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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: We choose Depression?
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Ironically, one reason for the apparent increase in depression, may be the decline in religion. There is evidence that religious faith and practice protect against mental illness and suicide. Hence, a decline in the former, may well result in an increase in the latter.
Of course, no doubt it is much more complex than that, and there are so many confounding factors that are probably going on, for example, as others have mentioned, the breakdown in community life, the commodity culture induced by capitalism, and so on.
In addition, it is very difficult to ascertain if the increase in depression is real or not, or is a result of less people hiding it. Pull your socks up was often said in the 40s and 50s and even to the present day.
In addition, it strikes me that psychotherapy is a secularized form of confession and absolution; so that these erstwhile religious functions have migrated to another sphere.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
cliffdweller and Fool on Hill:
Sorry, I did misread the posts and get people confused but I do disagree with both of them. McFadyen is IMHO wrong about free will as sin doesn't bind man irrevocably (but then I have my own interpretation of free will) while Bowden is simply as crazy as a bag of rats.
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Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
It's interesting -- I used to feel somehow that depression must have a willed component, because the relatives I had who suffered from it were so annoyingly round-and-round-in-circles. But it was clear to me that it was also to a certain extent a heritage of the bad kind, just like cancer. Then of course, I, the eternal cheerful optimist high-performer experienced my first serious bout with it, which was very much like stepping into a Hall of Mirrors. Everything was different, fragmented, distorted, horrible, dark. It wasn't caused by any externality that I could identify, nor was it any sort of choice - who would choose it?
Anyway, this is the best explanation of how depression works that I've ever seen (complete with illustrations!) Adventures in Depression (Hyperbole and a Half)
Speaking of family heritage, this is the Preacher Family's dirty secret. I hope my new niece escapes our family's history of mental illness.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
I posit a continuum, as I said above, between sorrow and full-blown neurologically-based depression
Yes. Not only is it important to recognise that the severity of those symptoms can vary on a continuum between "not having a good day" and total debilitation, but also there can be different causes for similar symptoms.
Computers provide one model for thinking about mind/brain issues. There can be a tendency for the hardware engineers to see a hardware problem and prescribe a physical fix of drugs and software engineers to see a software problem and seek to correct the code by counselling.
Even with computers, sometimes what's needed is a software work-around for a hardware problem, and the mind/brain system is more complex.
I'd heard that depression can be a subconscious choice - withdrawal being the least painful way of coping with a situation - so it's not impossible to imagine that there could be cases where the same choice is made more or less consciously.
The other confounding factor with many things medical is this wonderful stuff called placebo which reportedly cures 30% of anything.
So yes life's complicated, but I think that means that the response to over-enthusiastic advocates of any particular approach is to say that such may work in a small number of cases, and try to characterise what those cases are, rather than dismissing (as some tend to do) the messenger out of hand as a total ****-up.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I would be very, very careful about any reported (and, of course) totally unverified "Christian" cures of, or for, depression hawked by the usual Spiritual Snake Oil Salespersons.
It's a bit like the gay cure in Dead Horses.
Full-blown, clinical depression may well be beyond the reach of such things. However, I have a fair amount of sympathy for such things as cognitive therapy, which is not so very far from many Christian approaches that some might call snake oil. Especially when we are transitioning from childhood to adulthood (at whatever age we get around to doing that), taking a serious look at how our overblown childish attitudes are making us unhappy and setting up unreasonable expectations about the world are very much on-target for getting us over ourselves. Or so ISTM.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on Hill:
I think the solution is the grace of God rather than human endeavour - McFadyen is pro Augustine on the whole, and anti Pelagius. It takes more than human will to conquer sin, and solutions which suggest that sinners can save themselves are theologically inadequate.
So how does he suggest the Grace of God works in this situation?
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Anyway, this is the best explanation of how depression works that I've ever seen (complete with illustrations!) Adventures in Depression (Hyperbole and a Half)
Do you agree with the ending?
Does depression lead you to say "fuck you all" and get on with your life?
quote:
And that's how my depression got so horrible that it actually broke through to the other side and became a sort of fear-proof exoskeleton.
This does not seem to me to be the end result of severe depression.
The other thing that bothers me about this cartoon is the implication that this person has absolutely nothing he/she has to do in order to earn a living to survive.
There is a reason suicide rates drop during wars.
[ 29. April 2012, 12:53: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
One of the problems with this sort of argument is that it missed out on a key distinction between "cure" and "help".
Talking therapies can be very useful in helping a depressive. Not least, in helping them to find coping strategies for some of the practical aspects of living with depression.
But coping strategies are not a cure. They can be confused with a cure, because the people who they work best with are better able to cope with the social situations they are in - that is, they appear to present less of the obvious problems.
At the same time, having a community of supportative people, like a church, can be very important for someone with all sorts of mental illness. It is not a cure, but it is a positive environment to be in. It can help, but is not a cure.
Incidentally, yesterdays 4thought was much better. Another Christian, who was all for the use of medication, but who believed that Jesus was also very important for her healing. I am sure he was, and introducing people to Jesus is always a good thing, especially if they are ill.
But the faith, the community, the support will provide the positive environment, allowing the meds to do their work, and the body to sort itself out.
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I would be very, very careful about any reported (and, of course) totally unverified "Christian" cures of, or for, depression hawked by the usual Spiritual Snake Oil Salespersons.
It's a bit like the gay cure in Dead Horses.
Full-blown, clinical depression may well be beyond the reach of such things. However, I have a fair amount of sympathy for such things as cognitive therapy, which is not so very far from many Christian approaches that some might call snake oil. Especially when we are transitioning from childhood to adulthood (at whatever age we get around to doing that), taking a serious look at how our overblown childish attitudes are making us unhappy and setting up unreasonable expectations about the world are very much on-target for getting us over ourselves. Or so ISTM.
--Tom Clune
Do you mean cognitive BEHAVIOUR therapy? If so, i agree. My church is running a day course about this with one of our members who is a therapist.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I usually click off the ship when I get up to do something because I don't consider if home safe, but I left it for a few minutes this morning and my (sometimes depressed) son, who had read the entire thread said, "That Oliva is brilliant." I had to agree. Great posts today, plus uncharacteristic smilie restraint.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Sighthound
Shipmate
# 15185
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Posted
I don't believe for one second that I chose to be clinically depressed, to lose approximately seven years out of my life during which I had little or no interest in all the things that have fascinated and delighted me for as long as I can remember. It was hell on earth. I am blessed with quite good powers of description, but words cannot adequately describe the misery of it.
I do believe that I would not have come through it alive but for my wife and Jesus. Those two were all that saved me from topping myself, ultimately through the power of love. If I'd not had them in my mind, I'd be dead.
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Posts: 168 | From: England | Registered: Sep 2009
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
I'd heard that depression can be a subconscious choice - withdrawal being the least painful way of coping with a situation - so it's not impossible to imagine that there could be cases where the same choice is made more or less consciously.
I've been described as 'morose' by people close to me in the past, (and possibly in the present).
I might even describe myself as such . However I've often thought that to name as 'depression', then to head for the nearest GP is as good as saying to myself --- " I've got it".
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
Well, yes, but I think that just shows that it isn't depression.
I don't believe that anybody who has experienced depression would entertain the idea of choosing it for even a moment.
It is a dark, black, horrible, hopeless cloud that descends on you. If you have experienced it before you might recognise its approach, and if you do you will fight for all you are worth, with every coping strategy that you have learned, to prevent it from arriving. You would never choose to accept it, and you certainly wouldn't be able to decide to reject it.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
Everyone at sometime in their lives feels unhappy. And while unhappy you can continue to live your life without recourse to drugs or therapy. I think those that think people with depression should just pull their socks up or are bringing it on themselves are confusing their experience of sadness with the reality of depression.
It can be confusing and hard to spot. Ive had depression for most of my life but only realised it a couple of years ago.
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
As someone who is committed to the belief that at least some depression has mainly a chemical cause, I'm fascinated by the question as to why it is so common today by contrast with the patterns of the past. I simply don't believe that there were the vast numbers of depressed people in society in the past that there were today - I think we need to ask some questions about why our society is so toxic that it causes 'depression' on its vast scale.
I had to write an essay about that as an undergrad. If I recall correctly, the set text was Britain on the Couch by Oliver James.
The main thing I remember from the book was a theory relating to negative social comparison. His argument was that society structure had an effect on seratonin levels in the brain; in particular, the fact that modern society leads people into comparing themselves negatively with others — given global media, high social mobility, and the attitude that hard work will attain a better quality of life, more and more people end up comparing themselves against success stories such as dot com millionaires and concluding "They must be working harder than me". Repeated thinking in this manner leads to persistent changes in brain chemical levels.
I'm going from memory of an essay I wrote 7 years ago, so I may have misremembered. But it's an interesting idea. Put a whole raft of opportunities within someone's (perceived) grasp, imply that anyone can attain them, and they'll blame themselves when they don't manage to achieve. Society with a class structure where the working class stay working class doesn't have that implication, since there's nothing in the media that leads a working class person to compare themselves to a middle class person.
I can't remember his citations for the specific mechanism that these comparisons influenced seratonin levels.
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
I don't believe that anybody who has experienced depression would entertain the idea of choosing it for even a moment.
It is a dark, black, horrible, hopeless cloud that descends on you. If you have experienced it before you might recognise its approach, and if you do you will fight for all you are worth, with every coping strategy that you have learned, to prevent it from arriving. You would never choose to accept it, and you certainly wouldn't be able to decide to reject it.
There's a certain pattern of false logic that can lead one to believe one is choosing depression. It goes something like: I know I am not getting out of my bed. But my legs work, so obviously I could get out of bed. Therefore I'm choosing to stay in bed. Since my staying in bed is a symptom of depression, I am choosing depression.
(I completely agree with your description btw. I'm describing a pattern of rationalisation, where pretending you have control over your physical actions leads to a false conclusion.)
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
If Bowden thinks it is ok to say that people choose depression, then I feel justified in saying that he chooses to be an ignorant '....'
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
Amorya - absolutely. It's a part of the vicious 'I'm useless' circle a depressed person often gets into. The one that Bowden is apparently keen to encourage.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
Well, yes, but I think that just shows that it isn't depression.
I don't believe that anybody who has experienced depression would entertain the idea of choosing it for even a moment.
It is a dark, black, horrible, hopeless cloud that descends on you. If you have experienced it before you might recognise its approach, and if you do you will fight for all you are worth, with every coping strategy that you have learned, to prevent it from arriving. You would never choose to accept it, and you certainly wouldn't be able to decide to reject it.
Your experience stated here seems to a common theme on this thread Drifting Star.
Thank you for sharing. It's not one I am familiar with.
I am curious tho.
How would those of you that descend under this darkness diagnose the illness?
What is it?
Is it spiritual? Is it socially connected? Is it purely chemical? Is it none of the above? Is it a mixture of them all?
OliviaG has posited some excellent points (IMO) and Twilight (and her son) has agreed but this seems to me to be a lesser form of depression than the total enveloping futility that many of you speak of.
For those of you that have experienced this: what do you think is going on?
Or is that too hard a question?
My experience of people with depression is that they are often very wise.
I guess I'm curious if you guys with severe depression have any ideas.
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Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's impossible to speak of a unitary phenomenon, depression, or something homogeneous. One must speak of a family of conditions, which go under that name.
For example, mourning can lead to a kind of depression, and can sometimes go on for a long time (described by Freud). One also finds depression around childbirth, around creativity, and other occasions in life.
But there is also depression connected with repressed anger, grief, or guilt.
That is why the psychotherapist or counsellor should not approach the depressed client with too many preconceived ideas, but one must be prepared to listen. Eventually, if you wait, the client will reveal the nature of their depression, so that the therapist does not (and should not) play guessing games, or attempt mind-reading.
I think therefore that it can be a slow process.
[ 30. April 2012, 13:07: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
@Evensong
Obviously it differs from person to person.
A feeling of complete hopelessness.
A physical pain like rats gnawing your stomach.
A wish to commit suicide because you cannot face living another day feeling the way you do.
Not being able to enjoy anything.
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Philip Purser Hallard
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Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
How can you justify discriminating against the mentally ill and blaming them for their own problems unless you claim that they made a choice to be miserable?
That's nothing compared to the group of lunatics in college that tried to exorcise my friend, a new member of that group, when he was depressed.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
[Cross-posted - replying to Evensong, with reference to George's post.]
The same sort of thing. Complete and utter hopelessness is the best description.
If you can imagine a spectrum of all possible feelings, ranging from the most positive and happy, through neutral, to the most unpleasant, negative feelings. Now remove everything that is better than neutral. Imagine reacting to things that would have previously made you happy with, at best, neutral feelings, and often with a sense of apparently unreasonable desperation.
I haven't had suicidal feelings, but I have experienced an overwhelming wish that I didn't exist because there was no point to anything.
I wouldn't say it was spiritual at all. I knew God was there and trusted him even though I couldn't seem to get hold of him.
Chemical? I don't know. I know it can be, but I have no idea how much of a role chemistry plays in general. For me there was a situational trigger, but I had dealt with far worse things in life before, and stuck with grief and misery - which are not depression. I suspect that, a little like a cold sore, once you have had it you are predisposed to get it again, and so an initial trigger may no longer be relevant.
BTW I am a natural optimist, and the sort of person who is more likely to be cheering others up. I am still that person when the depression lifts. And it does lift.
[ 30. April 2012, 13:57: Message edited by: Drifting Star ]
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Anyway, this is the best explanation of how depression works that I've ever seen (complete with illustrations!) Adventures in Depression (Hyperbole and a Half)
Do you agree with the ending?
Does depression lead you to say "fuck you all" and get on with your life?
quote:
And that's how my depression got so horrible that it actually broke through to the other side and became a sort of fear-proof exoskeleton.
This does not seem to me to be the end result of severe depression.
I love Allie of HAAH - I don't think she's saying this is true of all depression, just recounting what happened to her. I sometimes say 'fuck you' to depression, other times depression says it to me. And I don't read it as the end of severe depression - just a milestone on the journey.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
How would those of you that descend under this darkness diagnose the illness?
What is it?
Is it spiritual? Is it socially connected? Is it purely chemical? Is it none of the above? Is it a mixture of them all?
OliviaG has posited some excellent points (IMO) and Twilight (and her son) has agreed but this seems to me to be a lesser form of depression than the total enveloping futility that many of you speak of.
For those of you that have experienced this: what do you think is going on?
I've no idea what depression is, what causes it, but I know what it feels like and what living with it is like.
Sometimes it feels like the enveloping futilty - the state of mind where hiding in a cupboard in your own bedroom is the only thing you can cope with. Like Allie in the cartoon, I've had times where I couldn't walk, but only crawl across the floor. And other times when life is ok, and you're just battling the lesser depression. Thank God, that's most of the time - with the meds, I don't even have the lesser depression. I have to be careful, and things can set me off, but I'm ok.
Sometimes it's bad, most of the time it's ok.
What does it feel like? When it's really bad, it's like I'm not a human. I can't talk or write properly. I can't think to the end of a sentance. Tears come whenever they want. It's hard to move. I feel worthless, and like it's all my fault - everything is my fault. Sin. Mouldy bread. Dead birds.
When it's bearable, it's like living with a chronic illness. I get headaches easily. My sleep is often distracted. I have to be careful not to tire myself out, try to eat well, get some fresh air. If I do, then things continue ok. If I don't, I risk a slide back into the bad state.
Hope this helps to understand a little.
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
Having suffered from clinical depression in the past and been healed of it, I can assure this 'preacher' that he has no clue what he is on about.
The best thing he could do is stop preaching, sit down, shut up and talk to those he is condemning.
The brain can malfunction as easily as any other part of the body. It is wrong to assume that people choose depression.
As for the naive theology that submitting yourself to God will cure it, he is absolutely wrong here too. There have been thousands of Godly Christians who down through the ages have done all he suggests and more, yet still have suffered from depression. How many people in the gospels got healed because of their 'submission' to God ? They didn't - they turned up and Jesus healed them. It was a free gift with a bit of faith on their part. It had zero to do with moral performance. 'By his stripes' were the multitude healed.
This is exactly the sort of half baked stupidity that gives Christianity a bad name.
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Drifting Star's description of depression is about the best I've read here.
Depression doesn't necessarily equate to sadness. For me it can be as mild as a kind of physical and mental sluggishness that keeps me from starting or finishing anything...all I want to do is sit on the sofa. But that can work its way to a full-blown, tearful, existential despair where death starts seeming like a preferable option. (Thank God I haven't had a bout of the latter for the last few years.)
It's funny, but I can feel a cycle of depression coming on the way I suspect I'm catching a cold -- that ominous, not-quite-right feeling. Which is good, because then I can summon the self-talk and anti-depressive lifestyle activities that minimize the symptoms for me. (And I'll echo the thought that depression and its effective treatments are different for different people.) It also helps me to articulate to my partner that I feel as if I'm on the cusp of a depression -- partly to warn her, but also I think there's some power in "naming" aloud what's going on, instead of trying to soldier on silently. (She has PTSD, and will do the same if she feels either a depressive state or a panic coming on. I think both my parents were depressive personalities who dealt with it in different but equally ineffective ways, and I suspect that lack of awareness/ability to articulate what they were feeling and the social stigma during their lifetimes of seeking treatment for mental health issues were a part of that.)
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Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, that lack of awareness and inability to articulate in depressed parents is interesting, and I think it is possible that some people have to work through their parents' depression, which as it were, is inherited.
Of course, the old joke is that the best training to be a therapist is to have a depressed mother, although it is one of those wry jokes, which contains probably some truth.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Depression is a category of mood disorder, and is very good friends with anxiety. Thus depression might be being really down, but can also be somewhat down accompanied by being tense. I expect that the circumstances of life and genetics in a nasty conspiracy together may provide for how the mood gets expressed.
I obtained a copy of Burton's Anatomy of Melancholy (1621) about 10-12 years ago with the Latin bits all nicely translated. Struck with how we conceptualize mental and physical troubles, the influence of language and world view on how we view illness.
(edit - link fixed)
[ 30. April 2012, 17:00: Message edited by: no_prophet ]
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
When asked what would make me consider myself "cured" (or at least in remission), my response was that when I wake up in the morning, I'd like to be happy, or at least relieved! As opposed to feeling total and complete fear and horror at the prospect of another awful day of being me and thinking "Shit, I didn't die in my sleep." Like Drifting Star, I'm a really "up" person when I'm not depressed - funny, friendly, busy, effective, etc. (IMHO). When I'm depressed, I feel that I'm not even entitled to the oxygen I take from the atmosphere because I'm so worthless.
The way to tell *any* mental illness from the ups and downs of life, personality, and mood is simply whether it is interfering or preventing you from living life normally - taking care of yourself and family / pets; working (paid or unpaid); enjoying hobbies and activities; having a range of social contacts and relationships; paying bills; staying out of jail; sleeping, eating and exercising properly, etc. - on most days and /or for an extended period of time. OliviaG
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
One of the clearest signs for me about the biological/chemical contribution to depression is migraines.
About a 1/3 of migraine sufferers have depression after it. NOT during. After.
And I'm in that one third. I can live with it pretty well now, because it only lasts for about a day and it's so damn regular and predictable. But my brain will put me in a depressed state whether its convenient or not. The best strategy is for me simply to manage it and wait until the depression lifts.
I've also had longer term depression, and there's all sorts of interesting possibilities as to the links between migraine and depression given that both seem to involve serotonin levels going wacky. But it's very clear to me that there is a sequence of events going on inside my brain that, once a migraine has been triggered, run their own course and have nothing to do with my responses to the outside world or choosing the next step in the process. If I start having a migraine (thankfully something that seems to be happening a lot less), then I will almost certainly have a depressive episode in about 3 days time, regardlessly of how I might have been feeling emotionally when the migraine started.
(My migraine triggers/contributing factors include tiredness, stress and overexcitement - including extremely HAPPY overexcitement - but also such unemotional things as flickering lights.)
[ 01. May 2012, 03:20: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
I was somewhat amused (although, also, somewhat depressed!) by "Old Bathrobe"'s comment in the Grauniad :
quote:
I see that Bowden presents no evidence. He simply pontificates as if he's unable to comprehend the difference between the way things are and the way he thinks they should be
and by Carusian:
quote:
Christianity can certainly cause depression though, especially in less secular areas. In LGBT teens, for example.
Is it any wonder that the general population has a negative attitude about Christians?
[ 02. May 2012, 23:05: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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rhflan
Shipmate
# 17092
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
Well, yes, but I think that just shows that it isn't depression.
I don't believe that anybody who has experienced depression would entertain the idea of choosing it for even a moment.
It is a dark, black, horrible, hopeless cloud that descends on you. If you have experienced it before you might recognise its approach, and if you do you will fight for all you are worth, with every coping strategy that you have learned, to prevent it from arriving. You would never choose to accept it, and you certainly wouldn't be able to decide to reject it.
Your experience stated here seems to a common theme on this thread Drifting Star.
Thank you for sharing. It's not one I am familiar with.
I am curious tho.
How would those of you that descend under this darkness diagnose the illness?
What is it?
Is it spiritual? Is it socially connected? Is it purely chemical? Is it none of the above? Is it a mixture of them all?
OliviaG has posited some excellent points (IMO) and Twilight (and her son) has agreed but this seems to me to be a lesser form of depression than the total enveloping futility that many of you speak of.
For those of you that have experienced this: what do you think is going on?
Or is that too hard a question?
My experience of people with depression is that they are often very wise.
I guess I'm curious if you guys with severe depression have any ideas.
Best I can tell (from personal experience suffering with mental illness and studying psychology at uni) I think that mental illness is a complicated thing. I don't think that any *one* thing causes it. I tend to lean towards a diathesis-stress model for why some people experience mental illness.
diathesis-stress model
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www.twitter.com/rhflan
Posts: 135 | Registered: May 2012
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
I was somewhat amused (although, also, somewhat depressed!) by "Old Bathrobe"'s comment in the Grauniad :
quote:
I see that Bowden presents no evidence. He simply pontificates as if he's unable to comprehend the difference between the way things are and the way he thinks they should be
and by Carusian:
quote:
Christianity can certainly cause depression though, especially in less secular areas. In LGBT teens, for example.
Is it any wonder that the general population has a negative attitude about Christians?
Maybe the problem here is that Bowden is starting with a God exists and is good premise and is then building conclusions that seem to follow logically on from there.
For example. I've seen a lot of debates where the theist argues that the truth of God is written on everyone's hearts. Deep down everyone knows the good news. People who end up in hell don't go there through ignorance but through rebellion. Therefore atheists are lying when they say they don't believe in God.
(It's amusing watching how the Atheist tackles this. How do you debate someone who assumes you are lying?)
I can understand where this comes from.
- God is good and completly just.
- Therefore everyone in hell deserves to be there.
- Some people die never hearing about God or claiming they see no evidence for God.
- But God is just therefore everyone must know god exists.
Maybe Bowden believes in original sin and his reasoning is something like this.
- God is good and just.
- Therefore all sickness and evil must come from sin and the fall.
- Therefore depression must be caused by sin.
Maybe for him to think otherwise would dent his faith in God in some way?
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
- God is good and just.
- Therefore all sickness and evil must come from sin and the fall.
- Therefore depression must be caused by sin.
Maybe for him to think otherwise would dent his faith in God in some way?
Okay, George Spigot, I'll bite.
I thought your syllogism was bog-standard, orthodox Christianity. Where else would sickness and evil come from?
Please read my posts on the first page of this thread to see that I'm not carrying a brief for Bowden and his asshattery.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
- God is good and just.
- Therefore all sickness and evil must come from sin and the fall.
- Therefore depression must be caused by sin.
Maybe for him to think otherwise would dent his faith in God in some way?
Okay, George Spigot, I'll bite.
I thought your syllogism was bog-standard, orthodox Christianity. Where else would sickness and evil come from?
Please read my posts on the first page of this thread to see that I'm not carrying a brief for Bowden and his asshattery.
Well through debates on the net and in real life I've learned that a lot of christians these days don't believe in the fall causing the worlds woes. I've been told by some that god want's us to have free will. In order for free will to exist there must be choice and the consequence of choice....um
Actualy I'm struggling here as these are not my arguments. Can anyone else explain the reason for suffering if not the fall? Or is The Silent Acolyte right in saying that my syllogism was bog-standard, orthodox Christianity.
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Clergy Grandaughter
Apprentice
# 15928
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Posted
First off, can I admit that while I have scanned through all the posts above, I may have missed some points so apologies if I'm being repetitive!
Secondly, I would want to whole heartedly distance myself from Michael Bowden! With those two points clear, for what it's worth here are the thoughts that occurred to me whilst looking at the thread.
Firstly, as was discussed to a degree at the start of the post, I agree that there is an enormous difference between clinical depression and people who feel a bit down. The latter can (admittedly with great willpower) pull themselves out of it with positive thought, religiously inspired or not, where as the former cannot. What I would add to this though is that in my work in the community I have observed what I believe to be a serious over-diagnosing of depression in some communities and/or groups. This occurs most often from what I've seen where someone is quite rightly feeling awful given their circumstances - perhaps living in an abusive relationship or on a very low income in our consumerist society. I understand the driver that makes GPs want to be able to help, and since they don't have a magic wand that can change an abusive partner or increase an income, the urge to prescribe a pill that will help someone feel a little better must be strong. Of course, the real solution to this kind of "depression" lies not with the individual, but with society - it is only when we all make abuse unacceptable or share the country's wealth more fairly that this kind of depression will go. I therefore feel that Christianity can be part of the answer to this kind of low mood, but not when the sufferer becomes a Christian; more when those of us who are start putting our faith into action and when those who are powerful in society find and implement the teachings of Jesus.
In addition to this,not withstanding the fact that I also disagreed with everything else he seemed to be saying, I felt that MB was making a mistake that I used to make - namely confusing stress and depression. His description of people imposing unrealistic expectations and suffering from pride being part of depression seemed to me to be more about stress. Depression and stress can be seen as opposite ends of a spectrum, (worthlessness at one end and expectations of perfection at the other) the healthy point on which is in the middle. These ideas are stolen from Fr Gerald O'Mahony SJ, and I recommend his book "Finding the Still Point" to anyone who feels they're lurching from one side of the spectrum to the other. This is not to suggest for a moment that this would be sufficient to solve clinical depression, which clearly needs expert medical intervention.
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And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same - Nelson Mandela
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
- God is good and just.
- Therefore all sickness and evil must come from sin and the fall.
- Therefore depression must be caused by sin.
Maybe for him to think otherwise would dent his faith in God in some way?
Okay, George Spigot, I'll bite.
I thought your syllogism was bog-standard, orthodox Christianity. Where else would sickness and evil come from?
Please read my posts on the first page of this thread to see that I'm not carrying a brief for Bowden and his asshattery.
Well through debates on the net and in real life I've learned that a lot of christians these days don't believe in the fall causing the worlds woes. I've been told by some that god want's us to have free will. In order for free will to exist there must be choice and the consequence of choice....um
Actualy I'm struggling here as these are not my arguments. Can anyone else explain the reason for suffering if not the fall? Or is The Silent Acolyte right in saying that my syllogism was bog-standard, orthodox Christianity.
The logic falls down because 'sin' as in a general state of being fallen is not the same as 'sin' as in a particular example of doing the wrong thing.
I know people who carefully distinguish between being a sinner, and sinning, precisely to avoid equating the two in this way.
The idea that depression is caused by the fall might be theologically okay - I'm not entirely sure, but for these purposes I don't need to be. Because that is completely different from pointing to an individual person and saying 'YOUR depression is caused by YOUR sin'.
In fact, it's completely against Jesus' own teaching to say the latter. There is an instance of people asking Jesus about a man born blind, "who sinned? Him, or his parents?". And Jesus replies that neither is correct.
[ 04. May 2012, 01:37: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
But his reply is even worse than those two options. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
I thought your syllogism was bog-standard, orthodox Christianity. Where else would sickness and evil come from?
The devil of course.
Or at least, that's Martin Luther's take on depression.
By the by, he has some good tips on treating depression IMO.
Which type (on the spectrum) is up for discussion.
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Can anyone else explain the reason for suffering if not the fall? Or is The Silent Acolyte right in saying that my syllogism was bog-standard, orthodox Christianity.
The reason for suffering is not clear in bog-standard orthodox Christianity.
The fall explains suffering only insofar as we as humans do not live in an ideal state or ideal world.
We chose to remove ourselves from that (the Garden of Eden) because we wanted to be more like God.
We wanted to have free will ( the knowledge of Good and Evil).
Tho really, we had free will to start with.
Otherwise we would never have been able to choose to know Good and Evil.
So the fall doesn't really explain suffering.
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
A good point Evensong. The fall doesn't explain suffering, nor does anything else in the Bible. The best we have is the wisdom book of Job, which doesn't give us an answer but tells us that the questions we ask today are much the same as those that have been asked since the beginning.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The logic falls down because 'sin' as in a general state of being fallen is not the same as 'sin' as in a particular example of doing the wrong thing.
Well that's not right. It's you who are confusing and equating the consequences of particular, chosen sin with the consequences of the corporate fall. quote:
The idea that depression is caused by the fall might be theologically okay....
Glad to hear that. quote:
[T]hat is completely different from pointing to an individual person and saying 'YOUR depression is caused by YOUR sin'.
Only Ass Hats say this. You are erecting a straw man.
Evensong's incoherent post is a lazy anthology of slogans groping for an answer. Blaming the Devil just pushes the problem onto an hypostasis of evil; but, there is no such thing.
So we are back to sin being a separation from God. It is this separation that gives rise to evil and its consequences.
I reiterate my allusion to the liturgy in my post on the first page: quote:
When we pray that the Lord will have mercy on us and forgive us our transgressions, those that are both voluntary and involuntary, those that are of word and of deed, and those that are done in knowledge and in ignorance and, nevertheless, to make us worthy to receive him, we acknowledge that it is only sin, corporate and personal, that separates us from him. We need to repent and accept God's approach to us as best we can.
The liturgy never, ever properly speaks in the first person singular. It is always first person plural. We sin. It is our sin that puts us into the predicament: Our sin, our fathers' and mothers' sins, our descendants' sins. The sins known and unknown, voluntary and involuntary.
Plus, at one end of the continuum, some depression is neuro-chemical and wants medical treatment for the neuro-chemical imbalance that it is.
At the other end, some depression is evidence of a disordered soul (the I'm slothful and despondent, suffering from accidie sort) and wants a cure of the soul.
Some depression is a mix of the two, though calling it a one-dimension continuum over simplifies things.
As evidenced upthread, folk have hijacked the word depression to mean exclusively and expressly a neuro-chemical imbalance. That deracinates the word, which has a much richer fund of meaning.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Evensong's incoherent post is a lazy anthology of slogans groping for an answer. Blaming the Devil just pushes the problem onto an hypostasis of evil; but, there is no such thing.
So we are back to sin being a separation from God. It is this separation that gives rise to evil and its consequences.
Ohbutohbutohbut orthodox Christianity teaches that we are no longer separated from God. We are reconciled to God in Christ.
Therefore there is no more suffering!
Thank you Jesus!
It's all so clear. It all make so much sense. My suffering is obviously not real. I should become a buddhist.
Thank you Silent Acolyte.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
Unless people have been theough depression they cannot understand how black and empty an experience it can be. it is certainly not an illness of choice any more than epilepsy or leprosy are. It always amazes me how self educated experts purport to know how to cure people from serious illnesses, never considering that their 'cure' might actually exacerbate the condition. I experienced a priest instructing me to stop taking depression medication and to pray more. When I foolishly took his advice, my health deteriorated at a rapid pace and I had to be hospitalised. Thankfully these days I am well due in no small part to medication and skilled medical care and counselling.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Only Ass Hats say this. You are erecting a straw man.
Ahem. There is a Hell thread about this, running alongside the Purgatory one, precisely BECAUSE we think the person who prompted this thread IS an Ass Hat.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo: quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
[T]hat is completely different from pointing to an individual person and saying 'YOUR depression is caused by YOUR sin'
Only Ass Hats say this. You are erecting a straw man.
Ahem. There is a Hell thread about this, running alongside the Purgatory one, precisely BECAUSE we think the person who prompted this thread IS an Ass Hat.
Right. But, nobody on this thread is making that simplistic assertion, so it's beside the point.
The meat of the matter is whether there is something other that sin that separates us from God.
Evensong, please take a harder look eschatology. And, on the profit one gets by working the idea of reconciliation next to theosis during these end times.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo: quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
[T]hat is completely different from pointing to an individual person and saying 'YOUR depression is caused by YOUR sin'
Only Ass Hats say this. You are erecting a straw man.
Ahem. There is a Hell thread about this, running alongside the Purgatory one, precisely BECAUSE we think the person who prompted this thread IS an Ass Hat.
Right. But, nobody on this thread is making that simplistic assertion, so it's beside the point.
The meat of the matter is whether there is something other that sin that separates us from God.
Evensong, please take a harder look eschatology. And, on the profit one gets by working the idea of reconciliation next to theosis during these end times.
Sorry, but did you actually READ THE POST I WAS RESPONDING TO?
It was a post from George Spigot, that was BASED on the guy in the opening post. IT USED HIS NAME. Bowden.
Frankly I have no idea why you came in telling me off, except for some weird idea that I was addressing something you'd said. I wasn't. I was answering a question that was explicitly in the context of the person who generated this thread to begin with. It had absolutely nothing to do with whatever projection you had inserted based on your own contributions to the topic.
[ 08. May 2012, 12:48: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
And yes, I know, you had given your own response and referred to your contributions on the first page. But that was not the question. When George was referring to 'these are not my arguments', he was referring to what he posted first in the chain. Not to your views. Okay?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Just a side issue really, but there certainly is the notion of unconscious choice (not subconscious), in the analytical therapies. Thus, one could argue that someone might unconsciously choose depression as a way of life, but since it is unconscious, one cannot really remonstrate with the individual about it. One might hope to make the unconscious conscious, so that they can operate in a different way. But this is not a question of will power.
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Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Evensong, please take a harder look eschatology. And, on the profit one gets by working the idea of reconciliation next to theosis during these end times.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
You want to shift sin and suffering to Judgement Day?
And you think I'm obfuscating about the devil huh?
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Well through debates on the net and in real life I've learned that a lot of christians these days don't believe in the fall causing the worlds woes. I've been told by some that god want's us to have free will. In order for free will to exist there must be choice and the consequence of choice....um
Actualy I'm struggling here as these are not my arguments. Can anyone else explain the reason for suffering if not the fall? Or is The Silent Acolyte right in saying that my syllogism was bog-standard, orthodox Christianity.
orfeo, it seems you don't want to discuss this with me and that's okay. The antecedent to these arguments seemed to me to be about the relation between free will, the fall, and evil in the world. George Spigot references, what he calls, my syllogism.
The drum that I'm beating on this thread is that everything was hunky dory before the fall and that everything in the world after the fall that is neither hunky nor dory is due entirely to sin. Not necessarily all due to personal sin or to sin that I voluntarily choose, but due to sin nonetheless.
And, that Michael Bowden is an Ass Hat.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
^ Which is exactly the same position that I expressed as being open and sensible, in contrast to labelling it as all caused by personal sin. Which is precisely why it's a total mystery that you felt the need to come along and "correct" me.
[ 11. May 2012, 23:54: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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