Thread: I Won't Dance, Don't Ask Me Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 
Any ecclesiastical hoofers out there?

Focussing on another irregular, unscriptable, unliturgical and potentially corybantic form of worship, this is a follow-on from the thread on glossolalia.

I love the idea of dancing in worship, and if it is legitimate to compile wish-lists for Heaven, I would like to put in a request for the grace, co-ordination and lack of self-consciousness to…..”dance like David danced”, as a praise song puts it?

Well, maybe just a little more circumspectly, though his particular failings as a dancer might not be a problem in Heaven.

The trouble with worship dance as a performance on a platform is that there are, I suspect, a number of insensitive and unspiritual Christians like me, for whom the response to a young woman writhing in a leotard is not, “What a stunning evocation of the spirit striving after the ineffable!”, but, “What great legs!”

The trouble with dance in congregational worship is that try as we might to mind our own business, concentrate on our own experience and let others do what they like, the physical antics of our fellow-worshippers can be unavoidably distracting and even rebarbative.

I was once in a meeting in which a woman bowled over a small child while swanning around in a terpsichorean trance without even noticing what she had done.

This raises again the issue of differences between what is appropriate for private and corporate worship, and also Paul’s words that everything be done “decently and in order” which, no matter how the admonition is relativised in terms of personal taste and cultural contextualisation, must mean something.

Is Lewis’s famous decription of “a Greek Orthodox mass” at all helpful here?: “Some stood, some knelt, some sat, some walked; one crawled about the floor like a caterpillar [prostration?]. And the beauty of it was that nobody took the slightest knowledge of what anyone else was doing”.
 

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Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :
 
I'm one of very small number of ship dancers. There was an article in the Church Times a couple of months ago which describes some of the dance forms that you might come across in church. It mentions my dance form which is circle dance.

I find dance as a performance a real problem as it is usually done very, very badly by people who have no dance training, musicality or knowledge of choreography. They may be responding to the spirit but until they get the training to allow the spirit to get past the ego please will they do it in private .

Dance, for me is embodied prayer. When I have led dance in a congregational setting it has been with the whole congregation taking part. Not everyone will be on their feet moving; I adapt the dance for those who want to sit and take part as well.

Simple choregraphies of perhaps only 4 or 8 steps, which are repeated through a piece of music are a bit like the Jesus Prayer but in steps rather than words.

So participation rather than performance for me.

[ 07. June 2012, 06:20: Message edited by: Poppy ]
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

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Kaplan Corday: I love the idea of dancing in worship, and if it is legitimate to compile wish-lists for Heaven, I would like to put in a request for the grace, co-ordination and lack of self-consciousness to…..”dance like David danced”, as a praise song puts it?

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I found that a couple of pints normally does that for me
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Any ecclesiastical hoofers out there?

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Yes, I love to dance in worship but I only do it when I'm alone.


 

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Posted by Edith (# 16978) on :
 
I've never seen it in the UK but when I was a VSO in Uganda, Mass at the village church used to last at least two and a half hours. It included amazing drumming and all the congregation dancing. It was certainly not a performance, but everyone from small children to the very old joined in. I was far too inhibited, but my students told me not to worry, they knew I was English and I was therefore excused. And anyway, they said, I could not dance properly as my bottom was too small.
 

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Posted by catthefat (# 8586) on :
 
If you are distracted by beautiful dancers you are lucky.
The only ones I have ever seen were grossly overweight, with unshaven legs and armpits,out of time and swathed in sheets. Or maybe it was shrouds.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
I guess you could always close your eyes in deep prayer and devotion if you don't like what you see.

There appear to be different types of dancers discussed here - those who wish to break out into spontaneous dance, rather like those who raise their hands in the air and wave them about. But there are also dancers who practise their moves to dance to pre-ordered choreography, dancing a set piece rather like a choir who regularly practise their anthems. I guess some people prefer one over the other, but it does help to know which sort we are talking about.
 

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Posted by Mockingale (# 16599) on :
 
I respect people with their different tastes and modes of expression of God's love, but the moment I see interpretive dance at a Eucharist, I'm out.
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
lycra, ahhhrrrgh my eyes
 

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Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
I need to confess that I am a modern dance aficionado and attend between 10 and 20 performances a year. I am accustomed to experimental techniques built on hundreds of hours of rehearsal. This cripples me in terms of being able to bear most liturgical dance, the choreography of which usually shares the double disadvantage of being not-yet-classical but still dreadfully out of date. I have seen some exceptions to the rule, such as the labyrinth-focussed compline at Vancouver's Christ Church Cathedral and the back-and-forth shuffle of Ethiopian Orthodox services, but I count these as exceptions and will now generally strive to avoid liturgical dance.

Sometimes I wonder if there be a cultural divide here, as I know many people who are great fans of liturgical dance, and perhaps we're at a transitional period in being able to appreciate such things. I'm willing to tune in again in a few years to see if things have changed.
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Can I just chip in here that the use of coloured flags in worship is an abomination?
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

The trouble with worship dance as a performance on a platform is that there are, I suspect, a number of insensitive and unspiritual Christians like me, for whom the response to a young woman writhing in a leotard is not, “What a stunning evocation of the spirit striving after the ineffable!”, but, “What great legs!”

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Every Church in South Bristol displays one of these.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Can I just chip in here that the use of coloured flags in worship is an abomination?

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quote:

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Originally posted by catthefat:
If you are distracted by beautiful dancers you are lucky.
The only ones I have ever seen were grossly overweight, with unshaven legs and armpits,out of time and swathed in sheets. Or maybe it was shrouds.

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Not true

A bishop of my acquaintance went to seminary with a woman who would become one of the first women ordained in TEC. The woman in question liked to do liturgical dance. She was apparently very buxom in her youth. Her liturgical dancing very much distracted her male classmates. Did I mention she was also a nun? 40 years later, I could still hear a tinge of guilt in his voice.
 

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Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
In the US Comedy Central has the Steven Colbert (pronounced the French way). Steven is a comedian that actually mocks the Republican party's position as if he were conservative himself. Steven is an active Roman Catholic--he appeared with ash on his forehead on Ash Wednesday. He also teaches in his parish's DCC program. A couple of years ago he did the King of Glory liturgical dance. \

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oASYa-Wkroc.

I have to say it is not all that good. However, many years ago I remember watching a short film called the Dancing Prophet. It was the story of a African American Ballet Dancer who went to to the inner city of New York to teach young kids how to dance. He did a liturgical dance at the end of the film that was very stunning. Wish I could find a copy of it somewhere.

People forget David danced before the altar of God and was not struck down.

I am not a good dancer myself, but I have no objection to someone offering his/her talent to the Lord in worship--assuming they are good dancers--that is.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
In Colbert's case, it was at least intentionally not-good. And therefore hilarious.
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Is 'wanking before the Lord' or 'liturgical wanking' permitted?

I'll get me coat...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Can I just chip in here that the use of coloured flags in worship is an abomination?

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quote:

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Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Can I just chip in here that the use of coloured flags in worship is an abomination?

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Doubly so when they are national flags - which have all sorts of unhelpful connotations.

On the topic of dancing; both the large australian church and the flagship Elim church in London regularly feature dancers who dance for the entire time of worship on either side of the stage. They tend to deliberately pick fairly attractive young women - and watching them gyrate is definitely not conducive to any sort of spiritual moment.

It reminds me about something I heard an Episcopalian priest who worked with addicts say; about how as humans we have a tendancy to confuse our appetites. Actively encouraging that process seems to be a very bad thing.

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quote:

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Originally posted by chris stiles:
On the topic of dancing; both the large australian church and the flagship Elim church in London regularly feature dancers who dance for the entire time of worship on either side of the stage.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
nauseous.

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Pedantry alert.

Nauseated.

A gastroenterologist (so it is straight from the horse's mouth) once told me that nauseous means causing nausea and nauseated means experiencinging nausea.
 

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Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 
I havr been present at one of those times when the whole congregation is expected to dance - and been the only one who didn't. I felt very uncomfortable.

The only dancing I have seen in church that moved me was a small chorister spontaneously dancing down the aisle of the Cathedral at the end of a Eucharist many years ago.

And yes, his name was David
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:

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Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
nauseous.

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Pedantry alert.

Nauseated.

A gastroenterologist (so it is straight from the horse's mouth) once told me that nauseous means causing nausea and nauseated means experiencinging nausea.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pyx_e:

LOL at me getting involved in grammar.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:

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Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
nauseous.

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Pedantry alert.

Nauseated.

A gastroenterologist (so it is straight from the horse's mouth) once told me that nauseous means causing nausea and nauseated means experiencinging nausea.

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quote:

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NAUSEA 1. causing nausea or disgust : nauseating
2. affected with nausea or disgust.
Those who insist that nauseous can properly be used only in sense 1 and that in sense 2 it is an error for nauseated are mistaken...

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quote:

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Originally posted by chris stiles:
...

On the topic of dancing; both the large australian church and the flagship Elim church in London regularly feature dancers who dance for the entire time of worship on either side of the stage. They tend to deliberately pick fairly attractive young women - and watching them gyrate is definitely not conducive to any sort of spiritual moment.

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Really? How shocking. Tell me, can you point me to any videos of these appalling practices, so that I can see for myself just how, ahem, unconducive to spiritual moments they are?

Certainly sounds like it beats the kind of liturgical dance to which I was exposed in the 80s, and which put me off the whole idea forever (except when practiced by Dervishes, whose dancing is rather wonderful). Ladies of a certain age in leotards and leggings, wafting long scarves in approximate time to a bad rendition* of Pachelbel's Canon....

(*and most renditions of poor old Pachelbel's Canon are bad)
 

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Posted by Hugal (# 2734) on :
 
Finally got to a place with a good connection. Firstly let's get this out of the way. I am a director of the Christian Dance Fellowship of Britain and the ballroom network coordinator for the International Christian Dance Fellowship.
At my church we encourage free dance worship at the back of the church where there is room. Everyone knows this is happening and takes it into account. We only dance when the kids are out to avoid accidents. People can choose to watch or not. I encourage anyone to dance at the back. The level of skill is not relevent. We encourage everyone to sing even if they have a very distant relationship with the tune. Anyone up front is there to perform and has to be of a similar level to a member of the worship band or choir.
Flags I see as an extension of my hand and movement. The colours have meaning if you want to see it.
I teach ballroom dance. I also lead workshops in worship dance and using ballroom dance in worship. I like to explore different types of dance as well and recently organised and co-choreographed a Flashmob for the Pentecost Arts Festival here in London.
I do agree that we, as dancers, need to do it well. This does not mean you have to be Nijinsky but at least know what you are doing.
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:

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Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
nauseous.

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Pedantry alert.

Nauseated.

A gastroenterologist (so it is straight from the horse's mouth) once told me that nauseous means causing nausea and nauseated means experiencinging nausea.

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According to Merriam Webster

quote:

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NAUSEA 1. causing nausea or disgust : nauseating
2. affected with nausea or disgust.
Those who insist that nauseous can properly be used only in sense 1 and that in sense 2 it is an error for nauseated are mistaken...

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I'll listen to your gastroenterologist on medical matters, but use a dictionary for common usage.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hugal:
I encourage anyone to dance at the back. The level of skill is not relevent. We encourage everyone to sing even if they have a very distant relationship with the tune. Anyone up front is there to perform and has to be of a similar level to a member of the worship band or choir.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pyx_e:

quote:

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Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
nauseous.

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Pedantry alert.

Nauseated.

A gastroenterologist (so it is straight from the horse's mouth) once told me that nauseous means causing nausea and nauseated means experiencinging nausea.

---

According to Merriam Webster

quote:

---

NAUSEA 1. causing nausea or disgust : nauseating
2. affected with nausea or disgust.
Those who insist that nauseous can properly be used only in sense 1 and that in sense 2 it is an error for nauseated are mistaken...

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I'll listen to your gastroenterologist on medical matters, but use a dictionary for common usage.

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Feck me.

Do I win a prize?

I've never been right on a grammar question before, the END may be about to happen. Can I apply for my stage one grammar nazi badge?

AtB, Pyx_e.

meh I was only taking a punt.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
...I would like to put in a request for the grace, co-ordination and lack of self-consciousness to…..”dance like David danced”, as a praise song puts it?

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To "dance as David danced" - if one uses a certain hermeneutic applied to other aspects of church tradition - means that all liturgical dancers must be:

• Male
• More than thirty years old
• Either lightly dressed in linen, or not at all (thanks to Chorister for the felicitous mention of "bobbing")

quote:

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Originally posted by Leaf:
If you dance thusly and you're married, your wife might not think much of the entire display and chew you out.

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I'll just follow the Davidian precedent by imprisoning her, never touching her again, and acquiring replacements.

That's right, she doesnt read SoF.
 

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Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 
Davidian? What was I thinking?

Davidic, though the Shorter Oxford also has Davidical.

Actually, I would forgive her anything, even mocking my dancing, because she has just arrived home and presented me with the Holy Grail of coeliacs - gluten-free black jellybeans which she discovered in a supermarket!
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
I was brought up in South Africa and dancing was normal during most hymns. 99% of services ended with a procession round the outside of the building, which was actually a dance round the building.

It was wonderful.

I must dig out the photos.


 

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Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on :
 
I recently tried out the Zimbabwean custom of everybody shaking hands with everyody else whilst singing a hymn after the service.

Not outside the building but inside due to prevailing weather conditions.

It was gloriously chaotic. But everyone enjoyed it.
 

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Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
In Ghana, dancing and drumming were associated with paganism, and the traditional missionary churches banned both in worship. The post-independent indigenous pentecostal churches incorporated such ethnic forms, which proved attractive to the young, especially. Eventually the established churches had to yield, although older members deliberately crossed their arms when coming forward with their offering to protest against such syncretic practices. (Dancing is usually associated with collections).
Recently the pagans have been protesting that Christians have been drumming in their churches when the traditional religion demands they be silent.
As far as the UK is concerned, it seems to me that the natives find it difficult to dance unselfconsciously in church and is better consigned to the category of No Sex Please, We're British!
 

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Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
There was a burst of that sort of thing about thirty years ago. It seemed to do something important for those that did it, but was embarrassing for everyone else. Best done in private or at the back.

Maybe it's just the circles I move in, but it seems to have more or less died out again. But then, I don't get coloured flags either.
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
I don't get smoking handbags and the like either. But I'm glad my type of church, which has traditionally been extremely verbally oriented, has access to the ideas of using visual cues, colours and movement in worship - which, of course, certain styles have had all along.
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
I was brought up in South Africa and dancing was normal during most hymns. 99% of services ended with a procession round the outside of the building, which was actually a dance round the building.

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