Ship of Fools: Does being a Christian mean you'll never work in a natural history museum?

Thread: Does being a Christian mean you'll never work in a natural history museum? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

I've just been struck by this notion as I've tried to pursue a career path in educational software.

I have two potential clients. Client A is a start-up application programmer who wants to write an app that explains bird evolution from dinosaurs and pitch it to the local museum. Client B is a devout Pentecostal Christian with a lot of useful contacts and exciting project possibilities.

I've just refused to work with Client A in order to not offend Client B later down the track. I confess that I decided this more on a political basis than a religious one.

Now I'm not looking for a evolution debate, but I'm wondering what Christian public school-teachers do when natural history or paleontology is the study topic. Do they choose teaching roles that avoid the subject, do they simply share the knowledge they've been given or do they explain where popular beliefs are wrong at the risk of damaging their careers?

[ 03. June 2012, 07:00: Message edited by: Ancient Mariner ]

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

Depends what sort of Christian you mean. And in what way are A and B connected so that if you work for A then B finds out about it?

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
Now I'm wondering what Christian public school-teachers do when natural history or paleontology is the study topic.

Teach the subject, I imagine. We're not all crazy closed-mind creationists, you know.

Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Depends what sort of Christian you mean. And in what way are A and B connected so that if you work for A then B finds out about it?

Client A wants to work on a profit-sharing basis. I'm expecting that means that I will be a part-author of this. I have asked Client B about this and he's said it's my choice not to believe the Bible.

Client B believes there isn't different sorts of Christians.

[ 31. May 2012, 10:51: Message edited by: Highfive ]

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
Client B believes there isn't different sorts of Christians.

Client B is wrong.

Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

^ I take that back. He's not like all other Pentecostals I've met and he does believe there are different sorts.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
... I'm wondering what Christian public school-teachers do when natural history or paleontology is the study topic. Do they choose teaching roles that avoid the subject, do they simply share the knowledge they've been given or do they explain where popular beliefs are wrong at the risk of damaging their careers?

"This is how it happened, and if God disagrees he can smite me with boils in the next five seconds ..... No boils? Right, as I was saying, this is how it happened..."

Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

I need to get out of this fucking city.

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
...I'm wondering what Christian public school-teachers do when natural history or paleontology is the study topic. Do they choose teaching roles that avoid the subject, do they simply share the knowledge they've been given or do they explain where popular beliefs are wrong at the risk of damaging their careers?

In the UK, I believe science teachers are obliged to teach the theory of evolution by natural selection. I suppose the get-out clause for creationist Christians is that they can simply teach what the theory claims, and say 'this is the scientific consensus' without saying they believe it themselves.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
... I'm wondering what Christian public school-teachers do when natural history or paleontology is the study topic. Do they choose teaching roles that avoid the subject, do they simply share the knowledge they've been given or do they explain where popular beliefs are wrong at the risk of damaging their careers?
"This is how it happened, and if God disagrees he can smite me with boils in the next five seconds ..... No boils? Right, as I was saying, this is how it happened..."

Posted by Mockingale (# 16599) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:

Now I'm not looking for a evolution debate, but I'm wondering what Christian public school-teachers do when natural history or paleontology is the study topic. Do they choose teaching roles that avoid the subject, do they simply share the knowledge they've been given or do they explain where popular beliefs are wrong at the risk of damaging their careers?

Every Christian teacher I know who teaches natural science teaches actual science, because they are not stupid fundamentalists. Are you one of those who think you can't be Christian if you don't believe that the Earth was actually created 6000 years ago, or that Satan fabricated dinosaur bones and carbon-14 to lead the faithful astray?

Any person who believes Genesis to be the factually accurate account of the formation of Earth, life and the human species has absolutely no business teaching science classes where an understanding of modern science on the origin of life on Earth is necessary. Any creationist who does so is a fraud. [Disappointed]

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Depends what sort of Christian you mean. And in what way are A and B connected so that if you work for A then B finds out about it?
Client A wants to work on a profit-sharing basis. I'm expecting that means that I will be a part-author of this. I have asked Client B about this and he's said it's my choice not to believe the Bible.

Client B believes there isn't different sorts of Christians.

I know a guy in a niche market (he isn't the sole supplier in the UK, but there are only a few) who supplied his services to Rangers FC and Celtic FC. They aren't however his total customer base (a good thing, given the state Rangers FC is in) but business is business and he has to take risks.

As for Christian science teachers, those I know teach the syllabus. As that varies, so does the teaching.

Just as an aside, I'd look very carefully at profit-sharing. Does this mean risk-sharing too?

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
I need to get out of this fucking city.

You mean the one that gave us Sir Joh and Pauline Hanson.

Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

Yes, that one. Don't forget Bob Katter, Mad as a Hatter.

I'm TRYING to find level-headed people here, I swear!

[ 31. May 2012, 11:26: Message edited by: Highfive ]

Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :

I don't like the wording of the OP, since 'Christian' isn't and never has been synonomous with 'Young Earth Creationist'.

However, in the spirit of debate, I'm happy to ignore the push-button language and engage with the issue. I know that YEC science teachers for instance do teach evolution as its on the curriculum, even though they may not do it particularly well since they don't understand it, and make perhaps more of repeatedly framing it as 'just a theory' than necessary.

But even nonYEC Christians have similar issues when they are RE teachers, or doctors, where they have to help the student or patient but aren't ethically allowed to proselytise or evangelise. If you are a psychiatrist and a Christian for instance, there is a tension between one's personal beliefs that may see the symptoms as partly spiritual in cause, and the reality that any attempt to voice these beliefs and try to help the patient spiritually will cross a serious ethical line. If a teacher is approached in the classroom by a student who sincerely wants to know about Jesus and hear the gospel, how does the teacher deal with this without crossing the line? Yet committed Christians walk this line every day.

The difference is between passive engagement with the ethics and laws of the land, (basically not doing what you see as good so you can keep your job), and actively choosing to assist in promoting something you may see as sinful. The YEC science teacher would struggle more with the latter, while the Christian psychiatrist may struggle with the former.

In regards to the OP specifically, I'd suggest that if Client B is a YEC, that does not necessarily preclude him interacting with and going into business with you and Client A. The problem is only if he wants to make a stand and refuse to work because he sees it as promoting something he believes is wrong and (possibly) harmful. This is his personal choice between himself and his conscience though. Depending on his personal beliefs, he may choose either way. Probably best to talk to him about it rather than making assumptions and then making business decisions based on those broad-brush assumptions.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:

... I'm wondering what Christian public school-teachers do when natural history or paleontology is the study topic.

Well, you could always ask what Ghillean Prance does, one of the best-known botanical taxonomists in the world (well, the admittedly not that large world of botanical taxonomists) who was recently the Director of Kew Gardens, which (as well as being a beautiful place to spend a Sunday afternoon) is one of the two or three most important research centres into systematics and evolution in the world. Or RJ (Sam) Berry, recently professor of genetics at UCL, and author of some seriously good books about ecology and evolution. Or Simon Conway Morris, who is as near to famous as a paleontologist can get (he was the reluctant "hero" of a book by Steven Jay Gould). Or if you want an American, Francis Collins, who was director of the Human Genome Project. (Yes, that Human Genome Project).

That's four well known biologists, all of them both researchers and educators, who are all Christians, all evangelicals, at least two of them conservative evangelicals, and who have been vocally opposed to YEC. I doubt if any of their careers has suffered because of that. So why should your guys?

Also, if I read the OP right, your programmer "Client A" isn't losing out on job opportunities because of fundamentalist yeccies. He isn't losing out because some craven school board is givng in to anti-scientific lobbying. He's losing out because you won't work with him. Why would you want to do that?

Disclaimer here: I work in a university, I'm a computer programmer, and I study biology. The particular part of biology I got my Masters degree in is bioinformatics, and the bits of biology I am most interested in are genetics and evolution and ecology, so pretty much the exact sort of thing your programmer seems to be thinking of doing. So it strikes a nerve. It feels like you are telling me not to do my research because its bad for your business.

And from a research scientist's point of view letting commerical pressure dictate your results is a serious no-no. One of the worst scientific or scholarly sins in the book. It probably counts as a little worse than faking your data or plagiarism, but isn't quite as bad as shagging the students or designing secret superweapons for mad dictactors to install in hidden underground bases on remote Pacific islands.

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

Highfive, if you let your career development be determined by what you imagine some potential employer may like or dislike, you will have a pretty miserable and unproductive career. If educational software is what you want to do, you should take the opportunity that best allows you to develop your professional skills.

My guess is that those loonie YACs would love to have an employee who had developed a killer app for teaching evolution, and wouldn't be at all interested in hiring a true believer who couldn't code his way out of a paper bag. So developing your skills in such a way that you can show potential employers that there is real technical value in hiring you will always be in your interest.

Forget about playing mind games with imaginary employers and concentrate on learning your craft. I've been a medical device software engineer for as long as there have been medical software developers, and that approach has stood me in good stead in my career path. FWIW

--Tom Clune

[ 31. May 2012, 12:53: Message edited by: tclune ]

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

Simply from a commercial point of view, I would have thought that there will be many, many more client As than there will be client Bs (even in Australia...)

Yes, I know some YECcies. One of them even teaches physics. The majority of Christians-who-are-scientists are comfortable with and affirm the age of the Earth and the process of evolution without regarding themselves as shameful heretics. I'm one of them.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Let's leave aside the question of evolution and look at this more objectively.

You sell your skills on the open market in educational software. Unless you decide you want to pitch yourself entirely at a market of scientific biologists or religious organisations, you need all the business you can get.

I'm retired now but when I was working, the organisation I worked for had a lot of environmental policies e.g. on using sustainably sourced hardwoods. I had a lot of difficulty getting some colleagues to understand that it was utterly unreasonable, and indeed nonsense, to expect their contractors to agree to use only the right sort of wood 'full stop', rather than just on the contracts they did for my organisation, that their other customers were entitled to decide what sort of wood they used on other contracts and whether they were willing to pay more for the 'right sort'.

To put it another way. If I hire someone to do some work for me, I am entitled to say how they do that work. If that costs me more, I have to expect to pay for that.

I am not entitled to say that if someone else hires them to do something else, I have any say in how they work for that someone else. That is that client's decision, not mine. They deliver to suit that client. What I happen to like or not like is irrelevant.

So in your case, you are entitled, and it is quite proper, to say (tactfully) to both A and B,
'In what I do for you, you can tell me what you require and I will do what I can to meet it. You are not entitled to dictate - either directly or indirectly - what my other clients may require. That is not just interfering with my freedom, but theirs'.

If a customer doesn't accept that, and you can afford to, I would say, drop them. Otherwise you are in hock to them, but carrying the risk to your business yourself.

That's how I'd apply that to contracts.

Going back to your actual question, which was about teachers, if the school has a syllabus that contains X, I'd imagine you teach X, i.e. the official line. The head, though, is not entitled to insist that every teacher is always willing to put their hand on their heart and lie to their pupils by saying they actually believe X utterly and unequivocally.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Teach the subject, I imagine. We're not all crazy closed-mind creationists, you know.

This.

I'm a Christian Primary school teacher in a Church school, of course I teach evolution!

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

My uncle has a doctorate in Geology and Paleontology. He heads up the Mammoth Digs in Hot Springs, South Dakota. He has gone to Russia a couple of times to dig up frozen Mammoths. He hopes to be able to clone one and bring it back to life. Did I mention he is a Christian?

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

I can't see what the problem is.

Even as far back as the 1970s, my own biology teacher described it thus: there are two possible ways I could approach this subject - by teaching evolution or creationism. As I'm the science teacher, I will teach evolution. If you want to know about creationism, ask your RE teacher.

It seemed to make sense then, and it makes sense now.

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :

Chorister

quote:

I can't see what the problem is.
Even as far back as the 1970s, my own biology teacher described it thus: there are two possible ways I could approach this subject - by teaching evolution or creationism. As I'm the science teacher, I will teach evolution. If you want to know about creationism, ask your RE teacher.
It seemed to make sense then, and it makes sense now.

The potential problem, Chorister, is that the RE teacher might not support the Biology teacher, and present Creationism as an alternative scientific explanation to natural selection. The damage Creationists have done to the credibility of Christianity is incalculable. Obscurantism should have no place in Christian thinking and teaching.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

I think as teenagers, though, we were rather good at making up our own minds. Rather too good, our teachers and parents would have probably said. So not too much danger there....

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :

I hope you are right. I agree that teenagers will make up their own minds, but will be persuaded that a scientific view of the world is incompatible with religious faith and reject the latter. Creationism does not help Christian apologetics.

Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

Sioni Sais - Profit-sharing looks like the only viable way to get work started for freelancers these days. As far as risk-sharing is concerned, there is a strong explanation of the risks on this thread. Client B is not a loonie, but he does have a real headache right now.

Boogie - Thank you!

Thank you very much for your responses, guys! I wish I could change the thread title now, if I could.

The potential problem for me is business relationships. I gain work through making connections and choosing the right ones to maintain. Client B has a mind-boggling amount of energy and the means to see one of my long-term dreams become reality. We've been talking about it for over a year and he's been able to gather quite a few influential people in that time. I would like to see people like him succeed. Now that I've worked for him for a short time, I've seen that he often overestimates what his team can achieve. I just recently learned that his devout family believes he needs to have his feet a little more on the ground if he is to go forward.

Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

quote:
I would like to see people like him succeed

I should say, "I would like him to succeed". I've had a gutful of people "like him"

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I can't see what the problem is.

Even as far back as the 1970s, my own biology teacher described it thus: there are two possible ways I could approach this subject - by teaching evolution or creationism. As I'm the science teacher, I will teach evolution. If you want to know about creationism, ask your RE teacher.

It seemed to make sense then, and it makes sense now.

And the overwhelming majority of RE teachers here would support evolution over creationism.

Posted by Stranger in a strange land (# 11922) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I can't see what the problem is.

Even as far back as the 1970s, my own biology teacher described it thus: there are two possible ways I could approach this subject - by teaching evolution or creationism. As I'm the science teacher, I will teach evolution. If you want to know about creationism, ask your RE teacher.

It seemed to make sense then, and it makes sense now.

Seems to me that this presents a false dichotomy between science and religion.

Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Creationism does not help Christian apologetics.

No?

My A level Biology teacher (a Christian)said before he taught evolution that not everyone agreed with it, but it had to be taught as it was on the curriculum. He then taught it, not mentioning the disagreement again.

The upshot was that students asked him about what the disagreement was, and he was able to share his faith, freely admitting that unlike him some Christians believed in evolution as well.

Dawinism becomes an opportunity for evangelism, fantastic [Big Grin]

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
My A level Biology teacher (a Christian)said before he taught evolution that not everyone agreed with it, but it had to be taught as it was on the curriculum. He then taught it, not mentioning the disagreement again.

The upshot was that students asked him about what the disagreement was, and he was able to share his faith, freely admitting that unlike him some Christians believed in evolution as well.

That's all well and good, as long as the students don't end up being...

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
...persuaded that a scientific view of the world is incompatible with religious faith and reject the latter.

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

Highfive: I know I am speaking from the comfort of a place where my livelihood isn't contingent on schmoozing clients...but my reaction, as I've read this thread and your additional comments regarding the situation, is -- don't let assholes dictate your professional life.

Client B doesn't approve of Client A? Tough titties. Client A is none of his business. Move on.

BTW, when I was at university my town-and-gown university congregation was loaded with professors from the various science colleges -- not a fundamentalist among them. It's very sad to me that in 30 years "Christian" has become so synonymous with "fundamentalist" that people can't fathom the idea of a Christian scientist who isn't some sort of reactionary loon.

Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

Yes, but this application for Client A has the potential to lead onto more work explaining evolution. I don't see it moving onto other fields like astronomy, medicine or geology.

If I develop that while also showing in an interest in understanding intelligent design with Client B, who is the asshole now?

"It is the glory of God to conceal matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings" Proverbs 25:1

That's pretty much where I stand on it.

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

Then I'm not sure I understand your issue. What's your problem here?

Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

Sorry, Lutheran, that came out a little angry. You're right about Client A's work being none of Client B's business. Assholes should not dictate another's professional life.

My apologies, my issue is not what the OP is about. Schoolteachers make a wage from teaching students curriculum. Everyone understands that. Evolution may be a part of that curriculum. That's not an issue.

Developing an app that explains evolution means that you earn a profit from promoting evolution. You directly compete against other apps explaining how life was formed to continue earning a profit. The issue is, can I make a profit promoting evolution if I'm am lending an ear towards understanding intelligent design? I don't believe that I can.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Highfive, though I disagree with your values myself, I would have to say first you have to be true to what you value yourself.

For me, there is no issue between religion and science. The creation stories are statements of belief that God created everything--and as Luther would put it--continues to be involved in creation. The seven day creation story affirms the total involvement of God in creation, but it does not indicate the mechanics of creation. Evolution looks only at the mechanics of creation but says nothing about who is behind it or why creation happened. Moreover, the Biblical creation stories (and there are more than two) affirm the goodness of nature. This was a very radical thought at the time the creations stories developed. It still is a radical thought today.

Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
Any person who believes Genesis to be the factually accurate account of the formation of Earth, life and the human species has absolutely no business teaching science classes where an understanding of modern science on the origin of life on Earth is necessary. Any creationist who does so is a fraud.

And one would wonder how they got a science degree. Nothing in biology makes sense without evolution (which I think is a quote, but not sure whose).

I also recall Stephen Jay Gould's writings about watching court testimony from teachers who discussed in court that there was no credible way to mention 'other views' contrary to evolution, because of there being no science data to support 'other views'. And when asked what they would do if forced by law to represent creationist views at all, even by mention, one stated to the judge 'it would be my tendency to break the law'. Because to mention nonscience views in a science class forces the discarding of the foundation of science. There is no room for another view that is not a science view. Period. The integrity of such people astounds me. As does the misunderstanding of science such that mentioning belief based ideas is not seen as harmful to basics of the subject.

Another discussed a class exercise where time from the big bang forward was represented by a string help at particular milestones by students, she said if forced to represent creationism 'I'd have to get a short string' to laughter.

Being Christian does not mean you reject facts. It means that you seek truth, including scientific truth.

[ 01. June 2012, 03:30: Message edited by: no_prophet ]

Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
Nothing in biology makes sense without evolution (which I think is a quote, but not sure whose).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_in_Biology_Makes_Sense_Except_in_the_Light_of_Evolution (Russian Orthodox Christian Theodosius Dobzhansky)
Thanks, guys. I'm still struggling, though.

[ 01. June 2012, 04:27: Message edited by: Highfive ]

Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

...and to think that Client B was excitedly lending out his copy of Heroes Season 2 [Disappointed]

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:

Developing an app that explains evolution means that you earn a profit from promoting evolution. You directly compete against other apps explaining how life was formed to continue earning a profit. The issue is, can I make a profit promoting evolution if I'm am lending an ear towards understanding intelligent design? I don't believe that I can.

What do you mean by 'lending an ear'?

Do you mean stroking their ego?

I would say go with your own integrity every time. Money isn't worth letting go of that for. There will be plenty more clients down the line.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

Also, "promoting evolution"?

When I teach a unit on rockets (as I have just done), am I "promoting gravity"? Or am I helping to explain how the world works?

Evolution should be an uncontentious theory for all the reasons above. That some highly misguided Christians have chosen to make it contentious does not reflect (a)the opinions of most Christians or (b)what God clearly intended.

Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
What do you mean by 'lending an ear'?

Do you mean stroking their ego?

It was him saying "I was a skeptic, too" then passing me PDFs of YECs making cases against evolution. He said it was enough to convince him. It made scientific cases against evolution, but there was still a huge gaping hole in how there would be any useful gain in researching intelligent design.
I can't go into his ego. I just suspect that good must be happening if I'm pissing him off all the time from asking innocent questions.

Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

"scientific cases against evolution" - I mean logical cases.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Any Christian who would be bothered by my working in a natural history museum has needs deeper than anything I could do regardless of where I worked or didn't.

Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

Doc Tor, if you made a software program that allowed you to design rockets and see how they fly in simulated space (like Kerbal Space Program), you would, in a sense, be promoting space rockets as being-

Shit, it's his ego

Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

Damn edit time limits.
Doc Tor, writing software about evolution doesn't promote it, I admit, but it makes people aware of it. If Client B has an issue with greater awareness being made for evolution, he must be afraid of something.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Highfive: Does being a Christian means you'll never work in a natural history museum?

As long as he keeps his conversation about the bees and the flowers, he'll be alright [Biased]

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
I need to get out of this fucking city.
You mean the one that gave us Sir Joh and Pauline Hanson.

I hate to admit it, but Sir Joh was actually a Kiwi - from a small town called Dannevirke. I believe, though the Aussies were welcome to him. Fair swap, they gave us possums, which decimate our native birds = we gave them Sir Joh. [Biased]

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Sometimes others' Christian beliefs can make working with integrity difficult. At the job I have just finished*, I was the only non-YECcie and it meant that I refused to go near teaching science, although it's what I'm actually trained to teach, rather than the maths and PSE I have been leading. It was an option, and the official reason was that the syllabus for the Entry Level is huge and practically impossible to cover†.

We had an assembly slot recently when the Elim Pentecostal minister said in passing that "some Christians even believe in evolution" at which I piped up "including me" to hear background muttering that showed that nobody else did. And my mental fulmination was along the lines of thick arts graduates (two English teachers, one with a goodness-knows-from-where theology degree) who have no maths let alone any scientific understanding.

* shoestring alternative education where current funding means the funding has got so stretched they can't afford to pay me and no, they aren't going to make me redundant - they've found volunteers and people who can cope with being paid late and erratically to fill the gaps;
† because it's alternative education, the subjects covered are maths, English, PSE, ASDAN to nod at everything else, and this year as bonus, Art & Design and ICT care of me, and History from a History teacher coming to the end of extended maternity leave one morning a week, plus cooking for life taught by another teacher coming in on her afternoon off.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

To be fair to the Client Bs of this world, there were times and places in the early Church when there were all sorts of jobs you couldn't do if you wanted to become a Christian. I haven't got my copy of Hippolytus's Apostolic Tradition to hand, but isn't there a section in that that discusses the issue? Soldiers, I think, can't become Christians. (Or Christians can't become soldiers. Or both.) And I think teachers can't be Christians either - because they teach the Greek and Roman myths in school.

And we think we've got it bad because some unevolved Christians don't like evolution. [Biased]

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:

The issue is, can I make a profit promoting evolution if I'm am lending an ear towards understanding intelligent design? I don't believe that I can.

I'm really confused here. "Evolution" and "Creation" are not competing products like Pepsi and Coke that need to be "promoted" to trick people into buying them. Its about science, not advertising.

And "Intelligent Design" is not opposed to evolution anyway, it is an alternative unscientific explanation of the mechanisms of evolution. What on earth could be wrong with understanding it? In fact everyone should understand it - then they'd see why its wrong.

The more publicity popular but false scientific ideas get the better. It exposes them to criticism they can't stand up to. Let a hundred flowers bloom.

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

Look -- being a software developer is like providing any other kind of service, like working for an ad agency or doing IT work or providing landscape services. You're a hired gun; you take on an assortment of clients to earn your living. The people hiring you know that (or should, otherwise they're pretty stupid).

If you were an account executive at an ad or PR agency, you might be working for a fast-food burger chain one day and a vegan weight-loss plan the next. If you had a landscaping company you might be working in the front yard of the local Baptist church one day and a mosque the next. If you're an accountant your clients may include individuals on opposite sides of any ideological issue or business competition. If you're an ER doctor you're treating wounded gang members and wounded police officers. That's the way it goes.

Why not take on both clients, if you can, and double your connections/networking?

Again...not seeing a problem here.

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

And if you're "struggling" with ideas about origins, as you say you are, then why not give your two clients an equal amount of attention? Unless you've already made up your mind, which begs the question of why we're here discussing this issue at all.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

You are not responsible for what your client’s products promote. You just have to decide whether or not what they’re promoting is something you’d want to be involved in. If you don’t want to get involved in designing an app that promotes X then don’t. But do that because of what you believe to be right rather than what someone else might think.

You have no control over whether client A would like it if you’re working for client B – but who else you work for isn’t really anyone else’s business. You just do the best you can for both clients and make sure you're not favouring one over another.

And, if you have a portfolio of projects you’ve worked on you can do what every other freelancer does – and highlight the ones that are relevant and don’t mention the ones that aren’t.

Your're overthinking this ...

Tubbs

[ 01. June 2012, 12:32: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Highfive

Welcome to the Ship and I hope you enjoy this unrestful place.

Although not the primary issue you wanted to discuss, it's clear that you have some unresolved questions re evolution and intelligent design. On the Dead Horses discussion board here, the threads re evolution provide varieties of opinions on evolution, creationism, intelligent design etc. A lot to read and ponder there. Maybe too much.

Haven't looked at it for ages, but there is a massive discussion on intelligent design to be found on "The Death of Darwinism" thread. Probably worth a review. Join in, if you like.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
And if you're "struggling" with ideas about origins, as you say you are, then why not give your two clients an equal amount of attention? Unless you've already made up your mind, which begs the question of why we're here discussing this issue at all.

I'm struggling because I have a friend who shares similar aspirations to me and who I hoped could mentor me in understanding God better. He is always willing to point out that my greatest flaw is that I simply do not "believe".

We had an altercation when he told me he'd be willing to die for Christ at anytime, then questioned me if I'm ready, too. I screamed at him that he has succumbed to blindness in front of a large Pentecostal congregation having coffee. So fucking satisfying.

He has accused me on non-belief twice now and has twice asked me what right I have to judge God when I ask him questions. I don't walk away from him because I think he needs a pain in the arse to give him perspective before he destroys what he hopes to achieve.

Only problem is, he's read the Bible several times whereas I've read selective books.

Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :

So what exactly are your "aspirations"? And how do they connect to your choice of clients? I confess, I'm still not sure what the question is.

It kind of sounds like you want to believe in ID, because someone has convinced you that a Real Christian™ should, and furthermore that a Real Christian™ would not participate in any activity that might encourage people to believe in Darwinian models of evolution. So you are trying to force yourself to believe something you don't, and to act as if you are committed to something you don't really believe in. No wonder you're confused.

Posted by Grammatica (# 13248) on :

It looks a little different if you're in a place (as I am) where Creationism is mainstream. There was a practice for many years in the local high schools of giving a sketchy presentation of evolution, paired with the presentation of one form or another of Creationism as having equal scientific value.

That's probably typical of the way evolution has been presented to students in the rural Southern US, and perhaps in similar areas elsewhere. Most students still believe they cannot accept evolution and still call themselves Christians. Only atheists accept the theory of evolution. So not surprisingly I have noticed a rising number of atheists among older students.

I do sometimes mention that probably a majority of Christians worldwide find evolutionary theory compatible with Christian belief. Unfortunately, because that majority includes Catholics, who may not be considered Christians by my students, and the Orthodox, who are entirely unknown to them, my statement usually falls flat. Most Christians locally do not and cannot accept evolutionary theory as providing a scientific account of the origin and development of life on earth.

Recently an invited speaker (local) at my college departed from her text and gave the assembled faculty and students a right-wing political stem-winder, one part of which had to do with people who will not allow "us" to present Intelligent Design in class, as a scientific theory on a par with evolution. And how long would we be willing to stand for things like that? she asked.

As the state of Florida is talking (again) about doing away with tenure for college professors, I suppose the answer is "Not very long." It's already an act of courage here for a biology professor to teach evolution without any caveats. The pressure on high school teachers to present Creationism along with "Darwinism" is extremely strong. In the rural colleges, at least, I can easily imagine professors being fired for not presenting Creationism in biology class.

Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

Since I've signed an NDA, I can't go into specifics on these aspirations, plus this is the internet.

quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
In the rural colleges, at least, I can easily imagine professors being fired for not presenting Creationism in biology class.

This, to me, is ultimately counter-productive towards advancing knowledge in biology. If I explained this to Client B, he would consider it a betrayal of his trust, even though I've only listened to his take on Intelligent Design and have not made any promises.

I really should just say goodbye. There's far too many risks being associated with him if I'm to start a business making educational software or anything else.

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

quote:
I'm TRYING to find level-headed people here, I swear!

Really-sounds to me like you've been trying hard to find the lunatic fringe????? Young earth creationism is pretty much a non-issue in Australia. I've just not seen it discussed in Christian organisations or raised as an issue in schools.

Christian (same as other) public school teachers in Australia have an ethical and legal responsibility to teach the state-mandated syllabus, which IIRC includes evolution. If you can't do it, don't take the job.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Also, "promoting evolution"?

When I teach a unit on rockets (as I have just done), am I "promoting gravity"? Or am I helping to explain how the world works?

This.

Working on software concerning a subject or teaching a subject is not promoting it.

You need have no fear on that score.

Posted by Bean Sidhe (# 11823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
I agree that teenagers will make up their own minds, but will be persuaded that a scientific view of the world is incompatible with religious faith and reject the latter. Creationism does not help Christian apologetics.

I was raised YEC and geocentrist, but had decided before my teens that this was crazy. True, I was an atheist for years, but not for that reason and I came back in time to a (hopefully) intelligent faith.

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

Highfive: Anyone who is going to scream at you for having a healthy amount of doubt/openness to living in "shades of gray" rather than reducing every issue to "Christian right versus damnation wrong," and for doubting your Christianity because you're at least open to the theory of evolution is too ignorant/too immature to be a spiritual mentor of any kind. Time to expand your circle of Christian friends.

Posted by Lothiriel (# 15561) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:

Developing an app that explains evolution means that you earn a profit from promoting evolution. You directly compete against other apps explaining how life was formed to continue earning a profit. The issue is, can I make a profit promoting evolution if I'm am lending an ear towards understanding intelligent design? I don't believe that I can.

I work as a freelance editor. I've worked on books that espouse many different ideas, and there certainly are some that I don't agree with*, and certainly not all the authors would agree with each other. But agreeing with my clients is not my job. I help them make their message as clear, understandable, and logically consistent as possible. What happens to their ideas out in the world is not primarily my concern.

* I wouldn't take on a project where I thought the material was libellous or dangerous or otherwise inappropriate.

Posted by Bean Sidhe (# 11823) on :

I've known directly of only one case in the UK where a YEC teacher refused to teach evolution - and he was a head of science who tried to ban any of his staff from doing so. Shockingly, instead of being told to teach the curriculum or sling his hook, he was promoted out of the post and eventually got his own school to run.

High five, you do seem very confused, need to have a long think about the job you do and exactly what your responsibilities are. Or perhaps more fruitfully, what they are not.

Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Highfive: Anyone who is going to scream at you for having a healthy amount of doubt/openness to living in "shades of gray" rather than reducing every issue to "Christian right versus damnation wrong," and for doubting your Christianity because you're at least open to the theory of evolution is too ignorant/too immature to be a spiritual mentor of any kind. Time to expand your circle of Christian friends.

I totally agree. He believes this places his character and integrity above mine automatically. It's not based on experience or insight, but pure doctrine. As much as I want to respect other people's beliefs, I can't respect that.

I've been to a barbeque where I suddenly found myself in a room with four YECs. This included the well-respected work friend who invited me. Most of them perceived me as an enemy after I gave them my open-minded position on things.

Now I see them somethings in other congregations. I can't avoid them forever, but I really want to avoid this guy. I have absolutely no idea how to combat this.

Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:

quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Highfive: Anyone who is going to scream at you for having a healthy amount of doubt/openness to living in "shades of gray" rather than reducing every issue to "Christian right versus damnation wrong," and for doubting your Christianity because you're at least open to the theory of evolution is too ignorant/too immature to be a spiritual mentor of any kind. Time to expand your circle of Christian friends.
I totally agree. He believes this places his character and integrity above mine automatically. It's not based on experience or insight, but pure doctrine. As much as I want to respect other people's beliefs, I can't respect that.

I've been to a barbeque where I suddenly found myself in a room with four YECs. This included the well-respected work friend who invited me. Most of them perceived me as an enemy after I gave them my open-minded position on things.

Now I see them sometimes in other congregations. It's like watching a recently-acquitted paedophile. I can't avoid them forever, but I really want to avoid this guy. I have absolutely no idea how to combat this.

Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :

somethings = sometimes

Posted by OliviaG (# 9881) on :

The fact that a "client" expects a contractor to become a believer suggests to me that this relationship isn't that of a client-contractor. I mean, really, do the people at Saatchi & Saatchi choose their pain reliever based on whose account they're working on at the time? A freelancer who felt s/he had to wholeheartedly believe in every project would go nuts.

If this is more of a mentorship or networking relationship, the question needs to be asked: How useful is this person really? To get his potential future help has already cost you business, and you've also noticed he overpromises and underdelivers.

And honestly, it doesn't sound like your business is anywhere near the point of sector exclusivity. It's not like you're doing cybersecurity for Visa and subcontracting for MasterCard at the same time. OliviaG

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