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Michael Bowden claims that depression and many other mental illnesses are "very deliberately decided" by the person suffering from them and that the former is a "behavioural problem, rooted in pride, self-centredness, and self-pity". The proposed solution? To submit ourselves to the Christian God in total humility, and to find peace with this deity through living our lives for others.

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Originally posted by beatmenace:
Is there a factory manufacturing these guys??

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Yes. It is called sex. I recommend it.

Though the manufacturers usually cannot control the nature of use of the subsequent product, life. In this case, one could posit misuse.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Originally posted by Pine Marten:
Isn't there a similar Hell thread about this?

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Originally posted by romanlion:
I don't know about choosing depression, but I definitely feel that we choose an attitude and choose how to respond to various different situations and circumstances.

I believe that the single most important factor in the quality of my day is the outlook I choose when I wake up.

I know that many people suffer clinical depression about which they have no choice, but I also must think that there is a segment of the "depressed" population that choose it in one sense or another.

Some people are ill, some people are just whiners, in other words.

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Originally posted by romanlion:
I don't know about choosing depression, but I definitely feel that we choose an attitude and choose how to respond to various different situations and circumstances.

I believe that the single most important factor in the quality of my day is the outlook I choose when I wake up.

I know that many people suffer clinical depression about which they have no choice, but I also must think that there is a segment of the "depressed" population that choose it in one sense or another.

Some people are ill, some people are just whiners, in other words.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
This is a common view in New Age circles, that somehow we choose emotional states, and even physical illness. I remember being harangued by someone, who claimed that I had chosen to get flu.

But all of this is pure assertion and anecdote.

Is there actually any peer-reviewed research in some psychological field, which demonstrates it? Then I would sit up, and pay attention to this idea.

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Within the anatomical networks implicated in emotional processing by other types of evidence, these BF and metabolic data demonstrate that major depression is associated with reversible, mood state–dependent, neurophysiological abnormalities in some structures and irreversible, trait-like abnormalities in other structures.

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Originally posted by beatmenace:
Hard on the heels of the 'Ex-Gay Bus Ad' saga here is another Evangelical this time deciding that Depression is our own fault.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/apr/26/god-cure-depression-malcolm-bowden

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Michael Bowden claims that depression and many other mental illnesses are "very deliberately decided" by the person suffering from them and that the former is a "behavioural problem, rooted in pride, self-centredness, and self-pity". The proposed solution? To submit ourselves to the Christian God in total humility, and to find peace with this deity through living our lives for others.

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Is there a factory manufacturing these guys??

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Originally posted by romanlion:
I don't know about choosing depression, but I definitely feel that we choose an attitude and choose how to respond to various different situations and circumstances.

I believe that the single most important factor in the quality of my day is the outlook I choose when I wake up.

I know that many people suffer clinical depression about which they have no choice, but I also must think that there is a segment of the "depressed" population that choose it in one sense or another.

Some people are ill, some people are just whiners, in other words.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Michael Astley

That's a good point. Despair was, and still is, a mortal sin, presumably because it represents a giving up of hope that God will help you.

However, to intertwine this with 'counselling' is rather alarming, I would say, and represents a kind of philosophical confusion. If I go to see a psychotherapist or counsellor, I don't expect to be coached in theology really.

It's even more interesting, if we think that counselling and therapy are in some ways secularized versions of confession and absolution, so I suppose very few people expect or want that to be desecularized all over again.

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Originally posted by Michael Astley:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Michael Astley

That's a good point. Despair was, and still is, a mortal sin, presumably because it represents a giving up of hope that God will help you.

However, to intertwine this with 'counselling' is rather alarming, I would say, and represents a kind of philosophical confusion. If I go to see a psychotherapist or counsellor, I don't expect to be coached in theology really.

It's even more interesting, if we think that counselling and therapy are in some ways secularized versions of confession and absolution, so I suppose very few people expect or want that to be desecularized all over again.

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Indeed.

So the questions seem to surround whether despair and depression are the same thing or to what extent they overlap and feed each other in certain instances. Counsellors who are also Christians often have a particular understanding of this. I know two such, one of whom is my godson. It may be a conversation worth having with him.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
That article is behind a dollar wall.

I still don't see how that suggests that depression is chosen.

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Originally posted by romanlion:
... I believe that the single most important factor in the quality of my day is the outlook I choose when I wake up. ...

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Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
... But I don't think that the depression for which I am being medicated would be improved by the presence of that kind of Christian.

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If there's an element of repressed anger in the depression and the Christian is handy ... OliviaG

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Originally posted by ken:
He's got his sins wrong. The traditional one for depression wasn't pride, it was sloth.

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I consider that depression and many other mental illnesses are very deliberately decided by that person.

My name is Malcolm Bowden [and I'm an asshat of epic proportion and], I’m a committed evangelical Christian, and have been giving true Biblical counselling to many people with mental health problems. And from my experience, I believe that depression is a behavioural problem, rooted in pride, self-centredness, and self-pity.

True Christians, if they accept the Bible as being the Word of God, they will read in there many encouragements to live the full outgoing and loving Christian life. And a Christian, a TRUE Christian, should not ever be depressed, because he should be living his life for others, and he should have that peace of heart with God, when he knows that God has promised him a wonderful future in heaven with him.

Many depressed people turn in on themselves and feel that people are against them, the world’s not going right, they don’t appreciate how hard they’re working, they’re terribly proud of their situation, and try to be perfect in order to impress people, and people aren’t ultimately impressed, and when they suddenly deflate themselves, they fall right back into a pit of depression.

Man is basically so proud and so self-centred, he refuses to come to God in total humility. But that is ultimately what God is seeking from all of us, and we reject His requirements at our peril.

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Originally posted by Michael Astley:
There is patristic basis for depression as both choice and conscious sin. As somebody who has struggled with depression and lost a mother to it, I have difficulty with this sort of expression. I don't know whether the word commonly translated as depression is what we today understand as clinical depression or whether it was something else, or indeed whether it is the same but understandings have developed, or indeed whether the bald statement is accurate as it stands and it's just a difficult pill to swallow. The point is that this is nothing new and has been part of Christian tradition for a good many centuries.

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Originally posted by romanlion:
I don't know about choosing depression, but I definitely feel that we choose an attitude and choose how to respond to various different situations and circumstances.

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:

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Originally posted by Michael Astley:
There is patristic basis for depression as both choice and conscious sin. As somebody who has struggled with depression and lost a mother to it, I have difficulty with this sort of expression. I don't know whether the word commonly translated as depression is what we today understand as clinical depression or whether it was something else, or indeed whether it is the same but understandings have developed, or indeed whether the bald statement is accurate as it stands and it's just a difficult pill to swallow. The point is that this is nothing new and has been part of Christian tradition for a good many centuries.

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Perhaps the patristic authors were just plain wrong.

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Originally posted by no_prophet:

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Originally posted by beatmenace:
Is there a factory manufacturing these guys??

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Yes. It is called sex. I recommend it.

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Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
It is clear that what some people thought was a free choice is actually innate

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Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:

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Originally posted by Michael Astley:
There is patristic basis for depression as both choice and conscious sin.

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Perhaps the patristic authors were just plain wrong.

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Ah, yes. Sin and choice. I'm thinking that they were not "just plain wrong," but rather cannily characterizing things pretty well, but without the insight of our recently gained science.

When we pray that the Lord will have mercy on us and forgive us our transgressions, those that are both voluntary and involuntary, those that are of word and of deed, and those that are done in knowledge and in ignorance and, nevertheless, to make us worthy to receive him, we acknowledge that it is only sin, corporate and personal, that separates us from him. We need to repent and accept God's approach to us as best we can.

On the spectrum of mental affect from simple sorrow to full-blown clinical depression, we are responsible to redress what we can, however large and however small.

Folk don't willing choose depression. And, to say so, as this asshat, Michael Bowden, has, is a gross offense against charity.

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
"Folk don't willing choose depression" or the patristic authors were "cannily characterizing things pretty well"? With or without "the insight of our recently gained science", "folk don't willing choose depression" doesn't seem compatible with "depression as both choice and conscious sin."

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Originally posted by Alogon:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
"Folk don't willing choose depression" or the patristic authors were "cannily characterizing things pretty well"? With or without "the insight of our recently gained science", "folk don't willing choose depression" doesn't seem compatible with "depression as both choice and conscious sin."

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Please don't assume that ancient people were ignorant idiots. For instance, because books had to be hand-produced and were very rare and expensive, they developed their memories much better. I wouldn't doubt, as well, that because they had no mind-altering drugs as powerful as Prozac etc., they retained practical insights into the psychological causes of mental illness that we have lost. These could be incorporated into the wisdom of pastoral theology with preventative do's and don'ts which might characterize going down harmful paths as "sin," even though most of us don't understand the connection.

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Alogon, I'm not assuming that ancient people were ignorant idiots.

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Originally posted by Alogon:
... I wouldn't doubt, as well, that because they had no mind-altering drugs as powerful as Prozac etc., they retained practical insights into the psychological causes of mental illness that we have lost. ...

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Alogon, I'm not assuming that ancient people were ignorant idiots.

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Unless perhaps your middle paragraph about asking forgiveness for our involuntary transgressions is meant to include depression as one of those involuntary transgressions?

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And a Christian, a TRUE Christian, should not ever be depressed, because he should be living his life for others, and he should have that peace of heart with God, when he knows that God has promised him a wonderful future in heaven with him.

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Originally posted by George Spigot:
His response to my e-mail.


Dear Matt,
Your criticism is only one of over 100 that were made on the broadcast.
In view of this I am attaching my response.
Please reply if you wish.
Best wishes,
Malcolm Bowden.

4THOUGHT - CHANNEL 4 - WEDNESDAY 25 APRIL 2012 - 7.55PM - DEPRESSION.
MY COMMENTS ON CRITICISMS RECEIVED.

I was interviewed by channel 4 on 15 March 2012 on depression. The whole filming took over 45minutes but was edited down to 1min 45 secs!
I was fully prepared for the editing to present only the most negative points I made, which in a way was so, but I would say that overall it was a fair presentation of my views as I am well aware that they are greatly resented by most people who have never heard my reasons for holding these views. It is impossible for anyone to present their views AND then give the evidence of why they hold them in the allowed time of 1m 45s! I hope to correct by presenting some of this evidence in this article.

1. WEBSITE. I was not allowed to give any publicity to my website or book which contain much that has changed many people's lives.
In view of this, I would ask critics to visit my website where I have a number of letters/emails received from people I have helped particularly with their depression. The direct link to the page is -
www.mbowden.info/bibcoun1.htm. At the start are two articles - comments, and how I stumbled upon True Biblical Counselling.

2. CHRISTIAN SUPPORT. To see the whole series, go to www.4thought.tv When I looked there late on Wednesday evening, there were some 90+ vitriolic comments on the transmission, plus further comments on these comments which I did not count. Total about 150 I would guess. Only one was fairly sympathetic. A number said they were Christians and were disgusted that I should call myself a "committed evangelical Christian", thus bringing disrepute upon our faith. I am certainly made to appear as the only Christian who holds to such extreme views.
So on this subject let me give a few quotations.
Would a few quotes from the great Dr. Martin-Lloyd Jones on depression persuade many evangelical Christians? Not to those whose mind is made up already! Remember he was a MEDICAL doctor nearing the highest levels in the medical world, which he gave up for the ministry. These are taken from his "Spiritual Depression" and I copy what I have said on my website.
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"Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones on depression
When I started to read his book "Spritual Depression", as he was a highly regarded medical man, I fully expected him to take the conventional line of drugs etc. Much to my surprise, his views were in exact accordance with ours! I quote some of his statements;
"..I say that this person is still morbidly and sinfully preoccupied with self. I said just now that we have to be brutal with this condition. [emphasis MB] And it has to be said that the real trouble with these people is still 'self'... They appear very humble and full of contrition, but it is mock modesty, it is a self-concern... Forget yourself, leave the judgement to Him; get on with the work." [p.87]
"In a sense, the depressed Christian is a contradiction in terms, and he is a very poor recommendation for the gospel." [p.11] "..and saying: I am in great difficulty - it probably means that we are all the time centred upon ourselves. That is introspection, and in turn it leads to the condition known as morbidity." [p17].
One very damning comment was "Psychology, I believe, is one of the most subtle dangers in connection with the Christian belief.... we do not preach psychology, we preach the Christian faith." [p.265]
Throughout the book, he says exactly the same that we are proposing - that it is self-centred and self-pitying thinking that is the cause of depression.
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The Apostle Paul went through terrible hardships but not once was he ever depressed. Indeed he said Christians should "Rejoice; again I say rejoice" and "Think more of others than yourself". Not once did he ever succumb to depression but claimed that the Christian faith was "..joy unspeakable and full of glory."
Jay Adams found he had not been trained to deal with counselling in his theological college, so he investigated the subject in depth, writing some 40 books and pamphlets on counselling. He followed O. Hobart Mowrer as he went round psychiatric hospitals curing schizophrenics simply by breaking past their defence strategies to get to the guilt that they had been hiding deep inside them. They acted in a bizarre and aggressive way simply to prevent people from enquiring too deeply and discovering their guilty secrets. Adams wrote much on depression. He pointed to their self-absorbtion, but did not pinpoint that basically they were acting self-centredly.

3. SECULAR SUPPORT.
The Pheonix Conference. Held in 1975, this huge conference had all the big names in psychotherapy. "Three out of the four members of the prestigious panel on schizophrenia declared that the disease [?] was non-existant." R.D. Laing insisted that schizophrenia "did not exist until the word was invented.""
Such views from such prestigious names has never reached the mainstream psychiatric/psychological professions - their income is too closely connected to maintaining this facade.
Thomas Szas, a member of the schizophrenia panel, has written a book called The Myth of Mental Illness.
On this subject of the classification of what constitutes a "mental illness", the now huge Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) lists all the various mental illnesses. Inclusion of an "illness" requires only a show of hands by a gathering of psychiatrists of the symptoms of the illness. If a person has a certain number of the symptoms on the list, then they are classified as having that particular "mental illness". THERE IS NOT A SCRAP OF SCIENTIFIC BASIS TO THE WHOLE OF THE PSY PROFESSIONS - (psychiatrists and psychologists).

Glasser, Harrington and Mainord
Glasser, in his book Reality Therapy, recounts how these three psychologists had huge success rates (80-100% cures with very few relapsing) with criminal girls, schizophrenics and men in a general psychiatric hospital simply by training them to take responsibility for their actions. So you see schizophrenia CAN be cured, but their method is not acceptable in today's "politically correct" culture. I quote from this book at length in our book Breakdowns are good for you [BAGFY].

4. CASES OF DEPRESSION
I have examined a number of cases - people who have come for help, or simply read our book, or have written (or been written about) in magazine articles. Given enough "background" information of their past life, I have found every time that they have had a pattern in their attitude to life of wanting praise, admiration, ambition, friendship etc. without really giving themselves to others in simple love towards them without seeking any return. They were consistently wanting praise but they never really "gave of themselves". If they DID do "good works", there was always an underlying desire to "buy" people's affection, which was often seen for what it was - so they never received a truly affectionate response to the depth that they were wanting. People are very sensitive to anyone who does NOT "give themselves" in open friendship; the signals that they send you on such occassions are extremely subtle and difficutl to define, but they are easily sensed by most people. When they find that they do not get the full response that they are seeking, we have the beginning of that inward collapse that heralds depression.
What they should do is GIVE of themselves in a quiet loving way and not expecting (seeking?) any responding return of affection. That will come when they are recognised as being truly "open hearted and genuine" people with a REAL interest in the welfare of other people, with no facades or barriers they hide behind.
In this short paper I feel I must be blunt. Life is full of problems, calamities and catastrophies that come upon us all. What many have done is to mentally collapse at the first hurdle of opposition, and frankly, what has really happened is that they have failed to face up to them in a mature way - they have never grown up to take the rough and tumble of the world in a mature (Christian?) way.

5. PERSONAL EXPERIENCE
The most common accusation by my critics is that "I have obviously never experienced depression otherwise I would be more sympathetic to this terrible illness". The implication is that only sufferers from depression should counsel other sufferers; a dubious proposition indeed. What is invariably offered is what I call "tea and sympathy" and "a shoulder to cry on". They go away happy, and both counsellor and counsellee are both satisfied. Unfortunately, this rarely cures their problem at depth, and they are likely to return to their former state when stress and pressure arise again. as it is bound to come in time.
What is badly needed is for the real cause of their problem to be revealed to them - gently but firmly. For their testimony of what happens to them when they DO respond to this approach I repeat that the reader should go to www.mbowden.info/bibcoun1.htm
Many admit that they are now more stable, at peace with themselves, no longer perfectionists to prevent criticisms, not so ambitious etc. Some in fact say they are glad they went through depression because it taught them what the real priorities in life are.
On this, I would mention that at one time in my life, when I was far from being mature and long before I became a Christian, I went through an extremely stressfull and testing three months. When it was over, I was lying in my bed and all the pent up fear and anxiety that I had supressed suddenly bubbled to the surface and I began to be so stressed that the room began to "swim" around me and I realised that I was on the point of having a "mental breakdown." I have a very clear memory of saying to myself "You have only one life to live. Either you face up to life and overcome your fears or you will buckle under and be a mental wreck for the rest of your life." This started me on the right path although I struggled with it for many years, but I was very determined to enjoy my life.
On another occasion, I gave my first public lecture against evolution with no other person's support. The night before I gave the lecture I was so fearful that I literally shook with fear in my bed. However, I was so determined to publicise the truth about the falseness of evolution that I forced myself to give the talk. The result was that I have never had any fear of public speaking since. It is this determination NOT to be limited by my inadequacies that has paid a huge dividend over the years of increased confidence and joy in serving God in any way He makes available to me. I have truly had a very stressfree and happy life.
Critics portray me as a hard-hearted man who cannot possibly be a Christian. In response, I can assure them that I am greatly loved by all 15 of my immediate family - (ask them if you know one of them!). In addition, every Christmas I circulate about 120 copies of 4 sides of A4 jokes that I have collected in the previous year. Recipients always look forward to receiving them. [See them at www.mbowden.info/Xmasjokes.htm ]
I merely mention this to show that I am far from being a kill-joy. It is the truth of a situation that I am always seeking, not the conventional propaganda that is consistently being pumped out by the mass media and by many churches that is absorbed by the general public. It is this that puts me at variance with the vast majority of people who accept the conventional wisdom.

FINALLY - I fully expected a huge amount of criticism - some of it from other Christians. I would repeat that many have been grateful for the way in which I have opened their eyes to what they are doing to themselves. Jay Adams has said "It is NOT kind to empathise with people without pointing out the real root of their problem".
I find that the truth of any situation is always rejected if it conflicts with a person's deeply held views that they have cherished for a lifetime. The process of admitting to oneself that you have been wrong on any important subject is too stressful and humiliating to the inner pride. So such evidence is firmly rejected without being prepared to consider carefully whether it is true or false.
Unfortunately, this also applies to many Christians when faced with contrary views.
I could present much more but will leave it there.

Malcolm Bowden.

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