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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Cub & Boy Scouts To Allow Trans Kids To Join
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
...based on the gender stated on their applications, and not their birth certificates.
"Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts Begin Accepting Transgender Children." (NBC News)
Thoughts?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Two thoughts.
1.About time
2.Tempest in a teapot. Given the percentages of trans people, then divide that in half, the odds that most scouts will actually belong to a unit that has a trans person in it become very small.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I don't think it's a "tempest in a teapot". Not when being trans while using a bathroom is still such an issue here. Being trans *at all* is still a major issue.
The Boy Scouts of America, AIUI, has a long history of sexual abuse of kids, conflating being gay with being sexually abusive, and keeping out gay staff and gay kids. IIRC, they finally agreed to allow gay staff and kids in, within the last couple of years.
I doubt they were any more fond of trans people. So this *IS* a big step.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
For what it's worth, a practical problem they are doubtless going to have to solve is what to do about current sleeping rules. Scouts are not permitted to sleep in the same tent with unrelated adults, nor with unrelated youth of a different gender. In the case, say, of a venturing crew (which can include both males and females up to age 21), you could find yourself needing two gendered tents for the under 18 group, the between-18-and-21 group (they age out at 21), and adult leadership. Thus six tents. I'm fairly sure that this is going to add an extra tent (mainly on account of clothes changing* **) for those who identify with a different gender to the one their bodies suggest--and given that we're talking youth here, that's probably every transkid. So I expect the youth protection training guidelines have been changed in the month since I took the courses last.
I'm not making any sort of political statement here--simply pointing out that there are logistical ramifications that would need working out.
* Yes, I know this can be accomplished discreetly, even if one stood outside in full view of God and everybody. I also know that a lot of kids don't accomplish it discreetly under any circumstances. And kids can be assholes about "checking out" / mocking anybody who is bodily different than they are used to. Or even not--which is why youth protection training has a section on making sure Scouts don't take cameras or camera phones anywhere near places where embarrassing pics could be shot, such as toilets.
I'm fine with transkids joining Scouts. But I'm very glad I don't have to write the guidelines and legal policies. It makes my head spin.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I don't think it's a "tempest in a teapot". Not when being trans while using a bathroom is still such an issue here. Being trans *at all* is still a major issue.
The Boy Scouts of America, AIUI, has a long history of sexual abuse of kids, conflating being gay with being sexually abusive, and keeping out gay staff and gay kids. IIRC, they finally agreed to allow gay staff and kids in, within the last couple of years.
I doubt they were any more fond of trans people. So this *IS* a big step.
It is a big step conceptually and that is not nothing.
But ISTM, few will face practical implementation.
And that is part of the ridiculousness of the opposition to the integration.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
Presumably this is mostly about trans boys? If so, it doesn't strike me as a huge shift - almost all of the opposition I've come across to shared bathrooms is about trans women/girls, not trans men/boys.
Anxious parents don't want their daughter sharing a tent with a boy, whether a CIS male or a trans girl (who they perceive as still male). It's part of the 'male=danger' threat narrative, and is primarily about masculinity being seen as dangerous, not trans identity itself.
The Girl Scouts of America have quite vague statement about trans girls. Their policy is a much more significant indicator of social attitudes than the Boy Scouts'.
[ 01. February 2017, 13:12: Message edited by: Hiro's Leap ]
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
The Girl Scouts of America have quite vague statement about trans girls. Their policy is a much more significant indicator of social attitudes than the Boy Scouts'.
I don't think it's that vague.
quote:
That said, if the child is recognized by the family and school/community as a girl and lives culturally as a girl, then Girl Scouts is an organization that can serve her in a setting that is both emotionally and physically safe.
I think what it means is that they're not going to force the girl scout troop at your local Catholic church to accept a trans girl, but will work with the girl and her family to find a local troop where she will be comfortable and accepted. And that as a national organization they absolutely accept trans girls as girls.
The bit about accommodation for trans girls on campouts and so on says "do what your schools do". It might not be the bold stance that some would hope they'd make, but it's a pretty sensible one, given that what they do at school tends to establish norms for most children.
Shipmates might remember this girl scout story.
[ 02. February 2017, 05:15: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Send em to Canada. Scouts have been gender-neutral for over 25 years.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
Leorning Cniht, I think the US Guides' FAQ is pragmatic but pretty non-committal. I'm not criticising it for that - just arguing that they face greater obstacles than the Boy Scouts do in terms of parental fears and pressure.
That said, I just checked the British Girlguiding website. It turns out that a couple of weeks ago they updated their trans rules and (as far as I can tell) their current support for all trans people is very impressive. Which doesn't help my case at all but is wonderful to see.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
It's good that the organization managed to deal with a trans kid.
They have bigger problems pending;
Girls in California want to be Boy Scouts ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I have a daughter who wants to be a Boy Scout. She likes the stuff they do much more than what the Girl Scouts offer.
She's currently counting the days until she's old enough to join a Venturing Crew.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Girls can be Scouts in the UK, but boys can't be Guides.
The Girl Guides I'm involved with camp, light fires, climb, build rafts, go hiking, do archery and a whole lot more. Those who want to are camping now. The climbing, building rafts, archery and hiking are things we arrange as usual meeting sessions, although some have to wait for the longer evenings in summer, but we went on a night walk in November.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Americans looking for an alternative to Scouting might take a look at Camp Fire. I was in it, back when it was Camp Fire Girls. It's now co-ed. Not hard-core outdoors, but the kids do learn outdoor skills. And this incarnation of CF focuses strongly on supporting kids, teaching them acceptance, conflict resolution, and other sorts of skills.
Since it's been co-ed for a long time, there's a good chance that trans kids would be accepted easily. There still might be some practical problems, as discussed upthread, like sleeping arrangements. But it might be worth looking into.
FWIW, YMMV.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
*decloak*
*shakes off cobwebs*
Just for the record, best estimates from ten years ago are that 1% of the population is gender variant to some degree. Current thinking in the trans community is that "to some degree" is closer to "quite a lot" - so it's not at all unlikely that any reasonable sized group of kids will include trans children.
*shimmers away*
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Or wait, patiently, trying not to put your foot in something which will offend someone. Which I might be doing, but I am not one to think rushing to confirm gender identity that doesn't match biological identity is a good idea.
Transgender kids, have we gone too far?
quote:
What happens when your son tells you he’s really a girl?
Twenty years ago, you probably would have crossed your fingers and tried to wait it out. Today, you might buy him a whole new wardrobe, find someone to prescribe hormone blockers, and help him live as a girl....
About three-quarters of little kids who have issues with their gender...will be comfortable with it by adolescence...[take] a watch-and-wait approach. He even advises parents of princessy six-year-olds to say, “You’re not a girl. You’re a boy.”
It goes on to say that gender issues may mask other family dysfunction and mental health problems. The article I linked quotes some people who apparently know what they are talking about.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
Just for the record, best estimates from ten years ago are that 1% of the population is gender variant to some degree. Current thinking in the trans community is that "to some degree" is closer to "quite a lot" - so it's not at all unlikely that any reasonable sized group of kids will include trans children.
This is problematic for a number of reasons. Communities often have an echo-chamber effect.
Cultural expectation muddles the issue.
And the data is not mature enough yet.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
There was a recent programme looking at children who were identifying as transgender which found that most children didn't transition, and a number of those who did weren't happy with their new body. Wait and see seems to be quite general on this.
I wonder if some of what we are seeing is a reaction to the very gendered pink girls' toys and blue boys toys marketing schtick.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
That Globe and Mail article and that BBC documentary draw on people whose work is extremely controversial in the transgender community - scholars who'd be regarded as transphobic and as having an axe to grind. I don't have the time and bandwidth to go into the subject in detail, I'm just noting in passing that those links should not be seen as uncontroversial and I don't want any lurkers from the communities involved to feel unwelcome here or to think that no-one realises that.
[ 02. March 2017, 01:14: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Ah nostalgia...
"It's only a phase you're going through."
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
That Globe and Mail article and that BBC documentary draw on people whose work is extremely controversial in the transgender community
Bits like this quote:
He even advises parents of princessy six-year-olds to say, “You’re not a girl. You’re a boy
seem odious to me. A dismissive attitude is going to do no good.
However, being a little cautious on hormone replacement and surgery seem to be sensible.
I would appreciate any information so to better understand.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
*decloak*
*shakes off cobwebs*
Just for the record, best estimates from ten years ago are that 1% of the population is gender variant to some degree. Current thinking in the trans community is that "to some degree" is closer to "quite a lot" - so it's not at all unlikely that any reasonable sized group of kids will include trans children.
*shimmers away*
The words "gender variant to some degree" seem very vague to me, possibly deliberately so. It may well be that they are so wide so as to catch as many people as possible. Until recent years, figures more along the line of 1 in 10,000 have been quoted. Efforts to find more recent and accurate figures for here have given next to no data at all - perhaps an indication of my search skills more than anything else. The impression I have from years gone by is that this very low figure pretty well matched what you'd hear of. But there are all sorts of problems with that also. - where I live, who I mix with, fear of disclosure to start with.
The doctor quoted in the article did not sound transphobic to me. Using that sort of label for him does not really take matters far. Perhaps those who use that label of him and others are in fact pushing ther own barrow and don't like any opposition.
I don't know of other jurisdictions, but the procedures here to transition are very strict. You can't just show up at a hospital and book yourself in for hormone therapy, let alone the operation. There is a lengthy period in which you have to live as the proposed new gender and other hoops to be gone though. This procedure is even more rigourous for minors, where permission must be obtained from (IIRC) the Family Court, just as for sterilisation/hysterectomies. Shpuld they be loosened?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
*decloak*
*shakes off cobwebs*
Just for the record, best estimates from ten years ago are that 1% of the population is gender variant to some degree. Current thinking in the trans community is that "to some degree" is closer to "quite a lot" - so it's not at all unlikely that any reasonable sized group of kids will include trans children.
*shimmers away*
And a warm welcome back from me. Good to see you posting again, for however long you wish to decloak and shake off your posting cobwebs.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
Is there any evidence as to whether children report feelings of gender dysphoria at the same rate across all cultures, or whether it varies depending on the cultural attitudes towards gender?
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag
The article I linked quotes some people who apparently know what they are talking about.
They don't. Zucker and Dreger are discredited and the overwhelming majority of professionals working in the field disagree with them, indeed Zucker's clinic was closed because his methods are now considered abusive.
[ 02. March 2017, 17:23: Message edited by: GreyFace ]
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
If anyone is genuinely interested, the press release from Trans Media Watch on the BBC programme is thorough.
A brief primer: there is a significant difference between kids who identify as trans and those who merely exhibit some gender-variant behaviour, and children don't get cross-sex hormones or surgery.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
That Globe and Mail article and that BBC documentary draw on people whose work is extremely controversial in the transgender community
Bits like this quote:
He even advises parents of princessy six-year-olds to say, “You’re not a girl. You’re a boy
seem odious to me. A dismissive attitude is going to do no good.
However, being a little cautious on hormone replacement and surgery seem to be sensible.
I would appreciate any information so to better understand.
It's not dismissive to parent your children. They say and do all sorts of things. A child of 6 will have the definition and understanding of male and female and that these are different types of humanity, among others, but hardly has the cognitive, emotional, social and developmental maturity to propose they are misidentified. It's one of those "I see a dragon" types of things, where, it is certainly possible that the child is transgendered, but it is also possible that they've been influenced (the internet and Dr Google and other media), or had the thing passed along to them via some interactions with peers and others. I'd say that it isn't dismissive, it is good parenting to correct the child, just as I would correct a child who informed me of any other extraordinary thing that requires extraordinary evidence to know it is true, like "I see a dragon". Scepticism but open, but scepticism first.
I feel that the reach down to young children, to have them think they must identify and firm up identity at pre-adolescent ages is inappropriate. No problem with experimenting with some things, but it is not okay to encourage and support trans identification with a child whose just begun school, rather the attitude should be sceptical as I've suggested, with many questions posed.
It doesn't matter that the "trans community" might not like this, it isn't their children, and they are not children in making their objections. On the other side, it isn't okay to reject after experience and maturation into adolescence that an alternative identity has solidified.
I wonder if anyone understands developmental psychology any longer? The placement of the "identity crisis" within adolescence seems rather obvious to me, that we expect this time period to be one of questions, consideration of alternatives and coming to an adult life structure. I am comfortable with societal development having moved this to slightly earlier years, perhaps down to about age 12, but certainly not into the single digits of age.
Finally, I would note that Family Courts generally don't think children have the ability to choose which parental household to live in after divorce until age 13 or 15, depending on maturity and assuredness of independence of decision. While whom to live with isn't the same as a gender identity, the wisdom of a court to not accept a child's decisions as independent and mature recognizes the developmental level and when we understand from data that children are ready to make decisions.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
I'm trans and I'm finding the conversation difficult, so I'm going to turn on the cloaking device again. I'd urge everyone here who's expressed concern at trans children being affirmed to do some research with reputable specialists into outcomes rather than express armchair opinions, because there are studies that show 30-40% of trans people attempt suicide and affirmation helps that enormously. It's not an abstract discussion, it's life and death.
Bye all.
*recloaks*
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
It doesn't matter that the "trans community" might not like this, it isn't their children, and they are not children in making their objections. On the other side, it isn't okay to reject after experience and maturation into adolescence that an alternative identity has solidified.
Sometimes people 'might not like' something because the science behind it is actually bad as well as it coming to offensive conclusions - remember the doctors who used to tout reparative therapy for gay people?
No Prophet, you posted an article which put forward Kenneth Zucker as an expert. Greyface has posted a link to a very detailed document which says Zucker is really questionable - are you going to acknowledge that and engage with it? Are there reputable scientists who support your point of view? Can you link to their peer reviewed work?
The other person in the article you posted is Alice Dreger who has written fascinating intersex history but who has backed someone ( J Michael Bailey) who has a really bonkers theory about transgender identity which isn't accepted by other scholars - autogynephilia Do you contend that this theory is reputable? If not, why do you think we should accept Alice Dreger's work on transgender issues?
[ 02. March 2017, 20:28: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
Also GreyFace, you know what is best for your own self-care, and I'm sorry you feel you can't post. I've appreciated your contribution and you're absolutely right to point out how important this is.
Thanks very much for engaging on this thread.
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
Greyface, I was glad to welcome you back on the AS thread for such things. I am sad to see your cloak has been put on again, and am sad to see you felt you needed to do this. Go well.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Zucker appears to be an evidence-based researcher. On the science side. Wikipedia provides a summary of his professional and academic activities.
quote:
According to the Web of Science, Zucker has published almost 100 articles in peer-reviewed journals. These articles have been cited over 2000 times, with an h-index of 20.
I don't think we can ignore him. The link posted is a complaint and doesn't frame research or reasoned argument, it frames hurt and disagreement. I am not insensitive to hurt and pain, but I do not think adult advocates, whose lived adult experience represents what we should do with children, even if an adult tells us that he/she always knew, even when young that they were trans. That's a testimonial, and another could easily say that they thought they were another gender for a while when a child, and then were something else. It's part of child play and fantasy to do so.
If you read what I wrote, I asserting that it is inappropriate to go with what a preadolescent child might think about their gender identity, and many other things as well. We do not expect children to solidify such things at, in the example, 6 years of age.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
Zucker's friend the late Robert L Spitzer who championed the efficacy of reparative therapy for gay people (therapy to change their sexual orientation to straight) weighs in at 2,254 citations on web of science - and published at least 231 articles, if I read the figure correctly. (I don't know how to get the h number for a dead person, I'm a historian I'm not used to doing this).
Yet Spitzer was still eventually found out to be wrong about reparative therapy and in the end admitted his error. People used the same kind of attacks against gay people who spoke up against him - sorry for their pain and suffering, but Professor Spitzer says X and he is so eminent... Even on this board you can go back and find people citing him against people who actually tried to change their orientation and suffered as a result. He got away with it for decades.
Zucker started practicing in the 1970s when there were some horrific ideas about the malleability of children and gender about - such as those espoused by John Money, and he's since been called out for practicing the last 'respectable' form of reparative therapy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria_in_children#Opponents
quote:
The consensus of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health is that treatment aimed at trying to change a person's gender identity and expression to become more congruent with sex assigned at birth "is no longer considered ethical."[4] Clinicians have called Zucker and Bradley's therapeutic intervention "something disturbingly close to reparative therapy for homosexuals" [32] and have noted that the goal is preventing transsexualism: "Reparative therapy is believed to reduce the chances of adult GID (i.e., transsexualism) which Zucker and Bradley characterize as undesirable."[33] ... However, strong critiques of Dr. Zucker's approach do not come from lay activists and journalists alone, but also from psychiatrists and psychologists within his own field. Edgardo Menvielle, a child-adolescent psychiatrist at the Children's National Medical Center in Washington states, "Therapists who advocate changing gender variant behaviours should be avoided."[36] Developmental and clinical psychologist Diane Ehrensaft told the Psychiatric Times, "The mental health profession has been consistently doing harm to children who are not 'gender normal,' and they need to retrain,"[37]
Critics argue GIDC was a backdoor maneuver to replace homosexuality in the DSM, and Zucker and Robert Spitzer counter that GIDC inclusion was based on "expert consensus," which is "the same mechanism that led to the introduction of many new psychiatric diagnoses, including those for which systematic field trials were not available when the DSM-III was published."[38]
If Zucker is correct, and not an academic titan from another time when this sort of thing was more accepted, you'd expect more modern scientists in the same field to be upholding his conclusions, where are they? Why are they instead saying that he shouldn't be running a clinic and that the kind of therapy he advocates should be avoided and people should retrain?
By the way, Alice Dreger is a historian not a scientist - like me she has a history PhD and she has for her research written some outstanding work on the history of intersex but that doesn't make her an expert on the science of transgender issues in children.
Where are the modern studies by people who are not Zucker which show he is on the right lines and not the last dinosaur of reparative therapy?
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Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I apologise for sounding negative about transgender people earlier. I found the documentary about transgender children fascinating because it is so much in the news at the moment and because one of my daughter's friends transgendered when s/he was still a teenager. I got to be the responsible adult taking both this friend and my daughter to a range of places for a while as her family wouldn't.
I also got very cross with fellow pre-school workers who were judgemental in their attitudes and words when we had one little boy who loved dressing up in the pink tutu.
I found Zucker in the documentary not as interesting as the expert (psychologist?) who was trans themselves, and the statistics quoted of how few of the children who identified as transgender as children, then went on to fully transition when they were old enough. 80% desist according to the New Statesmen article.
It feels to me as if trying to push people into little boxes labelled different genders is not allowing people to be themselves in whatever way they feel comfortable and continues to be damaging, be they gay, trans, wanting to do things that are out of the stereotypical gender descriptions. But what do I know as the parent of a female engineer?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I agree with that CK.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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marsupial.
Shipmate
# 12458
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Posted
Children's Hospital in Washington DC used to (and I assume still does) have a clinic for gender nonconforming children with a helpful website on the issues. I remember they said that relatively speaking only a fairly small number of their clients ultimately sought re-assignment but that nevertheless they believed that a gender-affirming approach to gender nonconforming kids was the best approach from the point of view of their clients' mental health regardless of where they ultimately landed in terms of public gender identification. Part of the reason for this, I suspect, is that we're coming to realize that transgender isn't all or nothing. So just because someone doesn't ultimately transition doesn't mean they're 100% cisgender. The point is to give gender-nonconforming kids a safe space to figure out who they are.
Posts: 653 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2007
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
Thanks, GreyFace.
I was going to respond with anecdata about the trans girls I know personally, and was trying to construct a reply that was sufficiently clear without the possibility of infringing their privacy (it would be difficult to discover my RL identity and then infer the identities of my young friends, but...) but your post has covered everything. The experience of my young friends is completely consistent with the document produced by Trans Media Watch.
"Wait and see" is more or less the approach in children. The use of puberty blockers is exactly "wait and see". Let's use the example of a young trans girl. Here is an XY person with a penis, who consistently says that she wants to be a girl, not a boy. Everybody agrees that taking her to the surgeon is not on the cards. So what does "wait and see" look like?
No prophet, I think, would argue that it means do nothing. I would argue that puberty blockers are entirely appropriate. 'cause if you really do have a person who is going to remain certain that she's really a girl, I'd imagine that going through boy-puberty would be a pretty traumatic experience, and would in fact be you making the decision that the should just be a boy by default.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
I'm trans and I'm finding the conversation difficult, so I'm going to turn on the cloaking device again. I'd urge everyone here who's expressed concern at trans children being affirmed to do some research with reputable specialists into outcomes rather than express armchair opinions, because there are studies that show 30-40% of trans people attempt suicide and affirmation helps that enormously. It's not an abstract discussion, it's life and death.
Bye all.
*recloaks*
I apologise for making you feel uncomfortable and am sorry to see you leave.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
80% desist according to the New Statesmen article.
This critique of Sarah Dittum, the author of that article, is interesting.
marsupial.:
People should be allowed to feel comfortable exploring who they are. It is not a strong suit of humanity, though. We like to know where people stand in whatever category discussed and we feel threatened by that we do not understand.
That is why I do not feel these discussions are academic. Those who care need the language and knowledge to engage those who might be brought to understanding, and therefore be supportive.
[ 03. March 2017, 03:51: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
It feels to me as if trying to push people into little boxes labelled different genders is not allowing people to be themselves in whatever way they feel comfortable and continues to be damaging, be they gay, trans, wanting to do things that are out of the stereotypical gender descriptions. But what do I know as the parent of a female engineer?
That's kind of my instinctive feeling about "gender", as well. I know what sex is, but I'm not even sure that gender exists, exactly. (And I know several boys who like pink, and tutus, but are also definitely boys (and have what seems to be the typical small-boy love affair with their penes.))
But then I listen to what trans people say, and what they say is that being a trans woman is not at all like being a girly or effeminate man. And they are quite sure that gender exists, and that they were born with a body that doesn't match.
And the starting point for any discussion has to be that trans people aren't lying or making it up when they describe their feelings. I don't think I understand what it means to think in the way that trans people describe, but that doesn't mean that they're making it up.
Perhaps some would say that I was hopelessly cisgender for being unable to understand what they mean, and for not being sure that gender exists, and perhaps they're right. I'm not very traditionally-masculine, but as we've been saying, that's different from whatever transgender is.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
I am also a cisgendered male and therefore quite possibly not in a position to understand, but I'd like to solicit responses to an idea I've been pondering.
It seems to me that none of us can know our gender identity in an objective way, apart from reference to the culture we experience around us. As far as I can figure, I can only determine how much I identify with (or counter to) culturally defined norms for both genders as I perceive them. I have trouble seeing how I could possibly identify myself as male gender or female gender any other way. So while I understand transgender identity in today's culture[s], I also wonder whether achieving a culture where the norms are no different for males and females would have any effect on transgender identification.
And yet I have a feeling I'm missing something, and if I am, I'm hoping someone can point it out to me.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I'm not very traditionally-masculine, but as we've been saying, that's different from whatever transgender is.
I tend to think of that as a person's yin-yang balance. Some people need to be more yin/feminine, in terms of whatever that is for their culture. Some need to be yang/masculine. And some need to be balanced between the two. That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the direction of their sexual attraction.
FWIW.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I know what sex is, but I'm not even sure that gender exists, exactly. (And I know several boys who like pink, and tutus, but are also definitely boys (and have what seems to be the typical small-boy love affair with their penes.))
I think a lot of the problem is down to the ridiculously gendered way society decides which activities are "appropriate" for which children. My 3-year-old nephew wanted a dolly for his birthday, so we bought him one, but there are plenty of people out there who would say that a boy shouldn't play with dollies because they're for girls. It's easy to see how that sort of attitude could lead a young boy to conclude that he wants to be a girl (or vice versa, of course).
If only society could get over this ridiculous idea that some toys/activities/clothes/etc are inherently male or female then it would enable us to focus support towards those who genuinely identify as trans, as GreyFace indicated here:
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
there is a significant difference between kids who identify as trans and those who merely exhibit some gender-variant behaviour
To put it another way, using the ridiculously gendered societal approach to children's activities etc. to classify kids who exhibit some gender-variant behaviour alongside those who genuinely identify as trans will inevitably lead to the observation that many "trans" kids never actually transition. That's a shoddy conclusion based on shoddy research, and for it to be used to effectively deny the appropriate support to genuinely trans kids is just wrong.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Yep. I wanted to be a boy as a child. I looked around at boys and men, saw all their advantages and wanted to be one. Plus I never played with a doll in my life, but I still have my box of matchbox cars.
When I reached puberty I was attracted only to boys and my gay girlfriend couldn't persuade me into any lesbian romps - so I concluded I'm heterosexual.
But my wish to be a boy was real (and understandable imo) even 'tho - in those days - there were not huge supermarket aisles of pink 'girls toys' around.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by marsupial.:
Children's Hospital in Washington DC used to (and I assume still does) have a clinic for gender nonconforming children with a helpful website on the issues. I remember they said that relatively speaking only a fairly small number of their clients ultimately sought re-assignment but that nevertheless they believed that a gender-affirming approach to gender nonconforming kids was the best approach from the point of view of their clients' mental health regardless of where they ultimately landed in terms of public gender identification. Part of the reason for this, I suspect, is that we're coming to realize that transgender isn't all or nothing. So just because someone doesn't ultimately transition doesn't mean they're 100% cisgender. The point is to give gender-nonconforming kids a safe space to figure out who they are.
Excellent post. I shudder when I read about people who want to stop children's wish to be a different gender/sex. The results could be catastrophic.
It just sounds like an ideological insistence that sex and gender are binary. Not so.
I'm still complaining about the use of gender to refer to sex identity, but it's too late now. But if 'gender' is used to refer to sex, what term will be used to refer to gender, as it used to be described, i.e. cultural traits?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Yep. I wanted to be a boy as a child. I looked around at boys and men, saw all their advantages and wanted to be one. Plus I never played with a doll in my life, but I still have my box of matchbox cars.
When I reached puberty I was attracted only to boys and my gay girlfriend couldn't persuade me into any lesbian romps - so I concluded I'm heterosexual.
But my wish to be a boy was real (and understandable imo) even 'tho - in those days - there were not huge supermarket aisles of pink 'girls toys' around.
My daughter is much the same. I think there's a distinction between (as in her case) wanting to be a boy, and feeling you actually are one. She wants to be able to widdle standing up and wear her hair short (quite rare in young girls) and almost never wears skirts or dresses, and often says she wishes she were a boy, but she never says she thinks she actually is one. So for that reason I see her (and I think, more importantly, she sees herself) as a girl who likes lots of things that "traditionally" are associated with boys, but she is still a cis-gendered girl.
Compare that with a friend of my cousins' who feels she actually is a boy and is now living as one, including a change of name.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, plenty of kids experiment with gender (in the traditional sense), but not with sex identity. In fact, the tomboy is widely accepted, I suppose boys with a feminine streak less so.
I don't know whether the girl who says 'I am a boy' is responding to differences in sex identity, biologically defined, or not.
But these are cases where the distinction between sex and gender seems useful, although, obviously, not everybody agrees with that.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
(I'm skipping the stuff about Zucker — he was fired for being abusive to children, so I don't think he's worthy of consideration.)
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
It doesn't matter that the "trans community" might not like this, it isn't their children, and they are not children in making their objections.
No, but most of us have been there. We remember what it was like to not have supportive adults around us. For lots of us, it caused lasting damage.
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
So while I understand transgender identity in today's culture[s], I also wonder whether achieving a culture where the norms are no different for males and females would have any effect on transgender identification.
And yet I have a feeling I'm missing something, and if I am, I'm hoping someone can point it out to me.
I don't have all the answers, and I do think cultural norms are part of the story. But you may be missing taking into account dysphoria. It's a profound feeling that your body is wrong. That's not the same thing as "I wish society would allow me to wear that dress". It's more like a bout of nausea if you see yourself naked in a mirror.
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
"Wait and see" is more or less the approach in children. The use of puberty blockers is exactly "wait and see".
Yup. Blockers are 100% reversible — stop taking them and they wear off. I think it's inhumane not to give them, if a kid is consistently either questioning or sure that they're trans.
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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