Ship of Fools: Pontifical Solemn Mass (CofE)

Thread: Pontifical Solemn Mass (CofE) Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by +Chrism (# 17032) on :

Dear All,

I am currently in the process of helping to plan a Pontifical Solemn Mass in a CofE parish but need some advice.

1. What should the Bishop wear? Normal chasuble? or a Roman Chasuble, Dalmatic, Tunicle, Episcopal Gloves and Maniple?

2. How would we normally greet the Bishop? I've seen St Silas, Kentish Town have the Bishop kneel down on a Faldstool, kisses the cross, the priest censes the Bishop and then the Bishop does asperges (Is this the correct way)

3. How would you cense a large amount of robing clergy?

4. How many Mitre's traditionally does the Bishop wear?

5. What is the best Eucharistic Prayer to use? (Roman Rite)

6. Did Fr Graeme Rowland (St Silas, Kentish Town) create most of his traditions or can they be found somewhere?

Posted by +Chrism (# 17032) on :

Any suggestions will also be valued

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

In answer to no 4, I suppose it depends how many heads he has.

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :

[Killing me]

Posted by AngloCatholicDude (# 16476) on :

quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
Dear All,

I am currently in the process of helping to plan a Pontifical Solemn Mass in a CofE parish but need some advice.

1. What should the Bishop wear? Normal chasuble? or a Roman Chasuble, Dalmatic, Tunicle, Episcopal Gloves and Maniple?

2. How would we normally greet the Bishop? I've seen St Silas, Kentish Town have the Bishop kneel down on a Faldstool, kisses the cross, the priest censes the Bishop and then the Bishop does asperges (Is this the correct way)

3. How would you cense a large amount of robing clergy?

4. How many Mitre's traditionally does the Bishop wear?

5. What is the best Eucharistic Prayer to use? (Roman Rite)

6. Did Fr Graeme Rowland (St Silas, Kentish Town) create most of his traditions or can they be found somewhere?

Answer to Question 4 is 3 Mitres one of them is a Precious Mitre and Question 3 I'd use the Roman Canon

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

Censing clergy with a Roman Cannon sounds like great fun. I'd love to see that. Are there any videos available?

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
1. What should the Bishop wear?

Clothes. Naked presiding is just wrong.

quote:
2. How would we normally greet the Bishop?

"Mornin' Dave".

quote:
3. How would you cense a large amount of robing clergy?

By the smell, probably. And it's spelled with an "s", not a "c".

quote:
4. How many Mitre's traditionally does the Bishop wear?

Spike already answered this one.

quote:
5. What is the best Eucharistic Prayer to use? (Roman Rite)

Does it matter?

quote:
6. Did Fr Graeme Rowland (St Silas, Kentish Town) create most of his traditions or can they be found somewhere?

Never heard of him, sorry.

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

Now I know why I stopped being an Anglo-Catholic and became a Quaker.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

The debate (and the humour) may continue in Eccles. Enjoy!

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

Posted by The Man with a Stick (# 12664) on :

1.) The latter - don't forget the Cappa Magna for the way in.

2.) Don't forget to kiss the ring.

3.) Give those chaps at Santiago a call for tips.

4.) More than two can seem a bit over the top to this standard middle-of-the-road CofEer

5.) "Common Worship Eucharistic Prayer I" as we call it.

6.) Divine revelation.

Posted by Aggie (# 4385) on :

In my former parish, whenever there was a Pontifical High Mass, a server would be appointed to "look after" (not sure of the correct terms) the visiting Bishop by holding or handing him his crozier/mitre. Before the Mass started, the Altar party and Bishop would process up the north aisle to the west end of the church where the Bishop would kneel on a pre-dieu as he was censed. The priest would greet him: "Reverend Father in God, we bid you welcome." After this, the Choir would sing Elgar's "Ecce Sacerdos Magnus", as the Bishop processed down the Nave to the High Altar.

Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
Any suggestions will also be valued

Stretch Canon B5 to breaking point and just follow the guidance in this

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
Any suggestions will also be valued

Noting that you're in London, if the bishop whose visit you are honouring is your diocesan, it would a seriously bad idea to use a Roman Rite. That would be coat trailing. Stick to BCP or CW.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

This is a must-have.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I second what Marvin said.

As for the reference to Ritual Notes, I must sell mine - judging by the link above, I could make a fortune.

Posted by Bax (# 16572) on :

1. What should the Bishop wear? Normal chasuble? or a Roman Chasuble, Dalmatic, Tunicle, Episcopal Gloves and Maniple?

Bishops may wear the pontifical dalmatic under the chasuble (nicely showing that they are deacons i.e. servants 1st of all...) if you have such a thing. Gloves maniple ring zuchetto are all also possible but you need to know what to do with them and when...

2. How would we normally greet the Bishop? I've seen St Silas, Kentish Town have the Bishop kneel down on a Faldstool, kisses the cross, the priest censes the Bishop and then the Bishop does asperges (Is this the correct way)

Episcolpal ceremonial is covered in larger books such as Fortescue Ceremonies of the Roman Rite. There is a modern episcopal ceremonial book (in which the censing to the bishop is omitted...)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ceremonial-Bishops-Liturgical-Press/dp/0814618189/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1337774307&sr=8-6

3. How would you cense a large amount of robing clergy?

If they are all sitting together, bow to them (they baow back) and give three single swings (middle, right, left) if they are sitting in choir only (ie not concelebrants)

4. How many Mitre's traditionally does the Bishop wear?

There are 3 types, precious (decorated), gold and simple (white). For any one mass the bishop may use the precious and the gold, see books above for when to change and you need a server to hold the other one that is not being used.

5. What is the best Eucharistic Prayer to use? (Roman Rite)

Use prayer one if possible for my money, esp if you have any concelebrants (more for them to do)

6. Did Fr Graeme Rowland (St Silas, Kentish Town) create most of his traditions or can they be found somewhere?

See answer to question 2.

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

No, no, the Bishop of London loves the Roman Rite and will use nothing else. There will be tears!

Posted by AristonAstuanax (# 10894) on :

1. The bishop should wear as much tat as you can possibly force onto him/her, especially if it's heavy and impedes movement. It's the same theory as a truly posh wedding dress for a bridezilla: everyone will be looking at him/her (so s/he's happy), but if things get out of control, everyone else can make a quick getaway.

2. I believe Father Ted already covered this one, as well as the appropriate responce for His/Her Grace.

3. Lots and lots of incense, and otherwise proceed as normal. Your goal is to get a thick enough smoke from the thurible that only a few swings will be needed to smoke up the whole church.

4. Again, it depends on the number of heads your bishop has, as well as how heavy you can make the decorated miter—enough gold and jewels to choke a horse, and your bishop isn't going to be able to move much faster than a dignified shuffle.

5. See the above answers. I like the BCP myself.

6. How can you create a new tradition? Aren't they just habits that have become ossified? Plus, think about the idea of "new tradition." Just think about it for a while.

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
3. How would you cense a large amount of robing clergy?

Wouldn't you wait until they have their robes on?

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by AristonAstuanax
The bishop should wear as much tat as you can possibly force onto him/her, especially if it's heavy and impedes movement.

Not too heavy. One of the ways one distinguishes a fake bishop from the real thing is that when fully censed, a pukka bishop should rise gently into the air and float above the ground. Suffragans only rise to about 18", a diocesan to about 3' while a metropolitan should be about head height.

If a bishop rises higher than his station should entitle him to, that may be pride or an indication as to future translation. It takes discernment to know.

Posted by Incensed (# 2670) on :

Suggest you just contact Granny Rowlands or his head server and ask for their ceremonial notes. Might save you a lot of time! Or you could approach St Mary's, Bourne Street or All Saints, Margaret Street for assistance.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by AristonAstuanax
The bishop should wear as much tat as you can possibly force onto him/her, especially if it's heavy and impedes movement.
Not too heavy. One of the ways one distinguishes a fake bishop from the real thing is that when fully censed, a pukka bishop should rise gently into the air and float above the ground. Suffragans only rise to about 18", a diocesan to about 3' while a metropolitan should be about head height.

Whereas for a flying bishop, the sky's the limit.

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

If only

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by AristonAstuanax
The bishop should wear as much tat as you can possibly force onto him/her, especially if it's heavy and impedes movement.
Not too heavy. One of the ways one distinguishes a fake bishop from the real thing is that when fully censed, a pukka bishop should rise gently into the air and float above the ground. Suffragans only rise to about 18", a diocesan to about 3' while a metropolitan should be about head height.
Whereas for a flying bishop, the sky's the limit.

I wish I'd said that. Brilliant!

Posted by AristonAstuanax (# 10894) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by AristonAstuanax
The bishop should wear as much tat as you can possibly force onto him/her, especially if it's heavy and impedes movement.
Not too heavy. One of the ways one distinguishes a fake bishop from the real thing is that when fully censed, a pukka bishop should rise gently into the air and float above the ground. Suffragans only rise to about 18", a diocesan to about 3' while a metropolitan should be about head height.

If a bishop rises higher than his station should entitle him to, that may be pride or an indication as to future translation. It takes discernment to know.

That would explain the development of the crosier, then—as bishops began to rise to greater and greater heights (especially as advances in incense and thuribles allowed for a better quality of smoke), they needed some way to pull themselves back down to earth. I'm guessing the archbishop's palium with its silver nails is a faded remnant of the lead-weighted vest such august personages used to wear to counteract any tendency to simply go floating off altogether?

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:

quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
3. How would you cense a large amount of robing clergy?
Wouldn't you wait until they have their robes on?

I find it easiest to incense clergy by telling them that they know absolutely nothing about liturgy and hymnody.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
Dear All,

I am currently in the process of helping to plan a Pontifical Solemn Mass in a CofE parish but need some advice.

1. What should the Bishop wear? Normal chasuble? or a Roman Chasuble, Dalmatic, Tunicle, Episcopal Gloves and Maniple?

2. How would we normally greet the Bishop? I've seen St Silas, Kentish Town have the Bishop kneel down on a Faldstool, kisses the cross, the priest censes the Bishop and then the Bishop does asperges (Is this the correct way)

3. How would you cense a large amount of robing clergy?

4. How many Mitre's traditionally does the Bishop wear?

5. What is the best Eucharistic Prayer to use? (Roman Rite)

6. Did Fr Graeme Rowland (St Silas, Kentish Town) create most of his traditions or can they be found somewhere?

1. Under normal circumstances - Eucharistic vestments plus mitre. If it is a really big do - like an ordination, Christmas, Easter, or Pentecost, then Pontifical Dalmatic is in order. Gloves, Buskins and the Pontifical tunicle are kind of our of fashion - Deo gratias! If your shack has the big six on the altar and the bishop celebrating is the diocesan do not forget the Bishop's (seventh) candle. This should go pretty in the middle of the altar at an ad orientem celebration. If you are still doing it 'Punch and Judy' style then you'll have to figure it out for yourself (clue - three gospel side and three epistle side, and the bishop's candle just to the Gospel side looks OK.) Tabernacle should be empty if it is on the High Altar. If you have a hanging pyx you do not have to do this.

2. I prefer to sneaking into the sacristy about twenty minutes before kick off and robe in peace. The St Silas routine requires one to arrive at the very least in cassock, and correctly - cassock, rochet, chimere and tippet. After the formal greeting, the bishop is led to a side chapel and then vests for the Mass.

3. Two double-swings to either side of the quire to smoke the spare clergy. Cannot remember what to do with concelebrants as I avoid concelebrated Masses like the plague.

4. The bishop will usually use one mitre throughout the Mass. I usually wear it for the procession in, for the Epistle, for the Abolution and the Blessing and for the stagger out. If I am very lucky there are a couple of flunkies - erm, chaplains - who make sure I have my mitre and crosier at the right times - hopefully!

5. One that is in CW, but I would go for one of the less involved ones as that tends to eliminate cock-ups.

6. Would not know. Around here Ritual Notes, Elliot, or Percy Dearmer prevail depending on the parish.

+PD

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Tabernacle should be empty if it is on the High Altar. If you have a hanging pyx you do not have to do this.

I'm fascinated by this direction: could you explain? What about aumbries in the high altar sanctuary?

Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
If you are still doing it 'Punch and Judy' style...

I like you.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:

quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
3. How would you cense a large amount of robing clergy?
Wouldn't you wait until they have their robes on?
I find it easiest to incense clergy by telling them that they know absolutely nothing about liturgy and hymnody.

I can think of more than a few who would take that as a compliment!

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Tabernacle should be empty if it is on the High Altar. If you have a hanging pyx you do not have to do this.
I'm fascinated by this direction: could you explain? What about aumbries in the high altar sanctuary?

I have never quite worked it out either, but if your parish follows Rome (hopefully at a respectful distance) in liturgical matters it is a requirement of at least the EF rubrics that the MBS be removed from a Tabby on the High Altar. Hopefully TT or one of the other knowledgeable Romans will come along and fill us in on the "whys and wherefores." My initial thought was that it was to save dodgy episcopal knees.

PD

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
Dear All,

I am currently in the process of helping to plan a Pontifical Solemn Mass in a CofE parish but need some advice.

" ... helping to plan a Pontifical Solemn Mass in a C of E parish ... "

Er, what does helping mean or imply?

1. You've never done this before?

2. Are there others with who have done this before?

If you haven't done such a thing before, go quickly, post haste, and find someone who has; and further, someone with years of experience dealing with episcopal ceremonial.

Find that person or persons with the express intent to have them with you on site for the Mass itself. No offense, but unless I am very wrong, by your questions here I can tell that you don't have the experience or background to plan and execute with ease the ceremonial required for this event.

Good luck to you.

Posted by Morlader (# 16040) on :

Following this thread at a (respectful!) distance. But when I first saw it I thought "Goodness, the Pope is celebrating Mass at a CofE church??". Turns out everybody else knows that "Pontifical" is the new "Episcopal". Is this grade inflation, hyperbole or what?

Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:
Following this thread at a (respectful!) distance. But when I first saw it I thought "Goodness, the Pope is celebrating Mass at a CofE church??". Turns out everybody else knows that "Pontifical" is the new "Episcopal". Is this grade inflation, hyperbole or what?

Pontiff is just another word for Bishop. Nothing new here. (Hence the pope's title, "Supreme Pontiff".)

Posted by Morlader (# 16040) on :

Thanks, Michael. "Supreme Pontiff" was a sort of tautology to me. I now understand.

Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:
Thanks, Michael. "Supreme Pontiff" was a sort of tautology to me. I now understand.

Tis ok. It does often get abbreviated to just "Pontiff", which is probably the cause of the confusion.

For my part, I don't subscribe to the doctrine and ecclesiology that underpins "Pontifex Maximus".

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I have never quite worked it out either, but if your parish follows Rome (hopefully at a respectful distance) in liturgical matters it is a requirement of at least the EF rubrics that the MBS be removed from a Tabby on the High Altar. Hopefully TT or one of the other knowledgeable Romans will come along and fill us in on the "whys and wherefores." My initial thought was that it was to save dodgy episcopal knees.

PD

Not quite TT but if I may assist:

The Roman Rite is a rite full of vestiges, especially in the EF. The most obvious vestige is the kyrie, which is a vestige of the intercessory litanies* which once existed in the Roman Rite (as they still do in the Byzantine rite). Another is the commingling, a vestige of the fermentum, which we discussed hereabouts recently.

The removal of the Blessed Sacrament at a Pontifical Mass in the EF is another vestige. The ceremonies of the Pontificale Romanum vestigally presume that the Blessed Sacrament is not reserved on or near the principal altar. Accordingly, where it is reserved there, it needs to be removed to another place. The Ceremoniale Episcoporum which governs this kind of thing in the OF isn't as explicit. However, it prescribes (at CE49) that the place of reservation in a Cathedral is in some place away from the main altar and describes both the episcopal liturgy in the Cathedral and the Stational Mass as if this were so. Removing he Blessed Sacrament to another place would, therefore, seem fitting and it is commonly done both in my diocese and in at least one of our neighbours.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

Cheers, Trisagion! That would have been my guess, but guess it would have been as I am not terribly well up on the Roman Rite. It is literally, beyond my province. That said, some of the clergy insist on importing chucks of it into the BCP, but they do so without approval which paradoxically stops controversy raging about it in this little corner of the Church.

PD

[ 26. May 2012, 14:30: Message edited by: PD ]

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Is there not also something about the bishop being the fount of the sacraments and that the eucharist in one sense,but certainly not all, starts from the bishop's celebration .For that reason the Blessed Sacrament should not be reserved on the altar at the beginning of a solemn episcopal or pontifical celebration ?

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Is there not also something about the bishop being the fount of the sacraments and that the eucharist in one sense,but certainly not all, starts from the bishop's celebration .For that reason the Blessed Sacrament should not be reserved on the altar at the beginning of a solemn episcopal or pontifical celebration ?

Whilst an interesting reflection, it has about it the sense of a post hoc rationalisation of an historical practice: a bit like all that "ambo as the table of the Word" stuff.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Is this thread a wind up? Even for Ecclesiantics?

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

Some days, leo, it is difficult to tell. [Big Grin]

But I rather like the blend of information and, um, comments. I'm sure the OPer can distinguish between the two.

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I it is a requirement of at least the EF rubrics that the MBS be removed from a Tabby on the High Altar ... My initial thought was that it was to save dodgy episcopal knees.

PD
Not quite TT but if I may assist:

The Roman Rite is a rite full of vestiges, especially in the EF.

The removal of the Blessed Sacrament at a Pontifical Mass in the EF is another vestige. The ceremonies of the Pontificale Romanum vestigally presume that the Blessed Sacrament is not reserved on or near the principal altar. Accordingly, where it is reserved there, it needs to be removed to another place. The Ceremoniale Episcoporum which governs this kind of thing in the OF isn't as explicit. However, it prescribes (at CE49) that the place of reservation in a Cathedral is in some place away from the main altar and describes both the episcopal liturgy in the Cathedral and the Stational Mass as if this were so. Removing he Blessed Sacrament to another place would, therefore, seem fitting and it is commonly done both in my diocese and in at least one of our neighbours.

Yes, the for reason for removal of the reserved sacrament is vestigial, but it is also pertinent. The pontifical Mass forms of the various Latin rites, as well as the origins papal pontifical Mass and many of their subsequent developments, came centuries before the practice of reservation of the Blessed Sacrament was at all common on the main altar tables of churches (or cathedrals, where that happened). So the earlier and later episcopal ceremonial books were written, not with the idea of removing the Blessed Sacrament in any way, but on the assumption that the reserved sacrament was not kept there in the first place.

Reservation of the Blessed Sacrament on the high or main altar of churches is a relatively late development beginning in the last five hundred years of church history and after the Reformation. The first fifteen hundred years of Latin liturgy knew nothing of altar tabernacles as we know them today. Slowly, off-altar aumbries and hanging pyxes and tabernacles came into use.

For Roman Catholics those various types of reservation of the Blessed Sacrament continued up until the decision of the Sacred Congregation of Rites of 21 August, 1863, put an end to the employment of such receptacles. Of course even that ruling was lifted in the years following Vatican Council II.

See Cath. Encyclopedia / Tabernacle

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Is there not also something about the bishop being the fount of the sacraments and that the eucharist in one sense,but certainly not all, starts from the bishop's celebration .For that reason the Blessed Sacrament should not be reserved on the altar at the beginning of a solemn episcopal or pontifical celebration ?

The bishop as the "font." That is what we call "spiritualized reasoning." The real reason isn't at hand or apparent, so a spiritualozed and pious, usually super-pious, story is concocted to cover the lack of real facts. See my post on pontifical ceremonies and the Blessed Sacrament.

Spiritualized reasoning isn't confined to pontificalia. It's often used in religion, especially in wider matters liturgical and ceremonial, when the real answer can't be readily determined by factual research.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

I thought that my 'interesting reflection' came from a piece submitted a long time ago by Triple Tiara who knows more than a thing or two.
Indeed it wasn't until about the 16th centuries that tabernacles on the altars of Catholic churches became common,with the Most Blessed Sacrament being reserved beforehand in a hanging pyx or in an aumbry or sacrament house beside or near the altar.

In spite of the suggestions about the tabernacle being empty at a pontifical celebrations few cathedrals before Vat 2 would have actually had the tabernacle empty or not at all on the High Altar.Westminster cathedral springs to mind,Salzburg cathedral and of course St Peter's in Rome. Nowadays there are many churches,not only cathedrals, which do not have a tabernacle on the altar.

On Holy Saturday at the First Mass of the Resurrection the tabernacle should be empty as an indication that the daily celebrations have been suspended and that it all starts again from the celebration of the Resurrection.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

I do not ever recalling seeing a Tabby on the high altar of a cathedral, though they were often so placed in parish churches. I seem to recall that at some point the old Congregation of Rites sent out a reminder that Cathedral Tabernacles were to be located in a prominent side chapel, and that instruction became the basis for the modern legislation governing the placement of Tabernacles in new churches. Unfortunately I cannot give you chapter and verse as I am not Roman Catholic or Anglo-Papalist, just an ordinary High Church Protestant.

PD

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
a Tabby on the high altar PD

Is a tabby de rigeur for anglo-cats?

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

The fact that the Sacred Congregation of rites sent out a reminder about the tabernacle on the High altar of cathedrals was presumably because not to many cathedrals 'obeyed' the directive.Certainly here is Scotland I don't remember any cathedral not having a tabernacle on the High Altar before Vat.2,Edinburgh,Glasgow,Paisley,Motherwell,Oban,Ayr/Dumfries and Aberdeen.Probably only Edinburgh still has a tabernacle on or near the High altar nowadays.In Austria Salzburg had no tabernacle on the High altar,but all of the others did,at least the ones which I knew,Vienna,Klagenfurt,Innsbruck,St Poelten,Eisenstadt,Linz.If I remember rightly Cologne had no tabernacle on the High Altar and I'm not too familiar with other German cathedrals

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
a Tabby on the high altar PD
Is a tabby de rigeur for anglo-cats?

So that's what you set amongst Low Church pigeons?

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