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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Non-conformism
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drnick
Shipmate
# 16065
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Posted
I've been reading a couple of books lately (one tracing the history of the traditions which became the United Reformed Church, the other about religion in 19th century Welsh literature) which have made me think particularly about what is means to be non-conformist. I've also heard more than one sermon this year on the Great Ejectment of 1662.
I would tend to think of the term 'non-conformist' as a positive thing. It has connotations of challenging power and ways of thinking, of taking individual conscience seriously and refusing to accept authority when it contradicts this. I quite like the idea of being slightly outside the mainstream.
But what do you think? Does the term for you have any positive or negative connotations?
Does it have any meaning outside the UK, and particularly in countries without an established church? Do you think it is still a useful idea, or has its time been and gone? Would you describe yourself or your tradition as non-conformist?
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"Christians like you are why God invented lions" Pagan Wanderer Lu.
Posts: 58 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Dec 2010
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by drnick:
Would you describe yourself or your tradition as non-conformist?
Sure would. We do "stroppy" as a matter of principle, are suspicious of all human authorities and are generally awkward. But we're lovely, if you like that sort of thing. Sort of stroppily kind, at least in my neck of the woods. Can't speak for the others you know. They'd have my guts for garters if I tried.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
You appear to be confusing Nonconformity (refusal to conform to an established church) with the more general concept of nonconformity.
It was and is possible to be a traditional, conservative, legalistic and authoritarian Nonconformist.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It was and is possible to be a traditional, conservative, legalistic and authoritarian Nonconformist.
Sure, But they aren't much fun, generally. Whereas my lot....
I could tell you some stories ...
[ 07. June 2012, 20:11: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Actually, drnick, Kaplan Corday's post does prompt me to get more serious.
There are undoubtedly Nonconformists of the "traditional, conservative, legalistic and authoritarian" form. Another nonconformist of my acquaintance has described them as being "about as open as Fort Knox". Such folks can gravitate to nonconformist church communities and help produce a toxic environment within which (to quote another nonconformist friend) "everything is forbidden, unless it is compulsory".
Personally, I think they are folks who have lost their way. The essence of nonconformism is Dissent on grounds of conscience. Once you have embraced that principle, taken it into yourself as a freedom value, it seems very silly to me to seek to control the consciences and faith of others in accordance with the light of your own understanding. But this happens.
Nonconformism is not, however, a licence for unbridled nonsense. We're seeking "not to be conformed to this world", rather to be "transformed by the renewal of our minds" and "conformed to the likeness of Christ".
At its best, nonconformism produces a genuinely open environment for growth in Christ-likeness as a result of personal conviction, worked out in community. At its worst, it can produce a scary, totalitarian spiritual prison, ruled by control-freaks.
I've seen both types.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
Didn't we have a shipmate whose screen name was "Never Conforming"? I quite liked that. (If she's still around but changed her name, someone please let me know!)
In the context of the Ship, I will say that I twitch whenever I see the phrase, because of the particular way it is used by English shipmates. In my (big) country, we're all "non-conformist" (bozos) on this bus, because we don't have a state-sponsored religion (thanks be to God).
So, to your question, no, it doesn't really mean anything in a place that doesn't have an established religion. It figures as part of our national origin story, of course, but increasingly not with those words.
There are a lot of times when a question/topic could be opened upside outside Little England by a slightly different choice of words ![[Biased]](wink.gif) .
(Somewhat tangential story time. The last time we elected a Bishop hereabouts, one of the candidates' faith journeys had taken him through the Reformed Church in America fka the Dutch Reformed (summary: very, very Calvinist). A friend, who had been raised Roman Catholic but who knew that I had been in the RCA for a while myself, called me up because he was curious about that after meeting the candidate at the dog-and-pony shows, erm, "meet and greet the candidate" forums. But I couldn't hear the capital letter in his question.
Him: "Well, he comes from your tradition."
Me: "Which one?"
Him: "The Reformed tradition."
Me: (non-plussed) "But they're *all* reformed.")
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
At its best, nonconformism produces a genuinely open environment for growth in Christ-likeness as a result of personal conviction, worked out in community.
But how long will it stay like this, before it degenerates into...
quote:
At its worst, it can produce a scary, totalitarian spiritual prison, ruled by control-freaks.
I've seen both types.
That's why I'm not non-conformist - but I would say that, wouldn't I?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I am a non-conformist to the soles of my boots. If the crowd go one way I say "why?".
It's not an easy way to be, and I didn't choose it. I think it's part of the ADHD.
By denomination I'm a Methodist - and there is nothing they do/believe that I conform to!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
At its worst, it can produce a scary, totalitarian spiritual prison, ruled by control-freaks.
I've seen both types.
That's why I'm not non-conformist - but I would say that, wouldn't I?
Though, of course, that's a potential problem with other traditions as well. I don't think an episcopal aristocracy is any more immune to totalitarian control freaks than a Church Meeting. The particular nature of the spiritual prison and control freakery demonstrated might be different, but neither episcopal nor congregational (or any other forms of church government) are perfect.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Does it have any meaning outside the UK, and particularly in countries without an established church?
I'm Canadian, and I think I first encountered the phrase "Non-conformism", as a religious term, in a Victorian literature class, around 1988 or so. Other than that, and possibly similar academic contexts, I don't know that I've ever heard it used in Canada.
The professor of that class was of Mennonite stock, from Pennsylvania, and at one point told us that she was proud of her "Non-conformist" background. As I recall, I took some issue with her applying the phrase to Mennonites in the USA, but she was quite adamant about claiming the term. I suppose that Mennonites in the UK, such as they are, would be categorized as Non-conformist.
A few years ago, I met a British guy in Korea who had been involved with an evangelical church back home. When I tried out the phrase "Non-conformist" on him, he expressed total unfamiliarity with it. (No slight against him, since I'm ignorant of about 80% of the theolocial terms that get used on the Ship, and likely wouldn't have much grasp of "Non-conformism" if I hadn't taken that university class.)
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I usually don't rate my beliefs or opinions on a conformist / non-conformist axis. I have them, and if many people agree with them then swell, and if they don't I can live with that.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
Wikipedia article on Non-conformism
Check it out - I was curious to know if I actually was, by definition, "non-conformist" - but it turns out that the term seems to only apply to non-anglican protestantism.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
In the context of the Ship, I will say that I twitch whenever I see the phrase, because of the particular way it is used by English shipmates. In my (big) country, we're all "non-conformist" (bozos) on this bus, because we don't have a state-sponsored religion (thanks be to God).
So, to your question, no, it doesn't really mean anything in a place that doesn't have an established religion. It figures as part of our national origin story, of course, but increasingly not with those words.
There are a lot of times when a question/topic could be opened upside outside Little England by a slightly different choice of words .
Yes, you're a real nonconformist. As the italicised bit (mine that) makes clear. You even make critical observations about the validity of the questions.
The Pilgrim Fathers were, of course, Puritan English Dissenters, one of the reasons, but not the only one, for the strong Independence traditions in the US, as famously articulated here.
There is no irony in the historical fact that the descendants of English nonconformist settlers and others of similar ilk turned round to face the government of the English and, in effect, said "up yours, sunshine".
There is, however, to my eyes, considerable irony to be found in the conformity of the Religious Right in the US to a privatised understanding of faith. There is an awful lot of agenda-parroting going on there, which seems to me to go against the grain of independence of heart and mind which took the Pilgrim Fathers out of the UK in the first place.
Which I guess gives some sort of an answer to Mark Betts' observation. Nonconformism operates primarily in a local church setting. The checks against control-freak leadership work fine if congregational members remember their roots. Church leaders who turn out to be control freaks get confronted by the independent-minded members of the local congo who remind them that Jesus said "not so among you. No lording over us, thank you very much. Kindly get off your high horse. Submitted in Love". There is scope for ongoing declarations of independence. We row and argue our way to unity.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Our church (founded 1686) is "old dissent" and this truly Nonconformist. However it has undergone the "routinisation" predicted of all organisations over time and is now nothing like as nonconformist (in the more general sense of the word) as it should be.
Many British Nonconformist denominations deliberately made themselves "respectable" in the late 1800s, in hot competition with the Anglicans who were generally higher up the social scale.
I think that Jesus would wish all Christians to be "nonconformist" in the sense that we are continually questioning cultural values rather than accepting them blindly. Many years ago I went to a Bible study hosted by US Fundamentalists, the theme was "total separation from the world" and everyone present agreed that they had done that since they did not smoke, drink or have extra-marital sex and did their best to live in an exclusively Christian ghetto (not easy, as this was in Portugal). However they held deep assumptions about (say) politics and economics which they had never even considered thinking about.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
...I think that Jesus would wish all Christians to be "nonconformist" in the sense that we are continually questioning cultural values rather than accepting them blindly...
Indeed. And, looking back to kaplan corday's post further up the thread , it is as possible to be nonconformist in this sense within the CofE as it is to be rigid, authoritarian etc in the 'Nonconformist' denominations.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
One could argue that Jesus only had one non-conformist among his disciples.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Yeah, that'll be Peter - who denied the Lord but was at least with him to the end, unlike all those other 'conformist' disciples who ran away.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by drnick:
I would tend to think of the term 'non-conformist' as a positive thing. It has connotations of challenging power and ways of thinking, of taking individual conscience seriously and refusing to accept authority when it contradicts this. I quite like the idea of being slightly outside the mainstream.
But what do you think? Does the term for you have any positive or negative connotations?
It clearly has negative connotations for some.
Being Orthodox, I do not belong to any of the churches descended from those historically labelled "Non-Conformist". However, from time to time, an Anglican friend of mine jokingly teases me about being non-conformist, which, technically, I suppose I am, not belonging to the established church either.
I mentioned this in passing on one occasion during a lighthearted conversation with an Orthodox friend, who very quickly shot me down by stating very firmly, 'I don't want to discuss politics'.
I didn't understand the reaction then and I don't now. The awkward silence that followed meant that I asked no questions, deciding instead to change to subject.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
One could argue that Jesus only had one non-conformist among his disciples.
Go on then ...
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I've just slapped a fiver on Judas with Betfred.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
One could argue that Jesus only had one non-conformist among his disciples.
How many Nonconformists did he have?
We're in danger of debating the meaning of a word, which is awkward when that word has a number of meanings, varying, as ever, by the context in which it is used.
Non-conformism means different things in society as a whole, within a workplace and within a faith, denomination or congregation. Capitalisation and, I suspect, the hyphen make a difference too! I don't conform to the 'norm' of my church, which makes me a non-conformist but I'm a member of the CofE so I'm not a Nonconformist. Further to all this I was baptised in the RCC, so in becoming a member of the CofE I don't conform to that either, although whether that can be taken to be Nonconformism I doubt.
With the best will in the world debating the meaning of terms doesn't often help. OK, examine them, but don't worry them and yourself down a blind alley when there are matters of greater importance to deal with.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I've just slapped a fiver on Judas with Betfred.
Anyone betting on Judas in those days would have had inside information. My money's on Thomas.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
[Thomas is the one I'd have chosen. I thought Mark was more likely to choose Judas.]
Sioni Sais
I think you're right if all one is trying to do is define the meaning of the word. I think nonconformism within the churches is more a cultural thing - a kind of faith-flavour.
Perhaps our abiding characteristic as people within the church is the way we struggle with obedience?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
[Thomas is the one I'd have chosen. I thought Mark was more likely to choose Judas.]
No, I'm sitting this one out!
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Such a broad term. What springs to mind for me is that non-conformists first sprang up, in a powerful way, with Cromwell's bunch - the strict Puritans, who wished to dispense with Bishops among other established Church things. And ended up cutting off a king's head.
Non-conformism also went through it's more liberal phase - I think - in the 1700's? Denominations splitting off to accommodate less traditional credal interpretations of scripture eg, Unitarianism, Quakerism, Shakers, certain forms of anabaptism - the fertile applcation of applying individual conscience to religion.
Then 'enthusiasm' or a more fundamental evangelicalism came in, in the 1800's. Scriptural literalism, also, comes into its own. Holiness movements, post-Weslyan Methodism, strict Presbyterianism. Many of these non-conformisms had in common a certain uniformity: rejection of Anglican liberal theology, a return - as they perceived it - to scriptural primacy over church tradition, and certain features of iconaclasm, and rejection of priestly caste as expressed by the orthodox Churches - mediation by the saints and Mary, relics, prayer for the dead etc.
Currently, non-conformism seems much more complex. The terms seem hugely blurred. I don't think eg, that, in religious terms, it really means people who are simply contrarians, as in, the minister says this and I disagree; the minister says that and I disagree. To me, that would seem to go against the movement and authenticity of real non-conformism! Because, presumably, the ministers of non-conformist churches ought to be 'non-conformist' themselves. Non-conformism surely defines a specific and formulaic approach to religion, not merely the ability to say 'I don't agree'!
Non-conformism is not contrarianism.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
Didn't we have a shipmate whose screen name was "Never Conforming"? I quite liked that. (If she's still around but changed her name, someone please let me know!)
Sadly, Never Conforming hasn't posted for many years.
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
We're in danger of debating the meaning of a word, which is awkward when that word has a number of meanings, varying, as ever, by the context in which it is used.
Yes, I think it's kind of sketchy to draw linkages between Non-conformism, meaning a particular British religious classification, and non-conformism, meaning unadapted to social strictures.
It's a little like discussing the Catholicism of the RCC, and then trying to segue that into a discussion about the catholicism of a guy who likes to read books about anthropology, gardening, and Tanzanian politics.
That said, the Unitarian Universalists have long taken some pretty liberal license with the meaning of "Unitarian", adding neo-definitions that go well beyond the original meaning of the unity of the godhead, eg. unity of man, "you are the U in Unitarian" etc. But that's a little less awkward, I guess, since they're basically the only people maintaining "ownership" of the word, and are therefore free to poeticize it if they so choose.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
In the context of the Ship, I will say that I twitch whenever I see the phrase, because of the particular way it is used by English shipmates. In my (big) country, we're all "non-conformist" (bozos) on this bus, because we don't have a state-sponsored religion (thanks be to God).
So, to your question, no, it doesn't really mean anything in a place that doesn't have an established religion. It figures as part of our national origin story, of course, but increasingly not with those words.
There are a lot of times when a question/topic could be opened upside outside Little England by a slightly different choice of words .
Yes, you're a real nonconformist. As the italicised bit (mine that) makes clear. You even make critical observations about the validity of the questions.
The Pilgrim Fathers were, of course, Puritan English Dissenters, one of the reasons, but not the only one, for the strong Independence traditions in the US, as famously articulated here.
There is no irony in the historical fact that the descendants of English nonconformist settlers and others of similar ilk turned round to face the government of the English and, in effect, said "up yours, sunshine".
Mother England wasn't being kind to most of the Anglicans in the American colonies, nor was the church hierarchy especially (the first we get taught in history class, the second in confirmation class ).
Re the latter, I really wish that the C of E as a whole would recognize that TEC is a non-established, tiny minority church in the US and has its own very different system of governance. The general way we do things is really not much different from my mother's Presbyterian church although we have different names for the differing governing bodies. This is entirely due to 1776/1789 And All That.
quote:
There is, however, to my eyes, considerable irony to be found in the conformity of the Religious Right in the US to a privatised understanding of faith. There is an awful lot of agenda-parroting going on there, which seems to me to go against the grain of independence of heart and mind which took the Pilgrim Fathers out of the UK in the first place.
Oh, don't get me started about the new American "civic religion". I quite agree with you that a number of people seem to not have read and understood their history books. quote:
Which I guess gives some sort of an answer to Mark Betts' observation. Nonconformism operates primarily in a local church setting. The checks against control-freak leadership work fine if congregational members remember their roots. Church leaders who turn out to be control freaks get confronted by the independent-minded members of the local congo who remind them that Jesus said "not so among you. No lording over us, thank you very much. Kindly get off your high horse. Submitted in Love". There is scope for ongoing declarations of independence. We row and argue our way to unity.
In the US that kind of situation often results in a church split of some kind. I presume you've heard the joke about the guy with two shacks on the desert island?
I will note that if the control freak is in some sort of central office but is not in a position to randomly replace your clergy, your local congregation can probably keep carrying on as usual.
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
In the US that kind of situation often results in a church split of some kind. I presume you've heard the joke about the guy with two shacks on the desert island?
Yes indeed. We're good at doing the splits. We get so much practice. The uncompromising don't do compromise very well. Paul and Barnabas, anyone?
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
I will note that if the control freak is in some sort of central office but is not in a position to randomly replace your clergy, your local congregation can probably keep carrying on as usual.
Yes. And if they split, then they have no-one to blame but themselves. Which is a sort of comfort.
Actually, both points do hint at something which may be embedded in nonconformist culture. Sometimes strengths are weaknesses too.
The refusal to back down is often very praiseworthy. I'm thinking of the marvelous John Proctor in Miller's "The Crucible".
"I will not sign"
[short version of further pleading]"Why not?"
"BECAUSE IT IS MY NAME"
At its best, the nonconformist culture recognises the link between personal integrity and personal conscience. Where there are differences of outlook and vision, it is indeed better to agree to differ and continue in fellowship, nevertheless. But that is a hard thing to sustain if the rubbing edges keep rubbing.
Given the general nonconformist belief in local congregations, and the general "extended family" model for church governance, particularly in the independent churches, splits may be a better solution. I've seen them done relatively amicably. They don't have to destroy goodwill.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
The term'non-conformist' is used in a particular religious context to refer to those who refused for various reasons to adhere to the Established Church of England.The UK includes also Scotland where the Established Church of England is certainly not the church 'established by law'.
Members of the 'National Church of Scotland' would in no way consider themselves to be 'non-conformist'.There are of course many different denominations,sects,splinter groups amongst Presbyterians including the 'non-conformist' Scottish episcopal church,but the term 'non-conformist' would not be used and would only be understood by those who are au fait with the religious history of the English part of the United Kingdom.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Non-Conformist originates with those who were ejected from the Church of England for refusing to comply with the act of Uniformity in 1662.
Any Anglican who today does not use the Book of Common Prayer would be outside the terms of the act.
Jengie
[ 09. June 2012, 12:04: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Non-Conformist originates with those who were ejected from the Church of England for refusing to comply with the act of Uniformity in 1662.
Any Anglican who today does not use the Book of Common Prayer would be outside the terms of the act.
Jengie
On that basis many Anglicans must be Non-Conformists, at least some of the time, unless the law was amended when the ASB was introduced.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
I presume you've heard the joke about the guy with two shacks on the desert island?
There's a similar one about two guys with five shacks on their island, but I can't remember the exact and intricate details.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Non-Conformist originates with those who were ejected from the Church of England for refusing to comply with the act of Uniformity in 1662.
Any Anglican who today does not use the Book of Common Prayer would be outside the terms of the act.
Jengie
On that basis many Anglicans must be Non-Conformists, at least some of the time, unless the law was amended when the ASB was introduced.
I am not quite sure what the status is, some of it was turned off in 1680, but there are still complexities around what is legal in the CofE worship.
It is also useful to remind Anglicans that if the law came into force today that forced out Nonconformists most of them would have to leave as well.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by drnick:
But what do you think? Does the term for you have any positive or negative connotations?
In a church context, entirely positive connotations. its a pity that so many of those groups have declined so much. The world might be a better place with more Methodists in it.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
That's why I'm not non-conformist - but I would say that, wouldn't I?
Except you are exactly that in English church terms because you are a member of a church other than your Anglican parish church. You have chosen not to be conformed to the established religion and to select your own church.
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
I presume you've heard the joke about the guy with two shacks on the desert island?
There's a similar one about two guys with five shacks on their island, but I can't remember the exact and intricate details.
As in Joke One, each one builds a church to go to and a church not to go to - but then they decide to co-operate and build a church not to go to together.
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
Re the latter, I really wish that the C of E as a whole would recognize that TEC is a non-established, tiny minority church in the US and has its own very different system of governance. The general way we do things is really not much different from my mother's Presbyterian church although we have different names for the differing governing bodies.
Yet your bishops have more control over parish churches than our CofE ones do. Ours are in many ways self-governing in practice, if not always on paper. Most don't pay much attention to bishops at all other than as an excuse to have a party every few years when they visit.
Establishment doesn't really affect what goes on inside CofE churches at all. its more a sort of shell round them, that people outside them see. Most of the members of the churches have no contact with it. That's maybe one reason why being an archbishop is such an impossible job. They more or less permanently inhabit that shell and have all sorts of contradictory demands made on them from both inside it and outside it that whatever they so or say most people will object to it.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by drnick:
But what do you think? Does the term for you have any positive or negative connotations?
In a church context, entirely positive connotations. its a pity that so many of those groups have declined so much. The world might be a better place with more Methodists in it.
...
No might about it. In fact, Anglican as I am, I've often thought that if I had to plan a world where you could only have one kind of everything, all religion would be Methodist. (And all the shops would be the Co-op, and all politicians would be Shirley Williams- and yes, I do know she's an RC!)
[ 09. June 2012, 15:26: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
I presume you've heard the joke about the guy with two shacks on the desert island?
There's a similar one about two guys with five shacks on their island, but I can't remember the exact and intricate details.
Reminds me of the (almost certainly apocryphal)
comment attributed to Stalin: "Two Trots, three factions".
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Only three? Just not trying ...
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
I've often thought that if I had to plan a world where you could only have one kind of everything, all religion would be Methodist
I'm one; it's hell and doesn't work, yet somehow holds a romantic attraction based perhaps on what it could be, or once (really, or in imagination) was.
quote:
Methodists are electrical, or so I've been informed,
John Wesley got plugged into a circuit - he was strangely warmed.
But things are cooling down now, I think it's plain to see -
why when God so loved the world, he never sent a co-mit-tee -
Cos that's all...they ever seem to do...
If you aint got Jesus, there's just the de-nomination blues.
[ 09. June 2012, 22:01: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The term 'Nonconformity' (more commonplace than 'Nonconformism') is almost always used in historical contexts. I'm a lifelong British Methodist, and have been involved in ecumenical meetings with the URC, Baptists, etc., but I've never heard it used to describe those churches as they are now. What I've read is that in the late Victorian/Edwardian eras, 'Nonconformity' was replaced by the term 'Free Churches'. But we don't really hear that term now either.
The Nonconformist churches, as historical institutions, have now largely achieved equality with the CofE in many areas of life, and have made common cause with the CofE on many issues, theological and social. Therefore, the concept of 'Nonconformity' doesn't really have much currency today.
Nonconformity might have some currency if these smaller historical churches were still fighting for the disestablishment of the CofE, as they once did, but they've long since given up on that fight; I've never come across any fellow Methodists talking about disestablishment, neither clergy, lay preachers, theologicans nor people in the pews. I'm sure there are some who have opinions about it, but not the extent that they really want to rock the boat. So that's not very 'nonconformist', is it?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
Re the latter, I really wish that the C of E as a whole would recognize that TEC is a non-established, tiny minority church in the US and has its own very different system of governance. The general way we do things is really not much different from my mother's Presbyterian church although we have different names for the differing governing bodies.
Yet your bishops have more control over parish churches than our CofE ones do. Ours are in many ways self-governing in practice, if not always on paper. Most don't pay much attention to bishops at all other than as an excuse to have a party every few years when they visit.
Interesting. In which ways?
My impression is that a financially self-sufficient parish in TEC is very self-governing in practice. If there is some sort of basic difference between it and the bishop, getting confirmations and vocations through could be tough (a former rector of mine has a story along those lines), but that's a special case. quote:
Establishment doesn't really affect what goes on inside CofE churches at all.
Not even "hatch, match, dispatch"? quote:
its more a sort of shell round them, that people outside them see. Most of the members of the churches have no contact with it. That's maybe one reason why being an archbishop is such an impossible job. They more or less permanently inhabit that shell and have all sorts of contradictory demands made on them from both inside it and outside it that whatever they so or say most people will object to it.
Fully agreed, there!
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
quote:
I've often thought that if I had to plan a world where you could only have one kind of everything, all religion would be Methodist
I'm one; it's hell and doesn't work, yet somehow holds a romantic attraction based perhaps on what it could be, or once (really, or in imagination) was.
Yes, some non-Methodists are quite romantic about the Methodist Church, aren't they? It's quite charming, but I must say, things were better for the Methodist Church when the Anglican establishment wasn't quite so approving! A cynic might say that Methodism is only admired nowadays because it's no longer (perceived to be) a threat to anyone or anything.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
There is, however, to my eyes, considerable irony to be found in the conformity of the Religious Right in the US to a privatised understanding of faith. There is an awful lot of agenda-parroting going on there, which seems to me to go against the grain of independence of heart and mind which took the Pilgrim Fathers out of the UK in the first place.
It is important to remember that the Separatist/Congregationalist Pilgrim Fathers might have wanted independence from the established Church of England, but had little or no concept of pluralism or religious liberty.
They set up a de facto theocracy in New England which flogged Baptists and hanged Quakers.
The real reason for the development of religious liberty in America was the unlimited unoccupied space (if you ignored the poor old Native Americans)which made it always possible for genuine pioneers of religious tolerance, such as Roger Williams, to go off and start a new settlement elsewhere
[ 10. June 2012, 09:52: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
They sure did, KC. The danger for nonconformists calling the shots is they also overlook "not so among you".
Piercing the self-righteous camouflage, brings you a truth pithily declared by my father to me, in a verse parody from "the red Flag".
"The working class can kiss my ass
I've got the foreman's job at last".
As Jesus saw and warned, the temptation to "lord" it is very dangerous, particularly when associated with a pernicious "we know better" self-righteousness. It's the meek who inherit the earth. Not much meekness on display when you flog and hang - or burn.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
The designation 'free church' is an interesting one. It seems to be used in several different ways - some URC churches are formally 'Free' churches, some baptists describe themselves as 'free' baptist/evangelical and there is (or was, I'm not sure) a Free Church moderator - who was sometimes seen in public as a 'church leader'.
I'm not entirely clear if the 'free church' is the same as non-conformist, but seems to include all protestant non-Anglicans. Which always seemed odd to me, given the vast variety of opinion within this group, which rarely agree on very much and are very likely to be formed from splits of each other!
As far as I know, there are still appointed 'Free church' chaplains to universities and hospitals.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Interestingly, according to the Free Church Group of Churches together in England and Wales, the Free Church of England is a Free Church. But there must also be a wide spectrum of non-conformist churches which are not represented, given the tendency of some Evangelicals to consider ecumenicalism as a form of treason.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace
My impression is that a financially self-sufficient parish in TEC is very self-governing in practice.
Under certain circumstances, the bishop can take charge of a parish. There was a parish in New Hampshire where the rector and vestry were at loggerheads, and the vestry was violating the canons. The bishop demoted the parish to mission status; this meant that he became the rector, and the priest who had been rector became vicar. The vicar of a mission church has far more power vis-a-vis the vestry than the rector of an ordinary church. Most members of the recalcitrant vestry resigned.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
quote:
I've often thought that if I had to plan a world where you could only have one kind of everything, all religion would be Methodist
I'm one; it's hell and doesn't work, yet somehow holds a romantic attraction based perhaps on what it could be, or once (really, or in imagination) was.
Yes, some non-Methodists are quite romantic about the Methodist Church, aren't they? It's quite charming, but I must say, things were better for the Methodist Church when the Anglican establishment wasn't quite so approving! A cynic might say that Methodism is only admired nowadays because it's no longer (perceived to be) a threat to anyone or anything.
Well, my main experience of Methodism- two or three years as a regular worshipper at West London Mission, including quite a lot of involvement on committees overseeing the Mission's rather extensive social work programme- is perhaps not typical of the Connexion as a whole. It did show me some downsides of Methodist behaviour- certain tendencies to 'wibbling' (that sort of rather general expression of concern that some people do, whirring away in the background of meetings like, and about as effectively as, a faulty air conditioner), to damp handshakes and to an idea that Christianity was essentially about being 'nice'. But I question whether these are unique to Methodism and my overwhelming impression was of a certain basic decency and down to earth intelligence. I think that these qualities are actually and quite rightly, in their own rather undemonstrative way, a threat to quite a lot, both in our churches and in our wider society.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Albertus
I can see that being part of a nice, decent, sensible Methodist or other church is a positive thing, but I'm not sure how it might be seen as a threat to other churches or to society in general.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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