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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Ireland: Silenced priest, dissident laity
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
Ireland's Association of Catholic Priests have released details of a survey which sheds light on the 84% of the Republic's population that declared themselves to be Roman Catholics in the 2011 census.
Headline figures are:
- 87% of Irish Catholics believe priests should be able to marry
- 77% believe that there should be women priests
- 35% regularly attend Mass each week
There are other issued highlighted including attitudes to homosexuality and attitudes to those in second relationships after separation or divorce.
The release of the survey, taken in February, comes on foot of news of the silencing by the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith of Fr. Tony Flannery OP, one of the main convenors of the Association. Tony Flannery was a regular contributor to the Redemptorists' magazine Reality and conducted novenas. He was noted for his liberal position on contraception and his support for the ordination of married men.
Link to today's Irish Times article:
Irish Times article, 12th April 2012
On Holy Thursday, Pope Benedict was reported as "chiding" priests and laity who wished to change the Church "in accordance with one's own preferences and ideas".
Link: Irish Times, Satuday 7th April 2012
The veteran letter writer, Mrs. Mary Stewart, commented along similar lines to many other conservative Catholics in the Irish blogosphere when she suggested that those who found themselves in opposition to the Magisterium should leave the Church and likened them to "false prophets".
Link: Letters to the Editor, Thursday 12th April 2012
[ 12. April 2012, 18:17: Message edited by: Ronald Binge ]
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
The report summary is here.
With Catholics like these, who needs Protestants? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
Wow is Mary Stewart still going...
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
With Catholics like these, who needs Protestants?
...which is the issue. While the Irish Republic has moved on greatly in terms of Catholic / Protestant relations, there is still a strongly tribal element to both Catholic and Protestant identities which prevents disillusioned Catholics from looking beyond the confines of their ancestral church. In other countries disaffected Catholics simply join other churches. Not so in Ireland (usually). Being Irish Catholic is a little like being Jewish.
[ 12. April 2012, 20:00: Message edited by: Yerevan ]
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
quote:
With Catholics like these, who needs Protestants?
...which is the issue. While the Irish Republic has moved on greatly in terms of Catholic / Protestant relations, there is still a strongly tribal element to both Catholic and Protestant identities which prevents disillusioned Catholics from looking beyond the confines of their ancestral church. In other countries disaffected Catholics simply join other churches. Not so in Ireland (usually). Being Irish Catholic is a little like being Jewish.
Irreligion rather than other churches in general as even ex-Catholics find it hard to shake the One True Church thing.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The report summary is here.
With Catholics like these, who needs Protestants?
Every Episcopal priest longs for the day when all the Roman Catholic in the United States who agrees more with TEC than with Rome become Episcopalians. And if only 35% attend mass every Sunday? Our ASA will still soar through the roof.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The report summary is here.
With Catholics like these, who needs Protestants?
Every Episcopal priest longs for the day when all the Roman Catholic in the United States who agrees more with TEC than with Rome become Episcopalians. And if only 35% attend mass every Sunday? Our ASA will still soar through the roof.
I somehow doubt that, they'd find most Catholics dreadfully common.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
They'll fit right in. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 12. April 2012, 20:57: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Bran Stark
Shipmate
# 15252
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Posted
I really wish the media would stop putting priestly celibacy and the ordination of women in the same box. Only one of them is a Catholic dogma.
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IN SOVIET ЯUSSIA, SIGNATUЯE ЯEAD YOU!
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
I really wish the media would stop putting priestly celibacy and the ordination of women in the same box. Only one of them is a Catholic dogma.
But the media doesn't see them in terms of dogma and discipline; it sees them in terms of "silly things those farty old bishops think are important."
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
I really wish the media would stop putting priestly celibacy and the ordination of women in the same box. Only one of them is a Catholic dogma.
Neither is dogma for Anglicans.
Though I can understand why Irish Catholics might be reluctant to attend the Church of Ireland.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
I really wish the media would stop putting priestly celibacy and the ordination of women in the same box. Only one of them is a Catholic dogma.
Neither is dogma for Anglicans.
Though I can understand why Irish Catholics might be reluctant to attend the Church of Ireland.
Would Church of Ireland congregations have us?
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
I really wish the media would stop putting priestly celibacy and the ordination of women in the same box. Only one of them is a Catholic dogma.
But the media doesn't see them in terms of dogma and discipline; it sees them in terms of "silly things those farty old bishops think are important."
And this is not the media but the results of research commissioned by the (presumably Irish) Association of Catholic Priests under 'Shortage of Catholic Priests" in 'Church Structures'.
It is comforting (to me) to see the Irish retain their independence of thought and and do not conform to any the official (ideal type) of What Catholics Believe.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
And this is not the media but the results of research commissioned by the (presumably Irish) Association of Catholic Priests under 'Shortage of Catholic Priests" in 'Church Structures'.
It is comforting (to me) to see the Irish retain their independence of thought and and do not conform to any the official (ideal type) of What Catholics Believe.
Dissident group in commissioning study that agrees with their prejudices shocker! In other news bears do indeed shit in the woods... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
Classy comment on the letters page of the Times today from one chap in Donegal:
"Fr Flannery is free to write whatever lunacy or heresy crosses his mind - he is just not free to call it Catholic. The real scandal lies with Fr Flannery and his ilk, who comfortably remain within a church that they have little in common with"
Interesting that as well an atheist, who nominally has no horse in this particular race insists in his letter that those who don't swallow the whole package must not be Catholics. Maybe it's an Irish trait to want everyone else to fall into neat, definable packages.
Link to Irish Times Letters, 13th April 2012
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
And this is not the media but the results of research commissioned by the (presumably Irish) Association of Catholic Priests under 'Shortage of Catholic Priests" in 'Church Structures'.
It is comforting (to me) to see the Irish retain their independence of thought and and do not conform to any the official (ideal type) of What Catholics Believe.
Dissident group in commissioning study that agrees with their prejudices shocker! In other news bears do indeed shit in the woods...
For some reason I am reminded of a catchphrase I used to hear round and about (in a Dublin accent): "Denial is a river in Egypt" ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by Ronald:
quote:
"Denial is a river in Egypt"
I've never heard that with a dub accent, but I have with a Belfast one - same as, 'de Lagan is what I put on me boiler.'
In an otherwise good document relating to the child sex abuse scandals recently, there was a curious statement about priests thinking naughty thoughts. It gave no detail and I posted a thread about it a while ago - perhaps this is what it was referring to. There might be some surprise as to how many priests think this way as opposed to how many laity think this way. Of course you will never get a true picture because so many won't want to rock the boat or commit such heretical thoughts to a paper record - even if it is in anonymous statistics. As for the Church of Ireland having Catholics - well, we have done that for some time, but on the other hand we don't like to be seen as sheep stealing. It doesn't quite further the Gospel aims (although it might swell the coffers a little) and it's not the sort of activity that we particularly want to be involved in seeing how it can be divisive, increase community tension and ruin relationships. This is not to say that people leaving one denomination and joining another are not welcome, but the vast majority of Episcopalians in Ireland are not so stupid as not to know to be both careful and sensitive. The Church of Ireland tends to be somewhat conscious of its past contribution to division in Irish society and its not terribly keen to repeat past errors.
posted by yeveran
quote:
...there is still a strongly tribal element to both Catholic and Protestant identities...
What exactly do you mean by this? One persons attribution of 'tribal' is another persons understanding of community. Most people living in Ireland regardless of what denomination they belong to (who have lived with this accusation for a long time - long after the 1970's when it was likely last seen) find this a deeply insulting, sectarian stereotype. Of course you can find a village somewhere in the back of beyond where Jimmy won't buy bacon from the Proddy shop, but believe it or not, the entire populace is not represented by a single fool in a backwater in Kerry.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I'm sure that what you say about the community in Ireland is correct,FC, but from the poster who said that it is only in Ireland that disaffected Catholics don't join other churches,I would like to know which 'church' disaffected Catholics in Italy,Spain,Portugal,Slovenia,Croatia,Lithuania and Poland might join ? Whilst there is freedom of religion in all of these countries,the part played in the religious life of the nation by communities other than the Catholic church is minimal.
Of course there are many 'disaffected' Catholics,but this disaffection rarely inclines them to join some other religious group.An insider knowledge of the RC church would let one know that the Church is in many respects a broad church with people having many and various personal beliefs.At the end of the day,however, one has to say 'I believe' (or at least not to have said 'I don't believe' if one wishes a Catholic funeral.
I didn't mention Belgium earlier on,but I have to say that throughout the country I have only once seen a non-Catholic church,apart from the foreign communities which maintain a presence in the country as well as some American style evangelistic groups generally meeting in houses or small halls rather than churches.I'm not exactly an expert on Belgium but have travelled widely there throughout the three linguistic areas.I know many 'disaffected' Belgian Catholics but don't know anyone who has joined another church.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Tom Paine's Bones
Apprentice
# 17027
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I would like to know which 'church' disaffected Catholics in Italy,Spain,Portugal,Slovenia,Croatia,Lithuania and Poland might join?
This lot, in Spain, seem to be making a very deliberate pitch for disaffected Catholics, stressing that their organisation is is an indigenous Spanish church with strong Catholic roots, spun off by people who disagreed with the Roman hierarchy. [Apologies if you can't read Spanish, but Google Translate will give you the gist.]
I don't know how 'successful' they are, in terms of numbers, growth and trajectory, or whether they actually succeed in attracting Spaniards as well as the English ex-pat community - but it does show what a "'culturally Irish Catholic', but dissident on 'Dead Horses'", church might look like.
[ 13. April 2012, 17:31: Message edited by: Tom Paine's Bones ]
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Paine's Bones:
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I would like to know which 'church' disaffected Catholics in Italy,Spain,Portugal,Slovenia,Croatia,Lithuania and Poland might join?
This lot, in Spain, seem to be making a very deliberate pitch for disaffected Catholics, stressing that their organisation is is an indigenous Spanish church with strong Catholic roots, spun off by people who disagreed with the Roman hierarchy. [Apologies if you can't read Spanish, but Google Translate will give you the gist.]
I don't know how 'successful' they are, in terms of numbers, growth and trajectory, or whether they actually succeed in attracting Spaniards as well as the English ex-pat community - but it does show what a "'culturally Irish Catholic', but dissident on 'Dead Horses'", church might look like.
A grand total of one diocese and 20 odd priests after 130 years tells one everything one needs to know.
I also see from that site they are as fond of pseudo-history as their confrères in Britain and Ireland.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I have no idea how many English ex-pats they have,but that cannot be too much of an advert for their 'Spanishness' (if this word exists).
I should have thought that Anglican ex-pats would have gone more readily to English speaking Anglican missions.
I found it interesting that they had a large picture of Queen Eugenie of Spain on their website with the rubric 'Nacida anglicana'(born Anglican)They omitted to mention that Queen Eugenie had become a Catholic and not a member of the Spanish Reformed Episcopal church.I have nothing at all against the Spanish Reformed episcopal church,nor any of its members.Of course there will be some people who have come into it from the Catholic church,presumably all the original members from about 150 years ago,but there are a tiny minority within Spain,probably smaller than the indigenous Protestant (Waldensian) community in Italy.
I make no comment as to why Queen Eugenie became a Catholic (Roman) nor as to why the present Quenn Sofia (also featured on the website) became a Catholic,probably for the same reasons that the daughter-in law of the English Princess Royal abandoned the Catholic faith.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Here it seems that disaffected Catholic do join the Church of Ireland, but not in large numbers, though quite singnificant percenatge wise. Mary Kenny agrees.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I have no idea how many English ex-pats they have,but that cannot be too much of an advert for their 'Spanishness' (if this word exists).
I should have thought that Anglican ex-pats would have gone more readily to English speaking Anglican missions.
I found it interesting that they had a large picture of Queen Eugenie of Spain on their website with the rubric 'Nacida anglicana'(born Anglican)They omitted to mention that Queen Eugenie had become a Catholic and not a member of the Spanish Reformed Episcopal church.I have nothing at all against the Spanish Reformed episcopal church,nor any of its members.Of course there will be some people who have come into it from the Catholic church,presumably all the original members from about 150 years ago,but there are a tiny minority within Spain,probably smaller than the indigenous Protestant (Waldensian) community in Italy.
I make no comment as to why Queen Eugenie became a Catholic (Roman) nor as to why the present Quenn Sofia (also featured on the website) became a Catholic,probably for the same reasons that the daughter-in law of the English Princess Royal abandoned the Catholic faith.
The Waldensians have abandoned all traces of distinctiveness and are just plain Methodists these days.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Here it seems that disaffected Catholic do join the Church of Ireland, but not in large numbers, though quite singnificant percenatge wise. Mary Kenny agrees.
Nowadays there is a large degree of social snobbery involved in the small number of Irish Catholics "taking the soup", so to speak, with regards to the CofI.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Classy comment on the letters page of the Times today from one chap in Donegal:
"Fr Flannery is free to write whatever lunacy or heresy crosses his mind - he is just not free to call it Catholic. The real scandal lies with Fr Flannery and his ilk, who comfortably remain within a church that they have little in common with"
The comment is naive rather than classy in thinking that half the people that identify as Roman Catholics do not hold with all Roman Catholic teaching is a scandal. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Waldensians aren't just plain Methodists these days they still have distinctives like using the Hugeneot cross in their chapels.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
The Waldensians have abandoned all traces of distinctiveness and are just plain Methodists these days.
Given that Methodists these days in practice have little that is meaningfully in common with what Wesley preached, that's not saying a great deal; almost all Christian traditions move on and most have become barely recognisable over the past 100 years (barring the Orthodox and a very few uber Protestants) in terms of liturgical practice.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I have no idea how many English ex-pats they have,but that cannot be too much of an advert for their 'Spanishness' (if this word exists).
I should have thought that Anglican ex-pats would have gone more readily to English speaking Anglican missions.
I found it interesting that they had a large picture of Queen Eugenie of Spain on their website with the rubric 'Nacida anglicana'(born Anglican)They omitted to mention that Queen Eugenie had become a Catholic and not a member of the Spanish Reformed Episcopal church.I have nothing at all against the Spanish Reformed episcopal church,nor any of its members.Of course there will be some people who have come into it from the Catholic church,presumably all the original members from about 150 years ago,but there are a tiny minority within Spain,probably smaller than the indigenous Protestant (Waldensian) community in Italy.
I make no comment as to why Queen Eugenie became a Catholic (Roman) nor as to why the present Quenn Sofia (also featured on the website) became a Catholic,probably for the same reasons that the daughter-in law of the English Princess Royal abandoned the Catholic faith.
The Waldensians have abandoned all traces of distinctiveness and are just plain Methodists these days.
It was after the Synod of Chanforan in 1532 that the Poor Men of Lyons felt that they had little choice but to throw in their lot with the continental reformers. The resulting 'Waldensian Church' has retained some distinctive features, of course. These may make them look like 'just plain Methodists' but they certainly predate Wesley by a couple of centuries.
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I have no idea how many English ex-pats they have,but that cannot be too much of an advert for their 'Spanishness' (if this word exists).
I should have thought that Anglican ex-pats would have gone more readily to English speaking Anglican missions.
I found it interesting that they had a large picture of Queen Eugenie of Spain on their website with the rubric 'Nacida anglicana'(born Anglican)They omitted to mention that Queen Eugenie had become a Catholic and not a member of the Spanish Reformed Episcopal church.I have nothing at all against the Spanish Reformed episcopal church,nor any of its members.Of course there will be some people who have come into it from the Catholic church,presumably all the original members from about 150 years ago,but there are a tiny minority within Spain,probably smaller than the indigenous Protestant (Waldensian) community in Italy.
I make no comment as to why Queen Eugenie became a Catholic (Roman) nor as to why the present Quenn Sofia (also featured on the website) became a Catholic,probably for the same reasons that the daughter-in law of the English Princess Royal abandoned the Catholic faith.
The Waldensians have abandoned all traces of distinctiveness and are just plain Methodists these days.
It was after the Synod of Chanforan in 1532 that the Poor Men of Lyons felt that they had little choice but to throw in their lot with the continental reformers. The resulting 'Waldensian Church' has retained some distinctive features, of course. These may make them look like 'just plain Methodists' but they certainly predate Wesley by a couple of centuries.
They amalgamated with the Italian Methodists in 1975 and have progressively come more into line with the general praxis of the World Methodist Council.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Classy comment on the letters page of the Times today from one chap in Donegal:
"Fr Flannery is free to write whatever lunacy or heresy crosses his mind - he is just not free to call it Catholic. The real scandal lies with Fr Flannery and his ilk, who comfortably remain within a church that they have little in common with"
The comment is naive rather than classy in thinking that half the people that identify as Roman Catholics do not hold with all Roman Catholic teaching is a scandal.
I was being ironic, using words like "lunacy" and "ilk" are far from making a classy argument.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
I really wish the media would stop putting priestly celibacy and the ordination of women in the same box. Only one of them is a Catholic dogma.
Neither is dogma for Anglicans.
Though I can understand why Irish Catholics might be reluctant to attend the Church of Ireland.
Would Church of Ireland congregations have us?
Too much baggage For many Catholics to attend the C of I if they even know it exists
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I have no idea how many English ex-pats they have,but that cannot be too much of an advert for their 'Spanishness' (if this word exists).
I should have thought that Anglican ex-pats would have gone more readily to English speaking Anglican missions.
I found it interesting that they had a large picture of Queen Eugenie of Spain on their website with the rubric 'Nacida anglicana'(born Anglican)They omitted to mention that Queen Eugenie had become a Catholic and not a member of the Spanish Reformed Episcopal church.I have nothing at all against the Spanish Reformed episcopal church,nor any of its members.Of course there will be some people who have come into it from the Catholic church,presumably all the original members from about 150 years ago,but there are a tiny minority within Spain,probably smaller than the indigenous Protestant (Waldensian) community in Italy.
I make no comment as to why Queen Eugenie became a Catholic (Roman) nor as to why the present Quenn Sofia (also featured on the website) became a Catholic,probably for the same reasons that the daughter-in law of the English Princess Royal abandoned the Catholic faith.
Most English ex-pats in Spain attend CoE Diocese of Europe chaplaincies, of which there are a few dozen, the greater part of the Archdeaconry of Gibraltar, which includes Spain and Portugal. Anglophone SEC members tend to be Africans, such as in Salamanca and many of the newer hispanophone members are Latino evangelicals from Ecuador and Columbia. Most non-RC Spaniards are decided non-believers; most people I have spoken with assume that believers are RC, and non-believers are not. While there is a vague awareness that non-RC Xn churches exist, I have yet to meet anyone who is a member of any of them. It is useful to remember that the RCC is not thought of as a denomination as we think of them-- it is firstly the Church of Spain and the Spanish people and incidentally a part of the world-wide RCC.
*end of Iberian tangent* In my 6 years in Ireland, I only met a very few RCs who had become CoI. The ones I knew were all conscientious objectors to aspects of the remnants of ultramontane Catholicism, such as one was surrounded by in the 1970s. Socially, they were (with one exception) middle-class, usually the 3d or 4th generation of graduates in their family, and normally not republican in leaning.
In the circumstances of Northern Ireland at the time, almost anyone who shifted from RC to CoI or vice versa would have done so for reasons of marriage, and would have likely emigrated-- although I knew a (very) few exceptions.
I am not surpised at the recent shift--as with French CAnada, I think that a combination of a changing sense of national identity and remarkable loss of credibility of RC bishops in the wake of the sexual abuses has had a greater effect on loyalty than we had expected. In the 1970s and 1980s, this movement would have been unthinkable.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Interesting that as well an atheist, who nominally has no horse in this particular race insists in his letter that those who don't swallow the whole package must not be Catholics. Maybe it's an Irish trait to want everyone else to fall into neat, definable packages.
Here's the thing. Everybody always goes on about how the Church should show pastoral patience, extend her hand to those who have fallen outside of her fold, etc. Fine.
What people do not seem to realize is that similarly, those who are apart from the Church should also try hard to close the gap again. It's really a two-way street.
I don't mind the Church accommodating to near breaking point any sort of sin, heresy and schism - if in those sinners, heretics and schismatics there is also a present, visible and active intent to accommodate the Church to their own near breaking point.
What I see often instead, in particular among the vocal dissidents, is an attitude of "I am right, the Church is wrong, and she can bloody well accept my rightness outright, that's my good right." To this, I believe, the proper answer is "Feel free to fuck off then." There is a time and a season for everything, and some people just seem to require the door hitting their butt on the way out...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut
It is useful to remember that the RCC is not thought of as a denomination as we think of them-- it is firstly the Church of Spain and the Spanish people and incidentally a part of the world-wide RCC.
That's rather how we think of the CofE. It's a big difference between us and those who call themselves Episcopalians.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB
What I see often instead, in particular among the vocal dissidents, is an attitude of "I am right, the Church is wrong, and she can bloody well accept my rightness outright, that's my good right." To this, I believe, the proper answer is "Feel free to fuck off then."
While I can see where the temptation to say that comes from, how does that fit with seeking the ninety-ninth sheep or the lost coin?
Even thinking that, yet alone saying it, is likely to ensure that those who leave or even just drift away, will never come back. To repent is hard enough anyway, without people getting the idea that we don't want them to and they are unwelcome if they do.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I think that the idea of denomination in the sense in which it is used by anglophone people in really unknown in many other countries.Unless there are considerable numbers of christians of different confessions living in the one country there is really just 'the Church' and a few other christians.
Even in France whether people are believers or not there is 'Eglise '(church i.e. RC church ) and then there are the others - 'Temple'(traditional Protestant church)plus some others ,but the Protestants of whatever grouping make up no more than 2% of the population,less than the Moslems.
In Scandinavia the 'Church' would mean the National Lutheran church and there are few other Christians (Catholics about 1%)
In Greece the 'Church' would mean the Orthodox with very few other isolated Christian groups
England ,although it does indeed have a State church the CofE does not command the allegiance of the same percentage of the population and there are many other Christian groups who are very visible ,at least on the religious scene.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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glockenspiel
Shipmate
# 13645
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Posted
Could I just point out that no one with a deep/regular involvement in any kind of 'club' simply takes on the whole 'package' as it happens to be, at that time; Membership and participation brings with the right and duty to put forward proposals for CHANGES to certain policies and practices, from time to time.
Posts: 1258 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Apr 2008
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Interesting that as well an atheist, who nominally has no horse in this particular race insists in his letter that those who don't swallow the whole package must not be Catholics. Maybe it's an Irish trait to want everyone else to fall into neat, definable packages.
Here's the thing. Everybody always goes on about how the Church should show pastoral patience, extend her hand to those who have fallen outside of her fold, etc. Fine.
What people do not seem to realize is that similarly, those who are apart from the Church should also try hard to close the gap again. It's really a two-way street.
I don't mind the Church accommodating to near breaking point any sort of sin, heresy and schism - if in those sinners, heretics and schismatics there is also a present, visible and active intent to accommodate the Church to their own near breaking point.
What I see often instead, in particular among the vocal dissidents, is an attitude of "I am right, the Church is wrong, and she can bloody well accept my rightness outright, that's my good right." To this, I believe, the proper answer is "Feel free to fuck off then." There is a time and a season for everything, and some people just seem to require the door hitting their butt on the way out...
After forty-four years of mass disobedience on Humanae Vitae, and the crisis of confidence post the abuse cases, why the imperative now for dissidents to "fuck off"?
I respectfully suggest to anyone here to educate themselves as to just how the Church interacted with the most vulnerable in Irish society in the years post-independence up to the 1980s.
Why was deviance from sexual morality effectively a crime here?
Why did institutional corruption, especially with regard to the inferface between planning and politics take such a hold here?
These are just two of the bigger questions about Ireland that Rome should ponder before waving the "smaller purer Church" stick at Christians who are doctrinally orthodox on everything else other than what would be peripheral matters elsewhere.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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lapsed heathen
Hurler on the ditch
# 4403
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Interesting that as well an atheist, who nominally has no horse in this particular race insists in his letter that those who don't swallow the whole package must not be Catholics. Maybe it's an Irish trait to want everyone else to fall into neat, definable packages.
Here's the thing. Everybody always goes on about how the Church should show pastoral patience, extend her hand to those who have fallen outside of her fold, etc. Fine.
What people do not seem to realize is that similarly, those who are apart from the Church should also try hard to close the gap again. It's really a two-way street.
I don't mind the Church accommodating to near breaking point any sort of sin, heresy and schism - if in those sinners, heretics and schismatics there is also a present, visible and active intent to accommodate the Church to their own near breaking point.
What I see often instead, in particular among the vocal dissidents, is an attitude of "I am right, the Church is wrong, and she can bloody well accept my rightness outright, that's my good right." To this, I believe, the proper answer is "Feel free to fuck off then." There is a time and a season for everything, and some people just seem to require the door hitting their butt on the way out...
After forty-four years of mass disobedience on Humanae Vitae, and the crisis of confidence post the abuse cases, why the imperative now for dissidents to "fuck off"?
I respectfully suggest to anyone here to educate themselves as to just how the Church interacted with the most vulnerable in Irish society in the years post-independence up to the 1980s.
Why was deviance from sexual morality effectively a crime here?
Why did institutional corruption, especially with regard to the inferface between planning and politics take such a hold here?
These are just two of the bigger questions about Ireland that Rome should ponder before waving the "smaller purer Church" stick at Christians who are doctrinally orthodox on everything else other than what would be peripheral matters elsewhere.
Good questions, I'll have a go;
Sexual morality became a mark of Irishness, we all heard the tails of what the godless English got up to and so it became a thing we could use to emphasis how different we were.
Corruption? usually attributed to post colonialism but tbh it has to do with the way we do business.
1 Family, 2 parish, 3 friends, 4 suitability then 5 capability. Thats the order of preference when selecting someone, something or some idea.
I think the 'fuck off stick' is a smokescreen, a way to blame the church general, rather than face the truth that the church institute failed.
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"We are the Easter people and our song is Alleluia"
Posts: 1361 | From: Marble county | Registered: Apr 2003
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jordan32404
Shipmate
# 15833
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Paine's Bones:
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I would like to know which 'church' disaffected Catholics in Italy,Spain,Portugal,Slovenia,Croatia,Lithuania and Poland might join?
This lot, in Spain, seem to be making a very deliberate pitch for disaffected Catholics, stressing that their organisation is is an indigenous Spanish church with strong Catholic roots, spun off by people who disagreed with the Roman hierarchy. [Apologies if you can't read Spanish, but Google Translate will give you the gist.]
I don't know how 'successful' they are, in terms of numbers, growth and trajectory, or whether they actually succeed in attracting Spaniards as well as the English ex-pat community - but it does show what a "'culturally Irish Catholic', but dissident on 'Dead Horses'", church might look like.
When I was studying in Spain, I worshiped with the IERE (as it is known in Spanish). I can say that I was the only non-Spaniard or Latino there. The majority of the Sunday morning crowd were Spaniards. They had a Saturday evening vespers service designed for Latinos (or so the Bishop told me). I don't know how they do numerically but the Cathedral is always full and they just started a new parish in Zaragoza.
Posts: 268 | From: Albany, NY | Registered: Aug 2010
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
I was being ironic, using words like "lunacy" and "ilk" are far from making a classy argument.
Sorry. I missed the irony.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
...Too much baggage For many Catholics to attend the C of I if they even know it exists
The Church of Ireland is no longer seen as the church of the (fading) Ascendancy.
I think most Irish Catholics, even in the remotest West, would know it because it has a presence.
It's more the Diaspora Irish who remember things as they were. Things have changed. Really changed.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Ireland has always suffered from its diaspora telling those that live there what its really like to live there - even when that diaspora hasn't set foot in the land for over twenty years.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
...Too much baggage For many Catholics to attend the C of I if they even know it exists
The Church of Ireland is no longer seen as the church of the (fading) Ascendancy.
I think most Irish Catholics, even in the remotest West, would know it because it has a presence.
It's more the Diaspora Irish who remember things as they were. Things have changed. Really changed.
It has to do with Protestantism fullstop. Conversion to any Protestant denomination was, and on an atavistic level still is, regarded as an implied rejection of Irishness, both culturally and politically - conversion is the ultimate display of cultural cringe. One can argue about the fairness or accuracy of such an attitude but that is the bottom line, that is the historical baggage.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by CL:
quote:
It has to do with Protestantism fullstop. Conversion to any Protestant denomination was, and on an atavistic level still is, regarded as an implied rejection of Irishness, both culturally and politically - conversion is the ultimate display of cultural cringe. One can argue about the fairness or accuracy of such an attitude but that is the bottom line, that is the historical baggage.
Actually, in a lot of respects this is really quite wrong. It is right in the sense that after the end of the civil war Ireland was keen to make sure that being Irish was also understood as being Roman Catholic, but this is a created myth (and lets face it - it's a myth thats coming on nearly a hundred years old) - one that was not missed, nor under criticised by the poets and playwrights of the period (just look at the utterly scathing and venomous attacks on this idea dished out in almost every Sean O'Casey play). Take a look at just how many 'Protestants' were involved in both Ireland's developing sense of freedom from British rule and independence, and how many collected the mythos, music and culture that would have been completely forgotten and in most cases permanently lost otherwise. But things have moved on. You only have to take a look at the last two census reports to see whats really going on and the pattern that may be emerging. There was once a time when people here viewed their own history through a Catholic nationalist lens, but those days are long gone from Ireland's cities. The vast majority of people who live with Muslims Sikh's, Hindu's, and Orthodox Christians of multiple type just don't see Ireland and 'Irishness' as being divided into two camps of 'Protestants' and 'Catholics' - how could they, unless they live in a bubble? Now granted there are those rural areas where modern life has left places untouched and unchanged, but they are relatively rare today and this land is changing very quickly. However, if we are talking about Northern Ireland - well thats another days work where politics and religion are still tied in an unhelpful way.
[ 16. April 2012, 10:55: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
When I lived in Belfast, I noticed that if a Catholic converted to Protestantism, the Catholics referred to this as 'falling away'.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
While I can see where the temptation to say that comes from, how does that fit with seeking the ninety-ninth sheep or the lost coin?
The lost sheep gets brought back to the herd by the shepherd, it's not that the herd is being led to the lost sheep. The coin is not actively trying to hide itself. If people go all out on the "here I stand, I can do no other" shtick, then they cannot complain about the consequences.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Even thinking that, yet alone saying it, is likely to ensure that those who leave or even just drift away, will never come back. To repent is hard enough anyway, without people getting the idea that we don't want them to and they are unwelcome if they do.
Whereas repentance will happen if the Church goes out of her way to affirm whatever bullshit people come up with, dreading nothing more than causing the slightest offence? As I've said, it's a two-way street. I'm all for the Church making the first move, but there must be a response forthcoming. The Church is not an arbitrary heap of goodwill. She does stand for something and if you ferociously insist on standing elsewhere, then you should not be allowed to pretend that you stand with her. That does nobody any good.
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
After forty-four years of mass disobedience on Humanae Vitae, and the crisis of confidence post the abuse cases, why the imperative now for dissidents to "fuck off"?
There is no special imperative now. Dissidents that keep their dissidence low key have always been and will always be tolerated on pastoral grounds. That's part of the tit-for-tat of accommodation: if you don't rock the boat then you will not be dropped overboard. The difference is more that now many people have decided that it's time to do their dissidence loud an proud.
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Why was deviance from sexual morality effectively a crime here?
What do you imagine "crimes" are, other than sufficiently unwanted deviances from the socially normative standard of morality?
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Why did institutional corruption, especially with regard to the inferface between planning and politics take such a hold here?
I don't know. But why would that be of any relevance to the question whether one has to accept the "whole package" of being Catholic?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
...Too much baggage For many Catholics to attend the C of I if they even know it exists
The Church of Ireland is no longer seen as the church of the (fading) Ascendancy.
I think most Irish Catholics, even in the remotest West, would know it because it has a presence.
It's more the Diaspora Irish who remember things as they were. Things have changed. Really changed.
It has to do with Protestantism fullstop. Conversion to any Protestant denomination was, and on an atavistic level still is, regarded as an implied rejection of Irishness, both culturally and politically - conversion is the ultimate display of cultural cringe. One can argue about the fairness or accuracy of such an attitude but that is the bottom line, that is the historical baggage.
My point, simply, was that Ireland and the Irish had changed dramatically in the last century.
It appears to me to be more difficult these days to confute 'Irish' and 'Catholic'.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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