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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Pediatrician Dad Waterboards 11 yr. old Daughter WTF?!?
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
Pediatrician Dad Waterboards Daughter. I find it unconscionable to waterboard adults, but waterboarding a child, much less your own 11 year old daughter?!? Of course, dear old dad also made lots of money on his research of "near death experiences" of children, along with duping, err being interviewed by the likes of Oprah and Larry King. I've got to wonder if his kids played any part in his "research". His wife was present for some of the waterboardings and was also arrested.
He was caught when a neighbor called 911 to report him for dragging the girl by the ankle across a gravel driveway and daughter ratted him out during the police interview. The girl's 5 year old sister also witnessed her sister being waterboarded and commented she "wasn't old enough yet for that punishment".
This man is one sick, evil fuck and is the definition of sociopath. Perhaps one of his jail mates will introduce him to the experience of water boarding.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I wonder if he will argue reasonable chastisement based on the same arguments the US government has used to say it is neither torture nor dangerous.
Sounds like a Shipman in the making.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
This man is one sick, evil fuck and is the definition of sociopath. Perhaps one of his jail mates will introduce him to the experience of water boarding.
I've heard that child abusers get much worse in prison.
My own daughter plays next to me as I write this, and I look at her and wonder how anyone cannot see it as their duty to protect their own children from harm, much less how anyone could torture their own children.
'WTF' indeed. May God have mercy.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think˛:
I wonder if he will argue reasonable chastisement based on the same arguments the US government has used to say it is neither torture nor dangerous.
Sounds like a Shipman in the making.
Dad's argument to the child seems to be you have 5 minutes before any brain damage occurs. Unfortunately, said daughter stated he often became distracted and she'd worry he's lose track of time completely. That's part of the torture. I say he's got some major brain damage himself.
He can try the U.S. government argument, but I think even the U.S. government will admit it's beyond the pale, though I do have to check whether the 2 very young teens caught up and sent to Guantanamo were ever waterboarded.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
My own daughter plays next to me as I write this, and I look at her and wonder how anyone cannot see it as their duty to protect their own children from harm, much less how anyone could torture their own children.
According to the article, the kid is his stepdaughter. He may not see her as his child at all.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Which is totally fucked. A step-child or biological child - any child, in fact, living in your home - has every right to expect a standard of care from the adults in charge of his home. So many actually don't get it.
But this does not surprise me. Age does not imply adulthood.
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Even more so than I was before
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
My own daughter plays next to me as I write this, and I look at her and wonder how anyone cannot see it as their duty to protect their own children from harm, much less how anyone could torture their own children.
According to the article, the kid is his stepdaughter. He may not see her as his child at all.
But the 5 year old is his daughter and matter of factly stated she's been told she's not old enough yet for this punishment. I don't think he sees kids as human.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
My own daughter plays next to me as I write this, and I look at her and wonder how anyone cannot see it as their duty to protect their own children from harm, much less how anyone could torture their own children.
According to the article, the kid is his stepdaughter. He may not see her as his child at all.
But the 5 year old is his daughter and matter of factly stated she's been told she's not old enough yet for this punishment. I don't think he sees kids as human.
If he's going to cite 'reasonable chastisement' then I'm sure that's applicable to your children, whether adopted, step- or biological. No wonder the fourth commandment is in such disrepute.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Which is totally fucked. A step-child or biological child - any child, in fact, living in your home - has every right to expect a standard of care from the adults in charge of his home. So many actually don't get it.
But this does not surprise me. Age does not imply adulthood.
Maturity is not the issue. Sounds very much the sociopath, from the information so far.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I take it "Water-boarding" is a modern term for the old Ducking-stool technique used on those accused of Witchcraft in olden days ?
Why the goodness fuck is someone doing this to a minor in the 21st Century ?
I don't go with all the sociopath stuff . It's just a simple case of an evil basstard who's been caught doing an evil basstard thing.
It's well past high-time to dispense with all the psycho-babble and bang these morons up . End of.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I take it "Water-boarding" is a modern term for the old Ducking-stool technique used on those accused of Witchcraft in olden days ?
Why the goodness fuck is someone doing this to a minor in the 21st Century ?
I don't go with all the sociopath stuff . It's just a simple case of an evil basstard who's been caught doing an evil basstard thing.
It's well past high-time to dispense with all the psycho-babble and bang these morons up . End of.
Not quite, do you really think we haven't made progress in 500 years. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Broadly AIUI it simulates* the effects of drowning without (in theory) any actual drowning and therefore it isn't torture and is quite moral actually. (being British and much more moral, we have to pay nativey chaps to please not use this plastic sheet and tap).
*as in on a reflex level, your brain may know you're perfectly safe, but your mouth is convinced and won't breathe. If you instead projected waves onto the walls you could have the opposite effect.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
Broadly AIUI it simulates* the effects of drowning without (in theory) any actual drowning and therefore it isn't torture and is quite moral actually.
I do hope you're being sarcastic. Especially when this is done to a child.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
It was meant to be.
Thought so, but wanted to be sure.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
It was meant to be.
Thought so, but wanted to be sure.
Quite right too, switching from sarcasm to a (hopefully) factual statement (the mechanism) to sarcasm mid sentence was pretty stupid of me.
Especially when I was using phrasing that had been used by people in all seriousness.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
From the article:
"her father had disciplined her by what he called “waterboarding” — holding the daugther’s face under running water, causing the water to fill her nostrils and over her face."
It was more than just waterboarding. The dad of the year would follow his crying daughter after the punishment and tell her she was lucky he didn't use duct tape and hold her mouth and nose. “He would not let go until she lost feeling and collapsed to the ground.”
Punishments like time out are designed to make the transgressing child think about their behavior.
Punishments like this "waterboarding" and whatever quaint name can be given to suffocation are designed to psychologically torture the child. Maybe it makes the child think about their behavior. More probably it messes with that child's whole life.
If you are a child you look to your parents (by blood, or not) to be your anchor and security in life. Children who know they have safety are more apt to feel secure enough to grow and explore their world. God only knows what that poor girl feels about her world now.
I would love to hear that weasel's explanation of why he did what he did.
No. Actually, I don't want to know what he says. What he says simply no longer matters.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Morlader
Shipmate
# 16040
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Posted
This. Except it's a slur on weasels.
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.. to utmost west.
Posts: 858 | From: Not England | Registered: Nov 2010
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf
Punishments like this "waterboarding" and whatever quaint name can be given to suffocation are designed to psychologically torture the child. Maybe it makes the child think about their behavior. More probably it messes with that child's whole life.
The most effective punishments are unpleasant enough that the child wants to avoid them, but not so overwhelming that he cannot think clearly about how to avoid them.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
The most effective punishments are unpleasant enough that the child wants to avoid them, but not so overwhelming that he cannot think clearly about how to avoid them.
That depends on what you mean by effective. There are ways of avoiding punishment which do not necessarily involve total compliance. Punishment can encourage people to become devious rather than moral. Of course, if all the punisher wants is a quite life, than that is effective, but it's no way to capture hearts and minds.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
The most effective punishments are unpleasant enough that the child wants to avoid them, but not so overwhelming that he cannot think clearly about how to avoid them.
That depends on what you mean by effective. There are ways of avoiding punishment which do not necessarily involve total compliance. Punishment can encourage people to become devious rather than moral. Of course, if all the punisher wants is a quite life, than that is effective, but it's no way to capture hearts and minds.
It's also no way to equip a child to be able to live life as a successful and happy adult.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
And it often leads to the child growing up to be 'mentally unstable.' Or 'fucked up,' as we say over here.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
The OP link isn't working for me, but here's another.
His experiments, which he seems to do to supposrt his theory of a 'god spot', remind me of Nazi experimentation. Creepy and deeply unjust. Very evil.
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
This man is one sick, evil fuck and is the definition of sociopath. Perhaps one of his jail mates will introduce him to the experience of water boarding.
I've heard that child abusers get much worse in prison.
This kind of vicious thinking will not do.
Either we wish to confront and punish criminals in a controlled and legal fashion; or, we are one step away from the vigilante mob, where we license out our fantasies of revenge and retribution against the object of our loathing to other malefactors whom we loathe less.
We cannot remain civilized while we wish extra-judicial torture and rape upon criminals we fear and abhor.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
This man is one sick, evil fuck and is the definition of sociopath. Perhaps one of his jail mates will introduce him to the experience of water boarding.
I've heard that child abusers get much worse in prison.
This kind of vicious thinking will not do.
Either we wish to confront and punish criminals in a controlled and legal fashion; or, we are one step away from the vigilante mob, where we license out our fantasies of revenge and retribution against the object of our loathing to other malefactors whom we loathe less.
We cannot remain civilized while we wish extra-judicial torture and rape upon criminals we fear and abhor.
That is my thinking when I've had a few minutes to get over the initial rage over what the man has done and think rationally and civilly. I also made that statement knowing it would never happen because we do protect child rapists, torturers and murderers. I think it's only natural to have the thoughts of an "eye for an eye" punishment. I do when it involves children or other helpless individuals. After all, wasn't that the law of the OT given by God? But we are under a new covenant. Justice will be served by this man being stripped of his medical license and never seeing the light of day outside of prison again. He'll also likely be held in solitary and that is both punishment and opportunity for repentance.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
BTW, I suspect you already knew what I just posted, but couldn't resist a nice judgmental post. I know very few, if any people who don't have a first reaction of eye for eye judgment when a child is involved, but the vast majority of us do know what is right and don't fantasize for extended periods of violence - unless it's our kid.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Niteowl2, thank you for your considered reply; I appreciate it. However:
quote:
I also made that statement knowing it would never happen because we do protect child rapists, torturers and murderers.
In point of fact, we do not do this in the United States. It's common knowledge that those incarcerated for sex-crimes offences suffer disproportionately from predation by everyone else, higher in the prisoner hierarchy. Thy frequently are segregated for their protection.
Solitary confinement for lengthy periods of time is torture.
The eye-for-an-eye biblical injunction is an injunction of mercy not severity. It was meant to stop retributive violence against the offender and the offender's family disproportionate to the original crime.
So, no, mine was not a 'nice judgmental post,' but one meant to inveigh against a sanctioned savagery built in to the incarceration industry, at least in the United States.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Niteowl2, thank you for your considered reply; I appreciate it. However:
quote:
I also made that statement knowing it would never happen because we do protect child rapists, torturers and murderers.
In point of fact, we do not do this in the United States. It's common knowledge that those incarcerated for sex-crimes offences suffer disproportionately from predation by everyone else, higher in the prisoner hierarchy. Thy frequently are segregated for their protection.
Solitary confinement for lengthy periods of time is torture.
The eye-for-an-eye biblical injunction is an injunction of mercy not severity. It was meant to stop retributive violence against the offender and the offender's family disproportionate to the original crime.
So, no, mine was not a 'nice judgmental post,' but one meant to inveigh against a sanctioned savagery built in to the incarceration industry, at least in the United States.
But the judgement was aimed at 2 of us who posted out of our initial rage at what was done to this child and you had to have known it was just that.
Child sex/physical abuse/murders are kept in solitary for their own protection, not as punishment. Unless we want to build separate prisons for them - and that's not an option with the overcrowding at the moment. I am opposed to private prison systems as they have higher instances of prisoner and guard abuses. Building any extra prisons is going to take tax dollars and our esteemed citizenry is averse to that at the moment along with taxpayer aversion to higher taxes. California is now releasing even some violent offenders due to overcrowding and budget cuts. Not sure what the answers are. But one thing I do know is that the offender in this case needs to be in jail for the protection of his kids and society and if he is to be protected he needs to be in solitary. And that's a good place to begin thinking about changes in one's life. Perhaps prayer is in order to affect that change.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
The most effective punishments are unpleasant enough that the child wants to avoid them, but not so overwhelming that he cannot think clearly about how to avoid them.
That depends on what you mean by effective. There are ways of avoiding punishment which do not necessarily involve total compliance. Punishment can encourage people to become devious rather than moral. Of course, if all the punisher wants is a quite life, than that is effective, but it's no way to capture hearts and minds.
The kind of punishment I had in mind is not allowing your kid to go to his friend's house the next day as punishment for getting home from his friend's an hour later than he was supposed to. I don't think it's possible to raise a child without ever punishing him.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
The most effective punishments are unpleasant enough that the child wants to avoid them, but not so overwhelming that he cannot think clearly about how to avoid them.
That depends on what you mean by effective. There are ways of avoiding punishment which do not necessarily involve total compliance. Punishment can encourage people to become devious rather than moral. Of course, if all the punisher wants is a quite life, than that is effective, but it's no way to capture hearts and minds.
The kind of punishment I had in mind is not allowing your kid to go to his friend's house the next day as punishment for getting home from his friend's an hour later than he was supposed to. I don't think it's possible to raise a child without ever punishing him.
Moo
That works for me.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
[We] posted out of our initial rage at what was done to this child and you had to have known it was just that.
Boo hoo.
You want to endorse extra-judicial punishment in one post and then chide me for taking you at your word in another?
No, I am not a mind reader.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
This guy is Dr. Melvin Morse, a pediatrician from Seattle who made a name for himself by writing books about children's near-death experiences... which, when you think about what he's accused of, makes me feel creepy all over. Maybe he was trying to cause his step-daughter to have a near-death experience so he could add it to his research. What I find puzzling and frightening is that his wife apparently went along with it. I wonder if he ever tried to waterboard her?
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
[We] posted out of our initial rage at what was done to this child and you had to have known it was just that.
Boo hoo.
You want to endorse extra-judicial punishment in one post and then chide me for taking you at your word in another?
No, I am not a mind reader.
No, but you are quite judgmental. I don't give a shit - my sympathies lie with the child, not the adult. Especially because he was the parent who was supposed to nurture and protect her. And the next time some adult tortures, rapes or murders a child I'll have that same moment of rage, realizing our justice system will do it's job of protecting their right to a fair trial and then protection while they are in jail. Is it a perfect justice system? No. It'll take a lot of tax money and a leveling of the access to quality representation for everyone to achieve that and unfortunately I don't see that happening. I'll then move on to rational feelings toward the perpetrator and hoping he gets justice in every sense of the word and that his child never has to see him again.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
This man is one sick, evil fuck and is the definition of sociopath. Perhaps one of his jail mates will introduce him to the experience of water boarding.
I've heard that child abusers get much worse in prison.
This kind of vicious thinking will not do.
Either we wish to confront and punish criminals in a controlled and legal fashion; or, we are one step away from the vigilante mob, where we license out our fantasies of revenge and retribution against the object of our loathing to other malefactors whom we loathe less.
We cannot remain civilized while we wish extra-judicial torture and rape upon criminals we fear and abhor.
I was simply stating what I understood to be the case: that child abusers and rapists do tend to suffer more in prison than the other inmates. I personally never qualified the statement with a moral judgement.
But it makes logical sense, doesn't it? You throw the most despicable subjects of humanity it with a bunch of violent criminals who don't share your understanding of justice (but who still have their own moral code) and what else do you expect to happen?
Everyone in the system knows that this happens. If the powers that be wanted to protect these guys, then they could.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
This man is one sick, evil fuck and is the definition of sociopath. Perhaps one of his jail mates will introduce him to the experience of water boarding.
I've heard that child abusers get much worse in prison.
This kind of vicious thinking will not do.
Either we wish to confront and punish criminals in a controlled and legal fashion; or, we are one step away from the vigilante mob, where we license out our fantasies of revenge and retribution against the object of our loathing to other malefactors whom we loathe less.
We cannot remain civilized while we wish extra-judicial torture and rape upon criminals we fear and abhor.
I was simply stating what I understood to be the case: that child abusers and rapists do tend to suffer more in prison than the other inmates. I personally never qualified the statement with a moral judgement.
But it makes logical sense, doesn't it? You throw the most despicable subjects of humanity it with a bunch of violent criminals who don't share your understanding of justice (but who still have their own moral code) and what else do you expect to happen?
Everyone in the system knows that this happens. If the powers that be wanted to protect these guys, then they could.
They're kept in segregation and have a protected status. They're not in with the general population or you'd not have the amount of child abusers who are released from prison. Those instances where something occurs are usually because dirty guards set something up. They need to go after them and make the punishment stiff.
The one thing I do hate and it's happened in this thread - there is more attention paid to the perpetrator - and ensuring his well being than that of the victim. I fear the children are going to get lost in this.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Pesky little tangent this is. Especially when we really ought to get on with breathing heavily and fretting about...the children! quote:
the most despicable subjects of humanity
Makes a delicious TICTH kind of thread, doesn't it? Yum, yum. Select out them who have nothing in common with us. Then we can wring our hands and beat our breasts over those people and their behavior who aren't at all like us. quote:
a bunch of violent criminals who don't share your understanding of justice
Quite right. Violent criminals are a kind unto themselves, sui generis. We could never be their parents, or brothers, or children. quote:
If the powers that be wanted to protect these guys, then they could.
Yup. I'm all right, Jack; too bad about those publicans.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
TSA, attacks in Hell are really fun, aren't they?
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Pesky little tangent this is. Especially when we really ought to get on with breathing heavily and fretting about...the children! quote:
the most despicable subjects of humanity
Makes a delicious TICTH kind of thread, doesn't it? Yum, yum. Select out them who have nothing in common with us. Then we can wring our hands and beat our breasts over those people and their behavior who aren't at all like us. quote:
a bunch of violent criminals who don't share your understanding of justice
Quite right. Violent criminals are a kind unto themselves, sui generis. We could never be their parents, or brothers, or children. quote:
If the powers that be wanted to protect these guys, then they could.
Yup. I'm all right, Jack; too bad about those publicans.
Oh shove your cherry picking quotes to suit your own agenda and your sanctimonious self righteousness and judgmentalism SA.
On this thread I'm concentrating on a little girl who was repeatedly tortured in a manner where she thought she was going to die. There is also a 5 year old girl who stated she saw this, but no it wasn't done to her yet because she isn't old enough. That just boggles my mind. I'm not going to change my focus and fuck you if you think I am. I don't wish physical harm to the guy, but he needs to be locked up for the rest of his life for the protection of kids (he has a fascination of near death experiences for kids and has made quite a bit of money on it) and society in general. That is moral. If he needs to be segregated for his own protection so be it. If there needs to be discipline of others to ensure that he stays protected do it. But don't for one minute take the focus off of the 2 little girls who suffered abuse at the hands of the one they were supposed to be able to trust above all. They need your sympathy because I have a feeling life is going to be very dark for a long, long time.
And you know what? This guy is going to get a fair trial and there is a system in place for his protection. If there are guards that set up abuse of ANY prisoner, because it happens and not just to child abusers, go after them with a vengeance. There was a major scandal and investigation here in California and guards were sacked and charged. But there are still events that happen and when things get leaked, guards get charged. Guards don't get held accountable often enough IMO, but that is no reason to start beating one's breast about people going to jail for their actions. That is a separate issue entirely.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
TSA, to my eyes you do seem to be reading quite a lot into not very many words.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
TSA, to my eyes you do seem to be reading quite a lot into not very many words.
He's got to make himself look good. A fail from my perspective. I wonder how he feels about the little girls as he's not mentioned them once.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I'm not sure how to read that. I know this is hell, and this topic generates hear, but I think you go too far.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Generates heat, not "hear".
If only it did generate hear and not heat...
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I'm not sure how to read that. I know this is hell, and this topic generates hear, but I think you go too far.
If you're referring to my last post on TSA you could be right - and if proven wrong I'd be right there with an apology. But he hasn't acknowledged once in this thread the evil that was done to an 11 year old girl and the damage done to a 5 year old in seeing this and now thinking it's normal punishment for an older child. All this from a trusted parent figure who also has specialty medical license for pediatrics - again a position of trust. Instead he's spent every post, going to great lengths in the last one, condemning quite a few persons in this thread and especially me because we've expressed our rage over what this man did. Yes, I do believe the man deserves punishment - i.e. prison, not the crap he's laid on me. I do hold the prison employees responsible for keeping ALL prisoners safe as there is a system in place to do that. Those who commit crimes need to be prepared to face the consequences as we all do for our behavior. I've had one speeding ticket I've faced the music for and a few tremendously stupid words and actions that cost me quite a bit personally - and I deserved it. I'm forever grateful for God's grace and try in that same grace to forgive others, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to open the doors from prisons for violent offenders. There's a lot wrong with the prison system and we need to work to change it - in the mean time they exist for a reason and everyone who commits a crime knows what they may face. It's one reason more people don't rob, rape, murder, etc. etc.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
in the mean time they exist for a reason and everyone who commits a crime knows what they may face. It's one reason more people don't rob, rape, murder, etc. etc.
No, that is rubbish. Prisons exist to punish. Their existence may prevent some from thieving and such, but rape, child abuse and the like do not work that way.
Not saying I do not think such perpetrators should not be locked away, indeed, I think they should never see freedom again. But because I do not think they can truly be changed and I am not willing to risk anyone else' welfare.
An initial response of rage is natural. It is not what one initially feels, but what one ultimately does, that is important.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Prisons exist to punish. Their existence may prevent some from thieving and such, but rape, child abuse and the like do not work that way.
They are also prophylaxis. Someone in prison has no access to children to abuse.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
in the mean time they exist for a reason and everyone who commits a crime knows what they may face. It's one reason more people don't rob, rape, murder, etc. etc.
No, that is rubbish. Prisons exist to punish. Their existence may prevent some from thieving and such, but rape, child abuse and the like do not work that way.
Not saying I do not think such perpetrators should not be locked away, indeed, I think they should never see freedom again. But because I do not think they can truly be changed and I am not willing to risk anyone else' welfare.
An initial response of rage is natural. It is not what one initially feels, but what one ultimately does, that is important.
Until some hardliners got into office here prisons were also a place of rehabilitation, offering counseling, job training, education - both high school and university - and other services essential to being able to function successfully in society upon release. Sadly, prison sentences have been extended for anyone who commits 3 felonies, whether those felonies are violent crimes or not and university education and a lot of the job training have been eliminated. Fortunately, substance abuse and other counseling have been continued. But as a result of the 3 strikes law and extended sentencing guidelines we now have overcrowding conditions. And I do insist that violent offenders need a period, generally a long one, of separation from society and at the moment that is also the purpose of prison. I do agree with you that child abuse perpetrators generally do not seem to be capable of reform for whatever reason.
And I also agree - and which is what I said and TSA ignored - that it is the later response which matters and which is rational.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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PerkyEars
slightly distracted
# 9577
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Posted
quote:
What I find puzzling and frightening is that his wife apparently went along with it. I wonder if he ever tried to waterboard her?
It doesn't puzzle me at all. Women who will allow their children to be abused by a man they like having sex with are as common as abusive men. It's easy for them to pretend to be domestic abuse victims when it suits them - because while people quickly and easily lable a violent man 'evil', we suppose that for a woman to be 'evil' she must have really been abused by a man. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I'd like to see sentencing for women whos partners abuse their children, as a recognition of their joint parental responsibility and of the years of betrayal and turning a blind eye these women are responsible for.
Posts: 532 | From: Bristol | Registered: May 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
And you know what? This guy is going to get a fair trial and there is a system in place for his protection.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
You're delusional.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
And you know what? This guy is going to get a fair trial and there is a system in place for his protection.
You're delusional.
With all the money he's made with his books and practice I'm sure he'll be able to afford a good lawyer. It has it's fault, but our justice system is still one of the best.
There is a system in place to protect child abusers. What matters is the prison personnel adhering to it. I'm a firm believer that prison personnel must be held accountable when their actions result in the injury of a prisoner. They are occasionally, though not often enough.
I am not willing to open the prison doors for anyone who abuses, tortures, rapes or murders a child because of faults in the system - and I don't apologize for that. Especially those in places of trust and authority for the children they hurt. The faults in the system are a separate issue that people can and should fight to get corrected.
As I said, the emphasis on this thread should be for the victims whose lives are irrevocably affected, most likely for the rest of their lives.
The mother is also being charged in this case for simply standing by and watching while her child was tortured.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
It has it's fault, but our justice system is still one of the best.
There is a system in place to protect child abusers. What matters is the prison personnel adhering to it.
No, our justice system is not one of the best. It is profoundly broken, but the only people who seem to know it's broken don't have the power to do anything about it.
quote:
I am not willing to open the prison doors for anyone who abuses, tortures, rapes or murders a child because of faults in the system - and I don't apologize for that. Especially those in places of trust and authority for the children they hurt.
How very brave of you.
I know the world is an imperfect place and some assholes do abuse children, but have you ever actually heard of someone who defended their actions as being right?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
It has it's fault, but our justice system is still one of the best.
There is a system in place to protect child abusers. What matters is the prison personnel adhering to it.
No, our justice system is not one of the best. It is profoundly broken, but the only people who seem to know it's broken don't have the power to do anything about it.
Beats the snot out of a good many systems where the defendent is denied the right to challenge witnesses against them, or where the verdict has been decided by the gov't prior to the trial. It has it's faults, but a person is entitled to a trial by a jury of his peers or by a judge, the right to legal counsel, the right to access to all evidence against him as well as any exculpatory evidence, the right to challenge any witnesses in court and the right to testify or not and the right to appeal any judgement. Have there been wrong verdicts? Yes, but considering the numbers freed in recent years new technologies are giving a chance to them. The problems likes with idiot humans - corrupt police or prosecutors, prejudiced jurors or where those with money for a team of high paid lawyers can do a better job than a poor overworked public defender. Problems? Yes? Broken? No, it's still working and I'll take it over many others.
quote:
I am not willing to open the prison doors for anyone who abuses, tortures, rapes or murders a child because of faults in the system - and I don't apologize for that. Especially those in places of trust and authority for the children they hurt.
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
How very brave of you.
I know the world is an imperfect place and some assholes do abuse children, but have you ever actually heard of someone who defended their actions as being right?
I'm glad you're willing to let them skip jail and you can have them live next door to you. I especially want the child abusers away from the kids. I want them in jail for an appropriate term with counseling, job training and whatever else they need to make their next appearance in society successful.
And again, the focus of this thread is 2 children who where harmed by the asshole who was supposed to be their protector. There is an 11 year old girl who was tortured and a 5 year old who saw it and now thinks torture is natural. Doesn't that disturb you?
[ 15. August 2012, 01:59: Message edited by: Niteowl ]
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
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