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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Of Presbyterians and prayerbooks
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
Or my attempt of not hijacking the Parson's Handbook thread.
Over there, I mentioned I'm writing "my own" prayerbook (in Portuguese), picking and adapting prayers and forms from various sources and trying to apply a Reformed theology to the whole thing. (We should come back to this later. Ideas from Eccles sages will always be most welcome!).
It makes me think, however, on how successful can a Presbyterian prayerbook be, in terms of widespread adoption and/or influence.
The 1970 UPCUSA Worshipbook, awful as it was said to be, had the merit of spreading the historical fourfold Ordo, via its Service for the Lord's Day, more widely than previous BCWs ever managed to do, finally supplanting (?) the revivalist hymn sandwich as the main Sunday service. Doubtlessly influential.
Still, the book itself wasn't widely adopted, neither as a hymnal (there being many shacks which hold firmly to the 1955 Hymnbook to this day), nor as a service book.
I believe many shacks held, then, to the traditional-language, Anglican-leaning 1946 BCW for Baptisms and other occasional services, which is [the only case] when most Presby ministers will make the point of having the prayerbook in hand and follow it. 1993 BCW seems to be the most widely adopted book now, anyway.
We could also try and get to know if a Presbyterian prayerbook was ever adopted in the pews, for congregational following and participation. Discardable bulletins with the full service (including music!) seem to be accepted as kosher throughout Presbydom. Couldn't then the idea of pew prayerbooks ever fly, for environment's sake if not for anything else?
Should I fear Jenny Geddes's ghost throwing my chair at me, Poltergeist-like, when I go to bed? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Right lets start with
The book of Common Worship 1993 PCUSA has an order of morning and evening worship with psalms for use with a daily lectionary. Published by Westminster/John Knox Press, and is good for developing your arm muscles. I have just found that the print it separately as well
The URC publication "Worship from the URC" has an order of morning and evening worship.
Iona community does as well, but the morning is more standard than the evening, I am not really familiar with the Wee Worship Book but am with the main Abbey one.
Then there are two resources here.
More individual but a classic A Diary of Private Prayer by John Baillie.
There is even an Anabaptist Prayer book
There are a couple more resources.
I suspect the Church of Scotlands book of common order does not have daily prayer but I do not have a copy so am not sure.
Jengie
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
It might also be worth looking up Knox's 'Book of Common Order' (c.1560) on the internet as that will give you an authentically Reformed shape for the liturgy. As I understand it, the usual form of service was used both for 'the Dry Service' and for the Eucharist, on weekdays as well as on the Lord's Day.
PD
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I have written my own prayer book for personal use and suspect I am in the process of writing a substantially different one. I will check and see if the old one is on a disk drive at work if people are interested but I don't hold out much hope.
Jengie
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Right lets start with
The book of Common Worship 1993 PCUSA has an order of morning and evening worship with psalms for use with a daily lectionary. Published by Westminster/John Knox Press, and is good for developing your arm muscles. I have just found that the print it separately as well
The URC publication "Worship from the URC" has an order of morning and evening worship.
Iona community does as well, but the morning is more standard than the evening, I am not really familiar with the Wee Worship Book but am with the main Abbey one.
Then there are two resources here.
More individual but a classic A Diary of Private Prayer by John Baillie.
There is even an Anabaptist Prayer book
There are a couple more resources.
I suspect the Church of Scotlands book of common order does not have daily prayer but I do not have a copy so am not sure.
Jengie
No, the current Book of Common Order does have "A Daily Service". It also has "An Order for Daily Devotion: Morning and Evening" intended to be used by individuals, families or other small groups.
Maxwell's edition of Knox's 1556 Genevan Service Book (the basis of the 1560 BCO) has the Sunday service, but makes no mention of anything for weekdays.
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
Thanks for the input, folks!
I understand it was Calvin's custom to use the same service order for both the Lord's Day and weekday services. Looks like the difference was the use of set prayers in the Lord's Day and extempore or especially prepared prayers on weekdays. Or so saith Baird.
I think having the Antecommunion-based hymn sandwich everyday (and as every single service the church holds) is a bit of an overkill. Even if it is the current practice across the spectrum in Brazilian Presbyterianism. Except for the many shacks which have already replaced it with P&W-Sermon-Benediction, of course.
So I intend to have a Daily Office section in my book, with Morning and Evening Prayer, based on the 1993 BCW, 1662, 1928 and 1979 BCPs, and Lutheran (IELB and IECLB) Matins and Vespers. The local Anglican book is an abridged version of 1979 with a very strong A-C flavour, so I'll just pass it by. I'll have to take a look at the books Jengie Jon recommended, especially Webber's!
Besides its ideal daily use in the church and at home, I'll recommend the Daily Office for use as the opening devotions for Sunday School and Session and Presbytery meetings. The first service for Presbytery, Synod and GA meetings should be the Eucharist, though.
I've already taken a shot on some rites in the last four years, which are all pending revision:
1. The Divine Liturgy, an Eucharistic form based on the BCW, English and American BCPs, the American Lutheran 1917 Common Service, RCA, CRCNA and French Reformed forms.
I've thrown in a Protestantised version of the Orthodox Litany for Peace for good measure as a solemn alternative to the threefold Kyrie Eleison, just after the Collect for Purity and before the General Confession.
Eucharistic Prayer I is 1928 BCP's, translated, with an added Preface for the Feast of the Protestant Reformation by yours truly.
2. Solemnization of Marriage, in two rites. Rite I is a full Nuptial "Mass" based on the Divine Liturgy. Rite II is your average simple wedding service.
Sources were the same as the DL's above, plus some Roman Catholic alternative prayers. Most of the prayers and blessings have four alternatives, from Anglican, Presbyterian, Lutheran and Reformed sources.
3. Christian Initiation, with forms for Infant Baptism, Adult Baptism + Confirmation/Public Profession of Faith and a simple Reception of Members by Letter of Transfer. I've been thinking about adding a form for the Renewal of Baptismal Vows, for use in the appropriate liturgical seasons and following the restoration to communion of persons under disciplinary penalties.
Sources were the same as the DL. But I think combining the Preparation for Baptism from the RCA with the BCW's Baptismal service (including a Prayer of Thanksgiving over the water which goes over the aquatic themes of the entire history of salvation) made the service too long and overloaded with words. Which is a very Presbyterian thing, I believe...
4. The Ordinal, with a full DL for the Ordination of Ministers of Word and Sacrament, a simpler rite for the Ordination of Elders and Deacons, one for the Licensing of Preachers (our "transitional diaconate") and another for the Commissioning of lay Missionaries and Evangelists.
We could go over all of them together, should it be happen to be fun for you guys!
Wow, long post. Got carried away, sorry! ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
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Berwickshire
Shipmate
# 15761
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Posted
I don’t know if a Scottish “take” on this is relevant but it seems to me that presbyterianism and the conventicle are not the least of Scotland’s gifts to the world.
Dr Knox was born and brought up with prayer books (the new-printed Aberdeen Breviary). There were thousands of Missals available, new printings and old manuscripts. Dr Knox’s claim to fame was the systematic destruction of Scotland’s liturgical and cultural heritage. The authentic presbyterian genius is, surely, to burn prayer books rather than hand them out to a congregation.
The famous Jenny Geddes you opened with seems to have based her contribution to the enhancement of the liturgy of the church in Scotland less on the contents of the Dean of Edinburgh’s book than the mere fact that it was a book in the first place. The authentic presbyterian tradition Mistress Geddes knew and loved was for a minister to go off extempore: there is a wonderful collection of “Scotch presbyterian eloquence” to illustrate the genre. The sacred stool of the Blessed Jenny has long been exposed as a relic for the veneration of presbyterian pilgrims to Edinburgh.
In the tradition Dr Knox grew up in, public worship was divided between the minister and the parish clerks, they being the only people likely to be able to sing from a book in a generally illiterate society but with all sorts of popular rituals for congregational participation. Dr Knox seems to have done his best to end laywomen's participation entirely and stamp on laymen by reducing the choir to one, producing the classic presbyterian dialogue between minister and a single clerk, while the populace had edification thrust upon them.
Dr Knox’s own immortal contribution to the world’s liturgies, the “Book of Common Order” is no sort of congregational book. Those who have just suggested it might be any idea to look to that “wee bookie” for congregational use can hardly have read it. It is 265 pages long and, when the long-awaited “THE END” eventually comes in sight, that liturgical explicit comes 235 pages too late. The Communion goes on for pages without so much as an “Amen” out of the mute congregation. Marriage manages 30 words for the contracting parties to offer while the interminable ministerial voice draws breath. The sick are “visited” without adding one word to the minister’s monologue of visitation. The only service in the “wee” bookie which gets near dialogue is the “ordination” where a Monstrous Regiment of Ministers talk among themselves. There was always the danger that over and above the Book of Monologues a minister might be taken with delerium extemporens, should the spirit so move his heart. Fairly got old Jenny going that did. The best a congregation, as such, is ever allowed is a couple of psalms, when they get to repeat the metrical dirges the clerk “lines out”.
The sad news is that the authentic Presbyterian genius is (a) to burn the people’s books and (b) for one individual to make congregational worship as near impossible as may be. Dozing quietly is the traditional refuge from Scotch presbyterian eloquence, or to escape to the ‘piskies. If it is congregational worship you want, get back to the catholic books. ECUSA (the “P” in “PECUSA” is silent) will help. Dreamer is the perfect guide: numquam reformata quia numquam deformata.
So no need to say sorry if a presbyterian minister goes on too much, that is just that scoundrel Knox's bad influence, easily repented of. Sorry if I have taken up the conventicle’s time, not to their edification.
Posts: 57 | From: Eastern Europe | Registered: Jul 2010
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Episcoterian:
The I don't know if Divine Liturgy translates well in Portuguese, but "Divine Service for the Celebration of the Lord's Supper" would probably not scare the horses so much. It's a more Presby phrasing, at least in English.
On baptism, I heartily recommend the Reformed Church of France's baptismal blessing, said after the act itself and before the walkabout (another practice I heartily recommend).
For you, little child, Jesus Christ has come, he has fought, he has suffered. For you he entered into the shadows of Gethsemane and the terror of Calvary; for you he uttered the cry ‘it is finished.’ For you he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, and there for you he intercedes. For you, even though you do not yet know it yet, little child, but in this way the Word of the Gospel is made true, "We love Him because He first loved us."
This was used at the baptism of my niece two weeks ago, Ma Preacher loved it. This blessing is becoming very popular in Reformed/Presby circles and frequently appears in English-language service revisions.
I intend to get it put into the United Church of Canada's service book at the next revision, likely in the next 15 years or so.
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
Episcoterian, you might like to have a look at this resource for your section on the renewal of baptismal vows:
Liturgy for the Reaffirmation of Baptismal Vows.
The liturgy itself is simple enough, but it was developed by the Joint Commission on Doctrine of the Church of Scotland and the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland, with input also from the Scottish Episcopal Church. It is therefore a truly ecumenical resource, and has been used to very moving effect in joint worship.
As the preamble says, the liturgy "is gladly offered for use beyond the bounds of the two denominations on any ecumenical occasion when it is appropriate to recall and reaffirm our baptism." So you are very welcome to it. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
Berkwickshire, your historical analysis is, of course, accurate.
Calvin's liturgy, and Knox's own, were little more than long, dull, catechetical monologues by the minister. Apart from Psalm singing, the only vocal parts by the people were the Creed and the Lord's Prayer and, after Westminster, often not even those.
You said it correctly: the responses in the medieval Mass were sung by the choir or said by a clerk. If the Lutherans and Anglicans opted for giving the clerk's parts to the people, the Reformed decided to have the minister say them all.
But was this the best choice? Were they correct in their reasoning, whatever that was? Are we obliged to stick with it for ever, world without end? And, should one be fed up with the dull monologue, is swimming the Thames or the Rhine the only legitimate way?
Responsive liturgies have gradually found their way back into Presbyterian worship during the last century, to the point that a printed bulletin with the full service raises no objection whatsoever, even if the Great Prayer of Thanksgiving is prayed during the Lord's Supper.
I'm just trying to take things to their next logical step and save a few trees in the process. If bulletins are acceptable, why not a prayerbook? (provided there be room for extempore prayer and several options for the execution of the services, as the Rev. David Bannerman suggests in Worship of the Presbyterian Church).
SPK, I am familiar with this blessing, and will give it serious consideration in the Infant Baptism revision. I might do it first, instead of the Communion Service (the name of which is still open for debate; "Divine Liturgy" sounds too capital-O Orthodox in almost any language!).
Is the walkabout you refer to the minister's fetching the infant and taking it for a stroll through the nave? The current form includes it when there's a single child to be baptised, and an exchange between minister and congo when the former reaches mid-nave. I don't quite know how to do it with multiple children, without making the service too long. Any ideas?
Cottontail, thanks for the link! I loved the service! Might have to hack it a bit so it fits within Holy Communion, but I will also bring it as a stand-alone service!
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Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Yes, that walkabout. My niece didn't go on one as she was one of four infants we were baptizing that day (my congregation's crop of children and grandchildren runneth over!) as the minister thought it would take too long. We had lots of visitors there so he was mindful of being brief, the service clearly had to wind down by the hour mark.
If you have ideas for multiple families on walkabout I'm all ears.
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Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Yes, that walkabout. My niece didn't go on one as she was one of four infants we were baptizing that day (my congregation's crop of children and grandchildren runneth over!) as the minister thought it would take too long. We had lots of visitors there so he was mindful of being brief, the service clearly had to wind down by the hour mark.
If you have ideas for multiple families on walkabout I'm all ears.
I've never had this very nice problem! But I have duly pondered it, and can see a few possibilities.
If geography allows, just lead them on a procession round the church. Or take them up and down the aisle as the congregation sings the Aaronic blessing, or some longer hymn. Each can carry their own baby.
Alternatively, give a baby each to an elder - preferably the elder for the family in question - or perhaps to a church member or sponsor (who could be the godparent in some circumstances). That way the procession can be a bit more manageable than leading entire families up and down. Obviously, prepare everyone in advance for this!
One other possibility is to hand each baby to the elder in question directly upon its baptism, and send the elder to stand in the body of the kirk while the minister does the next one! Do that with each child in turn, so that they are all standing somewhere in the aisles when it comes to the singing of the blessing.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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Berwickshire
Shipmate
# 15761
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Posted
Episcoterian:
Catholic is best: Quapropter securus judicat orbis terrarum, bonos non esse qui se dividunt ab orbe terrarum, in quacumque parte orbis terrarium; the world as a whole is sure in this judgement, those who divide themselves off from the universal come to no good, whatever little corner they inhabit.
None of the sixteenth-century choices was “best”, none was even good. But all the choices were controlled by the fact that even books printed on paper were seriously expensive and few could read. The catholic genius had been to do and sing, not to say. What else Knox destroyed was buildings, ornaments, colour and books which had been the props of a theatre of understanding for an illiterate people: bells and smells. The Annunciation-Nativity cycle. The Lent-Whitsun cycle, “Great Fast”, ending with Holy Week. A bejewelled codex held aloft to let people behold the glory of the word made manifest amongst them. I could go on (and often do) but dear old Percy Dreamer had it right, the sooner we ditch this protestant nonsense and get back where we all came from the better. The Sarum mass as performed was a sight better understanded of the people that either Trent or these dire Protestant monologues ever were. Never mind the Thames or Rhine let’s see what they are up to in the Tiber and (if it doesn’t bring too much anti-Russian ire down on my head) the Volga.
With a multi-lingual congregation and a catholic style of liturgical worship there is nothing else for it but weekly leaflets: simple books soon get boring and no congregation outside a theological college ever found its way through “Common Worship’s” options. With a leaflet, “been” is “been”. Speak and my “bean” is his “bin”, which is where I put the rubbish and she puts the trash. Native-speakers can just about understand each other, learners have no hope. I don’t really think feminist “Four Bears” make much more sense to children than chauvinist “Four Fathers”. A weekly leaflet is essential: sling in the bi-lingual lessons and anyone can read and everyone can follow. Put in the hymns and that’s another book you don’t need and you can pull hymns from anywhere. I would never fret about trees: forestry, papermaking and recycling help the economy go round. E-mail a weekly PDF and you can keep people feeling in touch, prompt the wavering to come and give the subscribers their money’s worth. Do it Slavonic-English with John I:1-14 and they can take it home and learn 9 different Slavonic declensions and 5 English determiners. Make the visit worthwhile, add value. Never know your luck they might study the texts. For my money go for leaflets over books but get away from Dr Knox as far and as fast as possible. Scotland drew the short straw with that one.
We never can be too catholic. Gather enough discarded leaflets and you can burn the obnoxious old bigot in effigy and smell the sulphur, or sulfur as the case may be.
And speaking of brimstone, Сын проповедника трезв, (you know who you are) sorry if I have poked my unwelcome little Slavophile head into your innocent “Presbyterian thread”. Some uppity natives just don’t respect Reservations these days. But then again with Reservation you never can be too catholic.
Posts: 57 | From: Eastern Europe | Registered: Jul 2010
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Berwickshire:
You do know that the Scots Reformation was a people's movement, right? It was a bottom-up affair. It also led to the creation of universal public education in Scotland in the 1600's, centuries before anywhere else in Europe.
Jenny Geddes was as common as they came and the riot she started was based on popular support.
Should you wish to relive the Scots Reformation, the appropriate venue is Purgatory if you wish civil discussion, Hell if you desire full and frank discussion.
Otherwise your contributions here have been entirely unproductive, belligerent in tone and unappreciated.
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Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
Only one point I'd like to make in Knox's favour. His First Book of Discipline (1560), as quoted by Bannerman (1884, p. 8), read:
quote:
Lest that the Word of God and ministration of the Sacraments by unseemliness of the place come in contempt, of necessity it is that the Kirk and place where the people ought publicly to convene be with expedition repaired, (...) and have such preparation within as appertaineth as well to the majesty of the Word of God, as unto the ease and commodity of the people.
I don't think the destruction of churches went well with his own views.
I'm all for a simple, dignified catholicity in worship, allowing for the full, active and conscient participation of both clergy and people.
But I also appreciate and value the richness of diversity between all different catholic (indeed, Christian) traditions and their rites (or lack of), be they traditional Pentecostal, happy-clappy Charismatics, suit-and-tie Bible-thumping Baptists, robe-and-stole Presbymethegationalists, surplice-and-tippet lowchurchmen, chazzie-wearing MOTRs, precious lace-and-fiddleback'ers, full-tat Orthodoxen and everyone inbetween.
So I'd never presume to tell anyone of them they should catholic up (wow, a new verb!), if that meant ironing out all the rich diversity they add to the Mystical Body of Our Lord.
So, I'm glad to be a Reformed Catholic, or, as SPK puts it, a devout Scoto-Catholic (even if my Presby heritage is anything but Scottish).
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Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
I did up a Sung Communion Service for use in my own church, the UCCan hymn book has sung settings for the Gloria, Sanctus & Benedictus, Great Amen, etc., not that we ever use them. It was a challenge waiting for me just to put them into the proper context.
Such singing of well-known and scriptural phrases seems especially suited to such as Easter. On a bright and sunny Easter of course you want to sing at celebration of the Lord's Supper. You start the service with a blast of song and you don't stop.
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Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
SPK: (Responding to your post at 00:21)
Let the hosts do the hosting, OK?
Thank you,
Mamacita, Eccles Host
[ 04. May 2012, 01:34: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Berwickshire:
I see that, with 33 posts spread across 2 years, you don't have much experience posting in Ecclesiantics. Let me strongly suggest that you do the following:
- Read the 10 Commandments (10CCs) and the FAQs, both of which are accessible with links at the top of your page.
- Pay attention to the section headed "Board Culture." Read, mark, and inwardly digest the differences between the boards. In Ecclesiantics, we work very hard to keep an atmosphere where contributions from all religious points of view are welcome. In other words, slagging off other faiths isn't welcome here, which means that paying attention to the phrasing of one's posts is essential.
- There's an English-only policy on all the Boards. If you must post a phrase in a language not understanded of the English-speaking peoples, please provide a translation. We cut a little slack here in Eccles for commonly-known, liturgically-oriented phrases (which means the occasional deo gratias will not get pounced on), but using the Cyrillic alphabet gets the Hosts irritated.
Many thanks.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
Voices United at least has some Communion settings and further service music. You can teach the people. (I'm thinking about translating them ever since I bought the book).
Novo Cântico's service music section has one Offertory response ("All things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee") and three Amens (Danish threefold, a fourfold and a sevenfold by Stainer). And that's it.
There are also, scattered through the book, two Gloria Patrii (Meineke and Greatorex), one Sanctus (Stainer) and one (non-metrical) Te Deum (William Jackson).
Of all these, only the Danish threefold Amen is regularly used throughout Presbydom, after the final Benediction (ordinarily, the Grace; Aaronic Blessing in solemn occasions).
I've heard the Gloria Patri sang in both tunes. The Sanctus and especially the Te Deum never seem to see the light of the day.
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"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
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Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
Sorry to doublepost. I've lost the edit window.
NC's Sanctus is John Bacchus Dyke's, not Stainer's.
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"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
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Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Episcoterian:
Sorry to doublepost. I've lost the edit window.
NC's Sanctus is John Camidge's, not Stainer's.
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"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
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Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
You bought it? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Wow. You are committed. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Just overlook some of their more cringe-worthy edits. I hope to reverse what they did to #541 next revision.
If you don't have much in your hymnal, why not add a Music Supplement to your project that can be used by organists, other musicians and congregations. Words for the minister, music for the people. It would get more people that just ministers interested in it if you get musicians hooked.
I'm trying to get my congregation started on Communion Setting B. We might try that next time we host Presbytery as the Minister likes to do odd things for Presbytery. He and Presbytery have a complicated relationship.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I have participated in a fully sung Reformed Communion, it was also Charismatic!
Seriously if you are looking for musical settings for bits of liturgy then places like Taize and Iona are good bets, plus Paul Bateman seems to have Reformed connections and to write pieces. The URC hymnbook has a Kyrie, Gloria, Agnus Dei and Lord I am not worthy by him. Erik Routley has composed a Sanctus, I suspect he did more.
Another Reformed composer is Peter Cutts but I have not traced any of his settings of the liturgy.
Jengie
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Actually given his works list Paul Bateman definitely has URC connections. Therefore it does make it rather odd that his first work in 1974 seems to be a "Rock Mass".
If you want something more esoteric then John Tavener also has Reformed connections, and some would argue that while a person may leave the Reformed tradition, it is not so easy for the Reformed tradition to leave the person. Certainly he is one of those who I picked up before I knew this connection.
Jengie
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Berwickshire
Shipmate
# 15761
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Posted
Episcoterian
“Only one point I'd like to make in Knox's favour. His First Book of Discipline (1560), as quoted by Bannerman (1884, p. 8), read: ‘Lest that the Word of God and ministration of the Sacraments by unseemliness of the place come in contempt, of necessity it is that the Kirk and place where the people ought publicly to convene be with expedition repaired, (...) and have such preparation within as appertaineth as well to the majesty of the Word of God, as unto the ease and commodity of the people.’ I don't think the destruction of churches went well with his own views.”
Yes, although the Victorian edition has been superseded, in all essentials you are right. It is an interesting passage and repays consideration. Dr Knox is stating an axiom: it would be curious indeed for Christian ministers to advocate the destruction of churches. Severe damage had been caused by Anglo-Scottish wars to e.g. Berwickshire’s (often thatched) churches. Given Dr Knox never advocated destruction, the stubborn fact remains that, somehow or other Scotland’s medieval churches have largely disapperaed while (Episcopalian) England’s have, very largely, survived.
Dr Knox preached only against “idolatry”. He preached, however, to what he called (not without wry affection) a “rascal multitude” and to his professed horror they misunderstood the sermon. He repeated it several times in different places and it still had much the same effect each time. I may well be in deep trouble for using Scots rather than the Standard English Dr Knox did so much to foster (as in your quotation), but Scots was the speech of his rascal multitude. They, for example, “gaed to Sanct Androis, daug the cathedral doun, gowden pyx, tunakyls and dalmatyks rippt up wi sic disgraces”. Rascals!
At a guess, you read “Kirk and place where the people ought publicly to convene” as meaning “church”. In context, it probably reflects convening in the naves (the parishioners’ financial responsibility) as distinct from the chancels (the parson or appropriator’s charge). Dr Knox was struggling to impose a revolution in the teeth of much popular and aristocratic opposition and the “teinds” (tithes) were already some 92% appropriated - and still in catholic and/or aristocratic hands. The revolutionaries were lucky to extract 15-20%. With catholic worship proscribed under fierce penalties, it followed liturgically redundant chancels were unsupportable except as aristocratic pews or (often in Scotland) burial places.
Architectural thinking is that liturgical, altar-focused, worship operates best in a long-ish oblong (2.2: 1) for “mystery” and popular processions. Radical, minister-focused worship does best in a square-ish box (1.2:1) with a vast pulpit-cum-clerk’s desk facing the gentry in a the chancel or gallery, separate from a hoi polloi condemned to “the view from the pew”. Unwashed bodies, in woolen clothes, in a wet climate cannot have been pleasant for a purely static service of any length – catholic incense had a fumigatory more than ritual purpose.
The process of destruction was probably for the rascal mob to try first to loot or destroy liturgical “kit”, while a still-catholic majority attempted to rescue something and, ultimately, spirit it safely abroad to the Scots colleges: Dr Knox’s dry observation was that one got rid of rooks (black monks and priests) by fouling their nests. The altars stripped, chancels fell into disuse and it made sense to demolish naves and construct square preaching chambers out of the rubble, with galleries for the gentry. Little that is medieval survived (and much of that is heavy Victorian restoration). The tale of presbytery and prayer books.
Cultural theory is developing interesting perspectives on liturgical developments. What attracted my attention to this thread was your (to me) extraordinary linking of Presbyterianism and Prayer Books. I was not the first, as it happens, to mention Dr Knox in this thread. More curious still: Knox even remotely connected with prayer books for popular participation! Oddly enough one can venture an approximate calculation of the impact of historical presbyerianism on Scottish prayerbooks, few enough of which survived at home but some of which were preserved in England or in the flotsam of Scots colleges abroad. Present survival against contemporary inventories has been estimared at a maximum in any known case of 8%. Studies put present survivors at some 300 codices (give or take). The number of churches has been put at 1300. Assume 20 volumes as the basic “kit” for liturgical requirements and thus only 300 of some 26,000 have survived. Cultural attrition of approximately 98%.
I am pretty certain iconoclasm was at the back of it: Knox (like Stalin) was a clerk of the old order and such a background is liable, on embracing new doctrines, to produce furious and iconoclastic revolutionaries: I’ll resist the obvious Slavonic comment, roughly, that Uncle Joe’s own hands were always kept clean. The KGB were his rascals.
It is interesting that, even though the old denominational myths may linger in some quarters, presbytery is moving to prayer book. From my perspective, in practice that must bear more than a passing resemblance to moving "back" to a lost past.
Considering the hour, I’ll resist the temptation of a sinful Cyrillic ******* and transliterate Gudnaĭt.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Berwickshire,
You seem to have problems with the directions made by my esteemed fellow host in her post above. The rules of the ship require posts to be made in English or for passages in other languages to be provided with translations. Some of our shipmates do not have English as a first language and this is a courtesy to them.
As you seem to be fairly new, I don't want to be overly harsh but let me draw your attention to Commandment 6 of the Ship's 10 Commandments: Respect the Crew. When a host or admin posts directions, guidance or a specific ruling then that is to be followed and we will take a dim view of griping or sideways objections. If you wish to query any ruling you may contact one of the hosts by PM (hosts are listed at the top of each board) or you may raise the matter by starting a thread in the Styx.
I hope that that is clear.
seasick, Ecclesiantics host
[ 05. May 2012, 07:26: Message edited by: seasick ]
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
One of the strongest parts of our Common Order is the section on funeral liturgies. Are you thinking of including some of these in your book?
As well as outlining two full Orders for funerals, the red book also includes an Order for use in Distressing Circumstances, an Order for the Funeral of a Child, and an Order for the Funeral of a Still-born Child,. Very usefully, it also has a range of suggested prayers for different circumstances, such as after a wasting illness, after violence, and after a suicide.
I positively clung to Common Order for my first year or so of funerals, and found that it sees you right in most circumstances. (Although it goes a bit mad around the Committal, suggesting a final hymn BEFORE the Committal, which works if all are then traipsing out of the church to the graveside, but not where everything is happening within the same Crematorium service.) The orders and prayers are tremendously well-written, and the various suggestions can be mixed and matched and personalised.
One thing it does lack, though, is an order for a home funeral, or for prayers in the home before the funeral. This is tradition in some parts of Scotland, which can mean that on the day of the funeral there are in fact three services: prayers in the home, then the church service, and then the service at the crematorium (which is often the only part of the funeral many people will get to, so they can't just be fobbed off with a 5 minute committal!) On the few occasions I have done this, I have felt myself simply running out of things to say! So if anyone has a liturgy for a home funeral or prayers, I would be grateful to be pointed in its direction.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Tangent alert
quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire
Given Dr Knox never advocated destruction, the stubborn fact remains that, somehow or other Scotland’s medieval churches have largely disappeared while (Episcopalian) England’s have, very largely, survived.
Cultural difference perhaps, but how sure are you that medieval poverty might not have more to do with it? There are a lot of 'Airfix' churches in rural Wales that are very obviously on ancient sites, but where most, if not all, of the stonework looks nineteenth century. Outside medievally rich areas like East Anglia, the Cotswolds or parts of Yorkshire, many medieval churches were small and grubby. What you see in England was largely rebuilt in the nineteenth century according to 'best' gothic principles. Eighteenth century England and Wales had a very different attitude to ancient buildings, which was less adulatory of the medieval past and much more similar to Scotland's.
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
It's true that by and large the medieval churches of Scotland were not as grand as many in England.It's also true that in the Presbyterian form of worship there was absloutely no need for a grand church.All that was needed was an area large enough for a preacher to be heard.There were no microphones in these days.The old cathedral of St Mungo in Glasgow,as well as the High Kirk of St Giles in Edinburgh are two of the larger churches to survive more or leas intact,but were divided into smaller churches,only being restored as one church in the course of the 19th century.
Paisley Abbey is another church which has survived but in most cases the local community would worship in one part of the church leaving the rest to fall down, as was the case with Melrose Abbey and Jedburgh Abbey before the ruins of the building caused the community to leave the medieval building completely and build another.
It's also the case that there was,and perhaps still is,little of the sense of the sacred attached to buildings,in the Presbyterian form of Christianity,though what sense of the sacred which was left caused the ruins of medieval churches to be used as graveyards.
At least as far as the Presbyterian Reformation in Scotland is concerned there was little deliberate destruction of churches,apart from some 'cleansing of idolatry'.The pitiful ruins of St Andrew's cathedral do not speak of deliberate destruction,but simply of indifference and neglect,lack of pride in a building which could not but remind people of the Catholic past.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Berwickshire
Shipmate
# 15761
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Posted
No tangent alert: comes well inside P&P
Enoch,
Cultural difference perhaps, but how sure are you that medieval poverty might not have more to do with it? While wealth (and poverty) are, as you rightly suggest, always reflected in worship, a recent AHRC project suggests medieval Scotland was not invariably poorer than England. “Benchmarking” at QUB ranks the Archdeaconry of Lothian, shilling-per-square-mile, behind East Anglia but equal to the Home Counties, with Boston the second but Berwick fifth-richest “British” or Irish port. Far from small and grubby, seventeen Lothian churches exceed benchmark by a factor of ten or more: expect up to 17 first-rate presbyteries and 17 sets of prayer books to survive. Ceteris paribus (if the expression be allowed) one ought to be able to sift out culture and accident in survival patterns from the actual figures: accuracy not adulation.
What you see: for liturgical presbyteries, RCAHMS lists 1 of the 17 chancels as substantially medieval and still in use for worship. Ceteris paribus Leicestershire should be using no more than 1 in 17 of its greater medieval choirs: not remotely what Pevsner lists. For prayer books, Lothian’s best survival rate is 8% of inventory; for the English north-east, 37%. Pfaff accepts only one surviving Scottish book as liturgically significant. Best guesses put pre-1560 books at 1:10 Scottish to English and Pfaff knows the field: ceteris paribus his study should have found no more than 11 equally-significant English texts to discuss.
… a very different attitude to ancient buildings … less adulatory of the medieval past and much more similar to Scotland's. Different cultural forces are in play but, every which place, old buildings either fall or are cast down. Any disproportionate Scottish tendency to fall over suggests some disproportionate Scots tend to push: Knox’s rascal multitude “gaed to Sanct Androis, daug the cathedral doun.” Old books wither or are driven away. Liturgical parchment’s natural predators are damp and rodents (sheepskin makes for edible bedding) so, 37:8, either England is four times as damp as Scotland or its rodents were on a diet: Knox’s rascals “tunakyls and dalmatyks rippt”. By their figures ye shall know them. Scotland is sadly impoverished but it was not always poor. Ceteris paribus it is the mere figures, not glory, laud nor honour, which all point the one way: the cultural impact was bad in England but, ceteris paribus, catastrophic in Scotland.
The past is gone but we can learn from it liturgically (and in liturgical music), moving backwards and/or forwards. If we stick to facts rather than denominational myths, we can render tribute where due, honour to whom honour. Study liturgical custom and most Scots see – some more willingly than others - to whom fear is the due render.
Posts: 57 | From: Eastern Europe | Registered: Jul 2010
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
Ceteris paribus (if the expression be allowed)
No it is not allowed.
You have already been asked politely TWICE to either post in English or to provide a translation.
Take this as an official warning: Once more and you'll be fish food!
Spike
SoF Admin
[ 06. May 2012, 17:53: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Hostly Blue Scarf ON
Here is a reminder as to the topic of this thread:
quote:
[...] I'm writing "my own" prayerbook (in Portuguese), picking and adapting prayers and forms from various sources and trying to apply a Reformed theology to the whole thing. (We should come back to this later. Ideas from Eccles sages will always be most welcome!). It makes me think, however, on how successful can a Presbyterian prayerbook be, in terms of widespread adoption and/or influence.
Thank you to those who have made the many good, on-topic contributions to this thread.
However. If you want to pursue any discussion of English/Scottish history, church architecture, inventory of historical prayer books, or anything else that does not directly address the OP, take it elsewhere.
Hostly Blue Scarf Off
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
Cottontail, there certainly will be a Funeral section.
As with the Wedding Service, there shall be two main rites for use in the church, a Requiem "Mass" and a dry funeral. There'll also be a committal service for graveside/crematorium.
There shall be optional prayers and texts for those specially stressful deaths, but I don't think they require full services of their own.
In Brazil there's a peculiarity, though. Church funerals are becoming increasingly rare. Most often, a 10-minute service without music ends a night-long wake in a public mourning room, ("velório") within or beside the cemetery.
Roman Catholics may have masses said on the deceased's behalf later. On the Protestant side, though, if a church service hasn't been held with the body present, there certainly won't be a memorial in its absence either, which is a shame.
Home funerals, common in prior centuries, have vanished entirely since the advent of aforementioned velórios. To our loss, I believe. Death, instead of a natural, if sometimes sad, part of everyday life, is being (has been) pushed out of it into pastel-coloured, barren secular buildings, devoid of any religious consideration whatsoever, to become something we don't ever think or talk about. And so, we've forgotten how to handle it. (And don't get me started on webcast wakes).
But I digress. A Christian's funeral service (and pre-service wake, if any) should be in church, and it's proper and laudable that it be a Communion service.
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"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
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Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
The various pastoral prayers in Celebrate God's Presence: A Book of Services are along the line of the Kirk's practice, and a similar benefit to those who simply need a hand.
Have you given any thought to some prayer or pastoral directions for Elders engaged in pastoral visits?
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Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Episcoterian, I can't speak of Brazil at all but, in the US, I do firmly believe that Presbyterians could potentially work well with a hymnal that includes a more comprehensive liturgical section.
I think it would end up being used like the United Methodist hymnal: churches use the bulletin for the usual calls to worship and unison prayers, but turn to the liturgy in the hymnal for the Great Thanksgiving at communion.
I would keep it short and sweet. Provide just enough so that the congregation has what they need, and so that any unenthusiastic cleric has just what he needs. For those clergy who are a bit more enthusiastic about liturgy, provide a more comprehensive, but totally optional, altar book.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
Has Presbyterianism, or have parts of it, given up on metrical psalters? I gather that wouldn't be part of a modern Presbyterian worship book, but I'd love to find out I'm wrong about that.
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
Oblatus, I can't answer for Presbyterianism elsewhere, but around here, metric Psalms have never been an important part of our worshipping identity.
When the first missionary set foot on these shores, the English hymn and revival gospels were the order of the day. They are actually treated as one and the same thing, all considered to be equally hinos (as opposed to cânticos, which are p&w choruses).
We have twenty or so metric Psalms and other biblical texts in our hymnal, but all scattered around the book under various subject headings.
There are a handful of radicals in the Northeast which advocate a capella exclusive Psalmody and are trying to prepare a Brazilian Psalter based on the Genevan book.
I wish them all the best, but, "from attending their services (and listening to their singing), deliver me, Good Lord"!
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"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
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Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Metrical psalms were big in the Presby tradition until the late 19th century. One wedge between the Kirk and the (Wee) Free Kirk was the issue of hymns. The former gradually adopted them, the latter allowed hymns only rcently.
<tangent>
FWIW, High Anglicans were psalmody only until the 1810s and 20s when hymns began to creep in mainly in the form of 'cleaned up' versions of mediaeval hymns, and carefully selected Methodist and Evangelical texts. The first hymnbook in my home parish consisted of all 150 Psalms in Tate and Brady's 'New Version' (metrical) and about 100 hymns mainly from ancient sources.
</tangent>
PD
[ 09. May 2012, 05:09: Message edited by: PD ]
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My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Psalms have a sad-and-happy history in the UCCan. The original Hymnary of 1930 introduced Anglican Chant settings mixed with metrical settings. Anglican Chant never took off as a musical tradition in the United Church and it led to a decline in psalmnody. The next hymn book, the Hymn Book of 1970, produced jointly with the Anglicans in expectation of a merger, had very few psalms in it. It was expected that these would be placed in a new Prayerbook for the merged church but the merger never took place and the book never came out.
When our current hymn book, Voices United was being compiled, the number one request received from general congregations, from ministers and music leaders was that there be a proper psalter. As such, the 700's and early 800's are a full psalter with responsive psalms and metrical versions, often from the Scots Psalter but sometimes with newer songs. The later 800's are canticles.
We're much happier with the psalm selection now and sing out of the psalter happily. You can take Dumfermline, the Old Hundredth and the Old 134th out of our cold, dead hands!
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Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Metrical psalms were big in the Presby tradition until the late 19th century. One wedge between the Kirk and the (Wee) Free Kirk was the issue of hymns. The former gradually adopted them, the latter allowed hymns only recently.
PD
The first edition of the CoS Church Hymnary (c.1900) came bound up with the metrical psalter, tunes suggested for every psalm. The second (c.1930) also had the complete psalter, but with an index of psalms/portions 'most suitable for use in public worship' - which suggests that the remainder were judged 'least suitable', I suppose. The third (c.1973) was available with the complete psalter as in the second ed., but a selection of psalms/portions (including some prose/Gelineau versions) was included, scattered by theme/time of year throughout the book. The fourth (2005) has a selection of psalms of all sorts in numerical order at the front of the book. This suggests that metrical psalmody continues. Or at the editors of the hymnary think it does - or at least should.
If the RCL is followed, then the psalm indicated by that could be sung in the 'gradual' position. Trouble with CH4 is that the selections don't necessarily include the items set in the RCL. Those using the book that SPK mentions wouldn't have that problem, of course.
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
Martin L, there seems to be wisdom in your words.
Looking back, the closest our Methodists and Presbyterians got to handing liturgies to the people was the service appendix in Hinário Evangélico com Ritual, a 1940 pan-Protestant endeavour. It's still the Methodist Church's official hymnal.
It brings many thematically-composed responsive readings, and has only one type of service, the five-part Hymn Sandwich based on Isaiah 6 as Antecommunion. Communion, which might be tugged to its end, is a stripped-down version of the old Methodist Anaphora, with no spoken input from the congregation apart from the Lord's Prayer and final Amen.
Even if its texts have all but been abandoned, the five-part Sandwich's structure based on Isa. 6 (Praise, Confession, Adoration, Edification and Dedication) is still the norm among Presbyterians, Methodists and even Baptists.
So yes, there might be something worth pursuing in appending at least the Ordinary of the Daily Office and Holy Communion in a hymnal and referring the people to it. If it helps spreading the historical Ordo, it will more than make up for the people not having the rest of the prayerbook with them.
Good thing I was also working on a hymnal to go with the prayerbook (433 titles and counting)!
Work on the altar book goes on, though!
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"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
I'm on Facebook too!
Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Voices United has the RCL in the back. Conveniently I look up the psalm, find the page number of actual reading, and if there is a metrical version decide if I can convince the organist that it is worthy to sing.
Our minister went on sabbatical so I am doing worship prep in his stead. I have revealed to several members of our congregation the existence of the RCL, its location in our hymn book and therefore that the scripture readings do not [necessarily] come from the minister's head.
I may have violated the first rule of Clergy Club. Oh well, I'm not clergy, just related to them. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Episcoterian:
Martin L, there seems to be wisdom in your words.
Heh...I've been trying to tell people that for years.
I think you will need to be very deliberate in trying not to turn people off to your idea. For many churches, I suspect this will mean that your dream prayerbook will be simply too much scripted liturgy. All of the ideas above are good, and I think a prayerbook (of the Book of Common Worship variety) would be a Good Thing. That being said, save it for a certain crowd. For the rest, tread lightly and provide something simple within the hymnal.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
You could take the route that Celebrate God's Presence takes and have an outline of what a service (such as Communion) should contain and then have a list of options. CGP has a Eucharistic Prayer K! It would help those of the Presby persuaion warm to the book if they knew it was there to help them achieve a certain level of "good" (helpful after a stressful week of funerals, marriages and pastoral visiting) while having enough options and guidance so that it doesn't feel that words are being stuffed in their mouths.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
Following the BCW's example, I always have the service outline before the service text. Can we go over the one for the Divine Service, as a starting exercise?
INITIAL RITES
Bell ringing, candle lighting, private devotions etc.
Prelude
Introit (not necessarily the minor proper; around here, any anthem/chorus sung before the formal start of the service counts as the Introit)
Entrance Hymn
Trinitarian Invocation
Votum (Our help is in the Name of the Lord etc.)
Proper Sentences of Scripture
Collect for Purity, Prayer of Preparation or (in solemn occasions) the Litany of Peace
Kyrie Eleison (except if the Litany was prayed)
Call to Penance
Silent Confession of Sins, then a Public one (kneeling)
Comfortable Words + Absolution/Assurance of Pardon
Gloria in Excelsis, Te Deum or other Hymn of Praise
LITURGY OF THE WORD
Dialogue and Collect of the Day
First Lesson
Psalm
Second Lesson
Gospel Acclamation and Reading
Prayer for Illumination
Sermon
Creed
Sermon Hymn
Intercessory Prayers (kneeling?)
LITURGY OF THE LORD'S SUPPER
The Peace
Offertory (also Tithes' Collection)
(Skip to Final Rites in case of no Communion)
Dialogue and Sursum Corda
Preface/Proper Preface
Sanctus + Benedictus
Anamnesis
Epiclesis?
Words of Institution (Breaking of Bread, Lifting of the Chalice) (kneeling!)
Epiclesis?
Memorial Acclamation (The Mystery of Faith)
The Lord's Prayer
Amen
Agnus Dei or other Eucharistic Hymn
Communion
Post-Communion Prayer
FINAL RITES
Nunc Dimittis
Final Prayer
Benediction
Amen
Dismissal Hymn
***
I've been reading Ronald P. Byars's Lift your hearts on high and am now divided as to the "proper" placement (and/or division) of the Epiclesis. Thoughts on that?
There's no separating the breaking of the bread in full view of the people, and the pouring/lifting of the chalice from the Words of Institution, in Brazilian Presbyerianism. It's the one piece of ritual we somehow managed to keep (even where the Lord's Prayer is already lost). And it's the only way to justify discreet elevations... ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
The UCCan puts the Epiclesis after the Words of Institution; we are of one mind with Brazil about manual acts during the Words of Institution.
What's with all the kneeling? Do you have kneelers?
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
The older shacks do (Rio Cathedral being the most obvious example), even if they are rarely used, and most times only for the intercessory prayers.
My own shack, an 85-year-old joint, had them until 2006. We traded kneelers for cushioned seats during their last refurbishment. Terrible deal if you ask me.
But we generally have no problem with kneeling. Only funny/weird thing is, when there are no kneelers, folks tend to to it facing the seats and resting their elbows on them. Okay for Confession and Intercession. But I might stick with standing for the Eucharistic Prayer...
[ 12. May 2012, 22:43: Message edited by: Episcoterian ]
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"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Episcoterian:
Following the BCW's example, I always have the service outline before the service text. Can we go over the one for the Divine Service, as a starting exercise?
Nice outline. In order to shorten the entrance rites, I would suggest you create a rubric option to pray the confession/absolution between the intercessions and the peace. You will be kneeling anyway. Keep your beginning-of-service spot for the confession, but allow its alternative placement.
Also, this outline would scare away even the most bookish Presbyterian. It's great for an altar book, but you will need a less daunting one for what the common pewfolk see.
[ 13. May 2012, 02:53: Message edited by: Martin L ]
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Critique from Reformed perspective, the first mode of worship is adoration not confession, our own act of confession takes place in the consideration of the overwhelming love of God.
You also don't have the assurance of pardon. The statement that basically no matter what our sins are Gods love covers them.
Without setting confession within this context I think there is something missing in the act itself. It becomes the "miserable sinner" far to easily and not as it should be a response to God's Love.
The Epiclesis comes after the words of the institution, it is the mandate for the action and therefore should be proclaimed before the action.
Jengie
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
The Confession of Sins in the beginning of the service is a holdover from Geneva. The idea seems to be "Cleanse yourself before entering the presence of Almighty God", pretty much like the OT priests had to do.
But we do acknowledge the Presence before Confession, with the "Call to Worship" block: Entrance Hymn, Invocation*, Votum*, Sentences from Scripture, Collect for Purity or Litany, Kyrie Eleison. Should it be beefier/have something else to count as Adoration?
(*) I wonder if it is too much to have both the Trinitarian Invocation and the Votum, before the Sentences.
Having the Confession of Sins early on in the service is already established practice in Brazilian Presbyterianism across the spectrum, and might be difficult to move it, but we certainly can have the option to save it for later, akin to Anglican practice.
But check again, Jengie, the Assurance of Pardon is over there, used interchangeably with "Absolution". Perhaps it should be between the Comfortable Words and the Absolution (or replace one of them?). Calvin said he wanted there to be an Absolution, but his Absolution can be considered really an Assurance of Pardon (it lacks a "priestly" declaration).
And Martin L, the hymnal order may follow this outline, then:
ENTRANCE RITES
Prelude
Entrance Hymn
Call to Worship (Invocation and Votum given, refer to Bulletin for Sentences, if used; Kyrie Eleison given)
Confession of Sins (refer to bulletin for congregational Prayer of Confession, if used)
Hymn of Praise
LITURGY OF THE WORD
First Lesson
Psalm
Second Lesson
Gospel Hymn
Gospel Reading
Sermon
Creed
Sermon Hymn
Prayers of the People (and Confession of Sins, if omitted in the beginning of the Service)
LITURGY OF THE LORD'S SUPPER
The Peace
Offertory
Great Prayer of Thanksgiving (all congregational responses given; Minister's parts alluded to, but not given, except for the Words of Institution; Agnus Dei given, but interchangeable with other hymns).
Communion
FINAL RITES
Announcements
Pastoral Prayer
Benediction and Amen
Dismissal Hymn
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"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
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