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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Those who are shut out of a "self-serve" culture
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
Earlier this month the bank I use closed its drive-through service. Formerly called motor banking, these are facilities where you can drive up to a window and conduct routine banking business without leaving your car. I don't know how prevalent this is or was outside the U.S.
ATMs accessible from cars remain available.
The closure is part of the bank's long-term strategy to cut costs through automation by encouraging customers to utilize ATMs and web banking instead of tellers. While there haven't been any public announcements of the strategy or timeline, it's clear that the goal is to eliminate the use of human tellers entirely.
This is but one recent example of products and services that are available only to people who are able to interact with technology. With the success of Amazon.com, many books and other niche products once available in stores can now be ordered only via internet. Video rental stores have been replaced by Redbox and Netflix. Some airlines only accept travel bookings via the web. Grocery stores and fast-food chains have been experimenting (unsuccessfully, so far) with replacing checkout workers with automated systems. We now have a number of completely unattended gas stations.
Facebook has succeeded to the point where statistics show that young people are driving less and have less interest in cars because they no longer gather in one place as their sole means of social engagement.
Never mind the Luddite nostalgia. The problem is that there is a sizable (5%? 10%? who knows) minority of people who don't have the intellectual aptitude to figure these things out. These are the people who could never get their VCR to quit blinking ten years ago. People who can, by most other measures, live independently, hold jobs, and engage with society.
As the trend towards automation continues, what will become of these people?
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
It has recently been acknowledge that military drones have been used in the US. Perhaps we could target these people in the interests of more profitable banking institutions. Surely, terrorism is not the only serious threat to our way of life.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Bartolomeo quote:
Never mind the Luddite nostalgia. The problem is that there is a sizable (5%? 10%? who knows) minority of people who don't have the intellectual aptitude to figure these things out. These are the people who could never get their VCR to quit blinking ten years ago. People who can, by most other measures, live independently, hold jobs, and engage with society.
Part of the answer is that some very clever people will make it progessively easier for individuals to use such innovations, thereby reducing the proportion of the excluded.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
As the trend towards automation continues, what will become of these people?
This is difficult. I recognise a problem here but I suppose the way of thinking is very difficult for me to break into.
I run my parish's website and send out the various notices and announcements through Google+. I like to think that I am efficient and thorough, and try to include everything that people might need. I also prepare the music for services. So when, nearing the end Lent, two people anxiously pointed out that I hadn't yet given them the Easter music to learn and I pointed out that it had been on the music page of the website for weeks, imagine my dismay when one was unaware that the website had a music section and the other said, 'Oh, do we have a website now?' (We've had a website for five years).
It's very interesting to see how people use information. I suspect that my aspie tendencies have something to do with my narrow way of dealing with information and organising things. Electronic comminication is best for me because I can integrate everything and find it much easier to work with, plus it's much easier to organise, locate, and share with others. So that's how I ask for things to be sent to me. However, you can be guaranteed that there will be someone who insists on handing me bits of paper with their e-mail address, or feedback on something I've asked them to review for me, or music, or something that I then have to convert into an electronic format, even if it means having to manually input everything myself.
I don't have the mechanism for dealing with bits of paper. If they're lucky enough not to get lost, chances are they'll be forgotten in a pocket and find their way into the wash. If they are truly resilient, they just end up amid all the other crappy bits of paper that people have given to me, then I can never find anything when I need it. I just can't organise paper like that. Yet I beg people to just send me an e-mail - the most straightforward thing in the world - and they screw up their faces as though I've just asked them to write a 10,000-word essay.
So yes, I accept that these people exist but I just can't process them in my head. It's an alien way of thinking to me. Fortunately, as far as church goes, my (slightly technophobic) parish priest makes sure that anyone who falls into that category is looked after with printed service schedules and announcements.
As for the rest of life, I honestly don't know.
[ 11. June 2012, 19:41: Message edited by: Michael Astley ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I live in the hope that people will rebel against the automated voice in greater numbers and seek out human beings. When the local branch of my bank closed down, I changed to another bank. I will wait in a queue rather than use a self service machine.
I'm not a Luddite. I embrace technology and see it as a very valuable additional means of communication, but I draw the line when faced with a screen instead of a person. A screen can't help me, it can't answer my queries without my spending time trawling through a site, and it's likely to freeze just as I've entered my credit card details so that I don't know whether if I start all over again I'll be charged twice and have to contact an automated reply from my credit card company to try to sort it out......
Not only do those working in outlets need jobs, those visiting them need human interaction.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
As the trend towards automation continues, what will become of these people?
This is difficult. I recognise a problem here but I suppose the way of thinking is very difficult for me to break into.
I run my parish's website and send out the various notices and announcements through Google+. I like to think that I am efficient and thorough, and try to include everything that people might need. I also prepare the music for services. So when, nearing the end Lent, two people anxiously pointed out that I hadn't yet given them the Easter music to learn and I pointed out that it had been on the music page of the website for weeks, imagine my dismay when one was unaware that the website had a music section and the other said, 'Oh, do we have a website now?' (We've had a website for five years).
Yes, our church has made a similar shift, with almost all our communications being conveyed through website, email and facebook. It is extraordinarily efficient, cost-effective and ecological. I can remember the days of mass mailings, the large budget required to pay the postage, the amount of volunteer time spent stuffing envelopes and sorting zip codes. The change has been amazing.
But there are people w/o computers. Even more w/o internet connection. Some, as the OP suggests, are elderly or tech-phobic. Others simply can't afford even a basic internet connection, and free wifi in these parts is becoming more & more rare.
The numbers of people who fall into that category are smaller & smaller all the time. But that only makes the problem worse, doesn't it? As it becomes more and more cost-effective to assume everyone has email, what happens to those who do not? When it comes to church communication in particular, that raises concerns for me.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
And then there are those of us who cannot use drive-through services because our arms are too short. My bank's lobby is open Monday-Friday. The drive-through is open Saturday also, but that doesn't do me any good.
Several friends of mine have the same problem.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I live in the hope that people will rebel against the automated voice in greater numbers and seek out human beings. When the local branch of my bank closed down, I changed to another bank. I will wait in a queue rather than use a self service machine.
I'm not a Luddite. I embrace technology and see it as a very valuable additional means of communication, but I draw the line when faced with a screen instead of a person.
I'm the complete opposite. When I struggled with anxiety for over a year and had difficulty even answering the phone on some days, it was only the fact that electronic services were available that I was able to conduct my business. When I was eventually able to go out again, my grocery shopping was done in the early hours when there were not many people around, and there's no way I could have faced interaction with anything other than a self-checkout machine.
That was years ago but a small part of that lingers. Phone calls from witheld numbers still make me a little anxious and I often prefer just getting on with my business.
I know someone who won't use self-service machines. He represents an organisation that reimburses me for small services I look after. He does this by driving to the building society and standing in a queue to withdraw cash, which he then gives to me when he sees me, so I then have to go to the Post Office and queue up to put it into my bank account. The whole thing could be done within the space of two minutes but takes three days. We laugh about it but his children didn't when they were at university and needed money. 'I'll send you a cheque in the post tomorrow' wasn't what they needed to hear.
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
This is difficult. I recognise a problem here but I suppose the way of thinking is very difficult for me to break into.
I run my parish's website and send out the various notices and announcements through Google+. I like to think that I am efficient and thorough, and try to include everything that people might need. I also prepare the music for services. So when, nearing the end Lent, two people anxiously pointed out that I hadn't yet given them the Easter music to learn and I pointed out that it had been on the music page of the website for weeks, imagine my dismay when one was unaware that the website had a music section and the other said, 'Oh, do we have a website now?' (We've had a website for five years).
Yes, our church has made a similar shift, with almost all our communications being conveyed through website, email and facebook. It is extraordinarily efficient, cost-effective and ecological. I can remember the days of mass mailings, the large budget required to pay the postage, the amount of volunteer time spent stuffing envelopes and sorting zip codes. The change has been amazing.
But there are people w/o computers. Even more w/o internet connection. Some, as the OP suggests, are elderly or tech-phobic. Others simply can't afford even a basic internet connection, and free wifi in these parts is becoming more & more rare.
The numbers of people who fall into that category are smaller & smaller all the time. But that only makes the problem worse, doesn't it? As it becomes more and more cost-effective to assume everyone has email, what happens to those who do not? When it comes to church communication in particular, that raises concerns for me.
You're completely right, of course, and I don't know the answer.
At least in the case of our parish, for now, the people who currently don't have internet access at home already pay visits to the library to use the internet for other areas of their lives. At the moment the lack of home internet/computers isn't a problem but it could easily become one.
[ 11. June 2012, 22:05: Message edited by: Michael Astley ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Earlier this month the bank I use closed its drive-through service. Formerly called motor banking, these are facilities where you can drive up to a window and conduct routine banking business without leaving your car. I don't know how prevalent this is or was outside the U.S.
ATMs accessible from cars remain available.
I have never, ever heard of or seen either of these things!
And actually I find it a bit odd that you see this as shutting out people who can't work with technology. Because a car is a piece of technology that many people don't have or can't use.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I have never, ever heard of or seen either of these things!
And actually I find it a bit odd that you see this as shutting out people who can't work with technology. Because a car is a piece of technology that many people don't have or can't use.
Ditto what Orfeo said.
(Apart from starting a sentence with a conjunction of course.)
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
(Apart from starting a sentence with a conjunction of course.)
This long-established usage, which seems to be regaining respectability, long pre-dates any rule against it. A complete thought can stretch over more than one sentence and a conjunction is quite proper.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
We have a similar problem in our church. In the last few years we have had quite a few new members who are homeless or living in hostels, some of whom have mental health issues and/or limited English. They are mostly older people also. Paper (plus visits, lifts or other personal interaction) has to be the way we convey information to these people.
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
It's interesting, in our local supermarket, the first week of the month (when the "eagle lands," so to speak and retirees get their Social Security checks) -- about 80 percent of the elders choose the checkout lanes with cashiers. They just don't like the self-checkout lanes.
At our church we have a similar technology gap. I'd say maybe only a third of our people have access to the Internet; part of it is an income/literacy thing, but part of it is lack of access to a reliable provider. Because we tend to have a far-flung membership, I thought it would be helpful for us to have a strong Internet presence, so DP and I worked very hard to develop a nice website, a Facebook page updated daily, a blog for assisting with catechesis -- studying the Sunday lessons and special days on the Church calendar in depth -- but it turned out that no one could, or would, read it. Even the pastor wasn't reading it; I could have been writing praises to Satan every day and he wouldn't have noticed. After I got sick last fall and started having to de-stress/de-complicate my life, that was easily the first thing to go. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
It's interesting, in our local supermarket, the first week of the month (when the "eagle lands," so to speak and retirees get their Social Security checks) -- about 80 percent of the elders choose the checkout lanes with cashiers. They just don't like the self-checkout lanes.
At our church we have a similar technology gap. I'd say maybe only a third of our people have access to the Internet; part of it is an income/literacy thing, but part of it is lack of access to a reliable provider. Because we tend to have a far-flung membership, I thought it would be helpful for us to have a strong Internet presence, so DP and I worked very hard to develop a nice website, a Facebook page updated daily, a blog for assisting with catechesis -- studying the Sunday lessons and special days on the Church calendar in depth -- but it turned out that no one could, or would, read it. Even the pastor wasn't reading it; I could have been writing praises to Satan every day and he wouldn't have noticed. After I got sick last fall and started having to de-stress/de-complicate my life, that was easily the first thing to go.
Our 84-yr-old babushka loves her iPad. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Seriously, if ever you find the time again, do try the website again. I got rid of the Facebook group when I left FB and got rid of the Google+ group because it was unnecessary. I would suggest focussing on the website.
For a long time, the stats showed that most of the visits came from the USA, then Russia, and only then the UK. The site was a source of interest to people abroad. After five years of perseverance, this changed for the first time this year, with most visitors coming from the UK. Many of the longer-standing parishioners from the pre-website days are still oblivious to most of the site content but we now have people who found us through the site and they use it to check service times and any last-minute changes. They submit photographs for the gallery and I'm going to start asking people to write for the articles page. Slowly, people are coming to see it as theirs and realising the benefits of having it.
It just takes patience and perseverance, and some trial and error in working out the right balance between making the content worth visiting the site for and putting too much community-geared stuff on there before the community has had a chance to embrace the website as its own.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
assuming, again, they have access to the internet.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
We have a similar problem in our church. In the last few years we have had quite a few new members who are homeless or living in hostels, some of whom have mental health issues and/or limited English. They are mostly older people also. Paper (plus visits, lifts or other personal interaction) has to be the way we convey information to these people.
This is a major concern for me. Along with orfeo's comment about people who can't use or just don't own cars (for whatever reason).
Working poor people can often make a one-time purchase of a piece of technology, but it's a burden to have to constantly upgrade it (as you must with computers now to keep up with the internet) and to have to pay ongoing fees (such as for internet access, or a cell phone plan).
When people have to choose between paying the rent and buying food - a situation facing more and more families now - having to also choose between rent and food and access to basic services via technology is just cruel. That applies mostly to online services; anyone can walk up to an ATM (although there may be fees associated with them; and banking is getting more and more difficult to afford if you're poor). I know if I were in a situation where I had to work really hard to avoid bank fees (which really creep up on you when you're low-income - you don't have enough money to meet the minimum balance for free checking; you're more likely to accidentally bounce a check and incur NSF fees, etc...) I would much prefer being able to deal with an actual person.
The technology can be good for others, though, as Michael Astley has pointed out. I suffer from depression, and often prefer to live virtually at times - email and facebook over phone calls, e.g. But then again, it's not healthy for me to do what I prefer; sometimes a phone call is what you really need to wrest your way out of a spell of depression. It's just that it's so hard to do, and at least email and facebook mean you don't become completely isolated and don't lose touch with the outside world (or your social circles).
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
assuming, again, they have access to the internet.
That's right.
I wasn't dismissing the subject of the OP but tangentially rather sympathising with LutheranChik's frustration, to which I can relate.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
Tried to edit, but the window closed while I was typing this:
ETA: I want to be clear, though, with my comments about poverty. Poor people are actually really resourceful and resilient on the whole; having to improvise and make do with what's on hand, they can be very creative. Things we jokingly call "ghetto fixes" where I'm from, anyway, are actually admirable to my mind. I'm working class, myself, not poor but sometimes swimming in the same waters. I want to be clear that I'm not implying in any way that poor people have trouble using technology when they can get their hands on it! Another thing - I personally don't own a cell phone, don't buy new computers, don't have cable, etc., because those are expenses I can cut out of my budget as a grad student. So in my imagination, having a cell phone is a luxury for people who can afford it. Yet I know people who are legitimately poor, not just working class, who have cell phones. It's a matter of juggling your own resources and needs in your own situation. Sometimes a cell phone replaces both a land line and a computer (and maybe even a TV). You never know what someone is sacrificing to be able to have something like a computer or cell phone (e.g., their house may be falling apart and they can't afford to fix it; they may not be able to afford paying their heating bill, etc). If someone's on welfare and owns a cell phone, it doesn't mean they're playing the system.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Bean Sidhe
Shipmate
# 11823
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Posted
I'm fine with automated systems where they really save time - buying a rail ticket, checking in at an airport, motorway toll booths (rare in the UK where most roads are financed from taxation, but there's one I use often).
Others, though, are time-wasters whose only value is to an employer who is saving on staff costs. Automated tills where I'll be turning items over and over looking for the barcode, waiting an age for someone to confirm that I am indeed old enough to buy a bottle of wine - or that the 'unexpected item in the bagging area' doesn't actually exist. Phone systems that take me through seemingly endless menus before accepting that I really do need to talk to a sentient being.
And yes, these systems will exclude those who can't cope with them if we lose any choice, if there aren't real people available as an alternative. Adding to those already excluded from much of life by illiteracy, poverty, mental health problems, learning difficulties etc. I suspect this is just going to happen anyway.
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How do you know when a politician is lying?
His lips are moving.
Danny DeVito
Posts: 4363 | From: where the taxis won't go | Registered: Sep 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
A major frustration of the moment--
Online job applications used as the ONLY way of getting a job as (say) a grocery bagger. I have people with limited English and less tech skills turn up and ask me to walk them through the two hour online application process for what is essentially a no-skills minimum wage job--and why is it anyway that the online applications are three times as long as the old fashioned paper ones? Whoever comes up with these things seems to think we all have unlimited time and patience to hunt down the name of our cousin's sister-in-law's aunt and the address of the first place we ever babysat.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
YES. Another factor in why the homeless can't "just get a job". Curiously, a lot of otherwise well-educated folks just don't seem to get this.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
Phone systems that take me through seemingly endless menus before accepting that I really do need to talk to a sentient being.
I agree with you on most of the things you list, and the self-checkout thing with caveats, but I disagree with this. I know that it can be frustrating to try to navigate through IVRs to get to speak to someone but often the reason there are so many options and so many recorded announcements is precisely so that you actually stand a chance of getting through to someone.
They work on the same principle as the websites discussed in a recent hell thread, where you only get to the customer service phone number after you navigate your way through help and advice pages. The intention is that they weed out the time-wasters.
People who have worked in call centres and seen this from the other side will know what I mean. People phone companies with all sorts of nonsense that has nothing to do with anything, or with basic questions that anybody with a brain cell should really be able to work out, and these are the people who clog up the call queue with the result that people with genuine enquiries end up having to wait considerably longer than necessary. I think that businesses try to reduce the effect of this by giving these people the information they want before they actually connect, thus freeing up some lines.
Having experienced both sides of this, I don't mind tedious IVRs so much.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
Phone systems that take me through seemingly endless menus before accepting that I really do need to talk to a sentient being.
I agree with you on most of the things you list, and the self-checkout thing with caveats, but I disagree with this. I know that it can be frustrating to try to navigate through IVRs to get to speak to someone but often the reason there are so many options and so many recorded announcements is precisely so that you actually stand a chance of getting through to someone.
They work on the same principle as the websites discussed in a recent hell thread, where you only get to the customer service phone number after you navigate your way through help and advice pages. The intention is that they weed out the time-wasters.
People who have worked in call centres and seen this from the other side will know what I mean. People phone companies with all sorts of nonsense that has nothing to do with anything, or with basic questions that anybody with a brain cell should really be able to work out, and these are the people who clog up the call queue with the result that people with genuine enquiries end up having to wait considerably longer than necessary. I think that businesses try to reduce the effect of this by giving these people the information they want before they actually connect, thus freeing up some lines.
Having experienced both sides of this, I don't mind tedious IVRs so much.
I think, though, that it's a question of design. Because I've dealt with some IVRs that are perfectly fine and sensible, and dealt with some others that are difficult and frustrating. Sensible design of options is absolutely critical to the experience.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
The closure is part of the bank's long-term strategy to cut costs through automation by encouraging customers to utilize ATMs and web banking instead of tellers. While there haven't been any public announcements of the strategy or timeline, it's clear that the goal is to eliminate the use of human tellers entirely.
If there hasn't been any public announcement, how do you know about it?
This table from the FDIC indicates that there were more bank branches in the US at the end of 2011 than at any time since the FDIC began in 1934, and 2008 saw a record increase in the number of branches.
This is not a good example of "products and services that are available only to people who are able to interact with technology."
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I have never, ever heard of or seen either of these things!
And actually I find it a bit odd that you see this as shutting out people who can't work with technology. Because a car is a piece of technology that many people don't have or can't use.
Ditto what Orfeo said.
(Apart from starting a sentence with a conjunction of course.)
Agreeing with both of you.
There used to be a drive through bottle shop near me for many years, but it shut a while ago. Too many robberies. As for cheques, I paid the deposit on this place with a personal cheque but stamp duty and the balance was done with a bank cheque on an electronic transfer of funds.
I would hardly write a cheque a year.Other than that, I consider myself fairly computer literate and have been using them since mid-1970s. Bulletin boards and internet.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Grocery stores and fast-food chains have been experimenting (unsuccessfully, so far) with replacing checkout workers with automated systems.
Amen! I know that I am falling off the technology edge on this movement. I've tried and tried to navigate these things in a number of stores foe a couple of years now. I have an about 75% failure rate with them, and I feel like such an idiot. So I've been rude to poor attendants (and I'd worked retail for years, so I'm usually most sympathetic). I've given up. I'll only shop at stores that have human check-out lines available. So Fresh and Easy (US Tesco) is off my list. Now at my local CVS I get surly if they insist I use the self check-out while they hover over me!
[ 12. June 2012, 03:03: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
A complete thought can stretch over more than one sentence. And a conjunction is quite proper.
There we go. Much better.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Grocery stores and fast-food chains have been experimenting (unsuccessfully, so far) with replacing checkout workers with automated systems. We now have a number of completely unattended gas stations.
All our gas stations have been unattended for many years. At ours, totally, we pay by card and put the gas in ourselves. I find it fine.
But I never use automatic checkouts - it's not the technology which puts me off, I'm fine with technology, it's the awful voice which shouts at people about 'bagging areas' arrrgh!
Our bank has gone full circle and now has real people at the counter.
I'm OK with online banking - but when telephone banking I had my card blocked every time. I am dyslexic and have special difficulty with numbers - typing numbers almost always has me reversing at least two, which, on a phone keypad, simply doesn't work. When I phoned them to explain the problem they were unhelpful, so I didn't bother with the service again.
Horses for courses, I guess.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
People being people will always try to save either time...or money...and sometimes both. Yet the outcome is what suits most people, most of the time. As mentioned earlier, we will possibly always have exclusion, of some people, some of the time.
Which is understandable except for two things:
What did Jesus have to say about people who are excluded or are doing the exclusing?
And what happenes when it's our dearest and dearest or ourselves who are on the recieving end of that exclusion?
(for exclusion is what it feels like.....)
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
Any change is going to benefit some people and be a disadvantage for others. Personally I find face to face interaction stressful. I love automated systems. In my perfect world, every single thing you might want to buy would come out of a vending machine. I absolutely love being able to do my research online and order things online rather than having to navigate the social minefield of dealing with salespeople. For people who struggle with the technology, or who have a very low IQ, automated check outs will be difficult. For people like me (ASD in my case, but I'd imagine people with social anxiety or severe depression might also benefit) who prefer dealing with machines, they are a relief. I can imagine them being great for people whose hearing is impaired, too, since everything they say comes with subtitles on the screen. Not so good if you can't see well.
I don't want to see humans disappear from these settings completely. Well, okay, if it were just for me I'd love it, but I realise that many people prefer to have humans around, and there are people who will struggle if the machines take over. For my own part, though, I am incredibly glad that I was born into a time when technology has become so ubiquitous - I would be significantly more disabled without it.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
Phone systems that take me through seemingly endless menus before accepting that I really do need to talk to a sentient being.
I agree with you on most of the things you list, and the self-checkout thing with caveats, but I disagree with this. I know that it can be frustrating to try to navigate through IVRs to get to speak to someone but often the reason there are so many options and so many recorded announcements is precisely so that you actually stand a chance of getting through to someone.
These are hell for people with hearing problems. When there is a human being on the other end, I can explain that I am hard-of-hearing and would they please speak louder. With many of these systems, you can get a human being by pressing 0. Failing that, I hang up and redial. After I have listened ten or fifteen times, I can often figure out enough of what they're saying.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
There's also an issue with this on the supply side, ISTM, which is that computers are now doing things that previously would have supplied someone with a (often unskilled) job. How many people are ending up out of work as a result of automating bloody everything?
I know it's more cost effective but it still bothers me.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
As of about six weeks ago the college where I work only accepts online applications from prospective students. Though we (genuinely) will help you do it if you can't or won't on your own.
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
The problem is that there is a sizable (5%? 10%? who knows) minority of people who don't have the intellectual aptitude to figure these things out. These are the people who could never get their VCR to quit blinking ten years ago. People who can, by most other measures, live independently, hold jobs, and engage with society.
If someone really is too stupid to use a VCR they ought not to be driving a car which is a hell of a lot more complicated, as well as being dangerous. Yes, there are people who can't do the online stuff but for most of them its age and nervousness, not intelligence.
Anyway, access by car only is more exclusive than online access because more people have mobile phones or internet access than have cars. Yes, even in America. Outside America online its overwhelmingly more accessible than cars. The move to online payments and money transfer has made banking availble to hundreds of millions of people all over the world who had no access to it before becauise they didn't have things like cars and lived far from the nearest bank branch.
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Grocery stores and fast-food chains have been experimenting (unsuccessfully, so far) with replacing checkout workers with automated systems.
Amen! I know that I am falling off the technology edge on this movement. I've tried and tried to navigate these things in a number of stores foe a couple of years now. I have an about 75% failure rate with them, and I feel like such an idiot.
I'd use the self-service checkouts if they didn't keep yelling at you all the time. And the shop staff hover around and tell you what to do. I go to a shop to buys stuff, not to waste time being given orders. If they would only leave you alone to get on with it.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
I think I may have chosen a poor opening example that has resulted in the conversation veering off into anti-automobile territory. Even so, I have known people -- younger people -- who are capable of driving safely who have trouble dealing with computers. Part of the reason is that they learn their car and interact in a roadway environment that requires, at most, limited literacy. While, on the other hand, web sites, ATM machines, stamp vending machines, gas pumps, and automated checkouts have widely varying designs which change over time such that each one has to be learned anew when it is encountered.
Computers pose a problem of their own in that many people -- I'd guess 25% or more of adults in the 21-40 age range who have more or less been around them all their lives -- can't maintain them without frequent outside assistance. They get someone in their peer or family group who will help them overcome minor obstacles, or make extensive use of fee based support services.
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I'd use the self-service checkouts if they didn't keep yelling at you all the time. And the shop staff hover around and tell you what to do. I go to a shop to buys stuff, not to waste time being given orders. If they would only leave you alone to get on with it.
One of the psychosocial changes that's taken place over the last ten years is that people will now put up with an amazing amount of crap from a machine before they give up. Over time, the human alternatives are going away. Many phone trees won't let you dial 0 and speak to a human being any more, and people tolerate this in part because they don't have effective alternatives.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
I think I may have chosen a poor opening example that has resulted in the conversation veering off into anti-automobile territory. Even so, I have known people -- younger people -- who are capable of driving safely who have trouble dealing with computers.
And my 10-year-old nephew is pretty handy with a computer but can't drive a car. What's your point?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
Orfeo, we're discussing aptitude in the context of gateway technology which, if not mastered, precludes full participation in society. Do you believe that your 10 year old nephew lacks the aptitude to drive? Do his parents/guardians lack the ability to drive? As a result, is he truly shut out from those opportunities accessible to him only via automobile?
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Anyway, access by car only is more exclusive than online access because more people have mobile phones or internet access than have cars. Yes, even in America. Outside America online its overwhelmingly more accessible than cars..
Definitely not true in the US. Definitely not true in Africa. Can't speak for other parts of the world.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Orfeo, we're discussing aptitude in the context of gateway technology which, if not mastered, precludes full participation in society.
Yes we are. Just as previous gateway technologies like reading and driving. All exclude a large minority of people.
Online access to banking, government services, public transport timetables, retail, and so on certainly excludes fewer people than driving does.
Whether or not it excludes more than the neccessity for literacy does is complicated - I guess that some things will be available to more than before, others to fewer, but I doubt if we know enough yet to be sure which.
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Computers pose a problem of their own in that many people -- I'd guess 25% or more of adults in the 21-40 age range who have more or less been around them all their lives -- can't maintain them without frequent outside assistance.
Irrelevant. You don't have to be able to maintain a computer to use it. Any more than you have to be able to maintain a car to use it ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) )
What about all the other systems we have in our houses we don't know how to maintain? I probably couldn't fix my plumbing or my drains or my gas supply to save my life, and wouldn't try. I could probably install or fix the electrical supply but in practice I don't, and I bet most people couldn't - certainly far more than 25% What about TV? Or plain old telephones? Who knows how to maintain them? Even if you need frequent outside assistance, most people manage.
And doubly irrelevant because online services are accessed through all sorts of devices, noit just general-purpose computers. The most common is probably mobile phones, and almost everybody has a mobile phone these days and almost no-one has the slightest idea how they work or any ability to fix them when they go wrong. They are far less exclusive than cars - or even than literacy. I know people who use smartphones who can't read and write properly. Online services can also be accessed thorough games consoles, and increasingly through cable TV.
Yes these technologies exclude some people. Too many. We ought to collectively be helping them. But that's a political problem not a technological one. Probably it needs s a more robust and liberal welfare state, not a return to old technology. Public libraries in your local neighbourhood that are actiually open when you need to go to them, and can get you online for free. Decent schools. Adult education that yu can access at any age. Social services that can provide the elderly, disabled, and ill with some assistance to give in their own homes. Care homes for those who really can't any more. Respite care for the family or carers of severely disabled people. Welfare payments for the unemployed. Affordable and convenient public transport. All those boring but useful things that we nearly, so nearly, managed to provide for each other in the 20th century and now seem to be drawing away from - those are a whole lot more important than whether or not the bank wants you to use its website.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Edith
Shipmate
# 16978
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Posted
Ken for Prime Minister.
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Edith
Posts: 256 | From: UK | Registered: Mar 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Orfeo, we're discussing aptitude in the context of gateway technology which, if not mastered, precludes full participation in society. Do you believe that your 10 year old nephew lacks the aptitude to drive? Do his parents/guardians lack the ability to drive? As a result, is he truly shut out from those opportunities accessible to him only via automobile?
In all seriousness, do you not remember what life was like before you could drive?
I certainly remember what it was like in my later teenage years, before I got my licence at age 19. There were all sorts of things that it was far easier for me to do once I had access to a car. I also remember what it was like when I spent some time at the age of 24 relying on a bicycle for transport.
ANY system shuts out some people. A car is technology. It's not technology I ever imagined being particularly important for banking, but you apparently live in a part of the world where banking-from-your-car is (or was) viable. But it's no less technological than the other things you think of as technological.
Your general point about automation is an interesting one. But your choice of example is really bad, and even after you recognised its flaws you STILL tried to run with it by talking about people who can drive cars but can't use computers. Which really doesn't make sense to me. That's simply not a demonstration of "a person who can't use technology". It's a demonstration of a person who likes one form of technology over another.
And yes, people prefer one form of technology over another. Which is a good argument for providing more than one means of doing something.
However, living in a country where the idea of drive-through banking is unheard of, you are certainly not going to convince me that a car is a particularly vital component of banking. It might be a useful thing for getting TO the bank, but frankly I've got an urge to say that drive-through banking is a total extravagance. Park the car somewhere nearby, get out of it and WALK into a bank.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Yes, well said, Ken. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
A major frustration of the moment--
Online job applications used as the ONLY way of getting a job as (say) a grocery bagger. I have people with limited English and less tech skills turn up and ask me to walk them through the two hour online application process for what is essentially a no-skills minimum wage job...
A homeless friend is frustrated that the on-line job form takes 2 hours to fill out and the public library limits computer use to one hour. There's no coordination between the companies offering the minimum wage jobs and the providers of access to the on-line-only applications. (Or it's a way of weeding out the homeless and very poor from those jobs?)
Meanwhile, several friends have dial-up only, or no internet, because the cost of high speed internet is really high in USA, but being unwired means they don't get notices of things their groups are doing unless someone takes special effort to call.
More than call -- choral groups often use email attachments to distribute music mark-ups, performance instructions with diagrams of parking areas and charts of who stands where. Some choirs distribute next Sunday's hymns via email, churches send readers the readings (in the one translation to be used, with selected alternative verses included or excluded) via email attachment. Someone without internet cannot just be called, a volunteer has to go to their house to deliver the info (or the info prepared 3 days earlier so it can be mailed).
Participation by the unwired is extra work for the coordinator. Many won't do the extra work.
One internet-less friend calls unwillingness to phone her with info that was emailed to others "arrogant," but the volunteer coordinators are already putting in a lot of time and don't see value in extra effort to include one more whose membership is not critical to the group. Or they just don't think about it -- write an email, one click and the email went to 30 people, task done. That 2 have no email and need to be called and arrangements made to get the attachment info to them, is out of mind.
I understand both sides. Not having your own internet connection is isolating. When people with a decent income and the brains to handle it choose no internet ("I like the peace," "I wouldn't use it enough to justify the cost"), whose job is it to overcome the isolation? When people can't afford it, how can they be integrated into a world that works by wire?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
[qb]
Your general point about automation is an interesting one. But your choice of example is really bad, and even after you recognised its flaws you STILL tried to run with it by talking about people who can drive cars but can't use computers. Which really doesn't make sense to me. That's simply not a demonstration of "a person who can't use technology". It's a demonstration of a person who likes one form of technology over another..
Rather than computers v. cars, a better distinction would be internet access v. cars.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And yes, people prefer one form of technology over another. Which is a good argument for providing more than one means of doing something.
The problem is really about more than just preference-- it's a problem of access. But yes, I agree, the solution is to provide multiple means of access, since there are people who are shut out in different ways.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Yes, sorry, "preference" was rather sloppy terminology.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Anyway, access by car only is more exclusive than online access because more people have mobile phones or internet access than have cars. Yes, even in America. Outside America online its overwhelmingly more accessible than cars..
Definitely not true in the US. Definitely not true in Africa. Can't speak for other parts of the world.
Sorry what's not true? That online access is more widespread than cars are? Sorry, but that is true, just, in the USA and its true by a long way in many parts of Africa.
Money transfer and online payment by mobile phone has become the norm in huge parts of Africa. And is certainly more common than car driving.
For example there are probably just over a million motor vehicles in Kenya, about half of which are private cars (the rest mostly small pick-up trucks, many of which are used as matatus, a sort of semi-formal minbus). But Kenya's largest online banking service, which is accessed via mobile phone, passed 17 million subscribers at the end of last year. (Out of the 25 million mobile phone users - maybe fifty for every landline phone)
Or Nigeria - a bit more prosperous on average than Kenya, but with a worse history of government provision of infrastructure - less than ten million motor vehicles but at least 90 million mobile phones.
M-banking (horrid jargon) is taking off worldwide, but more in poorer countries than richer ones, precisely because those places don't have the on-the-ground infrastructure we took centuries to build - especially in rural areas. If you live five miles from the nearest electrical supply or phone line, and fifty miles from the nearest town, and you make less than a thousand dollars a year, you are not going to be able to walk to the bank to do your business or to afford a car to drivbe there. But you can afford a mobile phone. Maybe you can share one with your brothers or neighbours. And nowadays that is a gateway technology to all sorts of things.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
A homeless friend is frustrated that the on-line job form takes 2 hours to fill out and the public library limits computer use to one hour. There's no coordination between the companies offering the minimum wage jobs and the providers of access to the on-line-only applications. (Or it's a way of weeding out the homeless and very poor from those jobs?)
Meanwhile, several friends have dial-up only, or no internet, because the cost of high speed internet is really high in USA, but being unwired means they don't get notices of things their groups are doing unless someone takes special effort to call.
I just want to mention that WiFi is available just about everywhere. One thing that I have begun to do is take the used laptops from work that we would just end up junking and marrying them up with folks who don't have one. I imagine most employers would be happy to accommodate this kind of thing, as long as you're not selling them. Our tech support people go over the units to make sure that they are in good working order.
My wife is a town librarian, and she often encounters people who could use a free laptop. Her library has WiFi available as well as computers that can be reserved for the typical one hour. The WiFi is unlimited. While you need to be careful when you offer the laptop because it would be easy to make somebody feel patronized, if you have a working relationship with the recipient and make it clear that the computer would just be tossed out anyway, people seem genuinely appreciative that you were thinking of them. FWIW
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Anyway, access by car only is more exclusive than online access because more people have mobile phones or internet access than have cars. Yes, even in America. Outside America online its overwhelmingly more accessible than cars..
Definitely not true in the US. Definitely not true in Africa. Can't speak for other parts of the world.
Sorry what's not true? That online access is more widespread than cars are? Sorry, but that is true, just, in the USA and its true by a long way in many parts of Africa.
Money transfer and online payment by mobile phone has become the norm in huge parts of Africa. And is certainly more common than car driving.
In East Africa where I work, yes, cell phones are ubiquitous. But internet access is limited to a very few cafes in only the largest cities. Yes, cars are a luxury but most everyone knows someone they can bum a ride off of. Banking is limited to a very elite class and ex-pats, money is transferred only thru Western Union. Online payments are impossible due to lack of internet access.
In L.A. where I live, a good percentage of the homeless I work with have some sort of car. None have internet access.
But again, huge differences country to country, place to place, person to person. Which is why ken's suggestions are so important, as well as the suggestion to have multiple means of access.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Which part of East Africa?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Edith
Shipmate
# 16978
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Posted
I'd like to know that. I used to teach in Nkokonjeru in Uganda
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Edith
Posts: 256 | From: UK | Registered: Mar 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Zambia, which is actually more central than eastern.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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