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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: My funeral
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
When I die, I want a Christian funeral. Is this selfish of me?
I am biased. This is not only because I'm a Christian, and have a desire for the committal to be from a priest called to be there to pray for my departure into God's loving embrace, and for the genuine prayers of Christian friends.
It's also because I've found the creeping sickly false words and smiles from 'civil celebrants' and their put-together so-called 'services' to be shudderingly off-putting. They rely on the genuine feelings of the families and friends to carry it off, and then give a parting-shot to vulnerable people loaded with their own ideas of what happens next, if anything, to the departed. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) Perhaps my experiences are not typical? I hope not!
Of course I want the service to be meaningful to everyone who attends, but how can this be achieved? If you're a non-believer, do you feel excluded at Christian funerals? Would you arrange a 'civil ceremony' for a Christian relative? If you're a Christian, how important is a Christian funeral to you?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I think thoughtful advance directives, given to the people in your life with the authority to act on your estate's behalf, are precisely for this type of situation.
Although I was told of a case of post-mortem sheep-stealing involving a local elderly woman whose fundamentalist family disapproved of her non-fundamentalist church and female pastor, and when she was sick and unable to advocate on her own behalf her children banished the pastor and representatives of her church from the list of approved hospital visitors and made sure that her funeral was out of their church, not hers. I'm told that her own church family (who sound like the real family here anyway) were really heartbroken by all this, and had an ex officio memorial service for her at her church. I can see an aggressively non-theist family pulling the same stunt with family member who's a believer, which is all the more reason to get one's final wishes in writing in a legally binding form.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
I would think most people would expect to attend a Christian funeral for a person who was a Christian - especially if that person's religion had been important to him or her.
Most people can "do the math" - i.e., translate what the officiant is saying into her or his own religion's teachings, or connect it with her or his own feelings, etc. If there's to be Communion/Mass, most people can sort out on their own whether they want to receive or not. My own experience working in a church is that for a well-attended funeral (e.g., one where lots of co-workers and extended family & friends attend), maybe about a third of the people will receive Communion, so those who don't certainly feel no pressure; they're in good company.
It can also be a meaningful time for Christian survivors (friends and family), and an opportunity for the Church to be welcoming to people who might not go to church otherwise - so make sure you pick a good church!
Actually, that last bit is probably the answer to your question about putting people off who aren't Christians. Pick a church that won't do that. Pick a church where they won't turn your funeral into an evangelizing opportunity, but will simply show the love of God to the bereaved.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Thank you for the real life example LutheranChik, a demonstration of the true human kindness we all hope for - not!
I hadn't considered the possibility of such cruelty when nearing death, it is as you said a reminder of the importance of advance directives, concerning both before and after death.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
And we can organize in advance with the church we belong too, what hymns we want and who is to talk etc etc.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I don't think it's in any way reprehensible to want a funeral in accord with your faith and practice, Raptor Eye.
Although they say funerals are for the bereaved, not the deceased, I think where and how the funeral takes place is partly a statement of where the deceased was belief-wise. There is a lot more to say about the person than whether they were an Anglican etc.
Even if, due to unfortunate circumstances, as outlined by LutheranChik, the funeral is inappropriate for the person, I don't think the Almighty or the deceased are particularly worried, especially if their true faith community do something appropriate.
It is a crazy world and people do crazy things.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Bernard Mahler
Shipmate
# 10852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
And we can organize in advance with the church we belong too, what hymns we want and who is to talk etc etc.
Lo and behold! I have an appointment next Tuesday morning with our parish priest to do just that. My next-of-kin actually asked me what sort of funeral I wanted, so no problem there.
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"What does it matter? All is grace" Georges Bernanos
Posts: 622 | From: Auckland New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2006
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I'd also echo the advice to find a church home where funerals aren't normally turned into come-to-Jesus evangelism opportunities.
I attended one such affair -- the person was unchurched, and I think the bereaved probably found the pastor in the phone book -- where the gist of the sermon was that So-and-So was probably in hell because there was no discernable evidence that she had Accepted Jesus As Her Personal Savior [tm], and that everyone assembled had better shape up so that that same fate didn't befall them.
"Thank you, sir. May I have another?"
You don't get this sort of thing at a Lutheran funeral. You also generally don't get flowery eulogies. (They're pretty much discouraged.) Just a basic message according the deceased the dignity of being recognized as a child of God and fellow member of the human race worth being remembered and a message of God's love and grace and ultimate victory over death... without a sales pitch, without overwrought/speculative commentary on the deceased's character and/or salvific status and without fearmongering.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I told this story before elsewhere but I think it supports LutherChik's point. When I was a chaplain in the Air Force I had the duty to perform a funeral for a serviceman who committed suicide because he did not want to go to a remote assignment--I think it was in the North Sea. His family was from a fundamentalist Baptist church. They wanted their pastor to say a few words. To say the least it was a hell fire and damnation sermon in which the preacher damned the man to hell and gone. By the time he was done the family was devastated. Then it was my turn to say something. I chucked what I had prepared and spoke a few minutes about the quintessence of the Gospel--that God's love is all encompassing. I did not say anything critical of the Baptist preacher, but I could tell he was unhappy. He actually got up and stormed out about half way through what I was saying. He did not even attend the committal.
Two years later I happened to be visiting another base on a TDY. I went to cash a check at the Base Exchange. The teller, it turned out, was the widow of the serviceman. She took the time to thank me once again for what I had said and said it meant so much for her to recall my words when she was feeling down and out.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I do have to tell the story my pastor told a couple of weeks ago.
There was a elderly lady who knew she was about to die. She called in her pastor to tell him of a special request she wanted to make. The pastor heard her out and agreed to the request.
A few weeks later the woman died. When they had the funeral the casket had remained closed, but after the benediction the funeral director opened the casket so all could pay their last respects (not usually done in Lutheran funerals}. As the people filed by they noticed the woman was holding a fork.
Just before the committal the pastor paused and addressed the group. "Friends," he said, "Mildred had told me whenever she went to a church potluck she had always been told to save her fork. She knew when that happened dessert was next. She wanted to keep her fork with her as a way of telling you the best is yet to come."
Yes, the best is yet to come.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I gave the eulogy at the funeral for my father. He died at 94 in a semi-rural township near Melbourne. My father's family had been Anglican since the Reformation and he definitely had faith. The church was packed. Quite a pleasant, normal sermon by a normal Anglican cleric. She did it tastefully.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
The funeral incident that I remember was that of a priest, who tended to be almost abrasively Low, left strict instructions concerning his funeral. Firstly, there was to be no Requiem Mass, and secondly, a certain prayer, which can be taken as leaving the door open for belief in Purgatory was to be omitted. The paper outlining his wishes was handed to his bishop with a smile and the words "If the minister taking my funeral ignores these instructions I will come back and haunt the bastard!"
PD
[ 22. April 2012, 03:41: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
When I pop my clogs my body goes to the nearby medical college so some young thing can learn something by cutting me up - the remains, if any, to be cremated and the ashes put it in the river the same place we put my dad's.
Hopefully there will be no eulogy and no spoken prayers as I would rather go out gently and quietly after the manner of Friends.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
Raptor Eye's question is one that has bothered me from time to time. My family are Orthodox Presbyterian and opposed both to Anglicanism and the ordination of women.
I am an Anglo-Catholic, and when I go I want the full kit and caboodle, incense, choir, aspersing, and all observation fitting to being a priest (vested, feet towards congregation, etc). I also want to be buried under a tree, in an unmarked grave. I do not want to be cremated, and am adamant about this.
Given my family's background I don't quite trust them (should I predecease them) to do this for me. As I am single, I have left envelopes with instructions with a couple of close friends, my sister (who is not of the same persuasion as my folks), and I will continue to leave an envelope with my warden in whichever parish I am currently serving.
[ 22. April 2012, 05:35: Message edited by: Nunc Dimittis ]
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
In English law the ultimate decision is, I believe, down to the Executor of the deceased's estate so let your executor know in good time and make sure they are sympathetic - if not then change your executor!
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Nunc , Make a will and appoint an executor you can trust. Leave very specific instructions with the executor. The executor is the person entitled to the body and strictly is the only one who can make funeral arrangements. Perhaps your instructions should direct aspersing the congregation, with particular attention to some of its members......
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
As an atheist I'd find it absurd to be offended by a Christian who planned a Christian funeral for themself. If it contained a lot of preaching against teh gayz I'd probably not want to go that persons funeral unless I knew it was hijacked.
I'd also expect OP to attend without complaint a non religious for an atheist who had made such plans if OP wanted to attend the funeral.
I'm flashing back to a time when I was an aids phone counselor in Boston before gay marriage was legal there. The legal situation was that the biological family could dictate the the disposition of the body, no matter what the deceased had wanted or his his lover had arranged. Since wills could be arranged otherwise there were actually bequests made to family that were conditional on obeying the deceased plans to be buried with their lover in the religion of their chosing instead of the religion of the family that had thrown them out. It was a form of buying your body back from your family. Hopefully that's all obsolete now that Massachusetts has gay marriage.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
I'd imagine that any Christian funeral where the friends and family were treated with love and the Christian hope was clearly conveyed would be inherently 'evangelistic'? I'd prefer a funeral focused on that rather than nattering on about me and my life, and if it brought anyone closer to faith I'd be very happy. I guess that makes me an advocate of evangelistic funerals then ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
If I am honest, the only thing I want regarding my funeral is that I am dead. Funerals are not for the person who has passed, but for those who are left.
Having said that, it makes sense to ensure that the funeral reflects the dead person, and is an appropriate tribute to them. So a funeral of an avowed atheist, where God is an important part would be wrong. As vv.
It should be a celebration of their life, and a chance for those left behind to mark a point in their grieving. End of. Except that it also provides a dignified way of body disposal.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
If I am honest, the only thing I want regarding my funeral is that I am dead. Funerals are not for the person who has passed, but for those who are left.
Having said that, it makes sense to ensure that the funeral reflects the dead person, and is an appropriate tribute to them. So a funeral of an avowed atheist, where God is an important part would be wrong. As vv.
It should be a celebration of their life, and a chance for those left behind to mark a point in their grieving. End of. Except that it also provides a dignified way of body disposal.
As mentioned elsewhere, my funeral is apt to include at some point a posthumous Mormon baptism (unless I've managed at that point to tick them off so much they can't bear the thought of eternity w/ me!). So I tend to have an equally laissez-faire perspective. Better to worry about our relationship and what happens between us in this life, what happens when I'm dead and gone I'm fairly certain won't concern me much. Funerals almost always reflect the faith of the bereaved more than the deceased, I don't see much of a problem with that.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Amika
Shipmate
# 15785
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Posted
In the two most recent funerals I've attended, one was a Christian service for an old work colleague and the other was a semi-secular one for my father. I found the one for my old friend to be moving - it took place at the crematorium, not in a church - and the celebrant, a retired vicar, was excellent. My father's funeral, just three months later at the same crematorium, was not so impressive. He was an atheist but my mother wanted a little religion at his funeral and so we had hymns, but the celebrant's words were non-religious.
For my sister and I the funeral was awful, but I don't think it was anything to do with religion, or lack of it. The celebrant's words rang hollow with us. He had never known our dad and he was saying (nice) things about him that were only partly true. It all seemed false - one size fits all. In the case of my old friend, the vicar had clearly not known her but somehow he exuded a more caring air, and spoke about her in a way that moved the congregation. I can't really put it any more clearly than that.
It got me thinking, as an atheist myself, that I don't want a funeral like my dad's! As an occasional churchgoer I do know the vicar of my local church, and my mother seems to have become more religious of late. Since the funeral wouldn't be for me as I'd be gone, I'm thinking it's either that or a committal with no funeral at all (which would be my sister's choice!).
Posts: 147 | From: Ingerland | Registered: Aug 2010
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I want a Requiem Mass celebrated by an episcopally ordained priest in purple (not black - old fashioned, nor white - that's for virgins) I have chosen the hymns and I want the coffin aspersed and censed (in the right direction or I'll; haunt!)
The requiem is the key thing.
i recently took a funeral which had been scripted word for word by the deceased - even as far as directing what should appear in the homily.
Many of the relatives talked to me about this afterwards - was it a good thing to leave detailed instructions? My response was that it did help those who were arranging the funeral at such a difficult time but it can also be a bit arrogant (I could get away with saying the latter because they'd said similar things).
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I have the sad feeling that should I be granted at least another 40-50 years of life, there won't be many people where I live who'll have much idea of what a 'Christian funeral' is. I'll have to hope that all my transatlantic cousins come over and sing for me, because there are so few people my age or younger who'll know any of the hymns I like. (Or maybe I should just go and live abroad - not just so I can have a 'good funeral' though!)
The idea of having a funeral where the presiding minister never knew me is also extremely unattractive. I've rarely seen this in practice; most funerals I attend involve people who are in some way connected to the church in question. But for the community at large, I think the problem stems from the fact that so few people talk about death, so they end up with a default option for their funeral.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
An elderly friend was slowed down by a heart attack in her 80s and knew she had few if any years left. In casual chit chat she mentioned she had planned her funeral including a poem she had written to be read at the funeral, and put the instructions in her safety deposit box at the bank.
I don't know who all she told, but when I found out on a Friday night a year later that her funeral was Saturday, it was too late to say "go to her safety deposit box." No poem was read. Or maybe they did retrieve her instructions and used some but not all of it.
I felt a sense of regret on her behalf, but writing this I see that in the planning she was making peace, or expressing peace, with her own death. That has value in itself. Truth is, once we are dead (and alas for many oldsters, in the last several years of this life) we have no control. We may plan what we want, but they will do what they want.
If you really are determined, who ya gonna give the paper to that will know of your death promptly and won't have lost the paper with your instructions, or won't have forgotten they ever received instructions from you!
I want the Hallelujah chorus, a friend wants the whole Brahms Requiem, neither of us is important enough for those dreams to happen. Will someone give me a funeral instead of just tossing the body in the ground? For those of us with no family, I doubt anyone will bother to do much organizing (and expense) of a real funeral. Good thing God doesn't let ceremony or lack of limit his welcoming love!
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
I recently attended the funeral of an agnostic friend, at which some members of his family were devout traditional christans.
It was taken in a well-designed crematorium by a female secular celebrant.
The service included both christian hymns and secular songs, as well as one or two of my friend's poems.
At the end of the service the family remained in the chapel, gathered round the coffin, while the rest of us filed out. A flower was taken off the coffin and given to the youngest child - not in any formal, ritual way.
From my discussion with the family afterwards, I gathered that the service and the celebrant were well received by christians and n0n-believers alike. It is certainly the most satisfactory funeral I have attended. It was honest and compassionate, and denied nobody's hopes with regard to the afterlife. I would consider it a considerable honour, when my time comes, to be despatched with equal grace.
[ 22. April 2012, 18:54: Message edited by: pimple ]
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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coniunx
Shipmate
# 15313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Nunc , Make a will and appoint an executor you can trust. Leave very specific instructions with the executor.
And it's best to take that as 'both/and'.
Whilst a Will is usually checked by the Executors before a funeral, I don't believe there is any requirement to do so - and an executor unaware of the fact that specific funeral arrangements are specified in a Will might not find them until too late.
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Coniunx
Posts: 250 | From: Nottingham | Registered: Nov 2009
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
If I am honest, the only thing I want regarding my funeral is that I am dead. Funerals are not for the person who has passed, but for those who are left.
This is a common position, but it is not a universal one. I am a high Anglican and very much believe that prayer for the dead -- and supremely the offering of a Requiem Mass -- is worthy and worthwhile. I see the offering of this Mass not only as the supreme way of acknowledging the Resurrection in the midst of grief but also as a very concrete thing that the bereaved can do on behalf of the one who has died.
Common Worship has a wonderful introduction to the funeral service (I'm not sure if it's shared with any other traditions):
quote:
We have come here today
to remember before God our brother/sister N;
to give thanks for his/her life;
to commend him/her to God our merciful redeemer and judge;
to commit his/her body to be buried/cremated,
and to comfort one another in our grief.
So the funeral, from my point of view (and I'm certainly not saying this is the only conceivable point of view) is for the bereaved and genuinely and really for the dead person as well.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Someone in our church family recently had to sit through a funeral, in another church, where the deceased's soon-to-be-ex-spouse delivered, via an incredibly common-sense-deficient lay assistant minister whom she handed her "eulogy," a rageful unloading of all her marital unhappiness that he dutifully read unedited. The woman's own family, as well as the pastor involved in the service and everyone else there, was shocked and mortified. (I'm honestly not sure what the lay minister's role was supposed to be here; our pastor never uses an assistant for funerals). Just another case of semi-DYI funerals that become hopelessly f*****d up by personal melodrama and lack of direction and that go in a direction that I'm sure the deceased would not have wanted them to go.
My pastor's response to this story: "In a funeral sermon, you talk about Jesus." Seriously. In a Christian church, this should be the focus of a funeral -- not a Dr. Phil feelings-fest, not an revisionist biography of the deceased in either direction, not a sales pitch for siding with the Christian team before you get called down to The Other Place.
I know that a lot of people enjoy/expect a lot of positive personal anecdotes about the deceased. But, seriously, this can create its own problems; imagine the victim of spousal or child abuse sitting at the funeral of his/her abuser and hearing that person hailed as the greatest human being ever. People are complicated, and simply focusing on (or making up) how swell they were isn't being honest, or even kind to some of the people attending the service.
I read about an interfaith organization that helped street people by, among other things, providing them with dignified funerals that gave their street friends and other aid workers an opportunity to grieve AND granted the deceased the dignity of simply being remembered as someone who lived on this earth; who had connections, however damaged or incomplete, to other human beings; who deserved this final act of recognition and compassion by virtue of being human. This is also an avenue any Christian pastor can take in a funeral sermon while still being very upfront about why we Christians have hope that this ending isn't the end of the story.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Thank you all for sharing your experiences, advice and opinions.
A friend was horrified at the very idea of a 'civil' funeral, having assumed a default Christian one without a specific opt-out. I think that people in the legal profession will be noticing an increase in enquiries this week.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
LutheranChik posts:
quote:
I read about an interfaith organization that helped street people by, among other things, providing them with dignified funerals that gave their street friends and other aid workers an opportunity to grieve AND granted the deceased the dignity of simply being remembered as someone who lived on this earth; who had connections, however damaged or incomplete, to other human beings; who deserved this final act of recognition and compassion by virtue of being human.
One of my fellow newly-retirees has just joined a small gang of RCs, taking his late father's place, a guild where they are (usually the only) mourners at the funerals of street people or those without survivors. Apparently it started shortly after WWII when someone learned of the Jewish practice of chevras, volunteers who wash the body and stay with it until the funeral, and thought that we should take a leaf from their book. I think that there were some mediaeval confraternities which did this, but have no specifics.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I double post only to semi-eat my words. Mediaeval and post-mediaeval RC Europe and the French, Portuguese and Spanish colonies were full of hundreds of these confraternities, which had the provision of funerals as one of their basic activities. Some of them got to be quite wealthy from benefactions over the years, and built hospitals. I knew of them from reading over the years, but didn't connect the dots when I was typing the previous message.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Although I was told of a case of post-mortem sheep-stealing involving a local elderly woman whose fundamentalist family disapproved of her non-fundamentalist church and female pastor, and when she was sick and unable to advocate on her own behalf her children banished the pastor and representatives of her church from the list of approved hospital visitors and made sure that her funeral was out of their church, not hers. I'm told that her own church family (who sound like the real family here anyway) were really heartbroken by all this, and had an ex officio memorial service for her at her church. I can see an aggressively non-theist family pulling the same stunt with family member who's a believer, which is all the more reason to get one's final wishes in writing in a legally binding form.
One of my parishioners died last November, and his passing led to the latter case, the (unchurched and uninterested) family claiming that he didn't want a funeral. In the event, I waited a few months and held a requiem mass for the deceased a few months later; we were able to do our duty by him and by his community without too aggressively thumbing our noses at his family.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Yerevan
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# 10383
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Posted
quote:
My pastor's response to this story: "In a funeral sermon, you talk about Jesus." Seriously. In a Christian church, this should be the focus of a funeral -- not a Dr. Phil feelings-fest, not an revisionist biography of the deceased in either direction, not a sales pitch for siding with the Christian team before you get called down to The Other Place.
Oh God yes. The Irish custom (which the Irish Catholic Church is now mercifully cracking down on) is to eulogise the deceased. I was at one particularly awful funeral where the priest euologised a particular great uncle for his upright Catholic life and contrasted it unfavourably with The Youth Of Today even though said great uncle was a) not actually that Catholic b) known in the family as a complete asshole.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Pine Marten
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# 11068
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Posted
I want a full Requiem*, bells, smells 'n' all, and have written notes to that effect which I am putting with my will. I have listed as much as possible, hymns etc that I would like, partly to save my family from having to make decisions when the time comes. My m-i-l died last year and we scrabbled about among her papers because somebody vaguely thought she had left a note about what hymns she wanted. I don't want family members to have to worry unnecessarily about things in my case.
One of the worst funerals I went to was some years ago - a very con evo occasion, with at least 5 (5!) long eulogies followed by a lengthy sermon which bashed RC and Orthodox belief, in a smug, supercilious 'of course they're not Christian!' sort of way. I would have walked out had it not been the funeral of someone I had known.
*actually, having seen The Vikings again on TV the other day I quite fancy being sent off in flames in a longboat, but possibly that wouldn't be very practical around these parts...
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
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Posted
Very interesting to read all the different ways that funerals have been dealt with. My sons know I'd like anything they arrange to be simple and if they feel they need a celebrant, then there is one I know well at the local Huanist group.
Quite a few of my contemporaries assume their families will organise a standard, simple CofE occasion, although most of them are non-church-going and have only a rather vague, nominal belief in God or an afterlife.
I attended the funeral of a dear, close friend (of 58 years standing) last month and she had organised everything. Maintaining a firm, straightforward faith all her life, she used to worry a bit about my soul, but the subject only came up on rare occasions, and I was the one whose company cheered her up and we always found something to have a little laugh about.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I do have to tell the story my pastor told a couple of weeks ago.
There was a elderly lady who knew she was about to die. She called in her pastor to tell him of a special request she wanted to make. The pastor heard her out and agreed to the request.
A few weeks later the woman died. When they had the funeral the casket had remained closed, but after the benediction the funeral director opened the casket so all could pay their last respects (not usually done in Lutheran funerals}. As the people filed by they noticed the woman was holding a fork.
Just before the committal the pastor paused and addressed the group. "Friends," he said, "Mildred had told me whenever she went to a church potluck she had always been told to save her fork. She knew when that happened dessert was next. She wanted to keep her fork with her as a way of telling you the best is yet to come."
Yes, the best is yet to come.
fyi:
Christian urban legend (scroll down for this particular version)
[ 23. April 2012, 13:57: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
Pine Marten writes:
quote:
actually, having seen The Vikings again on TV the other day I quite fancy being sent off in flames in a longboat, but possibly that wouldn't be very practical around these parts...
Some of us who have a cycling past are quite frustrated by local authorities who will not facilitate our velo-pyre plans. A bike & biker-bearing raft ablaze and floating down the Ottawa River over the Chaudière rapids is indeed an entrancing idea.
I have a document handy with hymns etc listed with a choice of Dowland or Tallis for the anthem, and all to be done acccording to St Percy-- dalmatic and tunicle for lesser ministers and birettas only for graduates of Spanish or Italian universities. My executors are instructed to facilitate my desire to go eulogy-less by informing the priest that they get a bottle of good single malt should he comply, and no Laphraoig 16-yr old if he doesn't. Choristers get a bottle of good Spanish red if of age, and a CD token if they don't. The organist reaps cognac. I believe in performance incentives. And ditto for a year's memorial. The executors have a $2,000 allowance for each bunfight but I may push that up.
I might not be in a position to attend the funeral myself, as the University of Ottawa medical school gets me (we have a family tradition of leaving our bodies for medical education-- I'll be the fourth generation to do so) but, should the circumstances of the afterlife permit, I'll be keeping an eye out to see if the counter-tenor is up to snuff.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Aravis
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# 13824
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Posted
I intend to request the final chorale from Bach's St John Passion. It isn't too difficult for a church choir and I don't mind if it's a recording.
I was a little startled when a very elderly lady came up to the organ one Sunday and asked the name of the tune I'd used for the second hymn, as she was just revising her funeral plans and wanted to specify the music.
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Zacchaeus
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# 14454
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Posted
Specifying what you want vs leaving it entirely to your descendants, is a tricky balance.
On one hand you may end up with a funeral which will make you turn in your grave, and on the other your family/friends may be left floundering about wondering what you would have wanted. One church acquaintance specified everything down to the nth degree, even choosing her coffin and paying for everything, without telling her family. She thought she was helping them, they were upset because they had wanted to do this one last thing for her and felt deprived.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
Can I ask perhaps insensitively why one would care? I can understand if there are people that I care about who would want funeral x, knowing it to be a representation of what I would have wanted. In that case specifying in advance gives them some protection.
Or if one knows that the bereaved will be grateful for the direction to save quarrels and uncertainty.
But on the other hand if my guess is that the people I'll leave behind mostly want funeral y, and the few that might want x would cope with it, then why not let them have y?
Perhaps there is an element of sending a message from beyond the grave - "this is who I am (was)" - that we feel is important to us. If that is the case we should think carefully about the message.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
I intend to request the final chorale from Bach's St John Passion. It isn't too difficult for a church choir and I don't mind if it's a recording.
Oddly enough, I had been contemplating exactly that. Odd, really, that I have never heard it used in that way. It seems so very appropriate.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Anyuta
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# 14692
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Posted
you know, it just never occurred to me to give this any thought! my family all around (as well as most of my closest friends) are all of the same faith, and therefore we all just sort of assume that the ceremony would be that prescribed by our Church.
But, I can certainly see where it could be an issue if one's family is NOT of the same faith. heck, this could even become the case for me in the future, as my kids move on to independent lives. I think they would assume that whatever their faith (or lack thereof) when I die it's MY faith that would determine the religious ceremony associated with my death.
I can see where someone might think that the ceremony is more about the bereaved than the departed, but that's not what I believe. I think that, sacramentally etc. it's about the deceased. it's about the loved ones left behind only in the sense that it provides some level of comfort. but it's not about THEIR faith (or lack of faith). and even more so for any guests invited to the event. I don't see how that could possibly be selfish! if I invite someone to a religious ceremony, then they should expect that it would be a religious ceremony... which may or may not be THEIR religion. if they would like to remember me in some other way, they are free to do so, but that would be a separate event. I can't even imagine, personally, being offended that someone's funeral didn't meet MY preferences.
As someone pointed out, of course, there is the obnoxious practice of using a funeral as a means of sheep-gathering. I have not personally ever encountered this, but I think that would be highly offensive regardless of the faith involved. just as using a wedding or any other such life event often attended by people from outside the faith of the "primary participant", whether it's baptism, wedding, or funeral... it's just not right (in my mind) to make it about getting others to convert. I think that any clergy member who would do such a thing is being extremely disrespectful, and frankly is more likely to be pushing more people away than drawing them in!!! I know that if that happened at a funeral I was attending, I'd be sure to steer clear of that religion from then on!
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
I have one request: If you're going to leave predeath instructions re: your service, make sure you think thru what precisely that's going to look like/require.
I still have nightmares about the "funeral from hell" I officiated at, which was hellish for a whole lotta reasons, but mostly due to the warring survivors divided into two openly hostile camps. The service was to be held in the large (800 seat) main sanctuary-- but sadly, less than a dozen people attended. Those, again, divided into two sides so sitting far apart from one another (so perhaps it was good it was such a large venue after all).
The deceased had requested two beloved hymns be sung. I introduced the first one, gave the hymn #, the organist provided the accompaniment... but the stone-faced mourners didn't even crack the hymnal. For the 2nd hymn I gave more specific instructions, thinking perhaps they're unchurched and don't know the drill. I told them which of the two books in front of them was the hymnal, told them how to find the hymn #, how to follow along, asked the organist to play it through once so they'd get the melody, and reminded them this hymn had been requested by the deceased.
Nothing. Which left me, a pitiful singer in the best of circumstances, singing a solo of...
In the Garden. A hymn only a professional opera singer should attempt.
The results... (shudders)
[ 23. April 2012, 22:40: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enigma
Enigma
# 16158
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Posted
Hearing all this I'm thinking of planning a funeral rehearsal so I can organise everyone. Oops - I won't be there for the final event!! I don't know who else will be there either so the cast is not fixed!!
I believe that funerals really are for those that are left behind. We can make our wishes known if there are any but, in the end, I am content to trust whoever is left to celebrate (or otherwise) my life however they feel will help them.
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Who knows? Only God!
Posts: 856 | From: Wales | Registered: Jan 2011
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
If there's to be Communion/Mass, most people can sort out on their own whether they want to receive or not.
My own experience working in a church is that for a well-attended funeral (e.g., one where lots of co-workers and extended family & friends attend), maybe about a third of the people will receive Communion, so those who don't certainly feel no pressure; they're in good company.
I've found (in the UK that is - I've no experience elsewhere), that less than 10% of those attending will take communion at a funeral. In one (very well attended) funeral at a very high anglican church, only 6 out of 400 communed.
For that reason, I'm very wary of including communion, as it can be seen as excluding the vast majority of people attending. ISTM that it can come over as a kind of insider type participation, and whilst I agree that non partakers are in good company and in the majority, they are still excluded from what is major part of the service. Yes there's the mystery and hope and ceremony and all that but i wonder what it really says to the average man/woman in the pew.
FWIW in my own funeral there's very little to cover that isn't written down. A couple of hymns, a gospel reading (the latter end of Romans 8 or the beginning of John 15), some thoughts on the love of God and hope of Christ. No mention of my life and "acheivements" - except perhaps to reveal the alter egos of ExclamationMark and *******?
Cremation and ashes to be scattered on the veg garden around the broad beans to keep off the chocolate spot fungus. Some use at last!
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
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Posted
As a (more-or-less) faithful churchgoer in a milieu of agnostic and atheist family, I long ago gave instructions to my powers of attorney as to what I would wish. I prepaid the funeral, selected the basic casket and all the little bits that attach to a funeral. I even selected the celebrant (pro temp). The one thing I have not done is selected music. Since it will be held in my parish church, I hope that they would use standard funerary music.
I hope I haven't forgotten anything, and hope that my family will have a real knees up after the funeral somewhere meaningful.
I have left enough money in my will for a representative to go scatter my ashes near my Indian home.
I also have a set of instructions on what to do if I die in India, and must formalise that before my next trip.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
I can see where someone might think that the ceremony is more about the bereaved than the departed, but that's not what I believe. I think that, sacramentally etc. it's about the deceased.
The outline of the liturgy is for the deceased, but there are choices of hymns, psalms, etc. which can comfort the bereaved.
My husband died of a freak accident while our daughters were still teenagers. While we waited in the hospital for his heart to stop, we chose psalms and hymns for his funeral. This was the last thing we could do for him.
One of our daughters chose the hymn "Joyful, Joyful We Adore Thee" because he liked it so much. I chose "I Walk the King's Highway" because it seemed to reflect the whole situation.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
I've been touched by many of the comments, thank you. I can see that the funeral is for both the departed and the bereaved.
If invited to a religious funeral we know what bias we're accepting, but consider obvious attemps at proselytism unacceptable.
If invited to a 'civil ceremony', not only do I consider obvious attemps at proselytism unacceptable, but unless it is made clear that the celebrant is coming from a particular angle I think that some attempt should be made to make whatever is said inclusive.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
I hope my funeral will be a small, very simple, inexpensive - I'd rather any unnecessary cost would go to the living - occasion at the crematorium, with a Humanist friend/celebrant there if my sons feel that would help, followed by a place arranged for anyone who might want to say a few words to each other about me with some food and drink available. I'd quite like, 'cock-eyed Optimist' to be played, but that might jar a bit!! ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Other vchoices of music (Poulenc's Stabat Mater and Gloria, or Rachmaninov Piano Concerto No 3 played by Luganski) are a bit long, so I'll leave it to my sons to have something if needed.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Ooops, sorry! I've already posted ... hmmm, perhaps it's time I shuffled off!!!!!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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