homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Special interest discussion   » Dead Horses   » Cub & Boy Scouts To Allow Trans Kids To Join (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Cub & Boy Scouts To Allow Trans Kids To Join
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Nobody is suggesting that males and females become the same in terms of gender, are they? (Gender as cultural traits). I don't see the trans movement as advocating that we all wear Mao suits and shaven heads.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I'm not very traditionally-masculine, but as we've been saying, that's different from whatever transgender is.

I tend to think of that as a person's yin-yang balance. Some people need to be more yin/feminine, in terms of whatever that is for their culture. Some need to be yang/masculine. And some need to be balanced between the two. That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the direction of their sexual attraction.
But that's a third thing.

1. Sexuality. What kinds of people you are attracted to.

2. Cultural gender mores. Do you enjoy activities / behave in ways that your culture assigns to people of your sex, or not?

3. Trans. Gender dysphoria. Your body is wrong, etc.

These are three different things, and whilst there might be correlations between them when you look at whole populations, an individual person needn't show those correlations.

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Nobody is suggesting that males and females become the same in terms of gender, are they? (Gender as cultural traits). I don't see the trans movement as advocating that we all wear Mao suits and shaven heads.

Some schools of feminist thought have been suggesting exactly that. Get rid of the cultural patriarchal dominance and enforced gender norms, and people become free to be people. Men and women can take on any role, unfettered by their sex.

But while these feminists are busy saying that - that differences between the sexes are impositions of a patriarchal society, and that the "separate-but-equal" notions of complementarity are just raw sexism wearing a velvet glove, trans people come along and throw a spanner in their works by saying that gender differences are real and important, and they want to be the other kind.

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858

 - Posted      Profile for Erroneous Monk   Email Erroneous Monk   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Is gender necessarily fixed and is it necessarily an either/or?

[ 03. March 2017, 13:32: Message edited by: Erroneous Monk ]

--------------------
And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Nobody is suggesting that males and females become the same in terms of gender, are they? (Gender as cultural traits). I don't see the trans movement as advocating that we all wear Mao suits and shaven heads.

Some schools of feminist thought have been suggesting exactly that. Get rid of the cultural patriarchal dominance and enforced gender norms, and people become free to be people. Men and women can take on any role, unfettered by their sex.

But while these feminists are busy saying that - that differences between the sexes are impositions of a patriarchal society, and that the "separate-but-equal" notions of complementarity are just raw sexism wearing a velvet glove, trans people come along and throw a spanner in their works by saying that gender differences are real and important, and they want to be the other kind.

Well, I mean that the trans movement isn't saying that. I know that some radical feminists have been advocating a kind of ground zero on both sex and gender.

Yes, trans people are not advocating that, but are traversing various gender and sex rules, not trying to get rid of them, although again some radicals might be.

I get it that gender is a set of cultural norms, which are probably partly determined by patriarchal values, but to take that back to sex identity is quite a stretch. You can argue of course that 'it's a boy' and 'it's a girl' (of babies) triggers a whole constellation of expectations and whatnot, but I don't anticipate babies being acclaimed with 'it's a non-sexed non-gendered being' anytime soon. People like sex, and like sex differences, don't they? And also gender differences.

I think de Beauvoir had argued that a female person need not be a woman, but I suppose the radicals would deconstruct 'female person'.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I recall the initial discussions of the differences between gender and sex (sex as in label of male and female) in the 1970s and early 80s, with the idea that gender identification was on a continuum between male and female. This was a concept and a theory, which has gone on to replace the categorical model that it is a binary male-female world. before that idea of gender versus sex became popular, these discussions weren't possible. But it isn't either categorical nor a continuum, and it is also both at once. I believe we lack the language to deal with the two disparate models in an integrated manner. The biological sex aspect is easier to deal with categorically than the aspects that are contained in the mind, feelings and as derived from social relations.

[tangent]
It is apparent that some of this is personal to some people on the ship; while not intending to offend, I am also not censoring my discussion of these issues, and it isn't intended as personal. This is a discussion of issues and ideas isn't it? Not a counselling or support forum.
[/tangent]

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Is gender necessarily fixed and is it necessarily an either/or?

Again, it depends on what you mean by gender. I am old-fashioned, and worked in gender studies at a time when sex and gender were differentiated. Then of course, gender, denoting cultural traits, is highly variable, and non-binary. A male can be as masculine or feminine as he wants, although he may attract disapproval.

The arguments amongst feminists have also been about sex identity (male/female), and the radicals have argued that this itself is socially constructed. Well there are strong arguments now that sex identity is non-binary, hence intersex, and other variations.

I'm not all that sure how trans people fit into these distinctions. We know that a male can be feminine, hence he can shift gender, but can he also claim to be female? Probably, but here you get arguments that 'female' is not simply biological but also cultural, psychological, and so on.

It looks as if a big shift is going on.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250

 - Posted      Profile for W Hyatt   Email W Hyatt   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
So while I understand transgender identity in today's culture[s], I also wonder whether achieving a culture where the norms are no different for males and females would have any effect on transgender identification.

And yet I have a feeling I'm missing something, and if I am, I'm hoping someone can point it out to me.

I don't have all the answers, and I do think cultural norms are part of the story. But you may be missing taking into account dysphoria. It's a profound feeling that your body is wrong. That's not the same thing as "I wish society would allow me to wear that dress". It's more like a bout of nausea if you see yourself naked in a mirror.
That makes sense - thank you.

--------------------
A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.

Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well there are strong arguments now that sex identity is non-binary, hence intersex, and other variations.

What is "sex identity"? I understand what biological sex is. Most people are either male (XY, male genitals,...) or female (XX, female genitals,...), but a small number of people have one of the intersex conditions. Traditionally, these people have been socially assigned a sex that comes closest to their external presentation, but that doesn't alter the biology. Assigning male or female sex to an intersex person is a social statement, not a biological one.

This is completely different from saying that sex is a spectrum. What we have is a binary division, with some exceptions.

I think everyone agrees that cultural masculinity / femininity is a continuous spectrum, and not necessarily stable over time.

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well there are strong arguments now that sex identity is non-binary, hence intersex, and other variations.

What is "sex identity"? I understand what biological sex is. Most people are either male (XY, male genitals,...) or female (XX, female genitals,...), but a small number of people have one of the intersex conditions. Traditionally, these people have been socially assigned a sex that comes closest to their external presentation, but that doesn't alter the biology. Assigning male or female sex to an intersex person is a social statement, not a biological one.

This is completely different from saying that sex is a spectrum. What we have is a binary division, with some exceptions.

I think everyone agrees that cultural masculinity / femininity is a continuous spectrum, and not necessarily stable over time.

Well, I was avoiding 'biological sex' as it's often used by transphobic people, to say, for example, that John is 'really' a boy, even though he wants to be, or claims that he is, a girl.

'Sex identity' is more neutral. Also, some of the radicals argue that biological sex is not some inert category that humans find lying around, but is itself socially constructed.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, I was avoiding 'biological sex' as it's often used by transphobic people, to say, for example, that John is 'really' a boy, even though he wants to be, or claims that he is, a girl.

'Sex identity' is more neutral.

But also unclear, because you're conflating different things (or at least, things that might be different.)

We understand, more or less, how the biology works in intersex people. It is not true to say that an intersex person is biologically male, and it is not true to say that they are biologically female.

Trans men, on the other hand, are biologically female, given our current understanding of biology. They have XX chromosomes, ovaries, uteruses, and can bear children (unless they've had surgery to remove some of those parts).

Our current understanding of biology is not complete. There are studies suggesting a biological etiology for transgenderism, although what we have now is basically correlations rather than mechanisms. And we can't look at a transgender person and see that they are trans - the only way we find out is when we are told.

Given our current biological understanding, this places transgender in a different category from intersex. It is possible that transgenderism is a different manifestation of an intersex condition, and that biological advances will allow us to identify the causes and mechanisms in an objective way (ie. without having to ask the trans person how they think / feel), in which case we could consider them in the same category. That's not where we are now.

quote:

Also, some of the radicals argue that biological sex is not some inert category that humans find lying around, but is itself socially constructed.

This is woolly-headed, and likely caused by people conflating biological language with social language.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well, as I said, I try to avoid citing biological sex as I've seen so many occasions where it's used to denigrate trans people. Of course, it's not always possible to avoid it, as in this post.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Also, some of the radicals argue that biological sex is not some inert category that humans find lying around, but is itself socially constructed.

Interesting. Never had a tongue in my social construct. My primary biological sexual characteristic is another matter.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Also, some of the radicals argue that biological sex is not some inert category that humans find lying around, but is itself socially constructed.

Interesting. Never had a tongue in my social construct. My primary biological sexual characteristic is another matter.
Very cute, as you would say. I think that transphobic people tend to weaponize biological sex, so that they can say, no, John's not a girl, he's got a penis.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think that transphobic people tend to weaponize biological sex, so that they can say, no, John's not a girl, he's got a penis.

If we change definitions or words to communicate more effectively, that is good. If we do it in response to hate, then we are allowing the haters to dominate the conversation. And that is bad.
The correct response is, IMO, "John is a girl with a penis".

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think that transphobic people tend to weaponize biological sex, so that they can say, no, John's not a girl, he's got a penis.

If we change definitions or words to communicate more effectively, that is good. If we do it in response to hate, then we are allowing the haters to dominate the conversation. And that is bad.
The correct response is, IMO, "John is a girl with a penis".

I think the idea of biological sex as a social construct predates all the discussions about trans people. But undoubtedly, it has intensified it.

I don't really know when feminists first began to discuss this, possibly de Beauvoir said something about it. But she is famous for saying that one becomes a woman, which is rather different. (1949?). Another major figure is Judith Butler, but a lot later.

It would be interesting to have a thread on this, rather than hijacking the scouts.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
"Sexual difference ... is never simply a function of material differences which are not in some way both marked and formed by discursive practices".

Butler, 'Bodies that Matter'.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

The correct response is, IMO, "John is a girl with a penis".

That is agreeable sometimes. Not always. If this is a 7 year old, then it is "John's a boy, and is pretending/play with the idea of/uncertain of being female", and we would have to know many other factors in his life before we should move in a direction of confirming by our interactions that the identity is confirmed.

I had a discussion with a 13 year old recently where I was told they were "gender fluid". With non-directive discussion and not leading questioning indicated that this was something under discussion within the GSA (gay-straight alliance) at school, and the person was considering the idea. It was much better to not confirm anything in this discourse and to be open to disconfirmation or confirmation. I fully admit that my bias is disconfirmation when the person has limited life experience. We should not support other than there are things to explore is such situations.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think that transphobic people tend to weaponize biological sex, so that they can say, no, John's not a girl, he's got a penis.

Biological sex and sex/gender identity mean different things. They are conceptually different. But we tend to use all the same words for both, which leads to confusion, much of which is deliberate.

So on the one hand, we have people who argue as you describe here - that sex/gender identity is not separable from sex, and that, for example, a trans girl is "really" a confused boy.

On the other hand, we have people who argue that sex/gender identity is primary, and biological sex is irrelevant, leading to discussions that go like this:

A: "So a trans woman is a woman with a man's body?"

B: "No, it's a woman's body, because she's a woman, and it's her body."

Which while being affirming of the trans woman isn't really all that helpful to a discussion where the distinctions are important.

In the case of an intersex person, their biological sex is neither male nor female. Their gender identity could be male or female, or might not be. If you conflate biological sex and sex/gender identity, you don't have the language to talk about an intersex woman. Because she doesn't have ambiguous gender identity: she fits perfectly well into binary gender, but her body doesn't fit into a binary classification of sex. Whereas a non-binary/genderqueer person might not fit into a male/female gender classification, but has a standard male, or standard female, body.

Socially, the biological language isn't important, because in polite company one does not pry into someone else's bodily details.

ETA: And I still don't know whether gender actually exists.

[ 03. March 2017, 18:54: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That's an interesting point that normally we don't scrutinize genitals, or in fact, bodies, to ascertain sex identity. It used to be said that 'secondary characteristics' are used to infer this, but I suppose also stuff such as hair, clothes, make-up, gait, and so on.

It's as if some gender traits are a gateway to sex ascription. One of Butler's ideas is that gender is a performance, intended to convey aspects of identity.

I suppose trans people elicit fear and loathing, as a cherished binary is being blurred. Although I realize that some Christians see male/female as created by God, presumably not to be tampered with. Honi soit qui mal y pense. Shame on him who thinks ill of it.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

 - Posted      Profile for Soror Magna   Email Soror Magna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
... If this is a 7 year old, then it is "John's a boy, and is pretending/play with the idea of/uncertain of being female", and we would have to know many other factors in his life before we should move in a direction of confirming by our interactions that the identity is confirmed. ....

I think if John continues to present as a girl* despite being beaten up repeatedly or disciplined at school or subjected to exorcism, or all sorts of other shit, we should take her word for it. I'm also somewhat bothered by the idea that other people's reactions "confirm" (or, presumably, can deny) a child's gender identity. Is there a magic age when we stop debating and accept trans kids as they are?


---
*Sorry, it's Friday and I can't think of a better phrase for expressing gender identity

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Is there a magic age when we stop debating and accept trans kids as they are?

Sometime after the Anthropocene.
We suck, perhaps we'll evolve into something that doesn't.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Can I in advance apologise if a phrase I use offends - it's not intended as offensive, but used from ignorance.

I can sort of understand transgender, probably as much as most who are not can. There was a recent article in the Guardian by a person who said that they did not identify as either male or female. I find that very hard to comprehend as apart from they did not say how they did identify (I am using them and they as that's what the author did).

Any comments please to assist.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
I think if John continues to present as a girl*

*Sorry, it's Friday and I can't think of a better phrase for expressing gender identity

I'm not convinced we need to change existing phrases. Add some, perhaps.
quote:

Is there a magic age when we stop debating and accept trans kids as they are?

On a less sarcastic note than my previous post, we should always accept. Though, no pressure in any direction. A serious question is what age hormone therapy and surgery, I think. Or I think I think.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Leorning Cniht:

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I'm not very traditionally-masculine, but as we've been saying, that's different from whatever transgender is.

I tend to think of that as a person's yin-yang balance. Some people need to be more yin/feminine, in terms of whatever that is for their culture. Some need to be yang/masculine. And some need to be balanced between the two. That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the direction of their sexual attraction.
But that's a third thing.

1. Sexuality. What kinds of people you are attracted to.

2. Cultural gender mores. Do you enjoy activities / behave in ways that your culture assigns to people of your sex, or not?

3. Trans. Gender dysphoria. Your body is wrong, etc.

These are three different things, and whilst there might be correlations between them when you look at whole populations, an individual person needn't show those correlations.

Ok, that's what I was trying to say, if I understand you correctly. You said "I'm not very traditionally-masculine", and someone upthread mentioned having a daughter who's an engineer. Those seem to fit in with my description of yin/yang balance, within cultural parameters.

I said it doesn't necessarily correlate with sexual attraction. And I'm adding that it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being trans.

Apologies if I put things clumsily. I'm trying to work through this and understand it, as I have for many years. Given my fundamentalist background; living in a very vanilla place in my childhood; being gay was Liberace, and Jack pretending to be gay on "Three's Company"; trans was Christine Jorgensen; and my having some bad experiences with LG people, I've come a long way. And vote for SSM twice.

Please excuse my learning/understanding/adjustment curve.
[Angel]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Transgender is different - my daughter's friend who transitioned could not deal with puberty, menstruation caused extreme distress. And lack of access to clothes of his choice. We went through our wardrobes at one point and gave up our more masculine clothes to help, as well as taking him out shopping.

(I don't find very feminine clothes practical, so when fashion goes too frou-frou will buy unisex or men's shirts and jumpers, trousers and shorts. That way I get shorts down to my knees and pockets in clothes. And I live in DM's in winter.)

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
marsupial.
Shipmate
# 12458

 - Posted      Profile for marsupial.     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

I can sort of understand transgender, probably as much as most who are not can. There was a recent article in the Guardian by a person who said that they did not identify as either male or female. I find that very hard to comprehend as apart from they did not say how they did identify (I am using them and they as that's what the author did).

Any comments please to assist.

No idea about the specifics here but as I said upthread there's growing recognition that transgender isn't necessarily all or nothing, probably because the processes by which gender identity is formed are not all-or-nothing either. So someone could be experiencing some degree of cross-sex gender identity without completely identifying cross-sex. (So neither male nor female the but elements of both.) But as you say it's difficult to understand exactly what they are saying without some more positive characterization of how they identify.
Posts: 653 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
... If this is a 7 year old, then it is "John's a boy, and is pretending/play with the idea of/uncertain of being female", and we would have to know many other factors in his life before we should move in a direction of confirming by our interactions that the identity is confirmed. ....

I think if John continues to present as a girl* despite being beaten up repeatedly or disciplined at school or subjected to exorcism, or all sorts of other shit, we should take her word for it. I'm also somewhat bothered by the idea that other people's reactions "confirm" (or, presumably, can deny) a child's gender identity. Is there a magic age when we stop debating and accept trans kids as they are?
The schools would not have any form of discipline for such things. Not allowed at all under school regulations and human rights. There are strict hands-off policies as well, with a requirement of students to report bullying they observe. Less in primary schools (grade 1-8 or 1-6, depending), but in high schools and junior high schools, gay-straight alliances and anti-racism is required.

Schools here are also converting the W.C.s (I don't know why we have the antiquated term "water closet" for toilets/washrooms) to generic, anyone may use. They are taking out male urinals. This isn't from my province but it's describes what we have.

quote:
students have the right to self-identify their gender and be addressed by the name and pronoun of their choice....students [may] dress in clothing and participate on the sports team that reflects their gender identity and expression.
Are your jurisdictions doing something else?

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A couple of relevant articles:

"Biology Teacher Expertly Smacks Down Transphobe Who Cited ‘Science’" (Huff Post).
Her answer is really good, and mentioned a cause I'd never heard of.

"Yelp Can Now Help You Find A Gender-Neutral Toilet" (Huff Post).

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thanks marsupial. They're the sort of lines I was thinking but I find it very hard to comprehend. They made no comment about still searching, rather saying that they identified as neither male or female with no expanding on that. The photo accompanying the article was a very posed one. Sorry, I can't find the article now to give a link.

As to the conversation Learning Cnight sets out - what a way to win friends and influence people! As bad as those who simply deny the right of transgender people to be.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772

 - Posted      Profile for Palimpsest   Email Palimpsest   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

If you read what I wrote, I asserting that it is inappropriate to go with what a preadolescent child might think about their gender identity, and many other things as well. We do not expect children to solidify such things at, in the example, 6 years of age.

So if a six year old male says that he is a boy do you tell him he is too young to be sure and should wait until he's a teenager?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
A couple of relevant articles:

"Biology Teacher Expertly Smacks Down Transphobe Who Cited ‘Science’" (Huff Post).
Her answer is really good, and mentioned a cause I'd never heard of.

"Yelp Can Now Help You Find A Gender-Neutral Toilet" (Huff Post).

That first link shows how bigots often use pseudo-science to denigrate trans people, and as an extra bonus, allude to mental illness also.

I suppose conservatives dread the neat boxes of sex/gender and sexuality being eroded, which is happening today in spades.

All these arguments do raise some interesting questions, e.g., is there such a thing as a 'natural woman' (or man), is there an essential womanhood (or manhood). Opinions vary.

An interesting point about causation - in the days when gays and lesbians were denigrated considerably, there was much attention paid to causation, but this has died down. I think trans people are at that early stage - the search for etiology can go alongside an attempt at pathologization.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
So if a six year old male says that he is a boy do you tell him he is too young to be sure and should wait until he's a teenager?

I think you mistyped - you meant perhaps the male child said he was a girl.

Perhaps you haven't been a parent? Parenting is far more that telling a child anything. You often can't get a child to eat their vegetables, get ready for school, not hit s sibling, let alone discuss such things. That's how adults talk to each other and to older children. Adults are incredibly quick to come to conclusions and be bossy.

Probably a discussion of gender and sex will come from reading a book together or because you've time together to discuss something which came up from friends or at school. It's hardly unreasonable for a 6 year old to wonder why they are the biological sex they are, and wonder why the other social gender gets to do things they don't. And to query the idea of being the other. The dominance of boys although their social skills are undeveloped as compared to girls is a very great social influence in the early school years.

Children are often working out at age 6 how other children see them, how they fit into a social hierarchy at school, and wonder about the way they are. They have been in the social context of family where they know the basic love and acceptance (we hope!), and then they go into a world of other children and adults, finding this sometimes challenging. We certainly shouldn't be jumping to confirm a desire to change gender in the midst of such development, unless it persists and seems to be significantly stable.

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No, the relevant question is about a young boy saying that he's a boy. Do we accept this at an early age? If so, why, when you've said that sex/gender ascription should not happen with young kids?

[ 05. March 2017, 14:28: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We accept it because it is normative. Usual.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
We accept it because it is normative. Usual.

But kids who are divergent are told to shut up, or comply with the norms? Well, there may be better ways to induce depression and suicidal thoughts in kids, but I can't recall any.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No. You are making things much more extreme than I state. We do not confirm everything 6 year olds want or say. Nor do we refute everything. There are probably rare 6 year olds on the planet who say they want to change gender, but we are not going to recommend parenting on that basis. I don't think other than a rare and frightening parent would want to push a child toward mental health problems. It is ridiculous to say a parent who doesn't confirm a 6 year old's floating of an idea as promoting suicide.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
There are probably rare 6 year olds on the planet who say they want to change gender,

I know one, as it happens. Not well enough to know all the ins and outs of her situation, but some. She's pretty definite about being a girl. She's 10 now.

It's uncommon, but not unheard-of.

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

 - Posted      Profile for Soror Magna   Email Soror Magna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I can remember telling people I would never have kids long before puberty. Through my entire life, everyone, including several of my doctors, told me I would change my mind. I didn't. Just because it's normal for women to have children doesn't mean a woman who doesn't want children is abnormal.

Of course kids have lots of fantastical ideas and love to experiment and shock the grown-ups. That doesn't mean they don't also have knowledge of who they really are.

There is a difference between "normal" and "common". Dark hair, skin and eyes are most common in the human race, but we don't consider blue eyes or red hair abnormal. We accept that the spectrum of pigmentation is simply natural diversity as a result of exposure to different environments. When it comes to sex, 99% of us are definitely not average - the average human having one ovary and one testicle, of course. [Biased]

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quetzalcoatl--

Re causation:

Well, the biology teacher's response mentioned a certain biochemical problem that can cause someone who's outwardly a girl to develop a penis at puberty.

I'd never heard of that particular condition. The teacher also mentioned androgen insensitivity as another possibility. That, I'd heard of.

I don't think that's "pathologizing" in the sense of "Oh, horrible, exile them from society, at least until we can fix them". But ISTM that whether you consider trans/intersex conditions to be bad, good, troublesome, or something the person just have to figure out how to live with, it may not be helpful to ignore causation--if only to help with other medical issues related to the underlying medical condition.

FWIW. YMMV.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
There are probably rare 6 year olds on the planet who say they want to change gender,

I know one, as it happens. Not well enough to know all the ins and outs of her situation, but some. She's pretty definite about being a girl. She's 10 now.

It's uncommon, but not unheard-of.

I think the point is that it is common for children to float many ideas and we mustn't be too quick to judge and hold them to conclusions when it mightn't be than an experiment. I also hold it is important to start from the ususal and normative because it is usual and normative. None of this means being rejecting either. There is a sceptical middle in here. There is no point in pretending that things outside if the norm are going to be smooth or easy.

Re the biology and related. The genetic arguements never have seen as intereting and persuasive as the various animals which change sex over the course of life. Like little barnacles with 8 inch penises to reach others, which may mature into female barnacles. Or some fish species which become the other biological sex if there are too many of their current one. Which of course says nothing about humanity and human values. But it might cause us to be less quick to judge and conclude.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772

 - Posted      Profile for Palimpsest   Email Palimpsest   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
No. You are making things much more extreme than I state. We do not confirm everything 6 year olds want or say. Nor do we refute everything. There are probably rare 6 year olds on the planet who say they want to change gender, but we are not going to recommend parenting on that basis. I don't think other than a rare and frightening parent would want to push a child toward mental health problems. It is ridiculous to say a parent who doesn't confirm a 6 year old's floating of an idea as promoting suicide.

No, I didn't mistype boy for girl.
They are uncommon but not rare. And they're self selecting... when they say they are the opposite sex, it's time to listen and not vehemently deny they are as not normal or they are too young to know. You might want to listen to some people who are transgender and have experienced your kind of denial of non-normative.

Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
They are very uncommon, if not rare - but that does not mean that their legitimate needs can be ignore. Societies as a whole should support their working out what is appropriate.

I don't think those physical instances set out really are what we're talking about. Isn't the topic those who appearing physically to be one sex (sex not gender) beileve that their true gender is the other?

[ 06. March 2017, 05:57: Message edited by: Gee D ]

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I think the point is that it is common for children to float many ideas and we mustn't be too quick to judge and hold them to conclusions when it mightn't be than an experiment.

And nobody is holding them to any conclusions. Nobody anywhere on the planet will do more than prescribe puberty blockers to under-16s, and that's a reversible choice.

quote:

I also hold it is important to start from the ususal and normative because it is usual and normative.

Norms are descriptive, not prescriptive. You seem to me to be rather too close to prescription.

I've known plenty of small boys who have enjoyed wearing pink skirts and mascara. These are all small boys with older sisters, and older siblings are often an aspirational role model. I haven't thought any of them were trans, and I suspect you will find no correlation at all between the boys who liked pink skirts and the ones that turn out to be gay.

This is both much more common than, and much different from, biological boys who say they are girls.

quote:
There is no point in pretending that things outside if the norm are going to be smooth or easy.
No, of course not. I don't think anyone pretends that. But that's not terribly relevant - trans kids are not deciding that they fancy being trans on a whim, and they're not going to respond to "You've got a biologically male body. Wouldn't you rather be a boy - it'll be a lot easier" by saying "Actually, you're right: it's less hassle that way. I'll be a boy instead."


quote:

Re the biology and related. The genetic arguements never have seen as intereting and persuasive as the various animals which change sex over the course of life.

You find data about humans less compelling that data about barnacles when it comes to thinking about transgender issues? I'm afraid I don't see how the life cycle of a barnacle is even vaguely relevant.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Another media storm, after Jenni Murray did an article saying that trans women are not real women. She has aroused the usual mix of opposition and support.

I do wonder what 'real women' means, and who is going to decide this? But I suppose some women feel a kind of appropriation is going on by trans women. It's noticeable that trans men don't seem to arouse the same anger. I don't mind if somebody wants to live as a man, nor be called a man, without the requisite tackle. Why would I?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/05/jenni-murray-transgender-not-real-women-sunday-times-magazine

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
How does the tablods' favourite object of ridicule from a couple of years ago, Rachel Dolezal, fit in to this?

(She has recently changed her name to Nkechi Amare Diallo.)

To recap, Ms. Diallo was born a white woman to white parents, but considers herself black. She darkens her skin, wears her hair in black styles, and so on. Since her origins were publicized, she has been called "transracial" and quite explicitly copies the language used by the trans community.

She attracted criticism from some black people for "playing" at being black, and not having been subject to the same racism as "real" black people growing up. Her alteration of her appearance has been described as "blackface" by some critics. It strikes me that the criticisms of her are rather similar to those used about trans women by Jenni Murray.

(The concerns seem centred in equity. Are we affording Ms. Diallo the benefits of diversity / minority access schemes that she hasn't "earned" by being the victim of structural racism growing up? Are trans women who grew up with the advantage of being treated by society as male taking a "real" woman's job?

That's why men don't care about trans men "taking their places" - there's no issue of equity in play. We don't ever attempt to compensate men for the disadvantages that their male state has given them.)

I don't think the cases are the same, but there are some parallels.

[ 06. March 2017, 14:36: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What parallels might those be?

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
You find data about humans less compelling that data about barnacles when it comes to thinking about transgender issues? I'm afraid I don't see how the life cycle of a barnacle is even vaguely relevant.

You miss the point. Sexuality isn't fixed in some animal species. It doesn't prescribe for humans, but it indicates that sexuality isn't necessarily as fixed as we might think biologically.

I am rather interested in biology. It would be interesting to hear the evolutionary arguments for transgender in humans. Or is this cultural? Where and what are the lines between the two.

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
For what it's worth, my son had life plans to grow up to be a lion when he was what, five? And I wasn't truly convinced of my species until I hit puberty at 12. (If I was going to be truthful, which I won't, I'd say I still am surprised when human-wide imperatives like menopause actually affect me.)

I think I'd be very careful neither to confirm nor deny anything a six-year-old says about identity. For me, it's usually "Hmmmmmmm, that's interesting" and no more.

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well, that's why the phrase 'insistent, consistent and persistent' is used about trans children, to distinguish a whim, from a serious and committed intent.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools