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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Talking about faith - VR vs. RL
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Arising out of a comment I made on a Styx thread: is it easier for most of us to talk about matters of faith online than it is in real life? If so, why? And if so, does it matter?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
When I am writing a post, as opposed to talking to someone, I have as much time as I want to choose my words. In conversation I feel the need to respond quickly, and I don't always say exactly what I mean.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Miffy
Ship's elephant
# 1438
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Posted
Yes, I often feel the same way, Moo.
And in some ways, I it's easier to share my faith online because of the perceived absence of group pressure; the need to conform to group expectations isn't the same as in a RL church group setting.
Posts: 4739 | From: The Kitchen | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
It somehow seems easier to be less than positive online, without feeling that you are causing problems in your faith community by being destructive. For example, expressing doubts or admitting you are cheesed off about something - the Ship somehow seems a more accommodating vessel than a real life church. She can take it.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I'm always ready to talk about faith matters. Apart from within group meetings specifically designed to do so, other people rarely are. The mere mention of Church or God has most people scurrying away suddenly thinking of something urgent to attend to.
I can always find a discussion online, however. The Ship's the best!
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Jonathan Strange
Shipmate
# 11001
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Posted
Onboard ship, doubters are welcomed. IRL doubters are added to either the prayer list or the blacklist. Or so have I experinced.
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"Wrong will be right, when Aslan comes in sight,
At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more,
When he bears his teeth, winter meets its death,
When he shakes his mane, we shall have spring again"
Posts: 1327 | From: Wessex | Registered: Feb 2006
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
For example, expressing doubts or admitting you are cheesed off about something - the Ship somehow seems a more accommodating vessel than a real life church.
Is this because online forums are the lowest common denominator of community life? You can reveal as much or as little as you want and come and go as you please. I'm not much affected by things done or said on an anonymous online forum, but I am deeply affected by what happens in my real life church community. To me at least real life communities are potentially much more fraught because we invest in them so much more emotionally (or I do anyway).
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
Onboard ship, doubters are welcomed. IRL doubters are added to either the prayer list or the blacklist. Or so have I experinced.
Yes, I find a bit of this. I express my faith and doubts when asked, but I usually keep both to myself.
It's a bit like politics - some people are very uncomfortable with the subject, others are total bores about it, others are so black/white right/wrong they drive you nuts!
So it's a good subject to steer clear from!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
Onboard ship, doubters are welcomed. IRL doubters are added to either the prayer list or the blacklist. Or so have I experinced.
No offence intended, but that makes me kind of glad I don't go to your church. I find the idea that emulating one of the apostles gets you put on a blacklist kind of bizarre.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
No way of proving this, but my gut feel is that folks are less guarded, less "poseurs", when talking about faith on SoF. Probably because we feel we have less to lose by being more candid here.
RL friends can be very tempted to collude with one another, protect one another. Friendship has got to become really deep before we get open and available enough to be truly candid about things which are really important to us.
One of the ex-presenters of Spring Harvest (Pete Meadows) wrote a book, entitled "Pressure Points" I think. One of the chapter headings was "The Great Sunday Lie In." It's part of this social pressure to be "on our best behaviour" - a kind of hangover from the old tradition of wearing "Sunday best." Groupthink can bend you out of shape. "How are you?" on a Sunday morning produces complex internal responses such as "I'd really like to tell you, but I'm not sure you can take it (or if I can really trust you with just how I am feeling - about loving God, loving my neighbour, loving myself)".
Although online here a small minority of folks get their jollies out of deliberate misrepresentation, and just saying things to provoke, I have the impression that the majority of folks feel it's a relatively safe place to let their thoughts and dreams hang out. The anonymity probably helps. (An aside - I'm not sure that's all that true for practising Catholics or conservative evangelicals here - wearing that label seems to be a provocation in itself.)
Personally, I've learned a heck of a lot here about faith dialogue and keeping my cool when faced with conflicting ideas and strong opinions which are not my own. I think it's actually helped me in RL faith dialogue. Although I've always been pretty candid, being candid about difficult issues here has encouraged me to be more candid about them in my local church, given me a better appreciation about how to do that. Some folks' eyes have popped, for others it's been a kind of relief.
Not sure what that says about my local congo, its ecclesiology and its people, or about me. I've always found it to be a kindly place. It feels good though to put into practice some of the valuable lessons I've learned through faith dialogue here. Given that I was 62 when I joined here, that might seem to be surprising, but I've realised that, despite being Christian for over thirty years before I joined, there was some "talking about faith" stuff which had been a completely closed book to me. Until I met this community online. It's been a good place for me and I'm grateful to its anonymous (and not so anonymous) contributors of all shades of opinions for their part in that. Also for the wisdom of the young church leader who said to me, almost 8 years ago "You should try Ship of Fools. I think you'll like it".
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I agree with what Chorister and Jonathan Strange said. I feel that in RL there's a pressure to be a happy Christian all the time.
Also, within my village Parish church I'm not just "me" but my husband's wife, my children's mother. Here, on the Ship, I'm just "me" - I don't have to present myself as a good wife or mother; I can have my own opinions without thinking "how does this reflect on my family?"
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
RL friends can be very tempted to collude with one another, protect one another. Friendship has got to become really deep before we get open and available enough to be truly candid about things which are really important to us.
True, though the beliefs of friends are likely to be - in most cases - less diverse in aggregate than the beliefs of those one encounters on the Ship.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
Onboard ship, doubters are welcomed.
Up to a point, Lord Copper. There's a sort of de facto level of doubt and dissent that's welcomed/tolerated, dependent on context and other people's views, but try saying (for example) that you think the Trinity is a meaningless and nonsensical invention, or that bread is bread however much theological chicanery goes into redefining its "substance". I doubt you'd find much of a welcome.
Of course, both those positions are expressing opinions, however lightly held, but that's the point. If you express a series of doubts, You're likely to get a lot of gentle explanations of why your doubts are unfounded. If you say you don't like those explanations, and find certain counter-arguments far more convincing, it'll get a whole lot rougher. Doubt and dissent is only usually tolerated as long as you're prepared to be preached to.
Just like the CofE, it's pretty much fine to disbelieve or doubt as much as you like, even to the point of not believing anything, as long as you don't rock the boat.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Well, it's sort of the like the "dog-piling" thing. There are a lot of people aboard with conventional Christian beliefs about things like the Trinity. So when one or two people express a different POV; a bunch of traditional Christians chime in to express their POV and add to the discussion. Suddenly the dissenters look and feel like they are under a pile. And as the discussion continues, the ratio rises exponentially as more people join the fray. This happens, too, in conservative versus liberal, super liberal versus kinda-liberal, RC versus Reformed discussions, wherever there is an over-balance of numbers and a lot of passion. I'm not sure what the answer is, except for everyone to at least try to be respectful.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by the Great Gumby:
quote:
try saying (for example) that you think that bread is bread however much theological chicanery goes into redefining its "substance". I doubt you'd find much of a welcome.
I'm a Presbyterian. For us, bread is bread. Our communion bread comes from Tesco, or whatever shop the elder who's on "bread duty" happens to pass en route to church. I've seen Shipmates suggest that Presbyterians are wronger than a wrong thing that is very, very wrong, but I've never felt that I was unwelcome on account of it.
(Perhaps if I posted a flick picture of the church bird table with the left over communion bread on it...?)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Jonathan Strange
Shipmate
# 11001
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
Onboard ship, doubters are welcomed.
Up to a point, Lord Copper.
[Tangent] Just this weekend, after a long period of really meaning to, I finally got around to reading some Waugh for the first time. And then you quote this ![[Smile]](smile.gif) [/Tangent]
I agree with much of the rest of your post that there is a natural end to tolerance for doubters - at least for the professional, hard-headed crusaders. But then I see more crusading from people who are certain in their beliefs, not uncertain. What does intolerance for a doubter look like on board ship?
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"Wrong will be right, when Aslan comes in sight,
At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more,
When he bears his teeth, winter meets its death,
When he shakes his mane, we shall have spring again"
Posts: 1327 | From: Wessex | Registered: Feb 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Just like the CofE, it's pretty much fine to disbelieve or doubt as much as you like, even to the point of not believing anything, as long as you don't rock the boat.
SoF is not a church, it is a discussion forum. So the criterium for being a member "in good standing" is not that you believe in a number of propositions, but that you are willing to discuss them. It is of course true that some propositions will attract more opposition than others, simply because more people here are in fact opposed to them. But by and large I have to say: if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
As far as the OP is concerned, I'm pretty full on on SoF, and pretty full off in real life. I think to a considerable part this is just cowardice and lukewarmness. I just don't want to deal with the potential consequences of being "loud and proud" about my beliefs, I have enough issues to deal with it as is. But partly it is also that I am in fact a private kind of person, and my own spirituality has always been oriented to contemplation. SoF works for me because of the anonymity (which is, I realize, paper-thin - but at least one has to bother ripping off that paper...) and because I assume that anybody coming here actually is happy to discuss religion.
I would agree that there is quite some vicious "don't rock the boat" conservatism present on SoF - but that has little to do with topics and content, and lots to do with conventions and organization. I guess SoF is quite Anglican in that sense...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Originally posted by the Great Gumby:
quote:
try saying (for example) that you think that bread is bread however much theological chicanery goes into redefining its "substance". I doubt you'd find much of a welcome.
I'm a Presbyterian. For us, bread is bread. Our communion bread comes from Tesco, or whatever shop the elder who's on "bread duty" happens to pass en route to church. I've seen Shipmates suggest that Presbyterians are wronger than a wrong thing that is very, very wrong, but I've never felt that I was unwelcome on account of it.
(Perhaps if I posted a flick picture of the church bird table with the left over communion bread on it...?)
I dare you to go and say that to the denizens of Eccles. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
I think Lyda*Rose has it right - it's about weight of opinion and prevailing norms. That's fine, and there's not much that can be done about it, but I'd struggle to call it welcoming if you don't happen to fit roughly within those norms. That's where the doubt/dissent thing comes in. I suppose the difference, in terms of faith loss, is the point when you stop seeing doubt and loss of faith as negative, and start to see it as no worse than neutral, maybe even positive.
People often make assumptions, either spoken or unspoken, when starting threads, and those assumptions will generally be shared by most. Even threads which are ostensibly not on religious topics will have axioms bubbling under the surface. If you disagree with those assumptions, you more or less have to choose between derailing the thread (and incidentally picking a fight you're unlikely to win) or not commenting, even though the thread interests you.
I'm sure we've all followed threads where we've got tired of Dave Marshall or Yorick or someone else derailing it with what we see as their personal hobby horse. But that's a matter of perspective. They're expressing their opinions on topic just like everyone else, it's just that they're outside the unspoken consensus. So they end up posting a lot (because it's them against the world), and come across as crusading just by discussing a subject that interests them. And because their opinions aren't widely shared here, most people will instinctively consider their views tedious and distracting.
It's not anyone's fault exactly, but it's an effect I notice quite a bit. It's why I almost never get involved in threads where I'm just going to be swimming against the tide, and it's why I'd be reluctant to say that doubts are welcomed.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I like talking with my friends about many things: politics, nature, the uniforms in the 3rd season of Star Trek... The range of topics often includes religion, and then it's only natural to say that I'm religious too.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
I think as I've argued before the Ship does have a certain comfort zone (Anglican/Episcopalian, liberalish, leftish, somewhat liturgical). Hence there are some opinions I would feel more comfortable expressing here than in IRL, and some I would feel distinctly LESS comfortable expressing. I don't think the Ship is inherently a wonder of openess and tolerance (I'll admit to finding some of the "Gawd bless the Ship" stuff one reads occasionally a bit self-reverential, but I accept that the Ship hasn't had anything like the impact on my life and faith that it has on some other people's). Online communities have their own taboos and boundaries, just like any other community. The main difference is that they are much more anonymous, less 'institutional', easier to approach on one's own terms.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
A big advantage the Ship was is that you can walk away from it. In the mundane world people who want to talk about things religious often want to go on at length, and may even want me to bare my soul. Here I can say what I want, read only as much as I want to, and withdraw from a conversation when I've had enough - without causing offence.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Perhaps the advantage of the Ship is that you meet people with a huge variety of insights, not least because they are from all over the world. In real life, I meet the people from church plus the people in my own area who are interested in the same things as me (which is why I've got to know them). So my discussions in real life seem to be more limited.
As I'm known as a chorister, my discussions in real life tend to be more about church music than beliefs.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
I think as I've argued before the Ship does have a certain comfort zone (Anglican/Episcopalian, liberalish, leftish, somewhat liturgical).
Fair enough. I'm a good fit for two out of four. I was when I arrived, probably why I didn't have too many difficulties in fitting in here. [I don't go to Eccles very often, Gumby].
Gumby's "swimming against the tide" view is interesting both in a RL and VR setting. I admire folks who "swim against the tide", both here and in RL, who fight their corner.
This place, like local churches, benefits from having Shipmates who stretch the tolerance of comfortable majorities. It's that unrest thing. Looking after the stroppy, even when bashing them with the 10C's, is in the Ship's interests. If you feel comfortable in the centre, it's often difficult to remember that feeling at the margins. I've certainly been there in RL faithsharing.
Which may be where Robert Armin's point comes in. It's easier to scroll past posts than "scroll past" people in RL churches. Hell's handy as well here, but it's hard to see a church equivalent.
[Oh I dunno. I'm recalling stuff Anglican friends have passed on about "bad" PCC meetings ..]
[ 29. May 2012, 13:42: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I'm much better expressing myself in writing than speaking, so I appreciate being able to actually craft my thoughts and sentences. (Although if a discussion is particularly lively, or if I'm very tired, I'm not sure how much "craft" is apparent.)
In RL I tend to dwell either in a religious echo chamber of like minds or else am dealing with my skeptical/Christianity-averse in-laws...the latter often makes me feel defensive, and I think I probably don't engage with them as well as I could if we were passing written messages back and forth. Again, I'm just more comfortable dealing with the written word.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
I think as I've argued before the Ship does have a certain comfort zone (Anglican/Episcopalian, liberalish, leftish, somewhat liturgical).
Fair enough. I'm a good fit for two out of four. I was when I arrived, probably why I didn't have too many difficulties in fitting in here. [I don't go to Eccles very often, Gumby].
Nor me, for similar reasons. And I don't want to have a go at Eccles. I was hoping to illustrate, with a throwaway remark, how some positions aren't all that welcome after all. Or at least that it's rather more complicated than "We Welcome Doubt".
quote:
Gumby's "swimming against the tide" view is interesting both in a RL and VR setting. I admire folks who "swim against the tide", both here and in RL, who fight their corner.
So do I, unless of course it's my tide they're swimming against, in which case they're just being awkward and obtuse. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Seriously, I'm happy to question, nudge and correct, but these days I try to steer clear of real battles, either online or in RL, because it quickly becomes unpleasant and generates more heat than light. I like what you were saying about "looking after the stroppy". We should cherish the oddballs and misfits, because they make life interesting as well as infuriating. IngoB once complained at a dearth of what he called "Interesting Heretics" (or it might have been Heathens). I like that.
I think it is often easier talk about faith online, at least for certain personality types, which may be over-represented among people who are interested in discussing faith. Obviously, you can have time to read, consider and compose your thoughts, which can be very helpful, and you can discuss things that feel very personal without feeling as exposed as in real life. But on the other hand, it's also much easier for some random to come along and let you have both barrels for being a vile heretick. Swings and roundabouts.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Originally posted by the Great Gumby:
quote:
try saying (for example) that you think that bread is bread however much theological chicanery goes into redefining its "substance". I doubt you'd find much of a welcome.
I'm a Presbyterian. For us, bread is bread. Our communion bread comes from Tesco, or whatever shop the elder who's on "bread duty" happens to pass en route to church. I've seen Shipmates suggest that Presbyterians are wronger than a wrong thing that is very, very wrong, but I've never felt that I was unwelcome on account of it.
(Perhaps if I posted a flick picture of the church bird table with the left over communion bread on it...?)
I dare you to go and say that to the denizens of Eccles.
Actually, this particular denizen of Ecclesiantics is not bothered by that as it is occuring in a tradition where the accepted understanding of Eucharistic presence is Receptionism. OTOH, if it was happening in a tradition where the liturgy contains clear instructions about bread disposal, or believes in the Real Presence being in the element and hangs around after the servive is over, then I would squeal.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It's that unrest thing. Looking after the stroppy, even when bashing them with the 10C's, is in the Ship's interests.
Fascinating. I barely wince these days when I bite my tongue, even if I can taste blood.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
Just as it takes a special friend or family member in real life to discuss faith in much detail, it takes a special place in cyberspace. Of course, the Net is full of obsessed street corner preacher types issuing their solipsistic monologues. But how many other places than the Ship can we (1) say something more than platitudinous or glib about religion and (2) expect a thoughtful reply?
Most of us can't get much experience in oral discussion about religion because it and politics are considered inherently impolite. This is understandable, yet it's difficult to think of two subjects that matter more. If you aspire to be a first-rate person, who talks about ideas (while second-rate people talk about things and third-rate people talk about other people), how can you possibly avoid them? (One might put aesthetics up there with the other two in priority, but that's a bizarre opinion
in itself).
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
As well as being considered impolite, I find most RL people are not really that interested in talking about religion. Whereas I guess we are on the Ship because we are interested in talking about religion. So it's a self-selected group to some extent.
Even people who go to church don't seem to be interested in actually talking about religion, they are more interested in practising it, and listening to ordained clergy and readers doing the talking. Well in my denomination, anyway - there is not a lot of interest when study nights, etc. are advertised.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
As per usual, I seem the odd one out. I find myself even more guarded here than RL and I communicate much more poorly with the written than verbal in a discussion type format.
I will half-way disagree with Gumby. While I do think it is more difficult for those who do not lean towards the majority thought than those that do, this website is more diverse and welcoming than the vast majority of narrow interest sites I have encountered.
As mentioned, I do think most of the denizens here are self-selected as more likely to wish to discuss and debate.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Just like the CofE, it's pretty much fine to disbelieve or doubt as much as you like, even to the point of not believing anything, as long as you don't rock the boat.
But our atheists (bless them) do exactly that and keep coming back, so the believers among us can't be giving them too hard a time.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It's that unrest thing. Looking after the stroppy, even when bashing them with the 10C's, is in the Ship's interests.
Fascinating. I barely wince these days when I bite my tongue, even if I can taste blood.
You've probably got the point, but it follows from the ethos that the aim of applying the 10Cs to the stroppier Shipmates - as to any other Shipmate - is to correct specifically, rather than tame generally. Provided Shipmates don't go the jerk route, that is.
[I suppose this might be a Styxy-type tangent, but the principle is also interesting in faith-sharing in RL. It's about respecting autonomy.]
[ 30. May 2012, 05:31: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
I think as I've argued before the Ship does have a certain comfort zone (Anglican/Episcopalian, liberalish, leftish, somewhat liturgical).
I've not been here for long, relatively speaking, and this is the vibe I get too. On the last religious messageboard I used to frequent, there was a much wider representation of Christian 'types', as well as atheists, agnostics and anti-theists. It made things less predictable than here, but you'd also feel insulted more often as well!
It's true that religion is a delicate topic and, at least in British culture, it's not really the done thing to dwell on it too much in public. When in RL I tell people what church I go to, I often find that they're are moderately curious rather than combative, but it's not always easy to know how to proceed if the conversation turns towards being critical of a particular denomination, or accusing all religion of being troublesome, etc. My father sometimes gets into this kind of mood, and it's good to have a clear answer about human nature winning out against religion, etc. but not much more comes of that kind of discussion. With a stranger, you don't know what will incite their angry disapproval, and when people start ridiculing your religious beliefs, it's bad enough online, but it's more painful face to face.
Discussing these things with people from other cultures is a novel experience for me. I often find myself talking about my experience of Christian life, but then someone will pull me up on it, and I realise that for Americans/ Australians/ Canadians their reality will be very different. But it's not just them, though. I don't live in a part of the UK where the Christian culture is particularly strong, so when other Christians here talk about the vast Christian networks they've been part of in the UK I realise that that's very different from my experience too. My denominational experiences, although in a mainstream church, don't seem to be replicated by others on this board.
Plus, on here, I seem to represent a kind of evangelicalism, whereas in RL I probably wouldn't.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Well, it's sort of the like the "dog-piling" thing. <snippety snip> I'm not sure what the answer is, except for everyone to at least try to be respectful.
I used to join in. Now if someone has already said what I'm thinking I read and move on, not posting. Doesn't help the post count though.
The difference with posting on the interweb and real life is that in real life if something angers me I either say something hurtful or shut up until the anger passes. Online I start typing, by the time I'm halfway through an angry tirade I've calmed down somewhat so I can go back revise the post and edit the most hurtful stuff out.
I find I am able to express my anger in a more constructive form online. (Anyone who knows me and thinks I'm mistaken please PM me - I need to know when I'm wrong.)
But that's my personality. For someone else it may be the other way round.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
If you express a series of doubts, You're likely to get a lot of gentle explanations of why your doubts are unfounded. If you say you don't like those explanations, and find certain counter-arguments far more convincing, it'll get a whole lot rougher. Doubt and dissent is only usually tolerated as long as you're prepared to be preached to.
And there are one or two who seem TO get quite annoyed about non-believers' views.!!
It was, however, a privilege and a pleasure a few years ago to meet a group of SoFmembers.
quote:
Just like the CofE, it's pretty much fine to disbelieve or doubt as much as you like, even to the point of not believing anything, as long as you don't rock the boat.
On the general question of whether one can talk about faith, or in my case atheism, I think that web sites are a real bonus. When I was a child, it was absolutely not done to talk about religion, as it was the heighht of bad manners; now it seems that the subject is much more openly and easily mentioned (on news media for example) although the vast majority of peoplee are just not interested I think. I have one close friend who, although she knows that I was a believer for a large part of my life, 'knows' that I simply 'don't understand'. However, we never run out of other things to talk about! Most of my contemporaries are not interested, attend church only when required to do so - for family functions-often funerals! - so the opportunity to follow a discussion on forums very much broadens one's views.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
But our atheists (bless them) do exactly that and keep coming back, so the believers among us can't be giving them too hard a time.
And a topic like this, with every post of equal interest is an example of why!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
I think as I've argued before the Ship does have a certain comfort zone (Anglican/Episcopalian, liberalish, leftish, somewhat liturgical). Hence there are some opinions I would feel more comfortable expressing here than in IRL, and some I would feel distinctly LESS comfortable expressing.
I am afraid crap in the punch bowl on two of those points, and as a result I tend to keep away from the political and theological discussions for that reason. Unless someone really goes off the reservation.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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