Ship of Fools: Depression is not a real mental illness, but a manifestation of the sin of pride.

Thread: Depression is not a real mental illness, but a manifestation of the sin of pride. Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=022049

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

So says Malcolm Bowden in this very short clip that made me so angey I wanted to scream.

4though.tv Is faith a remedy for depression?

Dear Mr Bowden,

I would always defend your right to free speech and to believe what you wish but PLEASE if you have any compassion or empathy at all PLEASE stop counselling people.
Depression is a very serious problem and can have many causes, some of them to do with brain chemistry.
To advise a vulnerable person with depression that their problem is a manifestation of sin and pride is a wicked form of abuse. You should think seriously about the damage you are causing to people’s lives.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

[Mad]

(Interest declared - on 150mg venlafaxine per day.)

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

Here's the transcript provided by ECHURCH BLOG

"I consider that depression and many other mental illnesses are very deliberately decided by that person.

My name is Malcolm Bowden, I’m a committed evangelical Christian, and have been giving true Biblical counselling to many people with mental health problems. And from my experience, I believe that depression is a behavioural problem, rooted in pride, self-centredness, and self-pity.

True Christians, if they accept the Bible as being the Word of God, they will read in there many encouragements to live the full outgoing and loving Christian life. And a Christian, a TRUE Christian, should not ever be depressed, because he should be living his life for others, and he should have that peace of heart with God, when he knows that God has promised him a wonderful future in heaven with him.

Many depressed people turn in on themselves and feel that people are against them, the world’s not going right, they don’t appreciate how hard they’re working, they’re terribly proud of their situation, and try to be perfect in order to impress people, and people aren’t ultimately impressed, and when they suddenly deflate themselves, they fall right back into a pit of depression.

Man is basically so proud and so self-centred, he refuses to come to God in total humility. But that is ultimately what God is seeking from all of us, and we reject His requirements at our peril."

Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on :

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
You should think seriously about the damage you are causing to people’s lives.

I wonder what the suicide rate is amongst people with depression "treated" with this approach. I would imagine it might be quite high.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

quote:
Man is basically so proud and so self-centred, he refuses to come to God in total humility.

Did anyone else notice the irony here?

[Mad]

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

As soon as he says, 'a true Christian should never be depressed', you know he's a quack, as no genuine counsellor or psychotherapist would use the 'should' word in that way.

I'm not sure why this strand of 'Christian counselling' is spreading. It is itself full of pride and ignorance.

Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
As soon as he says, 'a true Christian should never be depressed', you know he's a quack, as no genuine counsellor or psychotherapist would use the 'should' word in that way.

I'm not sure why this strand of 'Christian counselling' is spreading. It is itself full of pride and ignorance.

And incredibly cruel. Even if you actually believed all that stuff about depression being the result of a person's bad choices, telling them it's all their own fault is hardly likely to help is it? If you're saying someone is a self-centred perfectionist who feels bad because they can't do well enough to please the world, giving them more things to worry about not doing right is going to make it all worse. This kind of counselling doesn't even make sense on its own terms.

[ 26. April 2012, 08:46: Message edited by: Helen-Eva ]

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

What a colossal cunt.

Posted by passer (# 13329) on :

Sometimes, it's difficult to know which side of a discussion to empathise with, to feel "on side" with. I experienced that dilemma when listening to this interview.

Also, his voice reminds me somewhat of Stanley Unwin, which decreases even further any possible seriousness with which I might take his words, inasmuch as the content is garbage (which is very similar aurally to garbled).

You know you're in trouble when George Galloway is using you in order to big up his own gravitas. What a wanker.

Posted by Ender's Shadow (# 2272) on :

The answer to this surely lies in fact that drugs make a difference in many cases - a friend and a relative have recently both seen exactly this effect in their lives. So the scientific hypothesis is:

Depression is caused by a chemical imbalance

This predicts:

Drugs may make a difference

This is observed: therefore the hypothesis is 'proved', and this guy is proved to be an idiot.

The problem of course is that in a few cases he may be right; but that's for a counsellor to determine gently, not for idiot to assert to the exclusion of all other explanations.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

One positive aspect of it is that no professional body, at least in the UK, would countenance this kind of pseudo-psychological talk. It is obviously out of the mouth of someone untrained.

So hopefully, most people who seek counselling or therapy will have the sense to go through such professional bodies.

Of course, this can still go amiss, as with the 'gay conversion therapy' issue, but as far as I can see, that is also being dealt with now.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Ironically, there seems to be good evidence that religious faith of some kind (I don't think it matters which), does protect people against mental illness and suicide.

However, it is intriguing to speculate as to which aspects of religious faith do this - current ideas seem to be connected with the social community aspect of religion, and the positive thoughts and feelings which it often engenders.

However, this is a different kettle of fish from this kind of quackery, which I would have thought is quite dangerous.

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

This is his webpage. He thinks people like him are the answer to all mental illness. From looking at his website I think he may be mentally ill.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

I wouldn't wish serious depression on anybody. But I'm seriously tempted to wish it on this guy, just so he can experience first hand how wrong he is. [Mad]

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Oh no, yet another creationist engineer. What is it about engineering that produces people like this? Apologies to all engineers present, I am sure you are not like this.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
What a colossal cunt.

No. He lacks depth and warmth.

In the 'Team America: World Police' scheme of things he's clearly an asshole.

[ 26. April 2012, 10:01: Message edited by: Amos ]

Posted by ianjmatt (# 5683) on :

Idiotic and irresponsible tosser. Dick.

What is it with crackpot Christians and websites that go on forever on the homepage and basic formatting with endless links circa 1995?

And, of course, the relationship between 'Creation Facts' and 'True Biblical Counselling' should be carefully noted. Good science all round.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

A prime candidate for Fruit Tube, perhaps? Or is it too soul-crushingly awful, even for that?

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

The devil wears prozac.

AtB, Pyx_e

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Oh no, yet another creationist engineer. What is it about engineering that produces people like this? Apologies to all engineers present, I am sure you are not like this.

A civil and structural eng, moreover. I reckon he spent too long on site without a hard hat. Now he needs a tinfoil one.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
What a colossal cunt.
No. He lacks depth and warmth.

In the 'Team America: World Police' scheme of things he's clearly an asshole.

Yeah, but "colossal asshole" doesn't get across the strength of feeling in quite the same way.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

More accurate though because arseholes tend to be full of shit, which they then discharge with unpleasant effect from time to time.

[ 26. April 2012, 10:49: Message edited by: Matt Black ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
What a colossal cunt.

The only way I could better that comment would be to accompany it with a thwack across his face with a large plank.

Posted by Cryptic (# 16917) on :

What a complete turd. I don't know whether to feel [Mad]

for any poor souls that have been "counselled" by this deadshit.

[Mad]

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

Reminds me of when I was told that worrying was a sin. Yeah that really helped.

Posted by Jonathan Strange (# 11001) on :

The man's a coward too. If you're going to criticise a group of vulnerable people, better choose Depression Sufferers and not - for instance - sufferers of violent psychopathic disorders who have access to sturdy and unkindly-shaped camping equipment.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

One or two charming souls have gently suggested that I don't need medication to control my occasional epileptic fits. Listen, I tell them: if I discontinue my meds, I have fits.

A substantial part of the probelm is the term 'drugs'. These ignorant zealots take the view that drugs that affect the brain affect the mind (which ain't necessarily so) and as anti-depressants and anti-convulsants do just that they are eevil, so any healing must involve freedom from the drugs.

Note that the proponents of this view aren't at all stupid. They are ignorant and zealous, which does as much harm and with far less excuse.

eta: I don't discount myself from the sin of pride, but anyone who tries to form even the most tenuous link betweeen sin and illness needs some elementary scriptural teaching.

[ 26. April 2012, 11:56: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

'Wilfully ignorant', I believe, is the kindest term I can find to describe them

Posted by chive (# 208) on :

I watched this last night while signed off sick with major depression and anxiety. It made me feel a whole lot better about myself. [Roll Eyes]

Reading the 'case studies' on his website horrifies me with their cruelty - vulnerable people being abused by a so called Christian.

Apparently Rethink the mental health charity are complaining to Ofcom about it.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I wouldn't wish serious depression on anybody. But I'm seriously tempted to wish it on this guy, just so he can experience first hand how wrong he is.

Chorister, you are a good Christian. You stop at "seriously tempted". I'm not a good Christian. I hope he gets it. Bad. That way, he'll also learn the true meaning of Hell - when every waking thought hurts, when the thought that tomorrow will be like today hits you like a raging bull, when your only hope of respite is not only hoping you can sleep, but praying you don't dream.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

I know of a woman who does not have classic depression but bipolar disorder. Some jerk-wad, God-heals-everything "friend" (not of her church) persuaded her her that God had cured her, and that she no longer needed meds. She should trust the Lord and not test him by using medication again. She unraveled and started behaving and thinking erratically. One day, not that long after, she killed her husband. (And no, I'm not saying that people with bipolar disorder typically manifest violence. Just that sadly it did in this situation.)

Both she and her husband had been well-liked and well-respected members of a little Episcopal church not that far from mine. Members there still keep in contact with her in prison. She asked why. They told her that she no less than her husband was a member of their church family always. And they loved her.

It's the same way most of us feel about jlg.

[Votive]

Posted by passer (# 13329) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
What a colossal cunt.
The only way I could better that comment would be to accompany it with a thwack across his face with a large plank.

You reminded me of this individual and his cure for mental health issues - are you perhaps already familiar with his work? His observations on laughter therapy can be found on this page. He validates his research by reference to the Old Testament :

quote:
The benefits of laughter have been recorded as far back as the Old Testament. The Book Of Proverbs 17:22 states ''Being cheerful keeps you healthy. It is slow death to be gloomy all the time.''

I'm not seeking to trivialise the issue - I'm not immune to it myself - but these nutjobs abound on the internet.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

I think this chap is obviously seriously mentally ill. That is the only excuse I can think of for such outrageous claims.

Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :

quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
This is his webpage. He thinks people like him are the answer to all mental illness. From looking at his website I think he may be mentally ill.

I agree. Quite apart from the fact that his website screams 'nutjob' this is a man who genuinely believes the earth is the centre of the universe and has posted reams of 'evidence' to support this. The man's a delusional obsessive. Why is anyone even giving him the time of day, let alone being given a voice on Channel 4. I'm sure Channel 4 could trawl the local hospitals and find someone who's convinced the government is stealing his brainwaves and has a garden shed full of evidence to support his convictions. Doesn't mean you take them seriously!!

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by passer:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
What a colossal cunt.
The only way I could better that comment would be to accompany it with a thwack across his face with a large plank.
You reminded me of this individual and his cure for mental health issues - are you perhaps already familiar with his work? His observations on laughter therapy can be found on this page. He validates his research by reference to the Old Testament :
quote:
The benefits of laughter have been recorded as far back as the Old Testament. The Book Of Proverbs 17:22 states ''Being cheerful keeps you healthy. It is slow death to be gloomy all the time.''
I'm not seeking to trivialise the issue - I'm not immune to it myself - but these nutjobs abound on the internet.

Nope, that's a new one to me. I was just referring to the satisfaction of thwacking this guy with a 2 by 4.

As for the link... whoa. I suppose that takes "snap out of it" in a completely DIFFERENT direction.

I think my favourite bit on that page is where he says using his method 3 times on a paedophile can lead to the paedophile committing suicide. How the fuck exactly DOES HE KNOW THIS? REPEAT TESTING?!

Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :

Decisive sounding talk that masquerades as knowledge is still ignorance ignorance. We see it everyday with politicians, pundits and assorted others.

Obviously a religious nutbar quack is not the one to consult about mental health troubles. Try a psychiatrist, psychologist or other actually knowledgable specialist. Is he flogging a book? I also would not suggest consulting such lunatics about home plumbing problems, auto repair, making pastry or environmental problems.

Media outlets, also not expert in anything that they report about, like people like this because they draw attention, and modern society, made up of voyeurs with boring lives likes something to distract from their pathetic lives. Maybe he can move in with the Kardashians or Ozzy.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:

Media outlets, also not expert in anything that they report about, like people like this because they draw attention, and modern society, made up of voyeurs with boring lives likes something to distract from their pathetic lives.

You mean like us?

Posted by Mary LA (# 17040) on :

A friend who calls herself a 'recovering evangelical' sent me the link posted by the OP and noted that this appalling view is gaining ground in certain fundamentalist and evangelical circles. Some evangelicals call for what they call 'accountability psychology' in which the depressed person needs to repent and turn to God rather than to a godless psychiatrist. Their key objection is that therapists/psychiatrists are not trained in biblical principles and ignore the problem of sin.

She linked to one or two blogs

[URL=http:Should Christians Go to Psychiatrists?[/URL]

And an interesting comment here on the Gnosticism of evangelicals who believe that accepting medication indicates a lack of faith in the spiritual and who develop a 'spiritually based defensive structure' for dealing with mental health care.

Evangelicals and psychiatric services

The same delusional thinking that would attempt to 'cure' homosexuality or exorcise people suffering from schizo-affective disorders.

[bad code. go to your room]
[first link opens 50 times -DISABLED]

[ 27. April 2012, 06:30: Message edited by: PeteC ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mary LA:
A friend who calls herself a 'recovering evangelical' sent me the link posted by the OP and noted that this appalling view is gaining ground in certain fundamentalist and evangelical circles. Some evangelicals call for what they call 'accountability psychology' in which the depressed person needs to repent and turn to God rather than to a godless psychiatrist. Their key objection is that therapists/psychiatrists are not trained in biblical principles and ignore the problem of sin.

She linked to one or two blogs

[url= http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer%27s%20Corner/should_christians_go_to_psychiat.htm]Should Christians Go to Psychiatrists?[/url]

And an interesting comment here on the Gnosticism of evangelicals who believe that accepting medication indicates a lack of faith in the spiritual and who develop a 'spiritually based defensive structure' for dealing with mental health care.

Evangelicals and psychiatric services

The same delusional thinking that would attempt to 'cure' homosexuality or exorcise people suffering from schizo-affective disorders.

I would have thought the same reasoning process would lead to not going to godless doctors for physical ailments, either. Accepting, for a microsecond purely for the sake of argument, that mental illnesses are somehow non-physical.

I've certainly come across the viewpoint that 'physical' ailments, also, are/can be a manifestation of sin.

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:

quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
This is his webpage. He thinks people like him are the answer to all mental illness. From looking at his website I think he may be mentally ill.
I agree. Quite apart from the fact that his website screams 'nutjob' this is a man who genuinely believes the earth is the centre of the universe and has posted reams of 'evidence' to support this. The man's a delusional obsessive. Why is anyone even giving him the time of day, let alone being given a voice on Channel 4. I'm sure Channel 4 could trawl the local hospitals and find someone who's convinced the government is stealing his brainwaves and has a garden shed full of evidence to support his convictions. Doesn't mean you take them seriously!!

Even more worrying from the site is that his co-author Robert Law is a doctor turned vicar - meaning he has the titles to convince people to listen to him instead of recognising [Projectile]

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The answer to this surely lies in fact that drugs make a difference in many cases - a friend and a relative have recently both seen exactly this effect in their lives. So the scientific hypothesis is:

Depression is caused by a chemical imbalance

This predicts:

Drugs may make a difference

This is observed: therefore the hypothesis is 'proved', and this guy is proved to be an idiot.

No, not really. Your brain works by electrochemistry. Your thoughts are instantiated as molecules. So its perfectly possible to imagine that depression, or any other mental state, could be caused by circumstances and thoughts.

That's not thr reason he's an idiot. The reason he is an idiot is because it doesn't matter one way or the other. When someone is in that state they need help, no matter how they got there.

You could break your leg by getting angry and drunk and trying to kick your neighbours wall down. But that doesn't mean that you can cure a broken leg by repentance.

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :

quote:
Originally posted by passer:
You reminded me of this individual and his cure for mental health issues - are you perhaps already familiar with his work? His observations on laughter therapy can be found on this page. .

And as for being thumped in the head to cure depression, and its ok because I will only be knocked out for 30 sec at a time...

I sure such treatment does remove memories - repeated blows to the head have been known to do that.

As for the broadcast this 5 min slot on Channel 4 is designed to be provocative, and mostly the weirdos hang themselves with their own words in those few minutes

[if bad code was caused by sin you'd be heading straight to hell]

[ 26. April 2012, 15:44: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

He's clearly one of the miserable tendency among evangelicals. Where's the grin? Actually he looks depressed.

He'd be dangerous if it was possible to take him seriously. Though I imagine if you are feeling at a low ebb, listening to that sort of crap is not going to be helpful.
[Mad]

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :

No, indeed, it wouldn't be helpful. Like others who have posted I have suffered from depression, one time a severe postnatal depression that lasted about 2 years. My GP merely offered Valium when I burst into tears in the consulting room, and even my husband, though he tried, couldn't comprehend the depths of misery I was feeling. I eventually got through it with the help of several female friends, who offered tea and sympathy, and support.

Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
What a colossal cunt.

Amen. And there are some commentators, particularly in Purg, who are adding themselves to the cuntish rollcall.

Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm not sure why this strand of 'Christian counselling' is spreading. It is itself full of pride and ignorance.

Oh, that's simple. Hey, you have a chemical imbalance in your brain, you're going to be dealing with it for the rest of your life through a combination of difficult and emotionally taxing therapy, and medication with periodic relapses due to some esoteric combination of stress and hormones and life events we can't really predict.

But there's this dude over here who has an instantaneous, 100% guaranteed to work (if you have enough faith) cure!

Fucking hell. If they offered me something that really could in one day could cure my depression forever, I'd give everything *and* my left arm.

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
What a colossal cunt.
No. He lacks depth and warmth.

In the 'Team America: World Police' scheme of things he's clearly an asshole.

As I constantly assert, assholes are useful (otherwise we'd all be full of shit). For someone who encourages the spread of disease, diminishes comfort, and encourages chafing, there's just one descriptor that applies-- douche.

[ 26. April 2012, 15:06: Message edited by: Spiffy ]

Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on :

I'm going to suggest that this guy is not interested in reaching out to anyone who has a mental health issue, but is more interested in reassuring those who don't. One of the scariest things about depression - like cancer - is that it can hit out of the blue, at any time, and affect anyone. You can do things to lower your risk but it can still happen. So just as there's a massive following for people who claim that if you *insert bullshit preventative measure here* you will absolutely never get cancer, there's an attraction to someone who claims that doing X will absolutely prevent depression.

It also gives you a choice not to have to be supportive to anyone you know who is depressed, because it's their fault. Depressed friends and family can be a lot of work, after all. So it's nice to have an excuse not to have to bother looking after them. Without such an excuse, you might have to think about the kind of loving and patient support Jesus would expect you to provide to someone who was suffering. It's a bit like the way we can get out of helping the poor if we convince ourselves that it's entirely their fault that they're poor and anything we do to help just makes it worse. So yeah, I can understand why this would be an attractive idea to someone who wasn't depressed. It's bullshit, and it's dangerous, but attractive.

Utterly bowled over by the idea that depression stems from a surplus of pride though. That's ballsy, even for this guy. Depression strips away your excess pride, and then every ounce of self worth you have, until getting out of bed becomes a fight against an endless jelly wall of self hatred pushing back against you.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Yes, and then some plonker tells you that you've failed basically! I would say he is the one with excess pride and narcissism.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
Even more worrying from the site is that his co-author Robert Law is a doctor turned vicar - meaning he has the titles to convince people to listen to him instead of recognising

Doesn't worry me. There's no intelligence bar on what has was well defined upthread as wilful ignorance. It has its roots in self-deception.

Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :

Oh mi God!!! ( the one I follow as opposed to the wrathful deity subscribed to by this chap) - he's actually resident in the UK?! [Help]

. Sorry Pondwellers, when I first glanced at the stuff on his site I assumed that he was based across the Atlantic. [Hot and Hormonal]

Well, the words "True Biblical Counselling" say it all. [Mad]

That and the grotty web design.

One word - Bargepole Excuse me while I go away and ponder new and exciting places to stick it.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
What a colossal cunt.
No. He lacks depth and warmth.

In the 'Team America: World Police' scheme of things he's clearly an asshole.
Yeah, but "colossal asshole" doesn't get across the strength of feeling in quite the same way.

But cunts are attractive to (most) men - this guy was ugly.

Call him a prick, perhaps, then again......

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Yes, I hugely prefer cunts to this guy, and would even if I were completely straight. I rather think that's complimenting him. I might suggest that he is a fucker with all the wits of a skunk in heat.

And Miffy, I advise getting within in barge pole distance of this farter; you might have to hear him speak if you got that close.

[ 26. April 2012, 16:28: Message edited by: Gwai ]

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :

quote:
Originally posted by passer:

Also, his voice reminds me somewhat of Stanley Unwin, which decreases even further any possible seriousness with which I might take his words, inasmuch as the content is garbage (which is very similar aurally to garbled).

Me too!

I consideryfollolop that depressy-how and many other formly-most of the mentalodes are very delibermake by that person and trickly-how! Deep not joy!

On the other handy, from Marvin keyboard transmitty to the eardroves of God:

What a colossal cunt.

Oh Yes.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I think this chap is obviously seriously mentally ill. That is the only excuse I can think of for such outrageous claims.

Don't be a dickhead too. Mental illness is a serious problem, and can be treated, often, but should invoke sympathy, support and help.

This guy is a foetid piece of dog-turd fungus. Not crazy, just unbelievably stupid. Mindless stupidity, when it is paraded to the public like this does not deserve sympathy, it deserves a good kicking.

One look at his web site, which is mind-numbingly bad, tells me that a village is missing its idiot. Sadly, the fuck-witted, scum-turds these days can get on the net. Sometimes I think we should make it slightly harder, so that people like this fucking asshole couldn't get on.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
[bad code. go to your room]

Unnecessary tinyurls are dangerous and suck foetid pond water.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
He'd be dangerous if it was possible to take him seriously. Though I imagine if you are feeling at a low ebb, listening to that sort of crap is not going to be helpful.

The first problem is that some people - especially of a more conservative evangelical persuasion - manage to take the most fuck-witted diddle-crap seriously. However completely unacceptable it is to a normal, rational person.

The second one is that, as you allude to, some people with depression will accept this as an indication that they are to blame. And the results of blaming people for their own depression are often very bad.

Incidentally, I am an evangelical christian, who suffers from depression. It is fucking awful without wank-stains like this making me feel worse.

Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :

In a depressed state you are vulnerable and sometimes self loathing and so more likely to take this tripe to heart. My mother suffered terribly from depression and felt such huge guilt and pain over her loss of faith and people like this preyed on her brokeness like vultures. They told her that relying on medication was a refusal to take up her cross. She died completely broken at 52 and I guarentee you these people contributed.

Posted by WhateverTheySay (# 16598) on :

I have responded fully in Purg, but I want to add myself to the people angry at the utter BS that this idiot is spewing. It annoys me even more that this guy is a counsellor, with the complete lack of empathy he seems to be displaying. I'm only glad that I was never one of his clients.

I bet he would soon change his views if he ever had a depression episode.

[brick wall]

Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on :

I have figured out why he is so public.

If he actually believes what he says, his only response to people seeking help from him must be "Go to Church and get right with God, then you will be better." Under the circumstances, him charging anyone for any amount of time beyond what it takes to say that would be theft. You can't ethically charge for services that aren't necessary after all.

So, he has to make the rest of his money by some other means; like selling books and lecture appearances.

When all that runs out he will get his MD and tell people that their: cancer; psoriasis; diabetes; dementia, etc. is their own fault and that they need to "Go to Church and get right with God, then you will be better."

This will mean him embarking on a new series of books and lectures to regain lost income.

Posted by HughWillRidmee (# 15614) on :

"My name is Malcolm Bowden, I’m a committed evangelical Christian" - the absence of caring people in white coats suggests this is not true - but I reckon the world would be a safer place if it were.

Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :

quote:
True Christians, if they accept the Bible as being the Word of God, they will read in there many encouragements to live the full outgoing and loving Christian life. And a Christian, a TRUE Christian, should not ever be depressed, because he should be living his life for others, and he should be living his life for others, should have that peace of heart with God, when he should be living his life for others, knows that God has promised him a wonderful future in heaven with him.

Many depressed people turn in on themselves and feel that people are against them, the world’s not going right, they don’t appreciate how hard they’re working, they’re terribly proud of their situation, and try to be perfect in order to impress people, and people aren’t ultimately impressed, and when they suddenly deflate themselves, they fall right back into a pit of depression.

Man is basically so proud and so self-centred, he refuses to come to God in total humility. But that is ultimately what God is seeking from all of us, and we reject His requirements at our peril."

Well thank the LORD then! He excludes women from his analysis.

One of the few times feminists can be thankful for the twits who still insist on non-inclusive language...

[ 27. April 2012, 06:01: Message edited by: Nunc Dimittis ]

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

His response to my e-mail.

Dear Matt,
Your criticism is only one of over 100 that were made on the broadcast.
In view of this I am attaching my response.
Please reply if you wish.
Best wishes,
Malcolm Bowden.

4THOUGHT - CHANNEL 4 - WEDNESDAY 25 APRIL 2012 - 7.55PM - DEPRESSION.
MY COMMENTS ON CRITICISMS RECEIVED.

I was interviewed by channel 4 on 15 March 2012 on depression. The whole filming took over 45minutes but was edited down to 1min 45 secs!
I was fully prepared for the editing to present only the most negative points I made, which in a way was so, but I would say that overall it was a fair presentation of my views as I am well aware that they are greatly resented by most people who have never heard my reasons for holding these views. It is impossible for anyone to present their views AND then give the evidence of why they hold them in the allowed time of 1m 45s! I hope to correct by presenting some of this evidence in this article.

1. WEBSITE. I was not allowed to give any publicity to my website or book which contain much that has changed many people's lives.
In view of this, I would ask critics to visit my website where I have a number of letters/emails received from people I have helped particularly with their depression. The direct link to the page is -
www.mbowden.info/bibcoun1.htm. At the start are two articles - comments, and how I stumbled upon True Biblical Counselling.

2. CHRISTIAN SUPPORT. To see the whole series, go to www.4thought.tv When I looked there late on Wednesday evening, there were some 90+ vitriolic comments on the transmission, plus further comments on these comments which I did not count. Total about 150 I would guess. Only one was fairly sympathetic. A number said they were Christians and were disgusted that I should call myself a "committed evangelical Christian", thus bringing disrepute upon our faith. I am certainly made to appear as the only Christian who holds to such extreme views.
So on this subject let me give a few quotations.
Would a few quotes from the great Dr. Martin-Lloyd Jones on depression persuade many evangelical Christians? Not to those whose mind is made up already! Remember he was a MEDICAL doctor nearing the highest levels in the medical world, which he gave up for the ministry. These are taken from his "Spiritual Depression" and I copy what I have said on my website.
......................................
"Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones on depression
When I started to read his book "Spritual Depression", as he was a highly regarded medical man, I fully expected him to take the conventional line of drugs etc. Much to my surprise, his views were in exact accordance with ours! I quote some of his statements;
"..I say that this person is still morbidly and sinfully preoccupied with self. I said just now that we have to be brutal with this condition. [emphasis MB] And it has to be said that the real trouble with these people is still 'self'... They appear very humble and full of contrition, but it is mock modesty, it is a self-concern... Forget yourself, leave the judgement to Him; get on with the work." [p.87]
"In a sense, the depressed Christian is a contradiction in terms, and he is a very poor recommendation for the gospel." [p.11] "..and saying: I am in great difficulty - it probably means that we are all the time centred upon ourselves. That is introspection, and in turn it leads to the condition known as morbidity." [p17].
One very damning comment was "Psychology, I believe, is one of the most subtle dangers in connection with the Christian belief.... we do not preach psychology, we preach the Christian faith." [p.265]
Throughout the book, he says exactly the same that we are proposing - that it is self-centred and self-pitying thinking that is the cause of depression.
....................................
The Apostle Paul went through terrible hardships but not once was he ever depressed. Indeed he said Christians should "Rejoice; again I say rejoice" and "Think more of others than yourself". Not once did he ever succumb to depression but claimed that the Christian faith was "..joy unspeakable and full of glory."
Jay Adams found he had not been trained to deal with counselling in his theological college, so he investigated the subject in depth, writing some 40 books and pamphlets on counselling. He followed O. Hobart Mowrer as he went round psychiatric hospitals curing schizophrenics simply by breaking past their defence strategies to get to the guilt that they had been hiding deep inside them. They acted in a bizarre and aggressive way simply to prevent people from enquiring too deeply and discovering their guilty secrets. Adams wrote much on depression. He pointed to their self-absorbtion, but did not pinpoint that basically they were acting self-centredly.

3. SECULAR SUPPORT.
The Pheonix Conference. Held in 1975, this huge conference had all the big names in psychotherapy. "Three out of the four members of the prestigious panel on schizophrenia declared that the disease [?] was non-existant." R.D. Laing insisted that schizophrenia "did not exist until the word was invented.""
Such views from such prestigious names has never reached the mainstream psychiatric/psychological professions - their income is too closely connected to maintaining this facade.
Thomas Szas, a member of the schizophrenia panel, has written a book called The Myth of Mental Illness.
On this subject of the classification of what constitutes a "mental illness", the now huge Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) lists all the various mental illnesses. Inclusion of an "illness" requires only a show of hands by a gathering of psychiatrists of the symptoms of the illness. If a person has a certain number of the symptoms on the list, then they are classified as having that particular "mental illness". THERE IS NOT A SCRAP OF SCIENTIFIC BASIS TO THE WHOLE OF THE PSY PROFESSIONS - (psychiatrists and psychologists).

Glasser, Harrington and Mainord
Glasser, in his book Reality Therapy, recounts how these three psychologists had huge success rates (80-100% cures with very few relapsing) with criminal girls, schizophrenics and men in a general psychiatric hospital simply by training them to take responsibility for their actions. So you see schizophrenia CAN be cured, but their method is not acceptable in today's "politically correct" culture. I quote from this book at length in our book Breakdowns are good for you [BAGFY].

4. CASES OF DEPRESSION
I have examined a number of cases - people who have come for help, or simply read our book, or have written (or been written about) in magazine articles. Given enough "background" information of their past life, I have found every time that they have had a pattern in their attitude to life of wanting praise, admiration, ambition, friendship etc. without really giving themselves to others in simple love towards them without seeking any return. They were consistently wanting praise but they never really "gave of themselves". If they DID do "good works", there was always an underlying desire to "buy" people's affection, which was often seen for what it was - so they never received a truly affectionate response to the depth that they were wanting. People are very sensitive to anyone who does NOT "give themselves" in open friendship; the signals that they send you on such occassions are extremely subtle and difficutl to define, but they are easily sensed by most people. When they find that they do not get the full response that they are seeking, we have the beginning of that inward collapse that heralds depression.
What they should do is GIVE of themselves in a quiet loving way and not expecting (seeking?) any responding return of affection. That will come when they are recognised as being truly "open hearted and genuine" people with a REAL interest in the welfare of other people, with no facades or barriers they hide behind.
In this short paper I feel I must be blunt. Life is full of problems, calamities and catastrophies that come upon us all. What many have done is to mentally collapse at the first hurdle of opposition, and frankly, what has really happened is that they have failed to face up to them in a mature way - they have never grown up to take the rough and tumble of the world in a mature (Christian?) way.

5. PERSONAL EXPERIENCE
The most common accusation by my critics is that "I have obviously never experienced depression otherwise I would be more sympathetic to this terrible illness". The implication is that only sufferers from depression should counsel other sufferers; a dubious proposition indeed. What is invariably offered is what I call "tea and sympathy" and "a shoulder to cry on". They go away happy, and both counsellor and counsellee are both satisfied. Unfortunately, this rarely cures their problem at depth, and they are likely to return to their former state when stress and pressure arise again. as it is bound to come in time.
What is badly needed is for the real cause of their problem to be revealed to them - gently but firmly. For their testimony of what happens to them when they DO respond to this approach I repeat that the reader should go to www.mbowden.info/bibcoun1.htm
Many admit that they are now more stable, at peace with themselves, no longer perfectionists to prevent criticisms, not so ambitious etc. Some in fact say they are glad they went through depression because it taught them what the real priorities in life are.
On this, I would mention that at one time in my life, when I was far from being mature and long before I became a Christian, I went through an extremely stressfull and testing three months. When it was over, I was lying in my bed and all the pent up fear and anxiety that I had supressed suddenly bubbled to the surface and I began to be so stressed that the room began to "swim" around me and I realised that I was on the point of having a "mental breakdown." I have a very clear memory of saying to myself "You have only one life to live. Either you face up to life and overcome your fears or you will buckle under and be a mental wreck for the rest of your life." This started me on the right path although I struggled with it for many years, but I was very determined to enjoy my life.
On another occasion, I gave my first public lecture against evolution with no other person's support. The night before I gave the lecture I was so fearful that I literally shook with fear in my bed. However, I was so determined to publicise the truth about the falseness of evolution that I forced myself to give the talk. The result was that I have never had any fear of public speaking since. It is this determination NOT to be limited by my inadequacies that has paid a huge dividend over the years of increased confidence and joy in serving God in any way He makes available to me. I have truly had a very stressfree and happy life.
Critics portray me as a hard-hearted man who cannot possibly be a Christian. In response, I can assure them that I am greatly loved by all 15 of my immediate family - (ask them if you know one of them!). In addition, every Christmas I circulate about 120 copies of 4 sides of A4 jokes that I have collected in the previous year. Recipients always look forward to receiving them. [See them at www.mbowden.info/Xmasjokes.htm ]
I merely mention this to show that I am far from being a kill-joy. It is the truth of a situation that I am always seeking, not the conventional propaganda that is consistently being pumped out by the mass media and by many churches that is absorbed by the general public. It is this that puts me at variance with the vast majority of people who accept the conventional wisdom.

FINALLY - I fully expected a huge amount of criticism - some of it from other Christians. I would repeat that many have been grateful for the way in which I have opened their eyes to what they are doing to themselves. Jay Adams has said "It is NOT kind to empathise with people without pointing out the real root of their problem".
I find that the truth of any situation is always rejected if it conflicts with a person's deeply held views that they have cherished for a lifetime. The process of admitting to oneself that you have been wrong on any important subject is too stressful and humiliating to the inner pride. So such evidence is firmly rejected without being prepared to consider carefully whether it is true or false.
Unfortunately, this also applies to many Christians when faced with contrary views.
I could present much more but will leave it there.

Malcolm Bowden.

Posted by Cryptic (# 16917) on :

quote:
FINALLY - I fully expected a huge amount of criticism - some of it from other Christians.

Not wrong there.

Despite this self-justification he's still a deadshit.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

There are some times when I really hate the fact that Hosts have to read every word posted on their board.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

And on the subject of Hosting:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
[bad code. go to your room]
Unnecessary tinyurls are dangerous and suck foetid pond water.

It was necessary. The original url wasn't being recognised by the Ship's UBB code.

Posted by Tyler Durden (# 2996) on :

Haven't read the whole thread but just read most of his email defending himself... starting to wonder if he is some sort of performance artist who has created this character as a spoof. Can it be real? If it is, someone shoot put a bullet through the back of his head asap

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
One or two charming souls have gently suggested that I don't need medication to control my occasional epileptic fits. Listen, I tell them: if I discontinue my meds, I have fits.

Oh Yeah. Yeah. Have you also had it gently suggested to you that your fits are the result of demonic activity? I have. By my mother. Who is a Christian Counsellor.

Which suggests that the following statement...

quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcotal:
One positive aspect of it is that no professional body, at least in the UK, would countenance this kind of pseudo-psychological talk. It is obviously out of the mouth of someone untrained.

...is a bit optimistic. Although, of course, I DON't live in the UK, but my mother is a member of one of the two professional oversight bodies here. As was the counsellor who recently made reference to chakra lines when talking to me... - to be fair, she did also have some fairly useful stuff to say, but you do have to wonder if these 'professional bodies' are really in the nature of the 'send $250 for your degree today' universities. Do they in fact DO anything, or do they rubber-stamp anyone who has managed to get their fist around a diploma and is prepared to pay the fee, without ...ummm... checking if they are sane?

Posted by Jonathan Strange (# 11001) on :

quote:
Originally written by Malcolm Bowden:

Critics portray me as a hard-hearted man who cannot possibly be a Christian. In response, I can assure them that I am greatly loved by all 15 of my immediate family - (ask them if you know one of them!).

Also sprach Fred Phelps.

quote:
Originally written by Malcolm Bowden:

In addition, every Christmas I circulate about 120 copies of 4 sides of A4 jokes that I have collected in the previous year. Recipients always look forward to receiving them.

The man is an imbecile to think this is relevant.

Posted by Jonathan Strange (# 11001) on :

quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
One or two charming souls have gently suggested that I don't need medication to control my occasional epileptic fits. Listen, I tell them: if I discontinue my meds, I have fits.
Oh Yeah. Yeah. Have you also had it gently suggested to you that your fits are the result of demonic activity? I have. By my mother. Who is a Christian Counsellor.

Is she sure it isn't because of a Masonic influence in your life from your paternal great-great-grandfather? Unbroken soul ties are, as any fule no, the cause of anything and everything bad in your life.

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

Oh - and seeing as this is hell, Mr. Bowden can take his 'sin of pride' and shove it a good long way up his ass. I would say that my problem, insofar as I am capable of diagnosing myself, is a chronic lack of pride - an inability to understand, accept, or feel that anything I do, produce, or am, is in any way good or worthwhile or meaningful or anything other than hypocritical insincere fake cheating shite. Which I suppose looks like self-pity to someone like this chap who has all the answers direct from the big [happy] guy in the sky...

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:

quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
One or two charming souls have gently suggested that I don't need medication to control my occasional epileptic fits. Listen, I tell them: if I discontinue my meds, I have fits.
Oh Yeah. Yeah. Have you also had it gently suggested to you that your fits are the result of demonic activity? I have. By my mother. Who is a Christian Counsellor.
Is she sure it isn't because of a Masonic influence in your life from your paternal great-great-grandfather? Unbroken soul ties are, as any fule no, the cause of anything and everything bad in your life.

Don't think we've had any Masons, but there were a bucketload of Roman Catholics in there until the generation before me saw the evangelical light - perhaps that's the problem...

[ 27. April 2012, 09:08: Message edited by: anoesis ]

Posted by Pants (# 999) on :

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
...and how I stumbled upon True Biblical Counselling.

Oh how I'd love some of that.

quote:
"In a sense, the depressed Christian is a contradiction in terms, and he is a very poor recommendation for the gospel."

So glad I don't claim to be a Christian.

quote:
Glasser, in his book Reality Therapy, recounts how these three psychologists had huge success rates (80-100% cures with very few relapsing) with criminal girls, schizophrenics and men in a general psychiatric hospital simply by training them to take responsibility for their actions.

I feel so much better for knowing it's all my own fault.

quote:
They were consistently wanting praise but they never really "gave of themselves". If they DID do "good works", there was always an underlying desire to "buy" people's affection, which was often seen for what it was - so they never received a truly affectionate response to the depth that they were wanting....

What they should do is GIVE of themselves in a quiet loving way and not expecting (seeking?) any responding return of affection. That will come when they are recognised as being truly "open hearted and genuine" people with a REAL interest in the welfare of other people, with no facades or barriers they hide behind.

I'd like to give you all myself for you to do as you please with.

quote:
"You have only one life to live. Either you face up to life and overcome your fears or you will buckle under and be a mental wreck for the rest of your life."

Ah, that's better, I feel cured.

quote:
In response, I can assure them that I am greatly loved by all 15 of my immediate family - (ask them if you know one of them!).

Splendid. I am so very pleased for you. That's is a fairly normal occurrence as people close to you usually love you despite your shittiness.

quote:
The process of admitting to oneself that you have been wrong on any important subject is too stressful and humiliating to the inner pride. So such evidence is firmly rejected without being prepared to consider carefully whether it is true or false.

I am wrong.

There... all better now. What an amazing person he is.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

Re: Mr Bowden ... isn't it wonderful when someone's description of themself confirms the opinion you've already formed of them?

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:

quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
Is she sure it isn't because of a Masonic influence in your life from your paternal great-great-grandfather? Unbroken soul ties are, as any fule no, the cause of anything and everything bad in your life.
Don't think we've had any Masons, but there were a bucketload of Roman Catholics in there until the generation before me saw the evangelical light - perhaps that's the problem...

Yes, yes and yes. We have some busy bodies who are well into Cafflicks (check, baptised RC), the Masons (close, Dad was a member of the Buffs), demonism (probably, went to a few gigs where a lot was smoked that wasn't tobacco) and they have put their noses in exactly once. Apart from skipping my meds the only thing that brings on fits is very serious drinking + dehydration.

[ 27. April 2012, 11:27: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :

Dear sweet baby Jesus cuddled up in the Christmas crib, if that copypasta 'response' of his ain't the textbook definition of teal deer! His douchecanoe has a draft so deep he's got to be dead center over the Marianas Trench to float!

Posted by WhateverTheySay (# 16598) on :

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot, quoting Malcolm Bowden
Glasser, Harrington and Mainord
Glasser, in his book Reality Therapy, recounts how these three psychologists had huge success rates (80-100% cures with very few relapsing) with criminal girls, schizophrenics and men in a general psychiatric hospital simply by training them to take responsibility for their actions. So you see schizophrenia CAN be cured, but their method is not acceptable in today's "politically correct" culture. I quote from this book at length in our book Breakdowns are good for you [BAGFY].

WTF?

This statement really offends me.

I wish it were that simple. I have a psychotic disorder and also I feel very strongly that I need to take full responsibility for my actions, which I make sure I do. Yet I am not cured. I take medication every day, but still experience a return of some symptoms when I don't sleep or get too stressed.

With the right treatment, schizophrenia can go into remission even for a number of years. But like any chronic medical condition, it is not cured. There is always a risk that symptoms can return in situations such as stress, coming off meds, meds no longer working, and possibly other triggers depending on the individual.

But I have never heard that something like 'taking responsibility for our actions' being a cure for anything. It certainly hasn't cured me.

[brick wall]

Seriously, Malcolm Bowden needs to actually educate himself before spewing this utter bullshit.

(edited because there was a weird gap in the quote that didn't look right - 'preview post is my friend')

[ 27. April 2012, 19:40: Message edited by: WhateverTheySay ]

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It was necessary. The original url wasn't being recognised by the Ship's UBB code.

Quite right. Please accept my apologies.

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WhateverTheySay:
This statement really offends me.

If you were willing to take responsibility for your actions you would say "I am allowing myself to be really offended by this statement."

Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WhateverTheySay:

But I have never heard that something like 'taking responsibility for our actions' being a cure for anything. It certainly hasn't cured me.

Of course it hasn't. I've noticed that arthritis or MS or other conditions and illnesses never get targetted this way.

It is interesting and informative to hear this evil madman's ravings if you use something like arthritis or cancer to replace every reference to depression. It shows really how vacuous his thoughts are. It does seem to be a form of evil.

The only thing responsibility contributes is appropriate self care to cope and manage the illness as best as can, as you say manage stress and sleep, follow medical treatment etc.

Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Oh no, yet another creationist engineer. What is it about engineering that produces people like this? Apologies to all engineers present, I am sure you are not like this.
A civil and structural eng, moreover. I reckon he spent too long on site without a hard hat. Now he needs a tinfoil one.

Oh good Lord. Harold Camping is a CE.* Bless their hearts, some are just not smart enough to realize that expertise in one area does not imply expertise in a completely different one. (Lots of CEs in my immediate family, who are the "smart" ones.) So I'll recycle something I was saying during the RAPTURE NOW!! fiasco:

If this guy built bridges like he [does Biblical math/practices psychotherapy], it would fall down and people would die.

Unfortunately with the kind of advice this guy is handing out, it looks like people will die anyway [Waterworks]

* This may sound weird, but engineering is still considered "sound" in local con evo circles as a career choice, as most disciplines do not require biology classes (and exposure to scary evolutionary theories [Biased]

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

All the willpower in the world hasn't even succeeded in getting my pigeon-toed left foot to turn out. Fat chance it's gonna cure my bipolar depression.

I'll get right on that, though - just as soon as I finish willing my way to skin clear of eczema, which is on my agenda immediately after curing my asthma by simply willing to breathe. (I mean, it's just breathing, right? The most natural thing! If only I were a more virtuous person.)

Now, if Mr. Bowden would like to regain normal observational skills, he might try exercising a little humility.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:
Originally posted by WhateverTheySay:
This statement really offends me.
If you were willing to take responsibility for your actions you would say "I am allowing myself to be really offended by this statement."

I would take full responsibility for the action of kicking the shit out of you for saying that.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

Well, it's all our own fault for not listening to all that well-meaning advice. Over the years most people on this thread will have been advised to snap out of it, stand up straight (because posture is very important), practise smiling, eat lots of bananas, and go for long walks.

So the next time you see anyone beaming as they set proudly off on a 26 mile hike, rucksack full of bananas, you can bet they're probably very depressed and just struggling to hide it.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

He has irritated me enough to blog about the turd-stain

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:
Originally posted by WhateverTheySay:
This statement really offends me.
If you were willing to take responsibility for your actions you would say "I am allowing myself to be really offended by this statement."
I would take full responsibility for the action of kicking the shit out of you for saying that.

So you don't have control over your reactions? That seems like a crappy way to live. Gives other people a lot of power over you too.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:
Originally posted by WhateverTheySay:
This statement really offends me.
If you were willing to take responsibility for your actions you would say "I am allowing myself to be really offended by this statement."
I would take full responsibility for the action of kicking the shit out of you for saying that.
So you don't have control over your reactions? That seems like a crappy way to live. Gives other people a lot of power over you too.

I have full control over my reactions. Don't worry about that sweety pie.

I would make the deliberate and calculated decision to kick the shit out of you.

Only, I should point out, if I thought you were actually being serious.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

I find myself wondering if violent sociopathy is a real mental illness or a choice.

But of course you aren't serious either, but making the threat still comes across as a little badly adjusted to me.

(Perhaps you'd kick the shit out of me for saying that as well).

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I find myself wondering if violent sociopathy is a real mental illness or a choice.

But of course you aren't serious either, but making the threat still comes across as a little badly adjusted to me.

(Perhaps you'd kick the shit out of me for saying that as well).

I assume Sine was, as usual, not being serious, so I am continuing to play the game with him.

It is more fun than saying anything more about Malcolm "foetid dog-shit for brains" Bowden.

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I assume Sine was, as usual, not being serious,

I habitually use a light tone. That doesn't mean I'm not serious.

Posted by Silver Faux (# 8783) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Well, it's all our own fault for not listening to all that well-meaning advice. Over the years most people on this thread will have been advised to snap out of it, stand up straight (because posture is very important), practise smiling, eat lots of bananas, and go for long walks.

So the next time you see anyone beaming as they set proudly off on a 26 mile hike, rucksack full of bananas, you can bet they're probably very depressed and just struggling to hide it.

I think you are on to something, Ariel. Really, I do.
This morning, I decided to go for a long bike ride, to deal with my guilt feelings after eating an entire carrot cake.
My front bike tire was flat, even though the bike worked fine yesterday.
I tried to inflate the inner tube. It exploded in my face.
I then borrowed my wife's bicycle, and went for a 20K ride.
When I was almost home, the cutest little chipmunk ran in between my front and back tires, and I squished it dead.
Boy, was that depressing! But at least I have a better chance than the chipmunk, when it comes to snapping out of it.

Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
As soon as he says, 'a true Christian should never be depressed', you know he's a quack, as no genuine counsellor or psychotherapist would use the 'should' word in that way.

Well, the statement would be true -- if depression were caused by being ungrateful to God. If all you had to do to dismiss clinical depression was count your blessings.

I assume the guy referred to in the OP doesn't take any medicines or go for any physical exams or therapies, then?

("What do you mean, my irritable bowel syndrome is caused by sealing up my bowels of mercies? All I've got to do to cure it is be merciful? What a quack! Give me some pills before I sue you!")

Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I find myself wondering if violent sociopathy is a real mental illness or a choice.

Depends on whether you are acting for the defendant or the state.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:

(Interest declared - on 150mg venlafaxine per day.)

I'll second that.

225 mg venlafaxine. Much better now. I used to crash emotionally regularly once a month.

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
I've noticed that arthritis or MS or other conditions and illnesses never get targetted this way.

a side note to the rest of the discussion, but MS does get some of this. The "mind over matter" camp has a strong following, though thankfully small. I have even had a "specialist" doctor tell me that the "cure" for my MS is to get rid of all stress in my life, force myself to "push through" the symptoms, and the disease will disappear.

thankfully, these people are not taken seriously by most. as, hopefully, this jackass talking out of his ass about depression will also not be taken seriously.

Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on :

quote:
Originally posted by comet:

quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
I've noticed that arthritis or MS or other conditions and illnesses never get targetted this way.
a side note to the rest of the discussion, but MS does get some of this. The "mind over matter" camp has a strong following, though thankfully small. I have even had a "specialist" doctor tell me that the "cure" for my MS is to get rid of all stress in my life, force myself to "push through" the symptoms, and the disease will disappear.

thankfully, these people are not taken seriously by most. as, hopefully, this jackass talking out of his ass about depression will also not be taken seriously.

Believe it or not, even patients with spinal cord damage leading to paralysis are told that if they really wanted to, they could walk. I've been told that several times. I refer to it as the secular version of "name it and claim it" Word of Faith ministries. It's either supreme arrogance or wishful thinking on the part of those who aren't afflicted with illnesses or injuries in case they some day are afflicted.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

People are afraid of randomness, so they need to believe that there's a Reason (tm) for problems--thinking that, if they aren't affected by that Reason, they're safe.

So it’s something like this:

{Will/choice of God/dess/Universe/victim} and/or {Forbidden behavior/thoughts} and/or {Evil} = Problem.

This gives people a sense that Everything Is Under Control. Maybe not the Pan-Glossian “best of all possible worlds”, but not wildly random, either.

It’s applied to any kind of bad thing. I’ve had it applied to my various health problems by medical professionals, friends, etc.. It’s angering and frustrating—and, in the case of medical folks, drastically delays diagnosis and treatment. Years ago, the US Centers for Disease Control misused the money set aside for CFIDS research. Fortunately, Congress called them on the carpet, and things changed. But how much suffering might have been avoided if the CDC hadn’t wasted time??

Some resources:

--The Listening to CFIDS site has accounts by people with CFIDS/CFS/ME. “Hysterical??” (by Anonymous) is particularly apt.

-- InvisibleDisabilities.org has lots of good info.

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

Someone on Facebook recently sent me the definition of "Ignoranus": Someone who is both ignorant and an asshole. I would put this fellow and his pious-to-puke pseudo-professional associates in that category.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
[QB] So says Malcolm Bowden

Never heard of him. Given how much better I'm doing with Citalopram in the morning and Lorazepam at night I'd say he's wrong unless there are ingredients in those two drugs known to wash away sin.

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Well, it's all our own fault for not listening to all that well-meaning advice. Over the years most people on this thread will have been advised to snap out of it, stand up straight (because posture is very important), practise smiling, eat lots of bananas, and go for long walks.

So the next time you see anyone beaming as they set proudly off on a 26 mile hike, rucksack full of bananas, you can bet they're probably very depressed and just struggling to hide it.

I was told to eat *fewer* bananas. Is that why I'm still depressed? [Frown]

Posted by GreyFace (# 4682) on :

quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
Although, of course, I DON't live in the UK, but my mother is a member of one of the two professional oversight bodies here. As was the counsellor who recently made reference to chakra lines when talking to me... - to be fair, she did also have some fairly useful stuff to say, but you do have to wonder if these 'professional bodies' are really in the nature of the 'send $250 for your degree today' universities. Do they in fact DO anything, or do they rubber-stamp anyone who has managed to get their fist around a diploma and is prepared to pay the fee, without ...ummm... checking if they are sane?

I have a bit of peripheral experience of what's required by the two main psychotherapy organisations in the UK (I did some training once that could have led on to meeting their requirements eventually) and my opinion is that over here, you're not going to get your name on the register without having acquired both an in-depth knowledge and a fair bit of practical experience in whichever modality you're looking at. So that rules out the cheque-for-qualification nutters but it doesn't guarantee that what the therapist has been taught is solid stuff.

The problem is that (in my humble opinion, of course and I know we have actually psychologists and psychotherapists on the Ship - I'm open to correction) psychotherapy is, to the extent that it's a science at all, a young science and what's being taught is a mixture of
1. Sound psychology, psychiatry and I suppose applied neurophysiology
2. Techniques and working models that seem to be effective but don't have a sound scientific basis
3. Techniques that almost certainly are based on crackpot theories but work for some people
4. Complete and utter bollocks.

Generally, and again this is my humble opinion, any psychotherapist worth paying attention to has a good grasp of the distinction between these groups, and is able to adapt the choice of therapy to match the circumstances. The ones you need to be wary of are those who think they've found The Secret Of Curing X, and the ones you need to run from with extreme prejudice are those who've discovered that The Secret Of Curing Anything is Y.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I was told to eat *fewer* bananas. Is that why I'm still depressed?

I think it shows that it is all bananas.

Incidentally, anyone affected with depression or other mental illness, who doesn't already know about Waving not Drowning, it is a board for the support of those who struggle with these issues. Please contact Esmeralda if you believe it would be helpful for you.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
[QB] So says Malcolm Bowden
Never heard of him. Given how much better I'm doing with Citalopram in the morning and Lorazepam at night I'd say he's wrong unless there are ingredients in those two drugs known to wash away sin.

Good to know the malady affects the wicked as well as the righteous.

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

Does it not strike anyone else that for some people, taking their meds is a way of taking responsibility for managing their condition?

(Personally I don't get anywhere near blue enough to need meds, but I do have to keep on top of my game with sleep and exercise if I want to stay as near as possible to mental equilibrium. The bugger is getting started - when I don't go running, I get miserable and fed up and then I don't feel like going running and so I don't, and on and on etc. Meh.)

Posted by WhateverTheySay (# 16598) on :

quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Does it not strike anyone else that for some people, taking their meds is a way of taking responsibility for managing their condition

I for one would be a mess without my meds.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
[QB] So says Malcolm Bowden
Never heard of him. Given how much better I'm doing with Citalopram in the morning and Lorazepam at night I'd say he's wrong unless there are ingredients in those two drugs known to wash away sin.
Good to know the malady affects the wicked as well as the righteous.

hehe, cool.

Luke 18:13

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Does it not strike anyone else that for some people, taking their meds is a way of taking responsibility for managing their condition?

Excellent point. The stigma of being on anti-depressants, or other meds for depression is ridiculous and unfair.

In later years I developed a kind of reactive depression which - being a bit of an introspective kind - continues to hover over me, sometimes big time. One of the biggest lessons I had to learn was to stop being such a big hairy hypocrite and telling depressed parishioners that there was no failure or shame in taking the meds, till I at last agreed with my doctor that maybe I could be helped that way, too.

Why did I feel a failure when I got my first script? Why am I still (until now) so reluctant to let even close friends and relatives know? And yes, I've thought very carefully about posting this here. I work normally (for the most part), am reasonably happy with life, enjoy life (for the most part). The meds help this to happen.

But why would I much rather people think my 28-day blister pack is for the Pill than Cipromil? [Paranoid]

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

quote:
But why would I much rather people think my 28-day blister pack is for the Pill than Cipromil?

So they thought your were getting it?

AtB Pyx_e

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
[QB] So says Malcolm Bowden
Never heard of him. Given how much better I'm doing with Citalopram in the morning and Lorazepam at night I'd say he's wrong unless there are ingredients in those two drugs known to wash away sin.
Good to know the malady affects the wicked as well as the righteous.
hehe, cool.

Luke 18:13

No.

Matthew 5:45b

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:

quote:
But why would I much rather people think my 28-day blister pack is for the Pill than Cipromil?
So they thought your were getting it?

AtB Pyx_e

Haha!

You could well be right!

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

Most of the middleaged people I know take
some sort of medication because some system or organ isn't working in prime condition. Why can't the brain be accepted as imperfect just like all our other parts?

When someone writes an article like this I always wish for a peek at his medical records. I'd like to ask him if say, he might want to give up his Synthroid medication because, let's face it, that sluggish thyroid is really just a manifestation of the sin of sloth isn't it?

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
But why would I much rather people think my 28-day blister pack is for the Pill than Cipromil?

I hear you, Anselmina, because our prescriptions are so nobody's business, but, just to put it into perspective: When I pick up my son's Abilify for his schizophrenia, there's usually a busy crowd around the pharmacy and they start to tune in when they hear his unusual name and then the $700 cost -- so I sometimes mumble something about depression (Abilify's other use) to throw them off track.
------------------

My one bout with clinical depression happened when I quit smoking. It was like a switch had gone off in my brain making every single aspect of life dark and threatening. It couldn't have been more obvious that this was brain chemistry out of balance and not anything to do with attitude or effort.

I just wrote a description of how I felt, with examples, and then deleted it. In fact I've had to skim both of the depression threads because, even just talking about it too much makes me feel a little bit like I'm walking on the edge of the abyss.

Does anyone else share my illogical feeling that depression is contagious? For me it's like a parallel dimension and, now that I know it's there, just a tiny step sideways could send me over. I can't even watch the TV ads for anti-depression drugs. That music!

Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :

My mother described it as finding herself on the sunless side of the street where there was little light and it was cold, dark and flat and she could find no footing. When she wasn't there it was always in the corner of her eye; looming.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
[QUOTE]
Does anyone else share my illogical feeling that depression is contagious?

Yes , I do get that feeling . Just as war fever or other types of hysteria / euphoria are also contagious.

[QUOTE] I can't even watch the TV ads for anti-depression drugs. That music!

I don't blame you for that . Wasn't aware AD's were advertised on telly . Maybe not in UK .

Posted by Drifting Star (# 12799) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Does anyone else share my illogical feeling that depression is contagious? For me it's like a parallel dimension and, now that I know it's there, just a tiny step sideways could send me over. I can't even watch the TV ads for anti-depression drugs. That music!

Not exactly, but I know just what you mean. There's an area between having depression and not having it where I feel as though there is a big black dog in the room, and as long as I don't make eye contact with it I will be OK.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Anyone wanting to try and understand what depression is like might do well to look at The Red Tree by Shaun Tan. It is the book that said to me someone "got it" and when you spend enough time with it there is a message of hope there.

Jengie

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Does anyone else share my illogical feeling that depression is contagious?

I believe I would not have become depressed if my husband was not (and all the professional people I have consulted over the years agreed), but the stress of caring for him did bad things to my mental health, so your feeling is not entirely illogical. [Biased]

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :

Giving this 24hrs to decide if it has totally progressed to All Saints territory or not - remember, you can start spin off threads on the appropriate boards.

As far as I can tell thus far, some knobend talked crap - nobody agreed with him.

Think²

Hellhost

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

quote:
Does anyone else share my illogical feeling that depression is contagious?

Which is why i'm not reading this thread.

AtB, Pyx_e

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

While fully respecting Pyx_e's point about not reading the thread because of the 'depression is contagious' thing, for me the strength to cope with the situation began to come when I realized I was genuinelly weak in this area - whether for just a certain time, or maybe for the rest of my life (who knows?).

We all have to deal with our responses to depression in the way that is best for us at the time.

Is it ironic to say that currently, despite my own struggles I've never been more content in my life than now?

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

Good post!

AtB Pyx_e

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
[QUOTE]Does anyone else share my illogical feeling that depression is contagious?

Sort of. Some years back, i was in a pastoral situation with someone who'd been sectioned. My visit coincided with a visitor from MIND (a mental health advocacy group in the UK) who urged the 'patient', "Co-operate with the nurses. Take whatever pills they give you so that you can get out of here as soon as possible. Otherwise the other patients will drag you down."

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
No. He lacks depth and warmth.

Precisely - there seems to be a huge gulf between his (questionable) diagnosis and the idiological perfect relationship with God he espouses. I also don't like his complete disconnection and lack of empathy for such people.

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Giving this 24hrs to decide if it has totally progressed to All Saints territory or not - remember, you can start spin off threads on the appropriate boards.

As far as I can tell thus far, some knobend talked crap - nobody agreed with him.

Think²

Hellhost

I think we're done here.

Think²
Hellhost

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0