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Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :
 
I have a few questions from you, classical music fans.

1. How common are countertenors? I get the impression that they are extremely rare. But is it because most male singers don't train at that high voice, or is it simply because it is out of the range for most men?

2) I don't really get the aesthetic appeal of countertenors. I find tenors' voice quite beautiful, but I get the impression that most people applaud countertenors simply because of its rarity. Then again, I'm not a huge fan of sopranos, either.

[ 23. June 2012, 22:18: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
Counter-tenors, it should be understood, are male sopranos. I only know this because my girl friend is an opera fan.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
The few countertenors I have known through church choirs and the like were all basses or tenors who had developed to a remarkable degree the ability to sing falsetto. In other words, they were not castrati. They had "normal" male speaking voices.

I have, however, known several men who had high-pitched speaking voices, like pre-pubescent boys. So far as I know, though, they were not singers.
 
Posted by Laurence (# 9135) on :
 
(oooh, heaven! How fluffy!)

Counter-tenors are simply men singing using their falsetto voice. Think the Bee Gees. Most men can make a squeaky noise in falsetto; some can sing in it; a few can make a sound that is genuinely beautiful. They are definitely anatomically and endocrinologically male. (Translation- they've got all their bits!)

They generally don't have a soprano range (from middle C to two octaves above, technically); most choral counter-tenors tend to peter out at around the D or E above middle C. Some can go all the way up to the genuine soprano register (Derek Lee Ragin was one).

Some have fine baritone voices, and can switch between the two to surprising effect- Andreas Scholl is one of them. Others should stick to singing countertenor as their bass/baritone/tenor voice just doesn't sound so decent.

Before the 60s, they used to be very rare outside the English Cathedral tradition. However, as people have become more familiar with the sound, and as the standard musical repertoire has extended back beyond the 19th century, there's been a real demand for them. A man called Alfred Deller was the first really successful recording counter-tenor- some of his recordings are still worth listening to, although he's a bit hooty and precious English-sounding at times.

To sum up, when they're good, they're very very good; when they're bad, they're horrid. But I wouldn't want to be without them- Handel oratorios, Bach cantatas, Purcell anthems- they wouldn't be the same!
 
Posted by Jigsaw (# 11433) on :
 
Does that include Roy Orbison, who had the most beautiful high voice? (Often wondered, just asking..)
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
I think the most familiar piece by a countertenor today is Vale Decum(starts at 4:01), sung by Mark Chambers.

Vale Decum of course, translates to "Goodbye Ten" and is the music played when the Doctor regenerated from his 10th to 11th form.

(Also, a very, very pretty piece of music, even without its associated nerdery.)
 
Posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom (# 3434) on :
 
There are different kinds of counter tenors. Many are falsettists, but a few sing high in full voice. One of the more well-known examples of this is Kurt from Glee (to take a non-classical example). Robert Plant from Led Zeppelin, and the BeeGees sang in the countertenor region of their voices.

Xiao Ma
singing Vivaldi
Yoshikazu Mera My personal favourite singing Widestehe doch der Stunde from Bach's Cantata 54.
Chanticleer for the nicest choral countertenors.

[ 23. June 2012, 23:44: Message edited by: Arabella Purity Winterbottom ]
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Laurence:
I wouldn't want to be without them- Handel oratorios, Bach cantatas, Purcell anthems- they wouldn't be the same!
To say nothing of P.D.Q. Bach's Iphigenia in Brooklyn -- and, as with all of P.D.Q. Bach, the less said the better.
 
Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Counter-tenors, it should be understood, are male sopranos.
Not in my experience. Counter Tenors are quite common among church musicians, especially in cathedrals, and usually sing Alto.
 
Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Laurence:
I wouldn't want to be without them- Handel oratorios, Bach cantatas, Purcell anthems- they wouldn't be the same!
To say nothing of P.D.Q. Bach's Iphigenia in Brooklyn -- and, as with all of P.D.Q. Bach, the less said the better.
[Killing me] *wiping copious amount of tears from my eyes*
Thank you, Miss Amanda! A blast from the past! My brother and I used to listen to that and sing along many years ago!
 
Posted by AristonAstuanax (# 10894) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Laurence:
I wouldn't want to be without them- Handel oratorios, Bach cantatas, Purcell anthems- they wouldn't be the same!
To say nothing of P.D.Q. Bach's Iphigenia in Brooklyn -- and, as with all of P.D.Q. Bach, the less said the better.
HEY!
Don't go talkin' smack about my man PDQ!

Countertenors are indeed rare, but that's as much a matter of training as anything else—there's just not that much call for them these days. Now, are there plenty of egomaniac tenors who think they're able to do countertenor as well? Oh Sure. Can they actually do it? Very debatable. After all, it's not just enough to hit the right notes in falsetto—heck, I can do that, and sometimes do it shockingly (and disturbingly) well. The problem is trying to get enough power behind your falsetto, as well as counteracting all the training you've received in your normal voice range that teaches you to sing in your "normal" voice where you'd have once switched to a thinner falsetto.

Can it be done, though? Sure. There are tricks you can use to make your thinner, higher voice pierce and cut across to your audience, as well as . . . well, the best way I can put it is make the holes in your head resonate. It's not really what's going on, of course, but I have no idea what you're actually supposed to do to get that whole "my whole head's vibrating with the note" feeling you get when you're doing it right.
 
Posted by Polly Plummer (# 13354) on :
 
And quite a few of them have big beards in case you get the wrong idea about their masculinity.
 
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Wasn't Barry Gibb a counter tenor? Or was it Andy? At any rate methinks I'd better leave now.
 
Posted by Morlader (# 16040) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Polly Plummer:
And quite a few of them have big beards in case you get the wrong idea about their masculinity.
Well, facial hair anyway. And children, for the same reason.

My first encounter with a true counter tenor was in my mid-teens when, at a concert given by a visiting cathedral choir (men and boys), came the announcement "now Mr Boggis will sing a lullaby" and a 6ft 3 bearded man came on and sang. His wife and children applauded, as did I. A revelation compared with falsettists I had sung with until then.
I don't think the counter tenor voice is as rare as it seems; my theory is that men without lower octave speaking voices are embarassed to take up singing, unless they get very well-informed and sympathetic direction when their voices are changing from treble. "Your voice has broken; go away and come back when you're a tenor or bass" doesn't cut it. And they don't come back, of course. And these days there are few trebles...
I have met many counter tenors who don't sing (I used to embarass companions by asking/telling such men "Do you sing? Well, you should!"). I have met a few who do sing, but none in cathedral choirs, who seem to be falsettists*, but these days good ones. "Hooty, wordless" cathedral altos are a thing of the past, I believe.

As to range, the highest I have personally heard is G above the treble clef (oh, apart from a weird curate (how are you, Colin?) who could sing the Queen of the Night aria - stop sniggering at the back.)

Roy Orbison? Yes, though he was probably a falsettist*. As for others mentioned upthread, young (and not-so-young) girls like to sing in unison with falsettists/counter tenors, which sells records. So there are more doing it; and miking up means they don't need voice projection.

*Don't get me wrong, falsettists are very valuable in cathedral-repertoire choirs, even where adult women sing. I used sing (alto) in several such choirs. And for Purcell (who probably sung alto and bass in the same piece). And "first tenor" in male voice choirs. And the Kings Singers. Hmm, perhaps more common than generally thought.

[ 24. June 2012, 10:44: Message edited by: Morlader ]
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Almost all cathedral choirs use counter-tenors for their alto line - so much so, that it was recorded with shock when Lincoln decided last year to employ a female alto.

Our vicar is a counter-tenor: although he doesn't sing regularly with us, we are very glad when he finds the time to boost our alto line. We have also had male altos who are teenagers - eventually they sing tenor or bass, but learn to sing alto when their voices first start to change.

They can also be found in choral societies and chamber choirs, Mr. C's choir has two.

I love to hear a good male alto singing solo - James Bowman is one of my favourites.
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
The folk singer Richard Dyer-Bennet had a remarkably high-pitched voice. I don't know how it would be classified.

Moo
 
Posted by blackbeard (# 10848) on :
 
Blackbeard (second bass, lowest of the low so far as Western European music is concerned) finds this fascinating; no doubt in part due to an interest in acoustics.

Acoustically speaking, the voice consists of: lungs supplying air at (one hopes) the right pressure; folds (vocal folds) of skin-covered muscle full of nerve endings which are somewhat (only somewhat) reminiscent of double-reed instruments such as the oboe or bassoon; and a pipe (vocal tract) of more or less constant length but highly variable shape. And that's about it. The length of vocal folds and of the vocal tract vary a bit between people, but not by very much. Certainly not as much as one might expect, since by analogy with stringed instruments or organ pipes, if sopranos were five feet tall then basses would be fifteen feet tall.

And - oh yes, there's another bit of kit, or rather bits - the ears and the brain, which subconsciously control the whole apparatus and consciously tend to foul things up somewhat.

And the wonderful thing is that this arrangement, presumably adapted mainly for communication and warning, can produce music of expressiveness and beauty that no other musical instrument can match.

OK, back to topic. Countertenors (which for modern usage are the same animals as male altos, though Purcell might not have seen it that way) use a perfectly natural and normal function of the voice, even though they don't do it in quite the same way as baritones and basses. Men singing in the alto range seem quite normal now.

But it's not just the men who cross what used to be boundaries - recently one of out tenors gave birth. Indeed I once sang (bass!)in a choir that had more female than male tenors. Why not? Choirs are often short of tenors.

To some extent it's a question of supply and demand; for instance, we need men to sing parts originally written for castrati. The music is wonderful but getting a woman to sing it doesn't work as drama. And we have no castrati any more (I've heard of sacrifices in the cause of Art, but this is ridiculous). So, countertenors.

It can work at the other extreme; Eastern European liturgy has some VERY low parts which are sung by octivists (contra-basses); no, it's not a special genetic make-up, nor yet cheap cigarettes and vodka, just the need for these voices. Plus a LOT of practice. I think. Anyway, it's quite magnificent.

I'm sorry that's a bit of a ramble. I'm fascinated by this instrument that covers (from soprano highest notes to bass lowest) a range of about four octaves. More if you count extreme individuals. If we were organ pipes that would be a range of lengths with a ratio 16 : 1.
 
Posted by Laurence (# 9135) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
The music is wonderful but getting a woman to sing it doesn't work as drama.
It can if you have exceptional mezzos- and indeed, they're almost as rare as exceptional countertenors! Sarah Connolly plays breeches roles like nobody's business. Here she is being Julius Caesar- and out-manning everyone else on stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CJXlJCJSH4
 
Posted by blackbeard (# 10848) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Laurence:
... Sarah Connolly ......
yes, she is quite magnificent, isn't she? I still have to suspend disbelief a little, though (perhaps not as much as I need to do with first-century-BC soldiers in an eighteenth-century opera in nineteenth-century military uniforms. Plus, if I remember, early twentieth-century Zeppelins. Still, that's opera I suppose).
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
I have just bought a most marvellous CD of the counter-tenor Iestyn Davies singing Handel, Gluck etc. His rendering of "What is life" is utterly spendid. As someone said upthread, training has improved no end - and I am saying this as someone who heard James Bowman in his prime (both in Britten and Cavalli).
 
Posted by Cryptic (# 16917) on :
 
The point above about basses/countertenors is true in my experience - ie that basses can often sing in the countertenor range, and vice versa.

I've never met a tenor that can sing well in the countertenor range (plenty of them can't even sing well in the tenor range... [Eek!] )
 
Posted by Traveller (# 1943) on :
 
A local vicar, who is a friend of mine, was putting on a social evening at his church recently: "Music for a summer's evening". He roped in a few musical friends to form an impromptu madrigal group, which was fun.

He opened the evening singing a Purcell aria and also was part of the madrigal group where he sang alto in some items and tenor in others.

It can be done! [Big Grin]

Like so many things musical, technique, training and practice, practice and more practice is the way to improve.

Counter-tenors are in short supply, however, so if your son fancies a choral scholarship at an Oxbridge college, it is reputed to be easier to get in as a counter-tenor than as a tenor or bass. Singers, parents and vocal coaches just need to think about this three or so years before applications are due.
 
Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
Falsetto-counter tenors used to be fairly common in soul music -- Smokey Robinson, Curtis Mayfield are two who spring readily to mind. The reggae singer Junior Murvin too.
 
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :
 
And here's what is termed a male soprano, that is, a man singing soprano in his natural voice, not falsetto.
The voice is more powerful than many if not most counter-tenors, carrying well over orchestra and chorus. I find it quite thrilling, YMMV

The excerpt is from Meyerbeer's opera 'Il crociato in Egitto,' and the role is possibly the last one written for a castrato.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T4EMgRjh6o
 
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
As I understand it, most male altos' "natural" voice is bass, but they sing in their falsetto or head voice. I used to sing with one who could (and did) still sing all the descants and could make a passable go of the top Cs in the Allegri Miserere. [Eek!]

He could also sing tenor if required and was happily married with a couple of kids.
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
There are different kinds of counter tenors. Many are falsettists, but a few sing high in full voice.
Yep. I'm a countertenor, as well as a tenor. (I don't know how this worked out, really. At least not completely.) I don't get much chance to sing above the tenor range in my church choir (actually, I haven't told our director that I can sing that high) But in my other choir, I'm the only alto.

There is a difference between the weak wispy sound of a falsetto and the clear, full, rounded voice of someone singing from their head voice. There's a real fullness and richness that a countertenor has that is'nt anything like a (properly trained)falsetto. I honestly don't entirely know what produces it. I certainly don't think it's as simple as a well-trained falsetto voice.
 
Posted by Morlader (# 16040) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
There are different kinds of counter tenors. Many are falsettists, but a few sing high in full voice.
Yep. .... I honestly don't entirely know what produces it. I certainly don't think it's as simple as a well-trained falsetto voice.
Congrats, Silas. But, although I'm not certain how it is produced, there are very capable falsettists: Andreas Scholl, for example, sings mostly in falsetto, but speaks and sometimes sings in a (rather less resonant) baritone. True counter-tenors have no "broken voice" - hate the expression - and cannot sing baritone. Of course, all voices can be improved by careful, knowledgeable, training.

Incidentally, the director of the choir you sing tenor in probably wouldn't be surprised that you are a counter-tenor (if he/she is listening when you speak): if you have sufficient female contraltos you are much more valuable as a tenor who can sing high tenor parts with ease and without complaining.

Take care of your alto range and don't sing too loudly too low.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
And here's what is termed a male soprano, that is, a man singing soprano in his natural voice, not falsetto.
The voice is more powerful than many if not most counter-tenors, carrying well over orchestra and chorus. I find it quite thrilling, YMMV

The excerpt is from Meyerbeer's opera 'Il crociato in Egitto,' and the role is possibly the last one written for a castrato.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T4EMgRjh6o
What a voice! And if you take one of the side links I did, you can hear him singing Exultate Jubilate with great power and control.

There was a fellow in the choir at school a couple of years ahead of Dlet, whose normal voice was baritone. The choir director persuaded him to try counter tenor - he did and was then able to give much needed support to the altos (it being a boys' school, the life of an alto is about 6 months max, and that's not long enough to develop any great skill or experience in the voice).
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
Some years ago, I saw a man being interviewed on the television, who because of some unusual feature of his vocal chords, could sing all four voices. That is to say, when his voice broke, he did not lost his treble/suprano voice. When he sang in what would normally be the women's registers, he wasn't singing falsetto.

Apparently this is rare but not unknown, and he was much in demand to sing works originally written for castrati.

His normal speaking voice was middle range, just like any other man's. In the course of the interview, he referred several times and rather pointedly to his children.
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
There are different kinds of counter tenors. Many are falsettists, but a few sing high in full voice.
Yep. .... I honestly don't entirely know what produces it. I certainly don't think it's as simple as a well-trained falsetto voice.
Congrats, Silas. But, although I'm not certain how it is produced, there are very capable falsettists: Andreas Scholl, for example, sings mostly in falsetto, but speaks and sometimes sings in a (rather less resonant) baritone. True counter-tenors have no "broken voice" - hate the expression - and cannot sing baritone. Of course, all voices can be improved by careful, knowledgeable, training.

Oh, I know. But then there are many singers like Ian Howell who say (Protest even!)that they do not sing falsetto, or at least not truly.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Counter-tenors, it should be understood, are male sopranos.
Not in my experience. Counter Tenors are quite common among church musicians, especially in cathedrals, and usually sing Alto.
They used to be referred to in certain circles - with intended humour - as "cock altos." Like most basses I can turn my hand to the alto part when needed, but the results are not pretty. A half decent "cock alto" in a chrch choir has a voice fit for solo work, but the voice s a bit hooty. Countertenors differ a little from cock altos in that the former have a fullness voice that is a bit lacking in the latter. Also Countertenors often have large ranges and quite a few sing roles in Baroque opera, written for castrati, that were taken by mezzos and sopranos a generation or two back.


PD
 
Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Laurence:
Some have fine baritone voices, and can switch between the two to surprising effect- Andreas Scholl is one of them. Others should stick to singing countertenor as their bass/baritone/tenor voice just doesn't sound so decent.
And some - well Dudley Moore - can switch between them with remarkable speed.
 
Posted by blackbeard (# 10848) on :
 
Something of a tangent - and leaving Hinge and Bracket out of this for the time being -

Some singers (well, me) are a bit puzzled over the terms "falsetto" and "head voice" which seem to be confused but logically should be quite different.

Basses and baritones are generally clear so far as "falsetto" goes. It's that ridiculously girly voice used for outrageously hilarious female impersonations in the course of beer-fuelled stag evenings (tenors, of course, do not attend such events). So far as proper singing is concerned, it's used only for occasional special-effects (and, don't tell anyone, a last-ditch defence against composers who write top F sharp or G for the second basses - yes I have seen this). It lies about (alas, not exactly) an octave above the normal voice. It is not the same as the sensation of a well-produced high note seeming to come from higher up in the head.

Technically, I understand, it's related to a change in the vibration mode in the vocal folds.

I'm led to understand that the situation for other singers is far more complex, especially since the singer can't actually see what's going on but is compelled to rely on subjective sensations, which in their way are very useful but don't define the mechanism of sound production in the terms a physicist might use.

Opinions will differ, of course, and the whole matter is highly subjective, but it does seem to me that most (perhaps not all) counter-tenors are using the falsetto described above for at least part of their range. At any rate, that's how it sounds to me; of course, what they do is very much refined by technique and practice. This would account for their being able to sing occasionally in the baritone or bass range.

I'll give my apologies at this stage for my background being science, engineering and acoustics, rather than music - doubtless there are things which I do not Understand.

Quote from - was it Mark Deller?
"My father could sing baritone, but badly...".
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
Basses and baritones are generally clear so far as "falsetto" goes. It's that ridiculously girly voice used for outrageously hilarious female impersonations in the course of beer-fuelled stag evenings (tenors, of course, do not attend such events)....
And they only go out with girls who are vegetarian, librarians and ride bicycles.
 
Posted by blackbeard (# 10848) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
Basses and baritones are generally clear so far as "falsetto" goes. It's that ridiculously girly voice used for outrageously hilarious female impersonations in the course of beer-fuelled stag evenings (tenors, of course, do not attend such events)....
And they only go out with girls who are vegetarian, librarians and ride bicycles.
Really, Enoch, you are not taking that seriously?
 
Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :
 
I was not aware of Vale Decum and salute Spiffy for the link.

Cattyish
 
Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on :
 
I can think of 4 men I know who would prefer to sing alto, given a free choice, but as most choirs have too many altos and not enough tenors, they aren't necessarily encouraged to do so! I've had to move down to first tenor regularly as we can't find enough competent tenors.

Off the subject of classical countertenors, does anyone happen to know what Bobby McFerrin's total vocal range is? (He used to do the Cadbury's adverts about 20 years ago, and also the snowman sequence at the beginning of "Finding Nemo"; also "Don't Worry Be Happy", but used less of a range in that one.)
 


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