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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: (Plymouth) Brethren
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
What do shipmates know about this bunch?
When I was at grammer school in the 60s and Devon, the noncons I was most aware of went to a place called the "Gospel Hall" (since renamed X Chapel). I have since learnt these were (Plymouth) Brethren.
There was the son of corn importer and the son of a leading solicitor, and a nice gentle man who taught Latin and taught me Religious Knowledge for O level, which was the only one I failed. I didn't notice any evangelical leanings in his teachings - I wouldn't have been aware of evangelical subtleties in theology, but I would have noticed any evangelical smarm or triteness in his manner.
[ 12. May 2012, 12:04: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I must admit that most of my awareness of Plymouth Brethren has been second hand - through what friends have experienced.
I did know some Plymouth Brethren once - very strict on issues of women's clothing and hair cover. I also had a friend (living in Plymouth!) who befriended a Plymouth Brethren woman. Although my friend was herself a committed Christian, attending a Pentecostal church, the PB woman was told by her elders that either she ceased fraternising with the "unbeliever" or else she would be thrown out of the church.
As I understand it, Plymouth Brethren are more hardline than your average common-or-garden Brethren.
I also had a friend who taught at a Brethren school in Yorkshire. He wasn't Brethren himself, but was permitted to work at the school because he could teach Law - a subject that the curriculum demanded but which no self-respecting Brethren would teach (apparently). The headteacher of the school refused to use any form of technology and so employed someone else to write his emails for him. I still don't get how that works. I can understand taking a stance against modern technology, but not the line that "I think it is of the Devil but it's OK for me to pay YOU to sup with Satan"
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
They are the only Christian denomination we Irish can claim to have founded. Given how busy the English have been founding denominations its nice that we get to claim at least one.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
I grew up in a family that belonged to the local (Open) Brethren 'Assembly' that met at the Gospel Hall. It was where I was baptised, at the age of 15.
Yes they are evangelical in theology (Arminian), but do things their according too their own traditions, and the stereotypical stance is anti ecumenical (especially anti Catholic), anti clerical, anti charismatic. They meet in plain buildings and do not have paid clergy. Knowledge of the Scriptures is impressive. Only men can participate in the audible worship. Women need to wear head coverings.
They are involved in missionary work both at home and abroad. They are sincere people who love the Lord, and just quietly get on with doing things as they believe they should be done according to their interpretation of Scripture.
My time among these people gave me a secure grounding in the Christian faith, a good Bible knowledge, albeit a rather skewed understanding of some issues, that had to be unlearned, or at least I had to realise that other views were equally possible! (eg their views on eschatology)
Is that the sort of thing you wanted to know?
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Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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OhSimone
Shipmate
# 16414
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
I grew up in a family that belonged to the local (Open) Brethren 'Assembly' that met at the Gospel Hall. It was where I was baptised, at the age of 15.
Yes they are evangelical in theology (Arminian), but do things their according too their own traditions, and the stereotypical stance is anti ecumenical (especially anti Catholic), anti clerical, anti charismatic. They meet in plain buildings and do not have paid clergy. Knowledge of the Scriptures is impressive. Only men can participate in the audible worship. Women need to wear head coverings.
They are involved in missionary work both at home and abroad. They are sincere people who love the Lord, and just quietly get on with doing things as they believe they should be done according to their interpretation of Scripture.
My time among these people gave me a secure grounding in the Christian faith, a good Bible knowledge, albeit a rather skewed understanding of some issues, that had to be unlearned, or at least I had to realise that other views were equally possible! (eg their views on eschatology)
Is that the sort of thing you wanted to know?
I'll be first to put my head above the parapet. The first key addition I'd make to this is that there is a spectrum of Brethrenism, generally falling into either 'open' or 'exclusive', as Gracious Rebel indicated. Plymouth Brethren, as far as I can tell, could refer to any or all of them - the name stems from the first Brethren churches (assemblies) in England, which, as mentioned, were an offshoot from the original movement in Dublin. I gather that across the pond the term is more common to describe any sort of Brethren assembly - over here, it'd usually indicate exclusiveness.
By that, I might mean: refusal to worship with/eat with/receive other Christians from other denominations; strict legalism over attire, places of worship, leadership etc. Open brethren tend to be more embracing in principle, although sometimes an outsider might be hardpressed to tell the difference...
Each assembly is completely congregational and autonomous: there's no heirarchies or Moderators or national councils or anything, hence the spectrum of adherence to traditionally Brethren principles. The only leadership is a small group of elders in each assembly. That means that, for instance, Kaplan Corday's church is a Brethren assembly, but would look and feel quite different to my own church.
In terms of theology, Brethren are usually in the YEC/pre-millenial rapture camp, stemming from a fairly literal approach to Biblical interpretation (one of our own pretty much invented modern dispensationalism, although you won't find quite so much of this as you would in, say, Harold Camping's circles...). I'd stress that point about Brethren being very scripturally-literate though, that's a key point.
This has been my tradition from a youth so I'm happy to answer anything specific, but I'll warn you that I take a fairly critical/undecided view of a lot of Brethren practice (including eschatology, YEC, gender roles), so any views are my own and do not represent yadda yadda yadda.
Posts: 198 | From: The Black Country | Registered: May 2011
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
My family used to belong to the Raven/Taylor/Hales "exclusive" Brethren. I have been looking into this, and it seems it was very much a top down ecclesiology. Whatever the "Holy man" at the top said was on par with the Bible, be it John Darby, Taylor Sr, Taylor Jr, Hales or whoever.
Nowadays, the gates and doors are locked during services and all the windows of the hall are bricked up. I can't think how you would get to become a member, even if you wanted to.
They have their own schools, businesses and everything else, and anyone who wants to join is interrogated before he even gets a foot in the door. It is equally difficult to leave if you were born into the movement, and if you try you will be ostracised even by your own family. I pity anyone who is thrown out through discipline or disobedience!
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
The word 'Brethren' is attached to THREE different groups.
The first - largely irrelevant in the UK context, but confusing in the US, is the European Hussites. Some emigrated and flourished in the US.
The second is the highly hierarchical in practice 'Exclusive' brethren whose horrors include strict discipline about contact with non-believers, which was justified originally because the UK was a Christian country in name - they were seeking to witness against the complacent assumption that 'everyone was a Christian'. They also do a cute line in arguing that since Satan is 'the prince of the air', everything electronic that passes through the air is under his control; they therefore reject TV and radio, but allowed telephones. We used to have an assembly close to us that has now been replaced by a block of flats. Following a court case that established that places of worship had to make their facilities visible, they had a board outside declaring who they were, carefully constructed to be hidden behind a hedge...
The third group is the 'Open Brethren', which are a WIDE spectrum of churches whose history goes back to the same roots, but have resisted the hierarchical nature of the 'Exclusives'. A striking feature of their services is that they are not led by anyone; instead people are expected to contribute their own material. Note that this is similar to the Quakers - except that they don't value silence as such - and put a far higher emphasis on the bible for teaching! They also explicitly reject the need for a specific person to do the communion prayers; any man present is allowed to initiate the sharing of the elements, certainly without any particular liturgy. As such they separate the role of elder from celebrant, to the despair of our Catholic brethren(!)
Within the spectrum are some who won't let you near the elements unless you dot all the 'i's and cross all the 't's, through to many which are indistinguishable from Evangelical churches of other origins. often introducing structured services and paid leadership. As with any denomination - and this is as loose a denomination as you will get - it has its good and bad points and examples.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
In an attempt to escape confusion with the Exclusives, who are constantly in the media for all the wrong reasons, the Open Brethren assemblies in Australia have recently rebranded themselves as Community Churches of Australia.
My own assembly holds a traditional Brethren Breaking of Bread service early on Sunday morning, which is attended by only 20-30 mainly older people.
The family service later in the morning is indistinguishable from its generic counterparts practised these days across many denominations and many countries (in the Anglosphere, anyway).
I suspect that a majority of our members would know little or nothing about Brethren history or Brethren distinctives.
[ 11. May 2012, 09:17: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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OhSimone
Shipmate
# 16414
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
In an attempt to escape confusion with the Exclusives, who are constantly in the media for all the wrong reasons, the Open Brethren assemblies in Australia have recently rebranded themselves as Community Churches of Australia.
This is interesting (and seems like a pretty good idea to me). Is there any sort of formal union or umbrella organisation, or was it more a collective decision?
Posts: 198 | From: The Black Country | Registered: May 2011
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
You may find this Wikipedia page useful. This page is pretty accurate re the Exclusives.
Mrs B's parents are Exclusives. They both grew up in the Raven-Taylor branch but left it in 1970 over the 'Aberdeen incident' involving Big Jim Taylor and his alleged literal interpretation of the 'laying on of hands'. They are now in what I call the 'Raven-Taylor-hard Frost' branch which presently consists of about three and a half people and a dog. They have a computer (which the strict Exclusives - Raven-Taylor-Symington-Hales - are not allowed) but no TV because that's 'worldly', don't go to any other Christian meetings or denominations (we had an interesting wedding where we had a civil marriage in a hotel and then once the registrar left, had a time of open prayer and blessing involving prayers by Mrs B's dad, plus my two uncles who are Catholic priests, but men only).
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
"Spectrum" is a good phrase. The local nonco congo I belong to (and have done for 38 years) was founded by Open Brethren about 75 years ago. So far as I can work out, one of the motives was to enable the sending assembly to export some rebellious young turks with new ideas.
Seems to have had interesting effects. As it stands now, the congo has a paid church leader (ex Salvation Army), two other paid staff, women elders, no restrictions on women's roles, nobody wears hats, a very strong social gospel agenda, led worship (worship band, most songs written after 1990), good relationships with local churches and an excellent reputation with local government for its work in the socially deprived area in which it is based.
When asked for the denomination of my local church, I tend to describe it as "ruined Brethren".
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Snippets about the NZ 'Exclusives':
A friend some years ago had a daughter who married an Exclusive. For some years she had no idea where her daughter lived, what children she had etc. Then a new Head Honcho came along and the daughter was contacted (I think someone had to track her down though) and friend could visit, staying nearby, be given a cuppa but without Daughter partaking at the same time. At another time we heard that when a new HH came on the stage who likes whisky, it became allowable for the faithful to drink whisky.
In more recent years there hve been a number of Exclusives in our part of the city as the have a huge windowless 'church' and rumour had it that they had to be near a church to be able to assemble there quickly when the final trumpet sounded. So the children went to local schools and posed a problem for teachers who had to prepare alternative work for them if they wanted to use a video in class. They now have their own school. But I have met or have known some very pleasant friendly members – a colleague when I was teaching would stand in the staff workroom door with her coffee(?) and chat to those of us near her in the common room.
The Open Brethren I have known have been quite happy to join with the rest of us, or welcome us to their meeting, and I remember them mainly for the humanitarian work they were involved in.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
We have a Brethren chapel ('Gospel Hall') round the corner, although I don't know where they sit on the Brethren spectrum, and they do the odd leaflet drop and distribute leaflets in the street sometimes. I'm always struck by their slightly formal courtesy; they are never patronising, never pressurising. I like and respect that.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
I married into a group in Sydney which on the spectrum was more towards the Londoner (Exclusive) end than Open. It was a split from a larger meeting in Sydney which broke up in 1930s. However, Londoners deny the eternal Sonship of Christ and are thus Arian. Our group had fairly usual view of the Trinity.
Patriarchal in organisation although the women were allowed to teach Sunday School to the smaller children. Our group ran three separate Sunday Schools as a community outreach. My sons went to two of those as well as the breaking of bread on Sunday morning and the gospel meeting on Sunday night. Hats were required for women in meetings and many wore them for family devotions as well. Weddings were conducted by civil registrars at the time and a separate meeting was held just before or after.
Only the KJV or Derby's translation were really approved of and I'm sure my then RSV brought disapproval. Having grown up in the Anglican church, I found the dispensational views very difficult to understand. After 40 years I could parrot the theology but never really believed it.
I refused to be rebaptised as I said I had been baptised once, even though that was as baby. I finally was allowed to join, despite my views here and others later who believed in paedo- baptism came out from under cover and spoke up. The group's accepting of both types was extremely unusual.
Even after 40 years, there were times I still felt an outsider. I think that was because of the group mindset. As individuals, they welcomed me and I have happy memories of picnics, readings, meals etc. I also appreciated their scriptural emphasis and knowledge even though I sometimes disputed their exegesis and hermeneutics.
My (ex) husband became extremely pentecostal in 1988 and we withdrew from the group. Several approached us and told us we "were going to Satan."
After being dragged around several pentecostal places, I have returned to my Anglican roots and now attend an Anglo-Catholic church in inner city Sydney which is inclusive and warm and welcoming. I 'm warmly treated by several family members who are still there, even though they are not blood family but relations of my husband. He has made himself persona non grata with his comments about them.
[ 11. May 2012, 10:21: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
They now have their own school. But I have met or have known some very pleasant friendly members – a colleague when I was teaching would stand in the staff workroom door with her coffee(?) and chat to those of us near her in the common room.
We have an elderly retired dentist in our assembly who used to be in the Exclusives.
In his day he was apparently pretty hot stuff, dentally speaking, and at one point in his career he gave some lectures to colleagues.
This raised the problem of what to do in the refreshments break, because he couldn't fellowship with unbelievers, so it was decreed that he could partake of a cup of tea with them as long as he remained standing, and did not put his feet under the same table with them.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
We have a Brethren chapel ('Gospel Hall') round the corner, although I don't know where they sit on the Brethren spectrum, and they do the odd leaflet drop and distribute leaflets in the street sometimes. I'm always struck by their slightly formal courtesy; they are never patronising, never pressurising. I like and respect that.
Have you looked at their noticeboard?
For instance, does it even mention the "Breaking of Bread" service or does it only refer to the "Gospel Service"? Does it declare that the meetings will take place "(D.V.)" on the "Lord's Day"? Are the texts displayed outside all in the Authorised Version?
These are clear guides as to how high up they are on whatever passes for the Brethren candle.
(By the way - talking of candles - it is interesting to note that one of the roots of Brethrenism was the Albury Conferences of the 1840s which certainly pushed for Premillenialism and a Restoration of the NT Church, and which was also instrumental in the founding of the high-church Charismatic "Catholic Apostolics". I do realise, of course, that both movements had other roots as well).
[ 11. May 2012, 10:24: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
We have an elderly retired dentist in our assembly who used to be in the Exclusives.
In his day he was apparently pretty hot stuff, dentally speaking, and at one point in his career he gave some lectures to colleagues.
This raised the problem of what to do in the refreshments break, because he couldn't fellowship with unbelievers, so it was decreed that he could partake of a cup of tea with them as long as he remained standing, and did not put his feet under the same table with them.
This reminds me of Watchman Nee's "Little Flock" church in, I think, Shanghai, which was strongly influenced by the "Exclusives". They had one gifted lady preacher who was visiting; all the men wanted to hear her but that was not allowed as they would then be "under her authority".
So they rigged up a curtain across the meeting room, the ladies all sat in front of it and the gentlemen sat behind, keeping very quiet!
If only they'd had an extension speaker or a video link to another room ...
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I've only had dealings with the Open Brethren and they were a sincere bunch and virtually indistinguishable from other conservative evangelical groups I encountered at that time (early 80s) other than a stronger emphasis on pre-millenialism and so on than was the 'norm' elsewhere.
I didn't stick around very long but learned a lot about the scriptures from them.
Their Bible knowledge was indeed impressive, but it often had a very woodenly literal slant to it.
They were lovely but seemed at a bit of a loss how to handle students and young-people who had rather more questions and didn't want to be treated like a grown-up Sunday school. They weren't particularly wierd on dress or anything like that.
There were a lot of ex-Brethren personnel in the 'restorationist' house-churches of the 1970s and 80s and their influence on evangelicalism as a whole was disproportionate to their size. They had some respected Bible teachers and scholars such as F F Bruce, one of the few conservative Bible scholars respected outside of conservative circles.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I've had dealings with a Gospel Hall church through church concerts. The people I've met there just seem like slightly old-fashioned (i.e. mostly elderly) evangelicals. This is an inner city, multicultural congregation. To judge from what they sing at the concerts, they've developed a taste for modern worship music, but I suspect that they still sing some older hymns at church.
My assumption is that the Gospel Hall people, whose churches are dotted around my city, must be more open to the outside world (i.e. to other Christians, to technology) than some of the other types. Plus, in a big city it must be very hard to withdraw from contact with others. The ones who live like that are surely condemned to stay in smallish towns in distant suburbs.
I know of two authors with Plymouth Brethren Backgrounds - Ken Follett and Mez Packer. It's a shame they haven't written about that experience!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
We have a Brethren chapel ('Gospel Hall') round the corner, although I don't know where they sit on the Brethren spectrum, and they do the odd leaflet drop and distribute leaflets in the street sometimes. I'm always struck by their slightly formal courtesy; they are never patronising, never pressurising. I like and respect that.
Have you looked at their noticeboard?
For instance, does it even mention the "Breaking of Bread" service or does it only refer to the "Gospel Service"? Does it declare that the meetings will take place "(D.V.)" on the "Lord's Day"? Are the texts displayed outside all in the Authorised Version?
These are clear guides as to how high up they are on whatever passes for the Brethren candle.
....
Breaking of Bread, yes; poster with AV text on it, yes; can't remember about 'Lord's Day' but I think not, and no 'D.V.'
So where would that place them?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I've had dealings with a Gospel Hall church through church concerts. The people I've met there just seem like slightly old-fashioned (i.e. mostly elderly) evangelicals. This is an inner city, multicultural congregation. To judge from what they sing at the concerts, they've developed a taste for modern worship music, but I suspect that they still sing some older hymns at church.
My assumption is that the Gospel Hall people, whose churches are dotted around my city, must be more open to the outside world (i.e. to other Christians, to technology) than some of the other types. Plus, in a big city it must be very hard to withdraw from contact with others. The ones who live like that are surely condemned to stay in smallish towns in distant suburbs.
I know of two authors with Plymouth Brethren Backgrounds - Ken Follett and Mez Packer. It's a shame they haven't written about that experience!
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I've a lot of time for the Open Brethren. I've met some impressive people from that background. The quality of their fellowship, family life and care for one another can put the rest of us to shame.
The Exclusives are odd. There is an assembly in this city that looks like a warehouse. I think the case Ender's Shadow refers to isn't about it being illegal to worship in private. It isn't. I think it is that you don't get exemption from have to pay rates unless the building is open for public worship. So the notice will be very discouraging.
Their women wear headscarves not just in services (I assume) but in the street. It has been alleged that they take separation, and 'come you out from among them for they are unclean' so seriously that they separate their household sewers from other peoples'. I don't know if that is true.
I've also heard that they don't approve of ties. I don't know why. But it will be some reason on a par with rejecting radio and television but not telephone because the waves go through the air rather than along wires. Though I'd have thought that even in the wires, their speech is mixing with that of the godless.
The descendants from Hussites in the UK are the Moravians. They are not like that at all. There aren't many of them, though, because when people were converted through them in the C18, they told them to stick with their own churches unless they actually joined a Moravian settlement.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Breaking of Bread, yes; poster with AV text on it, yes; can't remember about 'Lord's Day' but I think not, and no 'D.V.'
So where would that place them?
Fairly traditional "Open Brethren" I would have thought. The "Exclusives" wouldn't even mention the "Breaking of Bread" - that's strictly for insiders!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Edmund Gosse wrote well-known memoir called Father and Son. It tells of a motherless boy growing up with a very devout father who was a leader in the Plymouth Brethren in the nineteenth century.
Judging by what has been posted here, it seems that many Brethren congregations haven't changed much since then.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Patricia Beer wrote a memoir of her childhood in the Brethren in my home town, Mrs Beer's House.
What surprises me is that in my childhood they didn't tie in with that narrow image. The gentle RK teacher had his name on the Gospel Hall as a Sunday preacher. I attended children's tea parties at the homes of two Brethren families (which ended up with us being give fliers for Crusaders).
They clearly can't have been Exclusive if I was offered chocolate cake and jelly at their homes.
[ 11. May 2012, 12:17: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Posting mix-up earlier. What I meant to say, Svitlana, is that Garrison Keillor is from a Brethren background, and has written about it, humorously- e.g. see the chapter 'Protestant' in Lake Wobegon Days.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
No, but even the Exclusives weren't that bad until the 1960s under the leadership of James Taylor Jnr, when pets were banned and then later when you had to live in a detached house with exclusive drainage etc
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
Actually I think its more straightforward than that - I've never seen a place that calls itself a Gospel Hall being anything other than Open Brethren. Its pretty much what this group call their buildings, by default.
Here is the one I grew up in, still looks much the same as it did back in the 70's when I left for Uni.
ETA Crossposted - I was replying to Baptist Trainfan
[ 11. May 2012, 12:25: Message edited by: Gracious rebel ]
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venbede
Shipmate
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Posted
On this literary thing - was the background of Jeanette Winterson's Oranges are not the only fruit Brethren or something else?
(The reviews at the time of its publishing gave the impression it was a great cry for lesbian liberation from a repressive religious background. I got the impression Winterson admired the bloody mindedness of her chapel.)
Edit: Given the matriarchal nature of the group in Oranges, perhaps not. Sorry for the distraction.
[ 11. May 2012, 12:30: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
No, that was a Pentecostal Church (Elim, I think - but I'm not sure). Not Brethren, for sure. More detail in her latest book, which is more autobiographical than "Oranges".
[ 11. May 2012, 12:42: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Thanks for all the refs to memoirs, and autobiographical writing!
Venbede, I understand that Jeanette Winterson's family were Pentecostals of some kind rather than Brethren.
It's interesting that all this material is either biography, or heavily biographical. Modern authors don't seem to explore this territory in purely fictional form. (Winterson's Oranges , which I haven't yet read, is often classed as fiction, but it's clearly highly autobiographical.)
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Mary LA
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In her recent memoir, Why Be Happy When You Could Be Normal? Jeanette Winterson speaks of her mother's chapel as Charismatic Pentecostal.
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It's interesting that all this material is either biography, or heavily biographical. Modern authors don't seem to explore this territory in purely fictional form.
Well, there are Frankie Schaeffer's books (admittedly heavily based on his own experiences); and Barbara Kingsolver's "Poisonwood Bible", perhaps.
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sabine
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. . .or it might have been a Chruch of the Brethren member in Canada who founded Heifer.
S.
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It's interesting that all this material is either biography, or heavily biographical. Modern authors don't seem to explore this territory in purely fictional form.
Well, there are Frankie Schaeffer's books (admittedly heavily based on his own experiences); and Barbara Kingsolver's "Poisonwood Bible", perhaps.
I was thinking particularly of Briitsh authors, though. American ones get loads of mileage out of evangelical themes, so it appears!
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BroJames
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The church I was part of years ago used to have a church camp on a site owned by a farmer who was a member of a Brethren Assembly. They were lovely, godly, welcoming people. Probably not Exclusive, I guess.
My youth leader from those days recalled tales of his uncle getting into trouble for buying a car with red wheels, and also I remember him as the source of a comment that the advertising slogan for television ("Brings the world into your living room") could hardly have been better calculated to put off possible Brethren purchasers.
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
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I know that there are other "exclusive" brethren groups outside of the Raven/Taylor/Hales group.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Matt Black
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Yeah, there's Glanton and Tunbridge Wells for starters although I think those groups (which date from splits in the late 19th and early 20th centuries) have re-merged recently.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Somebody I once knew slightly had been brought up 'Glanton', and even as an insider, didn't know how they were different from other sorts of brethren.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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venbede
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# 16669
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I dug out Garrison Kelier's Lake Wobegon Days and read the chapter "Protestant" this afternoon. Thanks for flagging it up.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Saul the Apostle
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# 13808
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I was a Liverpool Brethren and went to an ''open'' assembly, which has now developed into a thriving general evangelical church.
We had 'breaking of bread' on Sunday morning, with open prayer and sharing (by men only). Then there was the 6.30 p.m. gospel service.
Very sincere, very strict on avoiding ''worldly'' pleasures and pretty good at children and youth work, with a strong missionary ethos. No alcohol, smoking or swearing and trips to the theatre etc were too ''worldly'' !
Due to the J.N. Derby background usually very pre millennial and strongly pro Israel. The King James Version was preferred.
Many aspect of British evangelicalism was influenced by the (open) Brethren. They were the storm troops to an extent of British Protestantism, in many respects.
Saul
PS there were a fair sprinkling of Brethren Assembly buildings across Liverpool and it was a small but influential sect of Christianity.
[ 11. May 2012, 20:23: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]
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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673
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I spent over a year in an Open Brethren assembly in Malta whilst doing my National Service. They were wonderful people, perhaps more open because they had to accommodate different denominational allegiances (there wasn’t much else in Malta in those days if you weren’t RC).
The assembly included, of course, senior military people as well as us young sprogs. They looked after us so well, taking us home for some good food, driving us to the beaches and so on. I owe them so much. I remain in annual touch with one member.
On the other hand, I had to prove myself as a ‘true’ Christian before I was allowed to participate at the Breaking of Bread or to say a word during the service (sometimes it was quite Quaker-ish in style). And it was obvious to all that there were strict guidelines about living!
For me, the time with them was a good grounding for subsequent Bible College and Christian ministry.
The group’s ‘leader’ was a Mr Ego – a patriarchal type and lovely man.
They must be turning in their graves now as I have rejected it all.
The building in Malta is still used by non-conformists – evangelical Baptists I think.
Today, in UK, Open Brethren increasingly appoint pastors and they are paying them , too. As someone said, the New Churches of the 70’s / 80’s / 90’s attracted many Brethren people and not a few became leaders – it is ironic that mid-week Bible teaching in these churches was, in my experience, never taken really seriously.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
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In Scotland we had a very rigid Brethern "church", where the women and children had to have long hair and things on it, and who were a problem and later closed down after the man in charge higher up in Scotland behaved badly, - and then later I moved elsewhere where there was a really nice Brethern church, and I went there with my friends in the evening, and the person in charge, without me asking or thinking about it, made me a member!
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
(there wasn’t much else in Malta in those days if you weren’t RC).
This is a frivolous digression.
The tallest building in Valetta was the Anglican Cathedral, although I believe the dome of the Carmelite church was deliberately build a bit taller in the 50s to overtop it.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Mark Betts
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# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
In Scotland we had a very rigid Brethern "church", where the women and children had to have long hair and things on it, and who were a problem and later closed down after the man in charge higher up in Scotland behaved badly...
This wouldn't be James Taylor jr and the Aberdeen incident would it?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
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Posted
I consider them poisonous. Having had a branch of the family seriously messed up from the mid-1930s by them. The last group of relatives appears to be coming out from the shadow of the group, but it will be their children's generation that makes it.
The things I would note:
-excessive guilt
-self denial
-biblical literalism in degrees
-personal adherence to their version of Christianity
-self righteousness and judgementalism
-God seems pretty stern and a taskmaster
-more guilt, and repressed emotions.
Perhaps there are other groups. I have letters written between great grandparents that are all in bible verse code. But they were committed. I am descended from a woman who gave up a fortune to "serve as a missionary among the heathen".
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
I have always had a lot of respect for F.F. Bruce's scholarship and good sense, and his book on New Testament History was a great help for me in contextualizing the books of the NT.
On the other hand, the Brethren also spawned Aleister Crowley, so I suppose there's a light and a shadow side.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I had to prove myself as a ‘true’ Christian before I was allowed to participate at the Breaking of Bread or to say a word during the service (sometimes it was quite Quaker-ish in style). And it was obvious to all that there were strict guidelines about living!
For me, the time with [the Brethren] was a good grounding for subsequent Bible College and Christian ministry.
The group’s ‘leader’ was a Mr Ego – a patriarchal type and lovely man.
They must be turning in their graves now as I have rejected it all.
I'd have thought that strict churches like the one you describe have to get fairly hardened to people falling away from the faith, because with such high standards this must happen quite regularly. It's hard for people to enter the circle, easier to fall out of it, or to be ejected.
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I spent over a year in an Open Brethren assembly in Malta whilst doing my National Service.
General Dobbie, who headed up Malta during WWII was Brethren, as was his nephew Orde Wingate of Chindits fame.
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