Thread: MW 2381: Our Savior Lutheran Church, Pagosa Springs CO, USA Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by SeraphimSarov (# 4335) on :
 
It seems to be that the bad review was only to do with the bee in the bonnet over the Missouri Synod "closed communion" policy
I guess that was the reason for the "cold and dour" label. I can't see anything else that would justify that description Although most mw reports are very subjective, this seemed more so

link to report

[ 23. May 2012, 04:35: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 

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Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :
 
I was confused too. One minute the church is friendly and the welcome "warm and sincere". The next minute its "cold and dour".


 

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Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
The welcome was warm and sincere. The worship experience was cold and dour in my opinion. Sorry, but it was.
 

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Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :
 
I didn't suppose the perceived coldness of the worship was to do with the closed communion policy of the LC-MS, which is well known. It reminds me of a friend's description many years ago of the early mass at a TEC parish where he said the priest entered grimly in from the sacristy, projecting the attitude that, "OK, we're here to do Mass, dammit."
 

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Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
The closed communion policy had something to do with it, I admit. But contributing to my opinion were the absence of an exchange of peace (which I forgot to mention in the report), the weak organ support for congregational singing, the difficult-to-sing nature of the service music, and the segue immediately into Sunday school without an intervening intermission for refreshments.

There can be no question that the pastor knew I was a visitor. Instead of (or in addition to) exchanging pleasantries, could he not have taken me aside and had a conversation with me something like:

P. Did you want to take communion with us this morning?

A. Yes, I had hoped to be able to.

P. Are you a baptized Christian?

A. Yes, I am.

P. You know, we as Lutherans believe that Christ is really and truly present in the eucharistic bread and wine. Is that your belief too?

A. Yes, it is.

P. And we believe that Christ gave up his body and shed his blood for all of us. Do you believe that?

A. Yes, I do.

P. And we also believe that in order to receive the eucharist worthily, you should be at peace with God and with your fellow man. Do you feel that you are?

A. Yes, pastor. I am a sinner, but I am sorry for my sins and I trust in God's mercy to forgive me.

P. Welcome, then, to our table, dear Miss Amanda.

The above would have taken all of 60 seconds and would have been far more appropriate than "I'll bet you're glad to exchange the heat of Arizona for the coolness of Colorado, aren't you?"
 

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Posted by uffda (# 14310) on :
 
As a Lutheran from the other side of the aisle (ELCA), the one thing I found really surprising about the report, was the weakness in singing the liturgy. Miss Amanda's feelings about Lutheran Liturgical Music notwithstanding, Divine Service 1 in the Lutheran Service Book is,
IIRC, the Hillert setting, which has been the principal setting in the Lutheran Book of Worship
(green book) since 1978, and one of the principal settings in Lutheran Worship (the immediate predecessor of the LSB) since 1982.
I can well understand that the setting might be formidible to someone not used to Lutheran Liturgy, but, unless THIS congregation was unused to it, I can't imagine it being poorly sung.

The "one, holy, Christian, and apostolic church"
is a paricular idiosyncratic wording for Lutherans, dating back to Luther himself, who
translated it that way. This usage was not finally abandoned in the ELCA until the 1978 book
where the word "catholic" appeared in the text of the creed, while the word "Christian" appeared in a footnote. One of the reasons for the Green Book's failure to win Missouri Synod backing was their reluctance to go against the word "Christian" in the creed.

There is ongoing debate within the Missouri Synod about its Communion policy and whether it should be best described as "closed" or "close."
Often the decision is up to the pastor, and since Miss Amanda noted the pastor was a "vacancy" pastor, perhaps a "don't rock the boat during the interim" policy was in effect.

But overall the worship described in Miss Amanda's report seems to ring true with some of the comments on "High Church Lutheranism," a recent thread here in Ecclesiantics.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by uffda:


There is ongoing debate within the Missouri Synod about its Communion policy and whether it should be best described as "closed" or "close."

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Originally posted by uffda:
There is ongoing debate within the Missouri Synod about its Communion policy and whether it should be best described as "closed" or "close."
Often the decision is up to the pastor, and since Miss Amanda noted the pastor was a "vacancy" pastor, perhaps a "don't rock the boat during the interim" policy was in effect.

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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I have experienced hymns being sung at sonic speed as a matter of course, and sometimes the service music being very speedy as well.

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Originally posted by PD:
I am trying to navigate something only half familiar like the isorhythmic version of 'A mighty fortress.'

PD

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You mean the proper version?
 

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Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 

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Originally posted by PD:
If anything they have erred on the side of being just a tiny bit too slow. However, all my experience of LCMS has been on the Left Coast - CA and OR.

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Originally posted by Martin L:
The Gloria is a bit tricky, but I'd be surprised if it weren't replaced with This is the Feast in Eastertide.

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Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

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Originally posted by Martin L:
The Gloria is a bit tricky, but I'd be surprised if it weren't replaced with This is the Feast in Eastertide.

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Yes, it was.

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Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

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Originally posted by Martin L:
The Gloria is a bit tricky, but I'd be surprised if it weren't replaced with This is the Feast in Eastertide.

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Yes, it was.

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Originally posted by Martin L:
That setting of This is the Feast is probably our only one that has managed to escape the confines of Lutheranism. . . .

Was it more the Kyrie, Alleluia, and Offertory that were challenging? (Sorry for trying to pick your brain, but I am in a position to pick the liturgical setting, and this information would be very beneficial to me if you are willing to share.)

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Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Are you sure that communion was that closed?

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Originally posted by venbede:
I saw there were no servers. Were lay people used to read the lessons or the biddings for the intercessions?

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No. The vicar did it all.
 

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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
Ah. I have no regular and informed experience of Lutheran worship, so it's not for me to comment. I was wondering whether your concern was with the denomination (or its variety) rather than the specific congregation.

I wouldn't expect obvious individual lay participation at an Orthodox service, nor to receive communion, and it wouldn't bother me.

But no lay voices except for the (possibly feeble) hymn singing and no peace does sound a bit unnecessarily chilly in a liturgical church.
 

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Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
What is a "vicar" in the Lutheran world? How is a vicar different from a pastor?
 

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Posted by uffda (# 14310) on :
 
A vicar is a seminary student doing a year of pastoral work prior to ordination. Kind of like a Roman Catholic transitional deacon.

[ 25. May 2012, 21:03: Message edited by: uffda ]
 

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Posted by PRESBY DUDE (# 16035) on :
 
May a humble, unworthy Presby weigh in on this discussion? I think some posters will tongue-lash one of my comments, but I'll take it without a temper tantrum or a nervous breakdown.

First off, I've always truly enjoyed the Mystery Worshipper posts, and Amanda B Reckondwythe's additions are especially fine. While I don't know the fine personage, Miss Amanda sounds like an interesting person to have coffee and pastry with---or, more gramatically, a person with whom to have coffee and pastry. Either way---as long as there's pastry!

Without meaning to offend Missouri Synod folk (and I have several good friends who are members of that good-sized, active denomination), I firmly object to their notion of closed communion. After all, SAYS WHO? Did the Lord Jesus suggest at the Last Supper that we check denomination affiliation and belief systems? Nope. He commanded that we "Do this in remembrance of me".

The Christian should certainly take the reception of Holy Communion seriously (so Paul informs us in his epistles), but it's his/her own decision about whether to participate. At the risk of being verbally abused by other posters, on trips to London I have many times approached for Communion reception at Westminster Cathedral (Roman Catholic) without ecclesiastical permission. I consider it a personal decision. I don't much care what Pope Benedict XVI says about the matter either. I spend a scant amount of time worrying about his pronouncements. I do approach for Communion in a spirit of reverence. After all, Catholics and Missouri Synod Lutherans would be cordially welcomed to receive Communion in my Presbyterian congregation, if they desired. We have our Presby faults, but we don't slam down the Communion trays and say, "No, approach ye not our table. If thou approachest it, thou shalt be damned!" After all, folks, this is 2012.
(Oh, I will hear about this post, won't I?)

Furthermore, the omniscient Miss Amanda - noted for her astute comments - is quite right: There is indeed a dour element in the worship and the music of the LCMS. I remember my local town's LCMS church in the Sixties, which I thought took the Christian faith in a very intense, serious manner. There wasn't much joy in their worship.

I've visited six or eight LCMS churches in more recent times (with LCMS friends who won't set foot elsewhere), and there's still a legalism and heaviness there. Much of their music is barely singable, and I studied voice (though I wasn't a music major) in college. That's not to say that certain congregations haven't "lightened up" or that a majority of LCMS members aren't fine, friendly people. But it wouldn't be my first or even tenth choice for a denominational affiliation. I think that Miss Amanda - God bless her soul - probably put the shoe on the correct foot, so to speak.

So......even though I may be harshly criticized (or criticised in Britain), I shall thoughtfully make my own decisions about Communion reception, and I shall remain in a denomination that's a tad or two "lighter" than the LCMS. After all, we do have a serious duty to worship, but we should consider it a joy and a privilege as well. The Lord's hospitality should be extended to every sincere believer who approaches his table, regardless of his/her church membership. Amen.
 

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Posted by SeraphimSarov (# 4335) on :
 
How much did you get paid by Miss Amanda for that hymn of praise??
 

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Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by PRESBY DUDE:
I've visited six or eight LCMS churches in more recent times (with LCMS friends who won't set foot elsewhere), and there's still a legalism and heaviness there. Much of their music is barely singable, and I studied voice (though I wasn't a music major) in college. That's not to say that certain congregations haven't "lightened up" or that a majority of LCMS members aren't fine, friendly people. But it wouldn't be my first or even tenth choice for a denominational affiliation.

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"Dour" is perhaps a word thrown around with the LCMS more than with other denoms, and you certainly won't get an argument from me in favor of the long, drawn-out German heritage hymns of yesteryear that they still tend to love, but I must admit that the LCMS has come a long way in the past twenty years.

Although the German influence is still very heavy, I am starting to see other Lutherans actually turning to the LCMS as a doctrinal refuge of sorts. Some of them are from low church Lutheran denoms that have strayed too far from Lutheranism toward a more fundamentalist non-denom feeling. Other refugees are ELCA Lutherans who feel the ELCA has strayed too far into liberal mainlineism.

Twenty years ago, none of those people would have even considered joining an LCMS church. Back then, it was far more insulated, and far more...hereditary, for lack of a better word.

Being refused or even strongly discouraged from receiving Holy Communion does hurt. That being said, the bulk of the LCMS churches around here are quite flexible in that regard, especially if the receiver is a Lutheran. I hope that this attitude doesn't sour toward ELCA Lutherans, but I have a feeling that more and more LCMS churches are probably headed that way.

[ETA: And, for what it's worth, I always enjoy Amanda B. Reckondwythe's MW reports, too.]

[ 26. May 2012, 01:13: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
You're an apprentice.

I won't eat you.
 

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Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 
PRESBY DUDE, it's fine for you to believe that the altar shouldn't be fenced. But you're showing a lack of respect for other Christians when you receive communion at a church which practices closed (or even close) communion.

Read St Paul in ch. 14 of the epistle to the Romans. You are risking scandalizing your brethren. It's not okay to do that just because you're "right".
 

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Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
I've been to other LCMS churches where the instructions for communion were to the effect that "Any baptized Christian who believes that the body and blood of Christ are truly present in the consecrated elements, and who is a member in good standing of his home church, and who is at peace with God and his neighbor, is welcome at Christ's holy table." At those churches I did not hesitate to go forward.

Our Savior, Pagosa Springs, was the first time I had encountered the strict LCMS policy I complained of.

I have to admit that I am less likely now to visit another LCMS church. I think my forays into Lutheranism will be limited henceforth to ELCA.

On my next trip to Pagosa Springs, which will be in late July or early August, I'll drop in on a different church. There's a RC church and a Methodist church right smack downtown, and a pentecostal type mega-church just down the road from Our Savior. I've already "done" the local Episcopal church.

Speaking of closed communion, I've located a Plymouth Brethern church here in Phoenix and plan to "do" them this Sunday.
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by PRESBY DUDE:
Without meaning to offend Missouri Synod folk (and I have several good friends who are members of that good-sized, active denomination), I firmly object to their notion of closed communion. [. . . ] (Oh, I will hear about this post, won't I?)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:


There can be no question that the pastor knew I was a visitor. Instead of (or in addition to) exchanging pleasantries, could he not have taken me aside and had a conversation with me something like:

P. Did you want to take communion with us this morning?

A. Yes, I had hoped to be able to.

P. Are you a baptized Christian?

A. Yes, I am.

P. You know, we as Lutherans believe that Christ is really and truly present in the eucharistic bread and wine. Is that your belief too?

...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Instead of (or in addition to) exchanging pleasantries, could he not have taken me aside and had a conversation with me something like:

P. Did you want to take communion with us this morning?

A. Yes, I had hoped to be able to.

P. Are you a baptized Christian?

A. Yes, I am.

P. You know, we as Lutherans believe that Christ is really and truly present in the eucharistic bread and wine. Is that your belief too?

A. Yes, it is.

P. And we believe that Christ gave up his body and shed his blood for all of us. Do you believe that?

A. Yes, I do.

P. And we also believe that in order to receive the eucharist worthily, you should be at peace with God and with your fellow man. Do you feel that you are?

A. Yes, pastor. I am a sinner, but I am sorry for my sins and I trust in God's mercy to forgive me.

P. Welcome, then, to our table, dear Miss Amanda.

The above would have taken all of 60 seconds and would have been far more appropriate than "I'll bet you're glad to exchange the heat of Arizona for the coolness of Colorado, aren't you?"

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This made me smile a little, just recalling the regular repeat threads we get on the boards about how people hate, abhor and loathe being:

- talked to at church;
- interrogated as a visitor;
- not left alone to lurk anonymously, without speech, gesture or notice or attention.

Just imagining how all those sensitive little flowers would respond to an inquisition of this proportion just because they happened to walk through the door in the hope of singing a hymn or two! I think my own inner dialogue would be something like: should I send in my CV and a couple of references as well?
 

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Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
imagining how all those sensitive little flowers would respond to an inquisition of this proportion

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From the MW report: I took that as my queue to get up and leave

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