• Were there complete block trains with wagons by one single owner?
• Are wagons owned by the businesses whose names are on the wagons, or do they belong to one of the railway companies?
• Were there block trains, such as for coal, run with wagons from different businesses?
• Or did they put them together in all sorts of combinations, types, colours and businesses?

[ETA: Found more pics of what he's thinking of.]

I'm afraid this particular time in UK rail history's never been my particular strength, thus helpful comments are appreciated.

Many thanks. And Thomas and tanks.

[ 11. March 2012, 15:10: Message edited by: Wesley J ]
 

---

Posted by frin (# 9) on :
 
Hi Wesley,

Is this one of those queries that would be better on a specialist forum, rather than a rumoured to be Christian website?

'frin
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
'frin

I was at an induction just over a week ago, when I came across the information that there is a high risk of co-morbidity between being an organist and a railway buff.

Jengie

[ 11. March 2012, 16:06: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 

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Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :
 
Organist - or bishop?


 

---

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 

quote:

---

Wilbert Vere Awdry, OBE (15 June 1911 – 21 March 1997), was an English clergyman, railway enthusiast and children's author, better known as the Reverend W. Awdry and creator of Thomas the Tank Engine, who starred in Awdry's acclaimed Railway Series.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Metapelagius:
Organist - or bishop?

---

Love that! A worthy successor to the late +Eric Treacy. Who is he?

And re a previous post, there is such a strong correlation between churchy people (especially clergy and Servants of the Sanctuary) and railways that I think such a thread is particularly appropriate for this website.

But I'm not enough of an anorak to answer the OP's question I'm afraid.
 

---

Posted by Uriel (# 2248) on :
 
Having previously worked in a Diocesan Parsonages office, I can confirm that one vicar caused structural damage to his home by building a tunnel through the living room wall so his train set could carry food from the kitchen to all stations around the ground floor.
 

---

Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :
 


I know that the Talyllyn Railway in Wales has a high proportion of church-goers and clergy among its volunteers and regular passengers. No getting away from them, some days!
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Question-- does being interested in train towns make you part of the train nerd community, or do you primarily have to be interested in the mechanics?
 

---

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
Ok, what are train towns, please?
 

---

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
I'm sad enough to be able to answer the questions. I'm even sad enough to think that how goods traffic was managed in steam days is fascinating.

The little wagons your continental friend is asking about were the normal way coal was moved around the country until the 2nd World War. The wagons would belong to local coal merchants who sent their wagons to collieries to collect coal, gas companies etc, or to collieries who would send coal to those that had ordered it.

They did not usually travel in block trains. They were collected from collieries and goods yards, taken to marshalling yards and then shunted into other trains with other peoples' wagons going in the general direction of where they were bound for, then shunted again and tripped out to where they were going.

Goods trains were classified according to the speed and way they travelled. The classifications varied over time and between railway company. These were denoted by the lamp codes on the front of engines and the bell codes used between signal boxes.

The only controllable brakes on most goods wagons were on the engine and in the guard's van at the rear. Because coal trains were heavier and slower than general merchandise ones, on the long stage of the runs, coal usually travelled in long slow dedicated coal trains, except when they were being tripped out to local goods yards for delivery to (or collection from) coal merchants.

So every Private Owner (PO) wagon made one journey full and one empty. To reduce this and pool them, when war broke out in 1939, the government took them into central control. So by BR days there were no PO coal wagons, though in 1948, there were still probably some showing shabby traces of their former owners.

In the 1950s, huge quantities of coal were still grinding slowly around Britain in unbraked wagons but they were supplied by BR. The wagons still looked the same but as the fifties progressed, BR changed its standard pattern coal and mineral wagon from a wooden box to a metal one of about the same side.

Does this help?
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wesley J:
Ok, what are train towns, please?

---

Forgive me, but to give my definition I'm gonna have to get all Califonian for a minute....

Along the coast of California, there are all these towns that grew up from isolated outposts centering around a trains station. In other words, the only reason there was a town there was that a train station went there. People would even buy land along a train route so they could start their own town ( e.g. Pescadero, CA, build by land owner Loren Cobern. The late Tobin, CA, built by the Tobin family. etc.)

Some of the stations are still operating, most are not. ( At least in my area-- the Ocean Pacific Railroad had a tragic, geography-challenge history.) But for the most part, the town still has the station as a central feature, and you can kind of see how things have morphed around it.
 

---

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 


<speechless adoration>

Learning a few new things here as well - it all sounds perfectly logical, now that you're pointing it out! Food for thought! Enoch is Enoch! Ta, mate!

I love history and seeing how it all comes together. Especially if you're into modelling, knowing the history of trains and lines s a huge asset: you need to think that the landscape was there before the train, and so they had to work with nature and around it, and form it - but by and large, the surroundings were there first.
 

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Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
Pleased to be of service.
 

---

Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
I'm sad enough to be able to answer the questions. I'm even sad enough to think that how goods traffic was managed in steam days is fascinating.
My hubby would agree with you. He is particularly interested in the goods wagons of L&YR.
As a future Vicar I joke that I meet the requirements of train interest by marriage!
(edited to correct inability to type!)

[ 11. March 2012, 20:51: Message edited by: Jante ]
 

---

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Metapelagius:
Organist - or bishop?

---

Love that! A worthy successor to the late +Eric Treacy. Who is he?

And re a previous post, there is such a strong correlation between churchy people (especially clergy and Servants of the Sanctuary) and railways that I think such a thread is particularly appropriate for this website.

But I'm not enough of an anorak to answer the OP's question I'm afraid.

---

quote:

---

The signal box from his garden railway was lost

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:
AEC buses of the 1930s?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
[edited to fix link]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wesley J:
Ok, what are train towns, please?

---

Forgive me, but to give my definition I'm gonna have to get all Califonian for a minute....

Along the coast of California, there are all these towns that grew up from isolated outposts centering around a trains station. In other words, the only reason there was a town there was that a train station went there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cheesymarzipan:
[...] (Is it odd that the Thomas theme tune started playing in my head when I saw the thread title??)

---

Nah.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Ken-- Let's just call it Definition A. and Definition B.
 

---

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :
 
Just to continue the Train Town tangent:

Certainly in western Canada, and in quite a few places east of Thunder Bay, towns grew up specifically because of the railways. The railways actually built the stations and laid out the road pattern before there was any sort of town in hundreds of places. The immigrants weren't going to come if there was no infrastructure. Canadian Northern alone built 1073 stations in the West during a 20-year span (1897 to 1918), although, admittedly, a few of these were replacements for buildings that burned or that proved to be too small for the job, and the vast majority were in townsites created by the railways.

That these towns depended on the railway is shown by the disappearance of many of them once the passenger trains and wooden grain elevators became redundant.

Similarly, places like Napadogan, NB or MacAdam, NB became shadows of their former selves with the end of steam power.
 

---

Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by cheesymarzipan:
Another railway town is Crewe.

---

quote:

---

Would he still have passed muster if his enthusiasm was Glasgow and South Western Horseboxes, or even something completely different, bee-keeping or AEC buses of the 1930s?

---

Contributing to a thread idea in 'another place', we might note that men most certainly are not useless if one needs information on AEC buses of the 1930s. Or, on one vintage radio board to which I contribute, obsolete flourescent light fittings. 20+ pages of thread...with pictures. Clear evidence in my mind that man shall not live by bread alone...
 

---

Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Metapelagius:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Metapelagius:
Organist - or bishop?

---

Love that! A worthy successor to the late +Eric Treacy. Who is he?


...

---

Who is he? Another picture taken at Pickering, showing Dr Platten, this time with Dr Hope.

---

I will be one of the people you can just make out on the footbridge...
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Of course, that was before the new roof was installed.
 

---

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
This thread should be in a dark corner of Hell.

AtB, Pyx_e
 

---

Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :
 
I have also visited since the new roof was installed, and very fine it looks too! I should next be going to the NYMR on the May Bank Holiday.
 

---

Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:
This thread should be in a dark corner of Hell.

AtB, Pyx_e

---

And also with you!
 

---

Posted by geroff (# 3882) on :
 
The only answer to that is
to post some trains from hell
from the darkest recesses of a geeks mind...

[ 13. March 2012, 13:44: Message edited by: geroff ]
 

---

Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
I should have asked "Is that why you chose him?"
Enoch, no but as a lass born in Yorkshire and brought up in lancashire it was an attraction! At least I can talk knowledgably about the area and take an interest in the buildings which still exist. He's hoping we may eventually settle long enough in one place to be able to have a train track either in the loft or garden!

 

---

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
New London King's Cross concourse completed. Mmmmmh... sweet.
 

---

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by geroff:
The only answer to that is to post some trains from hell from the darkest recesses of a geeks mind...

---

Now that is as weird as it is spectacular! Sort of Ubergeeky.

(OK, I admit to drawing and designing entire new engines and trains as a kid myself, including lotsa technical details, and with rail connections and routes, in a completely ficticious country. Strangely enough, it all appeared to make quite some sense! - Perhaps I should start again... it was a very creative and content period in this geek's life and is fondly remembered, and though possibly not up to Tolkien standards of inventiveness, was certainly a great lot of fun! )
 

---

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wesley J:
possibly not up to Tolkien standards of inventiveness, was certainly a great lot of fun!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wesley J:
possibly not up to Tolkien standards of inventiveness, was certainly a great lot of fun!

---

Middle Earth with trains would, just ever so slightly, stir my interest.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
Middle Earth with trains would, just ever so slightly, stir my interest.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
if Tolkien had anything to do with it then seventy-five pages of pointless tramping over a bog under laden skies (while not getting nearer to one's objective) would be replaced by seventy-five pages waiting for a train.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
Did you see the bottom one in geroff's link, Firenze?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wesley J:
New London King's Cross concourse completed. Mmmmmh... sweet.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Just to continue the Train Town tangent:

Certainly in western Canada, and in quite a few places east of Thunder Bay, towns grew up specifically because of the railways. The railways actually built the stations and laid out the road pattern before there was any sort of town in hundreds of places. The immigrants weren't going to come if there was no infrastructure. Canadian Northern alone built 1073 stations in the West during a 20-year span (1897 to 1918), although, admittedly, a few of these were replacements for buildings that burned or that proved to be too small for the job, and the vast majority were in townsites created by the railways.

That these towns depended on the railway is shown by the disappearance of many of them once the passenger trains and wooden grain elevators became redundant.

Similarly, places like Napadogan, NB or MacAdam, NB became shadows of their former selves with the end of steam power.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
And yes, it is perfectly normal to have a garden railway. My railway interest - Light Railways according to E R Calthrop - is faithfully reflected in our yard. Building the 76mm gauge wagons to piggy-back on to the transporter wagons is going to be interesting though!

---

We like the Leek and Manifold!

[ 15. March 2012, 08:43: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
 

---

Posted by geroff (# 3882) on :
 
.. I build in a scale that really ought to be in the garden .. the layout lives inside the Curatage and in my head at the moment.

Thanks for all the comments on my link. I do think we need to keep this thread spectacularly weird - what is this about loose coupled trains?....
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
British railways were spectacularly primitive (and dangerous) in their handling of freight for most of their existence. Most of it was carried in small short-wheelbase wagons which were coupled together basically using short, three-linked chains between the buffers. These were not automatic: men had to get underneath the wagons (or, at least, get at the gap between them) to hang the chain over the hook of the next wagon. There were some slightly more sophisticated couplings called "Instanter" which had one link so shaped that it could tighten up the connection.

There were virtually no continuous brakes: each wagon had lever-operated hand-brakes. These had to be applied at the top of an incline by the train stopping and a man applying each brake individually; the process was reversed at the bottom of the hill. As you will imagine, this made train operation extremely slow. Later in life some trains did have a continually braked section, coupled next to the locomotive, which gave more braking power. However in all cases the train had a heavy brake-van at the rear.

The use of this rear-end brake was more sophisticated than might be imagined. Clearly it was there to stop wagons running away on hills or if a coupling got broken. But they also served to keep the couplings tight in dips along the line, otherwise the "snatch" of the couplings between wagons could break them. Sometimes, too, after stopping on an uphill gradient the train would reverse very gently onto the brake-van so as to slacken the couplings slightly: this was helpful as the locomotive could then pick up the wagons one-by-one, making the train easier to start.

This system was a strange survival from the very early days of railways. It survived because distances travelled in Britain were short, with much remarshalling of trains along the way: it was easier to uncouple these wagons than to undo screw couplings. There was also a lot of rolling stock and many goods yards which would not convert to a modern system. Until about 1950 there were few modern wagons in service.

Today freight wagons are not dissimilar to passenger vehicles in coupling and braking, and normally operate as fixed "block sets".

[ 15. March 2012, 15:29: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
 

---

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :
 
American trains were loose-couples at first: a long chain link was set into a socket on each car, and a pin was dropped through each end of the link. This required someone to hold the link up for it to enter the socket on the second car, so there were a lot of railway workers with parts of their hands missing.

The invention of the Janney coupler, direct ancestor of the modern coupler, in the 1880's got rid of the link-and-pin for interchange service, but there were local uses for the old style at least into the 1950's - the little (4' gauge) trains that moved gypsum out to the plaster mill in this village had them until after WW2.

American trains had some sort of brake lever or wheel on each car from quite early times. This is why there were roof-walks on almost all cars - the brakeman had to run from car to car to set the brakes when the whistle called for that. Continuous air brakes got rid of that need, also in the 1880's, but the roof walks had other uses and survived into the 1970's.

The "caboose" was more like a rolling office and lunch room than a specific "brake" vehicle, although the conductor did have an air brake control in the caboose for emergencies. The cupola on these cars was used by an observer when the train was moving, watching for dragging equipment, hot boxes or other problems, since the driver couldn't be expected to being looking back all the time.

[ 15. March 2012, 15:38: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Back in 1969 I spent a week working on the Festiniog Railway. We were staying up at the "Moelwyn Tunnel Mess", some miles from the nearest road.

On the last morning we asked if we could form a short train of flat wagons and take ourselves and our luggage, down to Tan-y-Bwlch station where we could then be given a lift down to the main line at Minffordd, before the passenger service began. (We had already been told there was no way we would be allowed to trundle by gravity all the way to Minffordd by rail!)

And so we did. The wagons were hand-braked from the front and kept together with the link and pin couplers mentioned by Horseman Bree ... except we were one pin short. Guess who had to hold onto the wagon in front! (It was all downhill so there was no "pull" involved - no locomotive in fact! But one still had to be a bit careful). The best bit was going through Garnedd tunnel.

It could never happen today.

Now, continuing the esoteric theme, what about a discussion of horse-shunting - it survived near here (at Woodbridge) well into the 1950s.

[ 15. March 2012, 17:03: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
And there's a picture of it on this page.
 

---

Posted by Yam-uk (# 12791) on :
 
Would there be any reason (technical or otherwise) why trains from European rail companies such as DeustcheBahn or SNCF (to take two examples) could not begin to operate direct train service through the HS1 Channel Tunnel link to say, places like Berlin, Marseilles and other continental cities??

[ 15. March 2012, 17:28: Message edited by: Yam-uk ]
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
The appallingly primitive braking on British railways never ceases amaze me. Over here the Westinghouse Air Brake is reckoned to be the greatest Railway invention along with the Janney coupler.

You simply could not work the grades that North American railways have without air brakes. Further is is a "deadman" brake too; a break-in-two causes the brake pipe to open to atmosphere and apply the brakes at full emergency in both sections.

Coal trains have always been fitted with air brakes, it is illegal to run a train without them. Since the Appalachians are a prime coal area you need them too to get down the grades to port at tidewater or to urban areas.
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yam-uk:
Would there be any reason (technical or otherwise) why trains from European rail companies such as DeustcheBahn or SNCF (to take two examples) could not begin to operate direct train service through the HS1 Channel Tunnel link to say, places like Berlin, Marseilles and other continental cities??

---

No, it's going to happen although it will be delayed: see this.

I don't know if there were any contractual or legal difficulties in the past prevernting this from happening. Of course, before HS1 opened trains on the British side ran with 750v DC third-rail electrification, which made through running impossible.

[ 15. March 2012, 17:45: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
 

---

Posted by Yam-uk (# 12791) on :
 
Jolly good show - I presumble that they will be restricted to the HS1 line due to the difference in gauges.

I guess the fact that the UK rail-system was developed in isolation from the rest of Europe for so long means that the differences will always hinder full integration - unless the EU pay for its upgrade of course
 

---

Posted by Strangely Warmed (# 13188) on :
 
Can we return briefly to the subject of train towns?

quote:

---

The Canadian Northern's competitor, the Grand Trunk Pacific, went so far as to name its towns in alphabetical order. There are three complete series and part of a fourth between Sudbury and Vancouver.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And there's a picture of it on this page.

---

It all seems appallingly old-fashioned to this EMU-habituated South-Easterner. Steam? Didn't they use to do that in Victorian times? We got rid of it before the War...

As for walkways on top of trains. Gulp. If they tried that round here there would be pieces of railway worker every few yards from London to Brighton.
 

---

Posted by Darllenwr (# 14520) on :
 
Another bid on the 'railway towns' theme - consider how many small towns in the UK feature the word 'Road' in their name. I am thinking of villages like Cemmaes Road and Llanbister Road. In each case, the railway did not run anywhere near the town after which a station was named, the station was simply adjoining the road to that town. In the case of Llanbister, I think the distance is 9 miles. In each case, a new town grew up around the railway station where previously there had been nothing.
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

It all seems appallingly old-fashioned to this EMU-habituated South-Easterner. Steam? Didn't they use to do that in Victorian times? We got rid of it before the War...

---

quote:

---

It all seems appallingly old-fashioned to this EMU-habituated South-Easterner. Steam? Didn't they use to do that in Victorian times? We got rid of it before the War...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Strangely Warmed:
Can we return briefly to the subject of train towns?

quote:

---

The Canadian Northern's competitor, the Grand Trunk Pacific, went so far as to name its towns in alphabetical order. There are three complete series and part of a fourth between Sudbury and Vancouver.

---

For a few years I served a pastoral charge in one of those towns, McBride, in central British Columbia. (I realize that I may be outing myself by revealing this information.) Not only were the towns named in alphabetical order, they all shared the same layout. The station was invariably on the north side of the tracks, and Main Street always ran back from the station, perpendicular to the railway. One block to the west and east were, respectively, King and Queen Streets (it might have been the other way around) and the streets beyond them were also invariably named, although I have forgotten the names ("Dominion" might have been one of them). Roads parallel to the railway were designated "Avenues" and were simply numbered consecutively away from the tracks.

The idea was that once you knew the layout of one GTP town, you would know your way around any of them, particularly helpful for recent immigrants with an incomplete command of the English language (the settling of immigrants was one of the principal roles of Canadian railways in the early twentieth century).

Incidentally, the western terminus of the "alphabet towns" was not Vancouver but Prince Rupert, as the GTP built to that north coast port, a full day's sailing time closer to the far east than Vancouver

---

You only out yourself enough that you used United Church terminology. What's that about, eh?


Y'bin hanging around the Manse, have ya?
 

---

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
**Personal Disclosure Alert - MIND THE GAP*** Having been married for more sad years to a Train Geek than I want to recall on a Heaven thread, I know more than I wish to about trains. However, I did get an *A* in my GCE Art exam for a pencil drawing of this:

A4 Pacific

and, having lately got into the Steampunk genre, this loco is so far ahead of its time, just sooo Perfect in every way that I feel I should maybe go back into counselling to learn to Love Steam once more
 

---

Posted by Dogwalker (# 14135) on :
 
Speaking of train towns, nobody has mentioned Coalinga, CA. It's pronounced Co-a-linga, but it was simply the first coal station on the line: Coaling A.
 

---

Posted by Dogwalker (# 14135) on :
 
And then there's the village where I grew up:

quote:

---

With saddened face and battered hat
And eye that told of black despair,
On wooden bench the traveler sat,
Cursing the fate that brought him there.
"Nine hours," he cried, "we've lingered here,
"With thought intent on distant homes,
"Waiting for the elusive train,
"Which, always coming, never comes;
"Till, weary, worn, distressed, forlorn,
"And paralyzed in every function,
"I hope in hell their souls may dwell
"Who first invented Essex Junction!"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jahlove:
[...] I did get an *A* in my GCE Art exam for a pencil drawing of this:

A4 Pacific [...]

---

That's very nice, Duck.
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Duck was famously a Great Western.
 

---

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
He was, he was.
 

---

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yam-uk:
Would there be any reason (technical or otherwise) why trains from European rail companies such as DeustcheBahn or SNCF (to take two examples) could not begin to operate direct train service through the HS1 Channel Tunnel link to say, places like Berlin, Marseilles and other continental cities??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Darllenwr:
Another bid on the 'railway towns' theme - consider how many small towns in the UK feature the word 'Road' in their name. I am thinking of villages like Cemmaes Road and Llanbister Road.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
Middle Earth with trains would, just ever so slightly, stir my interest.

---

quote:

---

It is a thing little remembered – even by the Wise – that Dwarven miners had been laying or carving tracks along the floor of their tunnels to ease the movement of ore trucks and other gear since at least the end of the Second Age. Moria, in its time of glory, was completely spanned by such, and a cable-hauled gravity-assisted rack-and-pinion railway was laid in the to take mithril and gems down to Lorien, and return with such provisions as even Dwarves need.

After the fall of Moria...

---

 

---

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 


I look forward to the account of the building of the Grey Havens Westward Tunnel Rail Link.

[ 16. March 2012, 12:01: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Wasn't the last proper steam main line the London & South Western line to Weymouth, only electrified in July 1967?

---

Weymouth? Oooh-arrrr pyrrats! I mean the Brighton Line of course - real trains for real tracks
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Ha - mere suburbia!
 

---

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
Towards a New Railway History of Middle-Earth

---

Brilliant!
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yam-uk:
Would there be any reason (technical or otherwise) why trains from European rail companies such as DeustcheBahn or SNCF (to take two examples) could not begin to operate direct train service through the HS1 Channel Tunnel link to say, places like Berlin, Marseilles and other continental cities??

---

No, it's going to happen although it will be delayed: see this.

I don't know if there were any contractual or legal difficulties in the past prevernting this from happening. Of course, before HS1 opened trains on the British side ran with 750v DC third-rail electrification, which made through running impossible.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yam-uk:
On another tangent, but connected to cross border/channel routes this notion here of a bridge or tunnel link between the Ireland and Britain looks interesting. It was obviously thought about in the late Victorian era as well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jahlove:
It takes a lot to laugh, it takes a train to cry

---

 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
The frequency with which British shipmates post videos of steam locomotives is irksome. And now for something completely different!!!

Canadian Pacific 4-6-4 H1b Hudson #2813 pulling a consist of CP business cars through the Kicking Horse Pass near Lake Louise. No diesel cover for the consist either.

A real locomotive at work.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
The frequency with which British shipmates post videos of steam locomotives is irksome.

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You're not wrong

quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
And now for something completely different!!!

Canadian Pacific 4-6-4 H1b Hudson #2813 pulling a consist of CP business cars through the Kicking Horse Pass near Lake Louise. No diesel cover for the consist either.

A real locomotive at work.

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On the other hand that was strangely beautiful .... sigh ... 5'21" of my life spent in animation
 

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Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
5'21"? You lucky bastard! I got linked-trapped in quite a few more CP2816 videos. (This one here was the best though.) And I even looked at a CN bridge on fire!

5'21"? Luxury!
 

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Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
Here's something different in the way of a steam locomotive. In order to keep the boiler horizontal on the steep grade, they had to tilt it.

Moo
 

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Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :
 
Minor detail: the locomotives on that line have no actual coupler, just a bumper for pushing the coach, since the coach is always uphill of the engine.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Two more details:

1. It's not coupled which means that, if the loco derails (as happened on the opening day of the Snowdon Mountain Railway), it doesn't take the coach with it.

2. Such locos are sometimes known as "Kneeling Cows".

On the Achenseebahn in Austria, the upper half of the line is level. So the engines runs round and hauls the carriage for the second half of the journey (or used to, at any rate).
 

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Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :
 
A less extreme example, but one that still required the construction on a trio of locomotives with boilers designed to ensure that the firebox crwon was still covered on a 1 in 13 incline was the Pwllyrhebog incline of the Taff Vale Railway.
 

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Posted by Darllenwr (# 14520) on :
 
A rather curious feature of the operation of that incline is that the locomotive would appear to be the wrong way round - with the firebox at the uphill end. All the kneeling cow locomotives I have seen are operated with the firebox at the downhill end, thus ensuring that the firebox crown remains covered.
 

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Posted by Strangely Warmed (# 13188) on :
 

quote:

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You only out yourself enough that you used United Church terminology. What's that about, eh?

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quote:

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Those thousands of stations built in the Edwardian/WW1 era had to have names, and the people doing the naming became, first, bored, and then desperate.

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Most famously, perhaps, the builder of the Kettle Valley Railway who turned to Shakespeare to name the stations along the Coquihalla River: Othello, Lear, Portia, Iago, Jessica, Romeo, and Juliet (but not sure if that is the right order).
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
That explains it.

I know there are a few joint Anglican/UCCan pastoral charges in BC.
 

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Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :
 
Apparently you can now walk to Othello
 

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Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Yam-uk:
On another tangent, but connected to cross border/channel routes this notion here of a bridge or tunnel link between the Ireland and Britain looks interesting. It was obviously thought about in the late Victorian era as well.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:
Do stations get named in alphabetical order or after Shakespeare characters because the line is being built through country that hasn't got anyone living in it already, so that there aren't even any farms or natural features that have names already? That was never the case in the British Isles.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
Hassocks on the Brighton line was a station to serve a (non-existent, at the time of opening) new housing development , and was given that name because the tufts of grass in the fields looked like church kneeling mats. Or so I was led to believe.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
The trees are suddenly full of lights.

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I don't recall a branch line into Lothlorien in your fresh findings in the Red Book appendices...
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Which I suppose would be known as the flet line...
 

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Posted by Strangely Warmed (# 13188) on :
 

quote:

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Do stations get named in alphabetical order or after Shakespeare characters because the line is being built through country that hasn't got anyone living in it already, so that there aren't even any farms or natural features that have names already?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:
Do stations get named in alphabetical order or after Shakespeare characters because the line is being built through country that hasn't got anyone living in it already, so that there aren't even any farms or natural features that have names already? That was never the case in the British Isles.

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I'm sure there must have been some stations in Britain which were built at remote block posts or crossing places with the aim of "opening up" the surrounding area. And I'm sure some of these had invented namers - I just can't think of any!

One interesting British name was "Twenty" on the old Midland & Great Northern, named after the adjacent twenty-foot drainage ditch. The drain clearly came long before the railway but I'm not sure that there was any proper village until the station opened.

I suspect that some of the Underground names as the system was expanded in the 1920s were invented ones - e.g. Kingsbury and Queensbury.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
Hassocks on the Brighton line was a station to serve a (non-existent, at the time of opening) new housing development , and was given that name because the tufts of grass in the fields looked like church kneeling mats. Or so I was led to believe.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
But if running the brake continuously (on a long down grade, or to keep couplings tight and avoid snatch) I would have thought a friction brake would overheat and fade.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Moo:
the Mount Washington cog railway ... I don't know what kind of brakes they had.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
If you stand on Ditchling Beacon before sunset and look out over the Weald - it is a wonderful place to stand and look out at any time of day or night! - it is almost like looking over a forest. The landscape is heavily wooded, it is one of the most heavily treed parts of England. It is also the part with the greatest variety of wildlife.

But as night falls an the lights come on you start to see that it is inhabited. And quite thickly inhabited. You are looking at the homes of about 80,000 people in a few square miles. A population density greater than some places that consider themsleves to be suburbs or even cities. The trees are suddenly full of lights.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Metapelagius:
. A tangent, but the naming of such drainage channels in the Fens has always seemed puzzling - there are 'Sixteen Foot', 'Twenty Foot', 'Forty Foot' and 'Hundred Foot' drains. The figures don't relate to width, depth - and certainly not length. So what do they mean, if anything?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Moo:
I remember when we rode the Mount Washington cog railway, we were told that on the way up the fireman did all the work, and on the way down the brakeman did. I don't know what kind of brakes they had.

Moo

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by Metapelagius:
. A tangent, but the naming of such drainage channels in the Fens has always seemed puzzling - there are 'Sixteen Foot', 'Twenty Foot', 'Forty Foot' and 'Hundred Foot' drains. The figures don't relate to width, depth - and certainly not length. So what do they mean, if anything?

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I think its to do with the difference in height between one end and the other. But I'm not sure. There aren't many places in the flat fens that are a hundred feet aboive sea-level. Wikipedia thinks that the New Bedford River was called the hundred-foot drain because of its width. That doesn't apply to the forty-foot and sixteen-foot though. Maybe some are fall and some are width!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
There were quite a few stations named with "native-sounding" names, and some may even have been of native origin. Petitcodiac, for instance, is named for the river that runs through it, and that name is identifiably connecteed (if not exactly!) to the indigenous name for that river. Apohaqui (obviously pronounced Apa-hawk) is "probably" a Malecit word

But other stations along that line have names such as Plumweseep, Nauwigewauk and Penobsquis which have little resemblance to indigenous words beyond a "feel-good" sound.

Nova Scotia did it a bit better, with quite a few place names being identifiably of native origin, even if the pronunciation is difficult for Imperialists. Musquodoboit, Shubenacadie, Ecum Secum, Tatamagouche, Whycocomagh.. the most ineteresting translation is Stewiacke, which apparently means "whimpering or whining as it goes" when traced back to its origin.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
On the subject of trains, Peterborough has a delightful mix of railways and canals.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:
I wasn't in the area in steam days. But Mangotsfield station is on the Bristol to Bath cycle track as a picturesque ruin. I don't think though that there were platforms on the Bath-Gloucester arc.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:


The Milwaukee Road's Pacific Extension was electrified through the Rockies in Idaho and Montana. The power source was local hydro dams. The Box Cabs and Little Joes, the two types of locomotives in use, famously used regenerative braking and thus a train going downgrade was said to be lifting another train up-grade.

The Milwaukee Road abandoned the Pacific Extension in 1980 and the rails have been lifted.

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quote:

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Originally posted by geroff:
I saw these today, bifurcating viaducts near Chapel-en-le- Frith in the High Peak (Derbyshire), in case anyone is interested.

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The viaduct, or elevated railway, coming out of London Bridge station to the south-east bifurcates repeatedly, fanning out into something like 9 or 10 lines in a couple of miles.

Millwall football stadium is in the cleft between two of them and there are other lines passing it on the other sides so it is not possible to approach the ground without passing under a railway bridge. One path goes under about seven of them in about a quarter of a mile.

Here are some photos of that remarkably welcoming walking route


And Lewisham station, itself built on one of those bifurcating viaducts, is now a sort of almost triangular station because of the new DLR station built underneath the main railway.

And we have some triple-decker bridges - there is one just at the bottom of my garden - the main line from London Bridge into Lewisham splits just after St John's station to send a branch over the street to bypass Lewisham Station and go straight to Ladywell, at the same point as the east-west line coming from Victoria comes in to approach Lewisham, and they cross each other and the main line. It was the site of one of Britains worst railway disasters in 1957 A train hit another and knocked it into the bridge from Nunhead, bringing it down just as another train was about to pass over it. The temporary military bridge they put up afterwards is still there - I can see it from my living room window.
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

Here are some photos of that remarkably welcoming walking route

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Oh, and if you go to Millwall as an away fan and are foolish enough to take a train to Surrey Docks station rather then South Bermondsey, that really is the signposted walking route at the moment. No wonder no-one likes us.

Leeds today...
 

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Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :
 
Millwall 0 Leeds Utd 1
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
Millwall 0 Leeds Utd 1

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quote:

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Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
Millwall 0 Leeds Utd 1

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quote:

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Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
Millwall 0 Leeds Utd 1

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gee D:

quote:

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Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
Millwall 0 Leeds Utd 1

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???????

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gee D:

quote:

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Originally posted by Gee D:

quote:

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Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
Millwall 0 Leeds Utd 1

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???????

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In other words, what does this mean and what does it have to do with trains? Please?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Amorya:
I should probably out myself as the current developer for the UK Train Times iPhone app.

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Amorya:
Take a look at the Amazing Routeing Question for an example!

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Can I out myself as a total geek by saying that the first time I cam across Clive Feather in an online social networking forum was probably the 1980s?

And that, while I have never done anything quite as manic as trying to go from London to Inverness on a Carlisle ticket, only a month ago, in this very year of 2012, I used the return portion of a London to Edinburgh return to travel from Edinburgh Waverley to Glasgow Queen Street - which required me to explain what I was doing to about three railway staff - and then I used the same ticket to get on a Glasgow Central to Birmingham New Street train, which I got off at Preston
 

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Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :
 
The one I nearly tried (plans changed, I didn't wuss out) was going from Leamington to Penzance: on the way down I wanted to meet friends in London and go on the sleeper train, and on the way back I wanted to go as directly and quickly as possible (so changing at Reading).

The correct pair of tickets to buy would be return Leamington to Bicester North and return Bicester North to Penzance, then pay the supplement to get a bunk in the sleeper train.

On the way down, I'd take a train from Leamington to London, which would pass through (and possibly stop at) Bicester North. But on the way back I'd get Reading to Leamington, and it wouldn't even pass through Bicester North. Turns out that there's a clause in there somewhere that states anyone travelling to Bicester can do so via Banbury, so as long as I'm on a train that stops at Banbury I'm sorted.

I didn't really look forward to explaining it to the guard though, even armed with a printout of the rule in question.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amorya:
I should probably out myself as the current developer for the UK Train Times iPhone app.

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---

Awww, thanks
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amorya:

I didn't really look forward to explaining it to the guard though, even armed with a printout of the rule in question.

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quote:

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Customers travelling from Oxford to Crewe and Shrewsbury may travel via Hereford by the last train of the day only.

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...but why would they want to? Are there no trains via Birmingham? Or anywhere else not practially in Wales?
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Customers travelling from Oxford to Crewe and Shrewsbury may travel via Hereford by the last train of the day only.

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...but why would they want to? Are there no trains via Birmingham? Or anywhere else not practially in Wales?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
I thought Mornington Crescent was confined to the London Underground.

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Only if one is already in knid (but not spoon) and inside the Circle. Then there is endless debate about closed stations, use of which may put you in spoon, which puts you in one of those awful Dollis Hill shuttles.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
But Mornington Crescent (the real one) is just outside the Circle Line. Or it was when I was a child.

But, then, the Circle Line is now a lassoo, so who cares?
 

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Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :
 
ISTM that there was an Underground in the UK that was more-or-less circular, but I can't remember if it was Manchester or Glasgow.
 

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Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
Glasgow - aka "The Clockwork Orange" when I was a teenager due to the then livery carried by Strathclyde buses and trains.

Manchester has Metrolink trams which are an amalgam of some old inner suburban railways and street running through the City Centre.

PD
 

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Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
I've never been on it, but wasn't there a time when the cars on the Glasgow underground were pulled round on cables? Also, am I right that it had an odd gauge and no points, so that when a car needed servicing, it was lifted out by a crane?

I think also Glasgow once had steam operated underground sections of surface railways, and engines with condensing apparatus fitted as on London's Underground.
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
You mean the Glasgow Subway

Its still orange, its still narrow-gauge (there wouldn't be room in the tunnels to get any larger), but it now has a connection to the surface.

It was cable-hauled when it was built but I think it was pretty soon upgraded to powered trains.

There are sections of the ordinary railways in Glasgow that are covered over by streets when they pass through the centre of the city and I suppose they would have been steam-powered before electrification.
 

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Posted by Darllenwr (# 14520) on :
 
According to "Underground Railways of the World - their history and development" by H.C.P. Havers (Published 1966), the Glasgow system is a 'single complete oval 6.6 miles in circumference, with 15 stations.' The two tracks are completely separated and there were no interconnections as built, which made the system unique. This may have changed when the system was renovated a few years ago.

It was originally cable hauled, two 1500hp steam engines continually moved a cable through 1700 sheaves between the rails in the tunnels. The leading vehicle of each two-car set had a clamping mechanism which the driver could close onto the cable to set the vehicles in motion. The system operated in this fashion from its opening in December 1896 until 1922, when it closed down due to mounting financial losses.

The Corporation took it over, electifying the system in 1935, using 3rd rail at 600Vdc. As the rail gauge was 4ft, leaving restricted space for traction motors, only one of each pair of cars was fitted with motors. Owing to restricted space at rail level, the conductor rail is mounted quite high. Tunnel diameter is 11 feet, marginally smaller than London (11 ft 8in, expanding to 12ft on curves.)

Have I established my geek credentials, do you think?
 

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Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
Indubitably.

The 'grab the moving cable' idea persists in SanFrancisco trams. I was there in 95, but I guess as a tourist thing, it carries on. I seem to remember the copper jaws on the clamp last for some frighteningly short space of time, and that the wooden brake shoe is applied to the road, or perhaps rail surface!

If this thread progresses in the 'odd traction' direction it is currently taking, we may find ourselves in the area of Brunel, the Samudas, and the Dublin-Dalkey atmospheric railway
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Or even the Spurn Head lighthouse railway - which had at least one wagon or carriage which was wind-powered (with a mast and sail, that is).
 

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Posted by Darllenwr (# 14520) on :
 
I recall reading somewhere (certainly not in the book to which I referred) that the greatest hazard on the Glasgow system during the cable-hauled days was closing the clamp on the joint in the cable, or close to it. Under those conditions, the drive took up very violently, rather than the gentle take up that the drivers could usually achieve, generally jerking all standing passengers off their feet. As there was no way of predicting the approach of the cable joint, I guess this must have happened quite often - not much fun when it did.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
There are sections of the ordinary railways in Glasgow that are covered over by streets when they pass through the centre of the city and I suppose they would have been steam-powered before electrification.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
[...] I rather like this picture of a properly-turned out Pacific and train on an unelectrified line. (You'll have to scroll down to March 30, the second-last one)

I was bemused by the strange mushy cloud of smoke across the top of the smokebox, though. Is that the best the smoke-deflectors could on that class? TBF, I've noticed the same thing in photos of Tornado. Yes, it does keep the smoke out of the driver's eyes, so I guess its OK.

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Wonderful pic! And yes, strange re the mushy smoke cloud. Hmmmm...
 

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Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Indubitably.

The 'grab the moving cable' idea persists in SanFrancisco trams. I was there in 95, but I guess as a tourist thing, it carries on. I seem to remember the copper jaws on the clamp last for some frighteningly short space of time, and that the wooden brake shoe is applied to the road, or perhaps rail surface!

If this thread progresses in the 'odd traction' direction it is currently taking, we may find ourselves in the area of Brunel, the Samudas, and the Dublin-Dalkey atmospheric railway

---

quote:

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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
I seem to remember ... that the wooden brake shoe is applied to the road, or perhaps rail surface!

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quote:

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I happen to be overly fond of the steam railway to Port Erin., My first ride behind a proper steam engine aged 7! I am still a member of the IoMSRSA forty years on!

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quote:

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Originally posted by PD:

Douglas, Isle of Man, had cable trams 1895 to 1929. One of the old cars still survives and takes a battery powered trip along the Prom every once in a while. The town still has horse trams - referred to as "clip-clops" in my family - as well as a Victorian Interurban electric railway to Ramsey and a steam 3' gauge railway to Port Erin. Then there is also the 3'6" gauge lines from Laxey to Snaefell, and 2' through Groudle Glen, nd a 19" gauge line in the Laxey Mines area.

Quite a lot for one small island.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
The Darjeeling & Himalaya was a 2-footer with serious gradients and a complete over-and-under spiral that was well-publicised.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
I seem to remember ... that the wooden brake shoe is applied to the road, or perhaps rail surface!

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I think that track brakes - often magnetic - were quite common for trams, although I believe they were usually used for emergency stops rather than normal service braking. They wouldn't have had wooden shoes, though!

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Toronto streetcars use conventional railway air brakes. They weigh 22 metric tons empty.
 

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Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
Just thought I'd point to the latest newbie Shipmate, 17066, "stationsofthekingscross"... - which one might find rather rail-relevant and rail-romantic, should one be disposed thusly.

Good old class 17 diesels! I'm glad he's preserved here, bearing a remarkable name.

Welcome aboard.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
FGW have done a Jubilee train. I saw this going through Didcot a couple of days ago - I'm hoping at some point to be able to see it close up at Oxford, as it's supposed to be getting around the network. Anyone else seen it in person?
 

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