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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What will happen to the church when the congregations all retire?
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I wrote a few months ago about some of the problems of an aging congregation, but I think there is another issue too with the reality that church congregations are getting older.
Now I accept that some individual churches do not have these problems, but overall, this is the picture that we see - the congregations are aging, because the churches are not drawing in more people of the younger age ranges.
Now the church has sort of coped, because - generally - salaries increase as people age, so the income has not been as impacted as it might be. However, this usually comes to a break as people retire. And in 10 years or so, many women ( who make up a significant proportion of the congregations ) will be retiring. And even those who have partners who are still earning, they are liable to retire at a similar time.
So what will happen to the churches, which take an astounding amount of money to support, when the income flow of its supporters drops off - something that is liable to be a fairly sudden ( 5 years ) event, not a gradual (20 years) slow down. Will their be bankruptcies? What happens when a diocese ( or area, or whatever ) cannot pay its way?
[ 16. June 2012, 11:25: Message edited by: Schroedinger's cat ]
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Blog
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Depends on the pension avaiable to the retirees.
If the church is valuable to them, the donations probably won't drop that much... until the donors die or move to "Waiting for God" spaces.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
Most elderly don't drop off church giving that much after they retire as far as I've noticed. Even my mother who is perhaps the most frugal woman I know gives as much to her church now as when there was a lot more money coming in.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
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Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Will their be bankruptcies? What happens when a diocese ( or area, or whatever ) cannot pay its way?
Well, the C of E is already well into deficit in London. The strategies currently is use seem to be: a) try to persuade people to give a higher proportion of their income to the church; b) close churches; c) not replacing clergy when they leave a post.
As you say, none of these is going to work in the long run. The collapse of private pensions and the cuts in public service pensions will eventually scupper a), and options b) and c) can't continue indefinitely without the church disappearing.
I don't know about bankruptcies. That's an interesting question which I think must depend on the legal status of the church in question. The C of E as the established church is probably legally distinct from churches of other denominations.
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I guess the church will have to sell off some of its land and silver (typically they will leave it all until the last minute, then try to sell it all at once, when it won't be worth so much) and rely solely on NSM priests.
I'd be reluctant to see the buildings go as they are a focal point in communities, but perhaps a deal could be struck by which the best ones are preserved as museums of art with occasional services rather than as full-time churches.
Perhaps, just as people realise what they have lost, there will be a resurgence of fund-raising (rather like has happened with the National Trust). Hopefully this won't happen when it is too late to save most old churches.
But, if the worst comes to the worst, many ruins are still valued, much visited, and - occasionally - still hold services.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Ok, traditionally giving has not always diminished on retirement, but I suspect that in the next 10 years or so, it will start to - pensions will be squeezed more and more, and, just to add to it, early retirement may be seen as a good cost-reduction measure.
What is more, people will also die and then stop giving. So the decline may be more drawn out than i have indicated, but a) that just means that churches will "mend and make do" for a whole lot longer, and b) I wanted to highlight the possibility that in some places, there will be a significant drop in income.
I think the core points are still valid. If you want, consider what would happen if the churches had a 10% decline in income every year from now on. How would they cope?
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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
The most generous givers in churches actually tend to be widows on a fixed income. I've seen the numbers at more than one church of more than one denomination. This is in accordance with studies that show the poor being more generous than the wealthy.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
The most generous givers in churches actually tend to be widows on a fixed income.
Yes. And elderly women who never married. Once when I was in a position to see the money coming in to a parish it was clear that the largest givers were older, working-class women.
quote:
This is in accordance with studies that show the poor being more generous than the wealthy.
And with Jesus's own parable about the widow's mite!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I suppose the National Trust could make a bid for some of the churches, and they could still be used for weddings and funerals and more casual church occasions and carol services.
A clerical aquaintence once remarked that he wished it would actually go like that as soon as possible, as the people who attended baptisms, weddings and funerals who were technically non-church, were much nicer and didn't tend to interfere.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Schroedinger's cat is semi-right. Those going on pension will not by much diminish their giving and I think it might well increase, as well as the availability of their time in volunteer work of all sort in the parish ('lay ministries', if you prefer that terminology).
The difficulty will be when they start expiring-- their replacements in the demographic pipeline are not there, nor have they developed habits of church affiliation or attendance. While a few will turn in that direction, especially those who retire into an area and want to establish roots (or even happy to move into a parish where they have not been tied up with, or repelled by, differences and conflict), the numbers will not be that great.
At some point, either the place will close (the preferred option of ecclesiastical managers, so that untidy files can be closed and funds redirected for their preferred activities -aka 'mission'), or amalgamate with other churches to form a multi-point charge, or go with non-stipiendary clergy, or a mix of the latter two with NSM massing priests and the pros dealing with coordination and the more complex situations.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Once when I was in a position to see the money coming in to a parish it was clear that the largest givers were older, working-class women.
As the most generous parishes tend to be the working-class ones (and I have to say, Evangelical).
This is a very pessimistic thread. It's a discussion that comes round in every generation: 'congregations are getting older, they will soon die off, and then the churches will close' But it's not universally true that new people aren't joining the church in sufficient numbers. Some parishes are shadows of their former selves, but many are in good heart and attracting new people... either much younger ones, or the slightly younger-than-retiring-age group as they reconsider their priorities in life.
Most of the churches I remember from 40 years ago were full of over-60s, who will all be dead now. Few of those churches are, because new people have taken their place.
[ 16. June 2012, 16:29: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Captain Chrism
Shipmate
# 11393
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Posted
Why does it all have to be bad news?
The post-war [WWII] demographic within the congregation means that many of our church members are now retiring and are available for ministry. Daytime activities, which we were unable to staff previously, are now flourishing.
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Because we are not an organisation, let alone a business, or even an institution, but in reality the people of God gathered by the Holy Spirit to walk together in a way that leads to the greater glory of God... Justin Welby
Posts: 72 | From: Sherwood Forest, England | Registered: May 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I'd be reluctant to see the buildings go as they are a focal point in communities, but perhaps a deal could be struck by which the best ones are preserved as museums of art with occasional services rather than as full-time churches.
As long as the faithful are not expected to maintain them. There's something peculiar depressing about, two things. The first is a poster of a spire shaped thermometer. The second is the people of God serving a building rather than the building serving the people of God.
It would be a terrible failure on our part if we were the last generation of Christians. How would we excuse ourselves on the Last Day?
So rather than bemoan the lack of younger Christians to whom to pass on the baton, we need both to win them over and to pray them in.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Seems to me a fundamental question is what is the ecclesia, the church. Fundamentally, it is where two or three are gathered together in Jesus name. It is not some Hierarchical body as much as a group of people who proclaim the gospel and administer the sacraments.
I think if you look back through the history of the church there is a bit of an ebb and flow going on. At one time Europe was on fire for the Lord, sending out missionaries throughout the world. Recently it has been the United States which had caught the missionary zeal. Now it is Africa and Asia where the church is growing the most. Think of it, Africans sending missionaries to Europe and the Americas.
Christianity is not a dying religion. It is alive and well in many parts of the world.
I have no fear of the church disappearing. Two or three people gathering together in the name of the Lord will continue to happen well into the future.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Africans coming back as missionaries to the UK is not new. This dates from 2007 and is talking about Patrick and Helen Mukholi who came over from Mombasa Diocese in East Africa to work as missionaries on the Blackbird Leys Estate near Oxford in England. I know about them because I attended a talk given by them. I'm sure there are more
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Schroedinger's cat is semi-right. Those going on pension will not by much diminish their giving and I think it might well increase, as well as the availability of their time in volunteer work of all sort in the parish ('lay ministries', if you prefer that terminology).
Previous generations didn't curtail their giving when they retired, but I think baby boomers will, especially the ones who lost retirement savings in the recession. I can't see the "me generation" increasing their charitable giving when they go on fixed incomes. But we'll know for sure in a few years, at least in the US, as people born in 1946 hit full retirement age this year.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Most of the churches I remember from 40 years ago were full of over-60s, who will all be dead now. Few of those churches are, because new people have taken their place.
When I first turned up at our church, now well over 20 years ago, on Sunday mornings the left-hand-side of the front of the church was dominated by a very large group contingent of old women. Maybe twenty or more. Two or three of them even brought their husbands with them.
Now only one of them is attending regularly, and another one or two occasionally. A couple of them are too ill to come, others have moved away to retire to the country (or the Caribbean), others have died (as have the husbands as far as I know). One of the husbands has a room in the church named after him, a couple of the old women have their names on a park bench, one of them has a framed picture on the wall of the vestry (is it a sin to ask blessed Doris to pray for us? A presumption that she is in a position to do so? Is that how cults start?)
But there are other old women who have turned up, and some of the younger women have got old enough to count as old. And as there are a lot more younger women than there were the supply of old women looks as if it hasn't dried up. Still not many old men. If I hang on another ten or fifteen years maybe I'll count as one.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Africans coming back as missionaries to the UK is not new. This dates from 2007 and is talking about Patrick and Helen Mukholi who came over from Mombasa Diocese in East Africa to work as missionaries on the Blackbird Leys Estate near Oxford in England. I know about them because I attended a talk given by them. I'm sure there are more
Yes right back to the 1950 or 1960s I think at St James URC Sheffield a deaconess from somewhere in the Carribean. Sorry not to be more precise, this is based on a paper article read several years ago in Reform (the URC magazine) and the recollection of people belonging to other Presbyterian churches nearby.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Still not many old men. If I hang on another ten or fifteen years maybe I'll count as one.
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) What's the life expectancy in your corner of Southwark diocese, Ken?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Ship's Stowaway
Shipmate
# 16237
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Posted
Church attendance runs in long historical cycles, down in some eras, up in others. I am an American, but the TEC is struggling with parallel problems to those of the CofE.
However, the CofE has actually been in much worse shape in other eras. See this 1933 article on how the 1830s English Oxford Movement (Anglo-Catholics) partially arose to remedy things like this:
"The Bishop of London recorded that in 1800 there were only six communicants in St. Paul's Cathedral on Easter Day."
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Other juicy details from the so-called Age of Enlightenment:
"Communions were neglected; in many churches the font was filled with an accumulation of debris and the altar was a rickety table that served more often as a convenient place for the minister's overcoat, hat, and riding whip than as God's Board."
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
And in America?
"And Chief Justice Marshall almost echoed the words of Thomas Arnold when he declared there was no future for the Episcopal Church."
Here's a link to the article:
http://anglicanhistory.org/usa/acb/17.html
Compared to that era, today's CofE and TEC are miracles of piety and observance.
![[Smile]](smile.gif) ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
[ 16. June 2012, 22:32: Message edited by: Ship's Stowaway ]
Posts: 119 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Feb 2011
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Still not many old men. If I hang on another ten or fifteen years maybe I'll count as one.
What's the life expectancy in your corner of Southwark diocese, Ken?
Probably lower than anywhere else in the South of England outside some of the grottier post-industrial parts of North Kent (which is only down the road of course)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
However, the CofE has actually been in much worse shape in other eras. See this 1933 article on how the 1830s English Oxford Movement (Anglo-Catholics) partially arose to remedy things like this:
"The Bishop of London recorded that in 1800 there were only six communicants in St. Paul's Cathedral on Easter Day."...
Those anecdotes misinterpret the situation. Communion was a thrice yearly service separate from the usual Sunday service, and crumbling churches were the result of wealthy lay incumbents not bothering to maintain the churches in their charge. They don't necessarily indicate a lack of general participation in church life in society as a whole.
[ 17. June 2012, 01:29: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Several small towns near me have Methodist churches that are dwindling. The building is fully owned (no mortgage), upkeep including major repairs is done hands-on mostly by church members which keeps out of pocket costs low. But there is no money for kiddie art programs, etc. (Well, with only 20 people in the church there are "not enough kids for a kid program," but the Sunday school of my early childhood was 3 kids and we had fun! Sometimes I think standards/assumptions are too high).
A nearby tiny town church was down to 6 ASA when the District sent a retired clergy guy, within two years that church had 30 members and attendance as high as 70. He re-retired and was replaced with a guy who had two churches, I think he's bi-vocational, tried hard, but the church stopped growing. Some clergy are better than others at whatever it is attracts and keeps people.
Another church in the District with attendance in the high teens just had it's clergy pulled, i.e. the official policy of District is "we will let this one die." I don't know the basis for deciding which tiny churches to support with paid clergy and which not to.
Some of the tiny Methodist churches have services only twice a month. Makes it easier to share clergy.
Personally I think the solution is to "return the church to the people" -- encourage people to stop being dependent of formal clergy, paid or not. I grew up in a morning prayer church, why isn't that a fine way to have a lay-led church, and keep the church going longer than it can afford clergy?
But eventually a church with no replacement people dies. If the whole town is dying, it's inevitable. If the town is not dying but the church is, there may be other problems, like a group who feel it's "my church" and resent "those newcomers."
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Morgan
Shipmate
# 15372
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Posted
Older people generally maintain a reasonable level of giving. They also show a generosity of spirit in their commitment of time and effort to church activities.
Our church has a recycled clothing shop staffed completely by volunteers whose average age would be well past normal retirement age. Some of the most involved are in their eighties.
This ministry generates some income for the church but more importantly enables us to build relationships with a broad range of people in our local community.
Posts: 111 | From: Canberra | Registered: Dec 2009
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
This is a very pessimistic thread. It's a discussion that comes round in every generation: 'congregations are getting older, they will soon die off, and then the churches will close' But it's not universally true that new people aren't joining the church in sufficient numbers.
On the other hand within two miles of where I sit, there are at least EIGHT closed church buildings (some demolished). The number of weekly masses in the Catholic churches have also decreased as numbers have declined. Only one of them was Anglican and the other possible Anglican closure was turned round in the early 1980s to now be thriving.
Contrarywise there are also at least 3 churches, which are meeting in hired premises, two because they have outgrown their own building, and the other which is a 'new church' - and is looking for a larger building to hire.
A confusion in all the financial discussions is the fact that some of the older generation give large legacies to their church: a friend who is to be inducted into a very run down team will have the benefit of one of the churches having such a gift - in the hundreds of thousands - 'for its maintaince'. It doesn't take a lot of those to postpone a closure - which is sometimes a bad thing...
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I must say I found the demographic in my last Anglican parish heartily discouraging. The few "younger" people seemed to be around 40 and were not the sort who would bring many others in, except their close friends, who were already there. It all seemed terribly cliquey and co-dependent. I think the Anglican Archdiocese of Brisbane is a bit like this. Not much spiritual life.
The Catholic cathedral, where I now go, seems a bit like a busy central railway station but there seems a bit more emphasis on spiritual self-help rather than social life. I find that good. It's also much more ethnically varied and has far more young people.
I think many Western churches are having a hard time. Sometimes I think it's their own fault.
There are churches and churches.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Personally I think the solution is to "return the church to the people" -- encourage people to stop being dependent of formal clergy, paid or not. I grew up in a morning prayer church, why isn't that a fine way to have a lay-led church, and keep the church going longer than it can afford clergy?
I agree, this is a good move in certain circumstances.
The Synod of South Australia in the Uniting Church is getting ahead of things by proactively working on a model for rural areas (where population density cannot support ordained clergy in every congregation) where lay leadership is honoured, supported and invested in. The role of the church hierarchy is to support and resource the leadership of those congregations rather than blowing in and taking the leadership away from those who know the local context best.
I don't think an approach like that is good for urban ministry though. Urban congregations need missional leadership which challenges them more than a self-led model can allow for.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
I don't think an approach like that is good for urban ministry though. Urban congregations need missional leadership which challenges them more than a self-led model can allow for.
Why should urban congregations be any different? The perception that problems are less in the country is hard to justify...
[ 17. June 2012, 09:43: Message edited by: Ender's Shadow ]
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Chorister:
I'd be reluctant to see the buildings go as they are a focal point in communities, but perhaps a deal could be struck by which the best ones are preserved as museums of art with occasional services rather than as full-time churches.
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As long as the faithful are not expected to maintain them. There's something peculiar depressing about, two things. The first is a poster of a spire shaped thermometer. The second is the people of God serving a building rather than the building serving the people of God.
Oh God yes. Assuming current trends continue, thousands of buildings have to go. In thirty years the nature of Christian community and ministry outside urban areas will have changed completely in the UK. This will be particularly painful for the C of E. I have a theory that one reason for evangelical success over the past fifty years is that they have already to some extent undergone the necessary consolidation, ironically helped by their marginalisation in the mid-20th century.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
For the CofE, that seems to be the core problem. A church of 30 members, on moderate pension, with a typical old church, is unlikely to be any more than self-sufficient.
And when all the churches in an area are at this point or less, you have an organisation that is no longer financial viable. So what do you dismantle? Close churches - what do you do with these beloved buildings? Share clergy? But that is not liable to improve matters, rather to hasten the decline?
The CofE in particular - but not exclusively - has two major draws on the finances of the members. Firstly the buildings, which are a millstone to a dying congregation, and the diocesan structure, which costs a lot (and is not bad value for money for growing or active churches). The problem is that changing or rationalising these is not a quick and simple process.
Looking from a purely business position (and I don't hold that God really gives a shit about the church structures that we are so attached to), the current model is unsustainable. I suspect that most of the other structural churches have a similar issue.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
A nearby tiny town church was down to 6 ASA when the District sent a retired clergy guy, within two years that church had 30 members and attendance as high as 70. He re-retired and was replaced with a guy who had two churches, I think he's bi-vocational, tried hard, but the church stopped growing. Some clergy are better than others at whatever it is attracts and keeps people.
That's depressing. The strong implication is that church growth is still dependent on having the right clergy.
I've a fear that at the moment, that might well be a virtual universal, but the future of Christianity might be dependent on its somehow ceasing to be.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
It depends where you are, the Diocesan structure is only a small part of the parish share in this diocese - 3%. The biggest cost is clergy stipends and pensions.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
A nearby tiny town church was down to 6 ASA when the District sent a retired clergy guy, within two years that church had 30 members and attendance as high as 70. He re-retired and was replaced with a guy who had two churches, I think he's bi-vocational, tried hard, but the church stopped growing. Some clergy are better than others at whatever it is attracts and keeps people.
That's depressing. The strong implication is that church growth is still dependent on having the right clergy.
I've a fear that at the moment, that might well be a virtual universal, but the future of Christianity might be dependent on its somehow ceasing to be.
Yes I think churches are dependent on clergy. The very structure of a worship program that has one person in front doing stuff while the rest sit in pews doing only what they are told when they are told (say "amen" here) encourages dependency. The attitude of most clergy I've met is that they do the stuff. I wanted to plan and advertise a Taize, "no I don't have time for another service." Who said anything about you being there Mr Clergyman, all I needed was a key to the building for one evening? Same response to my proposal in a different church to get a few together to do evening prayer, "no, I don't have the time."
In one place I started a prayer group; when the new clergy person arrived he declared himself the leader of the group by authority of his office. Too many clergy just assume they are in charge and no one else is/can be/should be.
Meanwhile, the people with years/decades/generations of experience that it's all run by the clergy have deeply learned they are not to do it themselves. Whether not allowed to or not capable isn't even a question, just not, altho I hear mutterings ranging from spiritual to educational incompetence as why no lay person can lead a worship service. Which I suppose is why people can be visited in the hospital by half a dozen from the church and complain that the church never visited if the clergy didn't visit. We have structurally defined church as what the clergy does. Not in words, everyone knows the "2 or 3" verse, but in experience of "going to church."
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
One of the advantages of the CofE having an interregnum between incumbents is that it can enable things to happen without clergy. Though it requires some willingness to 'take risks' by those in charge, if the new incumbent is willing to go with the new things - and stay out of the way - it can be good.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
If one community/ area has many churches.....could that not be seen as picky.. by those outside of the faith?
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
It depends where you are, the Diocesan structure is only a small part of the parish share in this diocese - 3%. The biggest cost is clergy stipends and pensions.
I am including the pay of the clergy, because churches do not always pay for their own clergy.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
One of the advantages of the CofE having an interregnum between incumbents is that it can enable things to happen without clergy. Though it requires some willingness to 'take risks' by those in charge, if the new incumbent is willing to go with the new things - and stay out of the way - it can be good.
It sounds good in theory - sadly in practice, I have never seen that happen.
Having been through quite a few interregna and observed many others in different churches, most of the time interregna bring a decline, both what goes on inside a church and in congregation numbers. Some years ago I saw some figures that claimed that most churches saw a 10% drop in attendance in interregna.
The only church which I saw maintain it’s programme of events, was one I attended and the outgoing vicar put into place some very rigorous succession planning. Even there people went to other churches just because they didn’t like the interregnum, we tried saying that vicars come and go but the congregations outlasts them, but some people just didn’t like a church without its clergy..
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Some years ago I saw some figures that claimed that most churches saw a 10% drop in attendance in interregna.
The only church which I saw maintain it’s programme of events, was one I attended and the outgoing vicar put into place some very rigorous succession planning.
I was once in a church which grew significantly during a 12 month interregnum. The vicar who had left, and his two predecessors, had encouraged the development of a strong lay leadership and lots of participation by everyone.
Sadly, the incoming vicar stopped all the activities his predecessors had encouraged. As Belle Ringer says, HE had to be in charge of everything.
So yes, IME the personality of the vicar is highly important for church growth.
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Some years ago I saw some figures that claimed that most churches saw a 10% drop in attendance in interregna.
The only church which I saw maintain it’s programme of events, was one I attended and the outgoing vicar put into place some very rigorous succession planning.
I was once in a church which grew significantly during a 12 month interregnum. The vicar who had left, and his two predecessors, had encouraged the development of a strong lay leadership and lots of participation by everyone.
Sadly, the incoming vicar stopped all the activities his predecessors had encouraged. As Belle Ringer says, HE had to be in charge of everything.
So yes, IME the personality of the vicar is highly important for church growth.
I have a response on this, which I posted to the parish administration thread, as it seemed to me more pertinent there.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
I've seen a few churches on the further end of the conservative evangelical spectrum die. These seem to be more subject to 'market forces' than other churches, given that they are essentially congregational, so a slump in the congregation and giving has direct impacts on the church.
Generally speaking, what seems to happen is that the congregation gets progressively older, often with the people who joined earlier in life remaining until they are into retirement age. These keep things going for quite a few more years, often supporting a pastorate until people die and there is too small a congregation to pay for a pastor. Sometimes they can persuade a retired pastor to come for a few years on a semi-retired basis, but then he retires and things rumble on until there is a major crisis - such as an unexpected repair - and the thing suddenly goes down like a pack of cards. Then it is essentially over, depending on who exactly is the trustee of the building and so on.
It doesn't always work out like that - I know one chapel which went down to a few old ladies for a considerable time (years) before there was an influx of people and steady growth again.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
... I think many Western churches are having a hard time. Sometimes I think it's their own fault.
There are churches and churches.
What exactly this mean? OliviaG
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
^ does
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
In the ELCA our bishops have recently become fond of the word "nimble," as in the church needing to be nimble in re-structuring itself to accomodate the changes in demographics* and Zeitgeist that have led to struggling/non-viable congregations.
*In these sorts of discussions, in the midst of rending our collective garments over whatever we think we've done wrong in terms of losing membership, it's helpful to step back and also consider that, thanks to Baby Boomers and their parents, membership numbers were unusually high during mid-/late 20th century. So part of what feels like abandonment is just the pig, so to speak, having passed through the python. It's not just about the Church somehow missing the mark in terms of retaining people.
Anyway...I was thinking about that word today while talking to our antique-mall landlord, a devout RC. At Mass this morning the congregation was informed that the RCC was planning to close what sounded like half its existing parishes in the US, consolidate dioceses and the like. His congregation used to vie with the United Methodists in town for the title of largest church; they used to have daily Mass plus several Masses on the weekends, and also had a well-attended parochial school, plus a mission. Last year the school closed. Now it sounds as if area RC's may wind up with no church and no school, and having to drive at least 20 miles in any direction to get to church at least once a week...and no word about the fate of the mission, which is an important part of the community's social-services options for the poor and working poor.
The Lutheran churches in the area are far more robust, but we're operating these days with anxiety for the future, especially as middle-class jobs bleed away, leading to general population loss in our area AND decreased numbers of retirees chosing to spend their golden years here; comfortably middle-class pensioners have been one of the few growth sectors in our local population over the years.
Anyway...I think we have an advantage in nimbleness simply because we have more flexibility in whom we allow to minister in what ways, and because we don't burden the faithful with ideas like days of obligation, which are going to become an increasing burden if RC churches out here in the country continue to consolidate and people have to drive farther and farther to Mass. I think the RC's have the advantage in encouraging a domestic spirituality that keeps the faithful engaged with their faith even without regular access to organized parish life. But I wonder about religious formation, and how long that "domestic church" ethos is going to be able to hold up. (I admit to wishing that more of us Lutherans possessed it in the first place.) It just seems as if people are going to wind up falling through increasingly large cracks in our church systems, making church affiliation even less attractive/fulfilling.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
A clerical aquaintence once remarked that he wished it would actually go like that as soon as possible, as the people who attended baptisms, weddings and funerals who were technically non-church, were much nicer and didn't tend to interfere.
I am appalled by people who seem to think that churchgoers should give the church loads of money and yet never get involved or query, or question what that money should be spent on. If you give money you are involved, whether they like it or not. It would be bad stewardship to do otherwise.
By all means attract the casual attenders as well, but churches need committed regular and involved supporters too.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
... I think many Western churches are having a hard time. Sometimes I think it's their own fault.
There are churches and churches.
What exactly this mean? OliviaG
I thought that would be fairly simple to decrypt.
Some churches seem "alive" and others "comatose".
Ordinary people have a way of sussing this out.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I think many Western churches are having a hard time. Sometimes I think it's their own fault.
There are churches and churches. ...
I thought that would be fairly simple to decrypt.
Some churches seem "alive" and others "comatose".
Ordinary people have a way of sussing this out.
OK, I'll try again (maybe I'm not ordinary). What makes a church alive / comatose? If it is sometimes their own fault, as you say, what did they do? How can they fix it? How does one tell the difference between churches and churches? OliviaG
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I think it is incumbent upon every individual and every church to attempt to find their own way through this, OliviaG.
Quite frankly, I feel myself woefully inadequate to provide guidance on this one.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Could it be as a state church the Church of England just got too complacent, assuming that everyone within the shadow of the spire was a member of the parish?
A while back there was a thread on why people are turned off towards the church. As I recall the primary strike was it's attitudes toward same sex relationships followed by the perceived differences between faith and science. I am not a scientist myself, but my pastor--who is a man of deep faith--is also a scientist, so that is not too big of a problem to overcome.
I think other things also get in the way: the lack of evangelical zeal among the parishioners. I believe it is an error to think it is the vicar/pastor's responsibility to bring the people in. I recall reading somewhere that a pastor would have to invite seventeen people before one person would respond. On the other hand a lay person would only have to invite three friends before one will respond. Pastors are there to provide word and sacrament and to help in the equipping of the saints, but the saints have to do the work of evangelism.
Somethings we have found very effective in our parish: we practice intentional hospitality. When new people come, there are several of us who meet them and introduce them to other members. We have hosted block parties for our neighbors--just last year as we were finishing our July block party a Chinese man appeared. He liked the music we had, he said. In the following weeks he brought his family. Soon we hope to formally welcome into the church at the baptism of his family and him. A look at our nursery is revealing: we have a Chinese boy, to Nigerian children, a boy from Ecuador and a Korean American girl.
We also promote ourselves on the World Wide Web and Facebook. I am in charge of Facebook advertising. For about $50 a month we have developed a reach that goes far beyond our community. Upwards of 15,000 people have seen our advertisements at least once. We have had people from Africa, Europe, Asia and the Americas check us out--a world wide reach for just $50 a month!
We are constantly getting the Word out at community activities, through one on one contacts and through the media.
I would say we have a good mix of people. Young families, Young single adults; middle aged families; and older generation. My wife and I find ourselves moving into that last category more and more. We enjoy our young families just as much as we honor our elders.
Just this morning, during coffee a woman who has visited the congregation a couple of times with her son approached me. Six years ago her son started school at WSU. He was from Kansas and did not know anyone in the congregation. We took him under our wing and invited him over to dinner several times. The woman told me much she and her husband appreciated our hospitality--she was almost in tears when she spoke to me. She said her son really felt he belonged to the church when he met us.
We still practice hospitality. I pick up a young man who has no transportation ever Sunday. We have a Chinese student we keep in contact with. We have hosted a young man from Botswana while he was here getting his doctorate.
Doesn't take much to practice hospitality, but I can tell you the rewards are outstanding.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I think it is incumbent upon every individual and every church to attempt to find their own way through this, OliviaG.
Quite frankly, I feel myself woefully inadequate to provide guidance on this one.
The Spirit blows where He wills - but I have a sneaking suspicion that even He has problems working in situations where people don't believe He might actually do anything ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Beyond that, I would tend to argue that the 'wrong' position on homosexuality is a block to His work... but let's resist the temptation to go there.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
ES
If you just change the pronoun for the Holy Spirit, I am very much in agreement with you.
Paul said everyone has gifts for the building up of the church. If only people would believe the Holy Spirit can work her will through them.
(Okay, I know my use of the feminine pronoun might be something to discuss in Kerygma, but you get my point.)
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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