel ideas such as the OP suggests.
Although if you go west far enough, you get Ogopogo.
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Here is something that purports to be a skeptics' debunking of the Bishops Bell claims. I'm not sure of all the science involved(eg. What exactly were the 3D artists reproducing, if they never even knew about the original artwork?)
The salient thing for a scientific illiterate like me is the comparison of the two photos.
The skeptic sites I found on this were most unsatisfying. Not terribly well written, no footnotes or references, and rather snide in tone. No school child would be allowed to use them as a reference for anything. Raw, unsubstantiated claims. Very disappointing. Come on, evolution fans. We can do better than this.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clemency:
Throwing another one into the mix, some YEC folk point to the Beowulf saga as having dinosaurs in it - Grendel, the first beast the hero kills, is a 'mouthslayer', walks on his hind legs, and is slain by having one of his small front legs ripped off.... so they say. Any Beowulf experts out there???.
Grendel (and his mother) are according to the poem descended from Cain. They're trolls or giants. They walk on two legs because they're humanoid. They don't have front legs, they have arms, and Grendel's arm is not small.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Come on, evolution fans. We can do better than this.
Eh, it is such a joke that it doesn't require any effort. The foolish that believe it will not be convinced in the face of any evidence.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Items made of leather have survived from earlier than Bishop Bell. Grendel's arm was nailed up as a trophy. Would it not be likely that, if there were enough dinosaurs around in the Middle Ages for a reproducing group, somewhere there would be a skin preserved as a trophy in a fit state for examination and DNA analysis? Now I'll grant you that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but complete absence of any physical evidence at all, anywhere, is a bit of clue that there was no source for it. If there were, the YEC's would have found it by now.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
OK, in as non-derisive a tone as I can manage, there will be YEC's who think that humans and dinos coexisted but died out before the middle ages.
There is still a MASSIVE evidence problem, but one that conveniently skirts a the lack of it in written history.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Come on, evolution fans. We can do better than this.
Eh, it is such a joke that it doesn't require any effort. The foolish that believe it will not be convinced in the face of any evidence.
There are some who fall in the middle of your black and white binary.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Come on, evolution fans. We can do better than this.
Eh, it is such a joke that it doesn't require any effort. The foolish that believe it will not be convinced in the face of any evidence.
There are some who fall in the middle of your black and white binary.
I'm not sure what binary you are referring to.
That YEC is foolish? Please explain how it isn't or might only partially be.
Or do you mean this particular image?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Clemency
Shipmate
# 16173
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Posted
The evolution/ anti-evolution thing (which is what i was trying to steer clear of) is a war zone ,and in war zones you lose the truth pretty quickly on both sides. I am convinced there is good evidence for time, a lot of time, more than the 6000 years the YECs allow us -but I cannot help having a sneaking suspicion that generally-accepted evolutionary and geological history may have some major errors in it, and that some of the YEC arguments may have some validity (even if they do not quite point to their conclusions), if only people could quietly and dispassionately consider them. But as I said, it'#s a war zone....
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Who knows where the Time goes?
Posts: 90 | From: Northumberland, UK | Registered: Jan 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
xpost -- this is to LB
People who find this an obvious joke, and people who will not be convinced in the face of any evidence.
[ 06. November 2016, 21:51: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clemency:
The evolution/ anti-evolution thing (which is what i was trying to steer clear of) is a war zone ,and in war zones you lose the truth pretty quickly on both sides.
It is only a "war zone" because some people feel science is a threat to their belief system. It doesn't need to be.
And this equal sides mentality is rubbish. Both sides of an issue do not always have parity. Indeed, all the reality can be on one side.
quote:
I am convinced there is good evidence for time, a lot of time, more than the 6000 years the YECs allow us -but I cannot help having a sneaking suspicion that generally-accepted evolutionary and geological history may have some major errors in it, and that some of the YEC arguments may have some validity (even if they do not quite point to their conclusions), if only people could quietly and dispassionately consider them. But as I said, it'#s a war zone....
Lay it on me; what evidence or even speculation is there to suggest YEC have any valid points?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
xpost -- this is to LB
People who find this an obvious joke, and people who will not be convinced in the face of any evidence.
I do not see any difference between considering the image is legitimate and being convinced it is. Either represents an patently ridiculous view of the world.
I do not ridicule the belief that God created the universe even though I do not accept it myself. I do ridicule the idea that s/he did it in 6 days and only 6K years ago.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Okay this isn't working so maybe if I just say this, it will help clear up wtf I'm talking about:
There are people for whom a clear, well-argued refutation of this brass thing would be helpful and well-received. People who can still be reached by reasoning and facts. Maybe not many. But they exist. And for that reason I was disappointed that there were no serious articles to be found that laid out a rational, defensible case against the Bishop Bell saurids.
You seem to think there's no point in doing so -- people who don't immediately see that it's a hoax are not going to be convinced by any amount of evidence. You have painted the world black and white -- there are two kinds of people in your estimation: those who see it's a joke, and those who can never be brought to see it's a joke.
I am claiming there are people who are in neither of these camps, and for their sake the oh-so-wise evolutionaries might stoop to creating something that can be used to show these grey types what's really going on.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Maybe not. In treating these things as anything other than ridiculous, it lends an air of credibility. Look at climate change, Brexit and Trump.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Trump is as serious as a heart attack. And the fact that the polls waver back and forth show it's not two convinced camps whose opinions are set in stone. The facts reject your analysis.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Trump was lent credibility by people paying him attention. If the media had ignored him, he would likely have fared less well or been forced to actually say something substantive instead of spewing hate and ridiculousness.
Enough of that tangent here.*
Regarding the bishop's dinosaur and other "evidence": by continuing a dialogue with creationists, one lends them credibility. The science to refute such things exits, nothing further need be said.
*Not Junior hosting, just not personally going to continue.
[ 07. November 2016, 00:07: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Okay, well, I understand that. I suppose my question* then, given what I discovered while trying to find debunkings of the aforementioned brass saurids, is this:
Why do evolutionists who do attempt to debunk creationist nonsense do such a fucking crappy job of it?
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*in general -- I'm not expecting you to answer this
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Okay, well, I understand that. I suppose my question* then, given what I discovered while trying to find debunkings of the aforementioned brass saurids, is this:
Why do evolutionists who do attempt to debunk creationist nonsense do such a fucking crappy job of it?
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*in general -- I'm not expecting you to answer this
But do they? The evidence for evolution is pretty solid. The evidence for a 6K earth isn't. As I understand it, YEC wasn't even a big thing until the early 20th C.
Bishop Bell's dinosaur image seems to appear almost exclusively on YEC pages, doesn't even get a reference on Wikipedia's page on the bishop.
Why should anyone be expected to refute something that they are not aware of?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The evidence for evolution is pretty solid. The evidence for a 6K earth isn't. As I understand it, YEC wasn't even a big thing until the early 20th C.
All irrelevant to the question I asked.
quote:
Bishop Bell's dinosaur image seems to appear almost exclusively on YEC pages, doesn't even get a reference on Wikipedia's page on the bishop.
Why should anyone be expected to refute something that they are not aware of?
Did you read what I wrote? I'm not talking about people who aren't aware of it. I'm talking about people who ARE aware of it, and are intentionally setting out to disprove it. And they do a phenomenally bad job.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Did you read what I wrote? I'm not talking about people who aren't aware of it. I'm talking about people who ARE aware of it, and are intentionally setting out to disprove it. And they do a phenomenally bad job.
Yes I read what you wrote. I don't know what to tell you, I don't expect random people on the internet to be authoritative or competent.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
My view on this is that science itself is great, but there is such a thing as bad science and bad vulgarisation of science. These things persist because they benefit from the reflected legitimacy of the scientific method, but they are often not up to par.
See for instance this Economist article on why "poor scientific methods may be hereditary".
I'm not a YEC and I don't think dinosaurs walked in Cumbria in the Middle Ages, but I think many people's faith in the reliability of the scientific community (as opposed to science) is, if not misplaced, rather more uncritical than science itself would allow.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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