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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Ordinariate repays £1 million
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Thanks to Man With a Stick, who provides some useful detail.
Basilica writes: quote:
I know a lot of people are slightly sceptical, however, about the long-term viability of the Ordinariate: after the current generation has passed, will there be a successor generation? Or will people join the mainstream Catholic tradition?
I presume that they will continue, much as the quite small Italo-Albanese jurisdictions maintained Byzantine traditions in southern Italy for the past fifteen centuries. I suppose it's possible that the OLW folk may die out for lack of reproductive activities but they may attract a stream (or trickle, depending on your viewpoint) of converts. I know of one eastern Catholic jurisdiction in Canada which is likely to die out on account of its population assimilating to the mainstream RCs, but other jurisdictions are likely to continue for the imaginable future.
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egg
Shipmate
# 3982
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
The objects of the charity are limited to the advancement of the catholic faith in the Anglican Tradition.
I don't think the Roman Catholic church is in the Anglican Tradition.
Yes, Badman, but you don't get to make that call. It is at least arguable, as I said earlier, that the Ordinariate is precisely about maintaining some parts of the not easily defined notion of Anglican Tradition in communion with the rest of the Catholic Church.
quote:
The CBS is there for those who believe that the Church of England is part of the catholic church. The Ordinariate is there for those who think that it isn't.
So say you. That isn't what it's objects of the Charity say and neither is that what the Commission found.
quote:
And, as for disagreement, the Charity Commission is an independent and expert body which has decided the issue. The former trustees are neither independent nor expert. Their lawyers do not decide, they only advise, and their advice has been proved to be wrong. Absent an appeal, this is no longer a matter of opinion.
Have you actually read the Commission's decision?
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egg
Posts: 110 | From: London UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
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Posted
I'm hoping link works. It's an online version of the approved Ordinariate OLW Calendar.
I have very few details as to what the approved Mass will look like. As to which mass version will be used once it has been approved, I imagine the answer will be 'both' - with the balance different in each group.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Hezekiah
Apprentice
# 17157
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Posted
Does anyone know of a single Ordinariate priest who used Anglican liturgy before joining? I certainly don't.
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2 Kings 3:27
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
If the Eucharistic rites contained in the Book of Divine Worship are rather unfamiliar to UK OLW folks, this is more to do with their previous non-use of the BCP-derived options in Common Worship as well as the CW modern language prayers than with the fact that the BDW is based on the American BCP. The Book of Divine Worship incorporates the Rite I Eucharistic order from the US 1979 BCP, with one of the RC eucharistic prayers being substituted for the usual BCP one (in practice, IME, this is usually the traditional Roman canon that gets used). The Rite I order is essentially a tweaked Cranmerian liturgy with aspects of the original 1549-Scottish order that has always been used in TEC as opposed to the 1552-1662 English order. Rite II is a streamlined modern language order that is similar to analogous options in CW.
I can't imagine that the eventual Anglican liturgies for use in the Ordinariates world-wide will be greatly different to the BDW. I would think only that there might be some tweaking of the traditional language texts away from the slightly modernised and Americanised 1979 BCP versions and toward the traditional versions maintained in CW and in older BCPs. Still, those won't be very familiar things to most OLW folk, whilst in the USA, all older Ordinariate people will be familiar with most of it, since these few bits of language had continued through the era of the (TEC) 1928 BCP, i.e. until the advent of the 1979 book and even longer (to the present) in the liturgies of many of the "continuing" traditionalist Anglican/Episcopalians.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hezekiah:
Does anyone know of a single Ordinariate priest who used Anglican liturgy before joining? I certainly don't. [/QUOTE
I realise you are referring to the UK situation, but in the USA they all used Anglican liturgy before joining the Ordinariate.
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The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hezekiah:
Does anyone know of a single Ordinariate priest who used Anglican liturgy before joining? I certainly don't.
Yes, several.
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Hezekiah
Apprentice
# 17157
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Posted
Well, they're certainly a small minority.
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2 Kings 3:27
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The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hezekiah:
Well, they're certainly a small minority.
A majority used 'Anglican liturgy'. In fact, now I think about it, all of them will have (weddings, for example).
Admittedly, a minority will have regularly used entirely Anglican liturgy in a eucharistic service.
However, a duly approved Anglican eucharistic liturgy will likely appeal to those of them whose reasoning for using parts of the Novus Ordo was due to perceived inadequacies in the eucharistic theology of the authorised Anglican rites at the time. Once this 'problem' has been ironed out by the CDF and the CDW, I think it will be embraced.
And anyway, in my opinion, I think they'll have to embrace it if they have a long-term distinctive personality within the Catholic mainstream.
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ardmacha
Shipmate
# 16499
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Posted
I took up the idea of going to an Ordinariate service recently ; an ordination and found NO signs of any anglican spirit,pietas,patrimony, tradition except two anglican hymns. The service was very much like a modern RC Low church service: Bishop and assistants on a podium facing us (behind the Forward altar), Altar Girls, some good vestments,others foul, cassock albs,Handshake of peace. The spirit and atmosphere bore no resemblance to an Anglican one and,you know, I think they all loved it. It seems that the Ordinariate clergy were all Modern Roman Catholics in communion with the See of Canterbury. One was asked what DID they want to bring into the Roman church and there was a long pause and finally: Well we could have a sort of Evensong. The people seem fine,serious good people but not much of the old Anglican spirit. I wish I had stayed at the Solemn evening Mass at Westminster cathedral, at least that had integrity and realism.
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
I looked up "patrimony" in the dictionary and it showed a picture of a fig leaf.
Honestly was there ever a bigger crock of shit?
AtB, Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
I looked up "patrimony" in the dictionary and it showed a picture of a fig leaf.
Honestly was there ever a bigger crock of shit?
AtB, Pyx_e
Gee whiz Pyx_e, those of us who continue in the Canterbury line deal with so many steaming crocks on a daily basis that it ill behooves us to point out the steaming crocks of others.
If any shipmate happens to be able to MW an Ordinariate service in Canada, the US, or Oz, we might all be in a better position to pontificate.
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Gee whiz Pyx_e, those of us who continue in the Canterbury line deal with so many steaming crocks on a daily basis that it ill behooves us to point out the steaming crocks of others.
Yeah but I was taught a vital difference.
AtB, Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
If any shipmate happens to be able to MW an Ordinariate service in Canada, the US, or Oz, we might all be in a better position to pontificate.
I can only report second hand that a recent ordination in Philadelphia was a NO mass with some "Anglican" accretions - Burgess Plainsong minor propers and several traditional "Anglican hymns".
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Hezekiah
Apprentice
# 17157
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Posted
What makes a hymn part of Anglican patrimony? Any Catholic can use hymns written by Anglicans if they wish. Hymns have never been allocated by denomination.
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2 Kings 3:27
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
If any shipmate happens to be able to MW an Ordinariate service in Canada, the US, or Oz, we might all be in a better position to pontificate.
I can only report second hand that a recent ordination in Philadelphia was a NO mass with some "Anglican" accretions - Burgess Plainsong minor propers and several traditional "Anglican hymns".
That might perhaps not be surprising for an ordination but isn't the kind of eucharistic liturgy the Anglican Use RC parishes have been doing from the BDW, especially in Texas where all their flagship parishes are and which will presumably all be joining up with the Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter, if they haven't yet done so (alternatively, AIUI they can opt to remain personal parishes within their own geographical dioceses).
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hezekiah:
What makes a hymn part of Anglican patrimony? Any Catholic can use hymns written by Anglicans if they wish. Hymns have never been allocated by denomination.
Nothing. Singing them is the Anglican patrimony bit.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I realise that I have been pushing out into Ecclesiantical territory, but I'm going to push the envelope just a bit further and post this video of an Anglican Use RC Eucharist according to the liturgy of the Book of Divine Worship. It's just an illustration of North American Roman Catholics maintaining Anglican liturgical patrimony. The setting of the Kyrie, for non-North Americans, is by Healey Willan and is part of the most beloved traditional Communion Service used in TEC.
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egg
Shipmate
# 3982
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Posted
Sorry about the mistaken post at 12.48 - it was not intended to go out in anything like that form. Revised version below:
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
__________________________________________________
(Badman)
The CBS is there for those who believe that the Church of England is part of the catholic church. The Ordinariate is there for those who think that it isn't.
__________________________________________________
So say you. That isn't what it's objects of the Charity say and neither is that what the Commission found.
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Badman’s summary is neat and accurate. The objects of the charity did not need to spell out the fact that it was and always had been a Church of England charity. The rules of membership, until the Constitution was changed in 2010 to allow the admission of members of the (as yet unformed) Ordinariate, required members to be members of the Church of England or of a church in full communion therewith (1999 Constitution Rule 5.2: ‘Membership of the Confraternity shall be open to communicant members of the Church of England and Churches in full communion with the Church of England who also support the Objects, accept the catholic faith and observe the practices of the catholic religion.’)
What the Charity Commission found was that the decision to pay £1 million to the Ordinariate was invalid because the majority of the trustees had a (financial) personal interest in the decision; and that it was also in breach of the charity’s governing document.
As for the use made by the CBS of its income, it is a good deal more than merely providing vessels and vestments to Anglo-Catholic parishes as appears to have been suggested. The income is fully utilised, and is needed for the work of the Confraternity. The Trustees’ Annual Reports for the past five years or more have set out some of its activities:
“ln furtherance of its objects the Confraternity organises services and meetings at national, District and local Ward level. lt publishes a Manual of devotions for public and private use by Associates. The Quarterly contains Eucharistic teaching and also contains lntercessions to help Associates fulfil the second Object (prayer for one another at the Eucharist). lt encourages adherence to the third Object (careful preparation for and reception of Holy Communion, including the Eucharistic fast), by teaching through the Manual and Quarterly and by example in its own services. lt gives grants of vessels and vestments to parishes at home and abroad for the reverent celebration and Reservation of the Eucharist. lt also provides funding to other groups for purposes which reflect the Confraternity's Objects; this includes efforts to ensure that there will continue to be priests ordained in accordance with traditional Catholic order and sacraments on which Catholics can rely within the Church of England” (Report for year ending 31 January 2011 - note the last five words, signed by Fr Christopher Lindlar, then Secretary-General of the CBS, at a time when he was already, I think, a member of the Ordinariate)).
It does not seem to me that there can be any doubt that the decision of the Charity Commission was correct, and that the Ordinariate was right to return the £1 million with interest.
[ 02. July 2012, 15:08: Message edited by: egg ]
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egg
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Gee whiz Pyx_e, those of us who continue in the Canterbury line deal with so many steaming crocks on a daily basis that it ill behooves us to point out the steaming crocks of others.
Yeah but I was taught a vital difference.
AtB, Pyx_e
Not to beat this topic further, but I claim supremacy in this topic on the grounds of having prepared correspondence, briefings, and speaking notes for five Liberal and seven Conservative ministers, as well as for having analyzed decades of messaging, texts, and synodical documents on a certain dead horse. I know a crock when I see one.
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
The objects of the charity are limited to the advancement of the catholic faith in the Anglican Tradition.
And how do you determine what constitutes ‘the Anglican Tradition’? Is it ‘being in communion with +Canterbury’? Or ‘sharing the same doctrines?’ If it’s eiter of those, then the CBS couldn’t ever give anything to continuing anglican churches, since they are not in communion with +Canterbury, and since they clearly have differences in doctrine, including views on the ordination of women.
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
I don't think the Roman Catholic church is in the Anglican Tradition.
But why, exactly? What makes it different from, say, the TAC? The TAC has other doctrines than the CofE. It doesn’t matter if you, or the CofE, calls it an adiaphoron, since they don’t. The question is what constitutes ‘the Anglican tradition.’
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
The CBS is there for those who believe that the Church of England is part of the catholic church. The Ordinariate is there for those who think that it isn't.
So you would then exclude any continuing anglican body? Many of them doesn’t believe that the CofE is part of the catholic church.
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
And, as for disagreement, the Charity Commission is an independent and expert body which has decided the issue. The former trustees are neither independent nor expert. Their lawyers do not decide, they only advise, and their advice has been proved to be wrong. Absent an appeal, this is no longer a matter of opinion.
Yes, but it seems that the catholicity or possible non-anglicanicity of the Ordinariate had nothing to do with that decision. It seems more as case of a conflict of interest.
And I can also note that the CBS, as I’ve been told, has members in the (Lutheran) Church of Sweden.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
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ardmacha
Shipmate
# 16499
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Posted
I decided to go to an Ordinariate service. I was very disappointed: no sign of any Anglican style,spirit,vesture - two fine old Anglican hymns - apart from that, just an ordinary Modern RC service, the Sacred ministers grinning behind an altar table, altar girls, cassock albs. I cannot see what Anglican Patrimony has been brought. Most of the Ordinariate people seem happy with the New Mass, Divine Office, hand shakes of peace. I should have stuck with the Solemn evening Mass at Westminster Cathedral,at least that seemed real and has integrity.
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ardmacha:
I decided to go to an Ordinariate service. I was very disappointed: no sign of any Anglican style,spirit,vesture - two fine old Anglican hymns - apart from that, just an ordinary Modern RC service, the Sacred ministers grinning behind an altar table, altar girls, cassock albs. I cannot see what Anglican Patrimony has been brought. Most of the Ordinariate people seem happy with the New Mass, Divine Office, hand shakes of peace. I should have stuck with the Solemn evening Mass at Westminster Cathedral,at least that seemed real and has integrity.
I'm sorry to hear it. I rather hoped that the RCC would gain a certain innovative gracefulness and lovely stuffiness in some of their liturgy. Ah, well.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Magic Wand
Shipmate
# 4227
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
If any shipmate happens to be able to MW an Ordinariate service in Canada, the US, or Oz, we might all be in a better position to pontificate.
I can only report second hand that a recent ordination in Philadelphia was a NO mass with some "Anglican" accretions - Burgess Plainsong minor propers and several traditional "Anglican hymns".
It was desired in this case to have a more distinctive Ordinariate (B.D.W.) liturgy, but prohibited by the ordaining bishop. I think if you attended a regular Sunday service you'd find much more of the Anglican Patrimony.
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
So I wrote to Websters and asked them to add to the "fig leaf" entry.
I suggested: Patrimony, including some minor liturgical changes to justify wondering off with £1,000,000.
I will let you know if they reply.
AtB, Pyx_e, who grew out of obssesing about the liturgy or deluding myself that the vast majority of the unchurched gave a monkies about who wrote the damn hymn by the age of 12.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Wand:
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
If any shipmate happens to be able to MW an Ordinariate service in Canada, the US, or Oz, we might all be in a better position to pontificate.
I can only report second hand that a recent ordination in Philadelphia was a NO mass with some "Anglican" accretions - Burgess Plainsong minor propers and several traditional "Anglican hymns".
It was desired in this case to have a more distinctive Ordinariate (B.D.W.) liturgy, but prohibited by the ordaining bishop. I think if you attended a regular Sunday service you'd find much more of the Anglican Patrimony.
I had myself thought of the more benign explanation that an ordaining RC bishop wouldn't be familiar with the BDW liturgy and hence would want to use the standard NO liturgy. It's truly dismaying if the bishop, in a more negative sense, actually prohibited the use of the BDW against the wishes of the congregation in the ordination mass.
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ardmacha:
I decided to go to an Ordinariate service. I was very disappointed: no sign of any Anglican style,spirit,vesture - two fine old Anglican hymns - apart from that, just an ordinary Modern RC service, the Sacred ministers grinning behind an altar table, altar girls, cassock albs. I cannot see what Anglican Patrimony has been brought. Most of the Ordinariate people seem happy with the New Mass, Divine Office, hand shakes of peace. I should have stuck with the Solemn evening Mass at Westminster Cathedral,at least that seemed real and has integrity.
I was asked to go to an Ordinariate service. It was a first Mass in Oxford. It was markedly distinct from modern Catholic practice. It was celebrated ad orientem in English, using the new translation of the Roman Missal, with beautiful choral music and hymns I have rarely heard in the Catholic Church. The preaching was of an astonishingly high standard and much longer than usual in the Catholic Church. It lasted more than an hour.
I was asked to go to another Ordinariate service. It was a Mass celebrated by the Ordinary. It, too, was markedly distinct from modern Catholic practice. It, too, was celebrated ad orientem in English, but this time using the Book of Divine Worship. I was struck by how much of the BCP Communion Service from my schooldays there appeared to be. The music and hymnody was distinctively Anglican (Stanford, Merbecke, Ken, Keble and John Mason Neale) and sung/performed to a very high standard) and the Ordinary preached - in a style and at a length that Catholic bishops would never dare.
Mileage varies, I guess.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
That might perhaps not be surprising for an ordination but isn't the kind of eucharistic liturgy the Anglican Use RC parishes have been doing from the BDW, especially in Texas where all their flagship parishes are and which will presumably all be joining up with the Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter, if they haven't yet done so (alternatively, AIUI they can opt to remain personal parishes within their own geographical dioceses).
I gather O L of the Atonement will not be going the Ordinariate but will remain and Anglican Use parish - does that make any sense to anyone? To me it adds to the confusion.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Maureen Lash
Apprentice
# 17192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
does that make any sense to anyone? To me it adds to the confusion.
It makes sense if they do not wish to be subject to the Ordinary, I should have thought.
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Trisagion: quote:
I was asked to go to an Ordinariate service. It was a first Mass in Oxford. It was markedly distinct from modern Catholic practice. It was celebrated ad orientem in English, using the new translation of the Roman Missal, with beautiful choral music and hymns I have rarely heard in the Catholic Church. The preaching was of an astonishingly high standard and much longer than usual in the Catholic Church. It lasted more than an hour.
The sermon? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Or the Mass? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I'm glad to hear your report. I honestly thought the Ordinariate was an excellent idea, where Anglican Christians who were called to join the Roman Catholic Church would have something of special value to bring to the table. As long as the theology is in line with their new church and they have approval from their bishop, I think renewed attention to a more formal beauty in liturgy is a real blessing to the RCC.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
My bad ![[Frown]](frown.gif) . The Mass.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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ardmacha
Shipmate
# 16499
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Posted
You have had a fortunate experience,Trisagion. but then the Oxford Oratory provides a very and unusually high standard of liturgical worship,as do the other English Oratories. Sadly, they are exception and not the rule. Many English Catholics hope/have hoped that the Ordinariate will improve the style of worship in England.
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
For the record, neither Mass was at the Oxford Oratory.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
My bad . The Mass.
Happy for the correction - I had thought the same thing!
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Wand:
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
If any shipmate happens to be able to MW an Ordinariate service in Canada, the US, or Oz, we might all be in a better position to pontificate.
I can only report second hand that a recent ordination in Philadelphia was a NO mass with some "Anglican" accretions - Burgess Plainsong minor propers and several traditional "Anglican hymns".
It was desired in this case to have a more distinctive Ordinariate (B.D.W.) liturgy, but prohibited by the ordaining bishop. I think if you attended a regular Sunday service you'd find much more of the Anglican Patrimony.
I had myself thought of the more benign explanation that an ordaining RC bishop wouldn't be familiar with the BDW liturgy and hence would want to use the standard NO liturgy. It's truly dismaying if the bishop, in a more negative sense, actually prohibited the use of the BDW against the wishes of the congregation in the ordination mass.
Yes. It is sad,hopefully such things won't occur in the future. This here is the usual order of worship. On a similar note, this isn't the Book of Divine Worship, but there is also This Video of Mount Calvary church, Baltimore.
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http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
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Maureen Lash
Apprentice
# 17192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ardmacha:
You have had a fortunate experience,Trisagion. but then the Oxford Oratory provides a very and unusually high standard of liturgical worship,as do the other English Oratories.
No longer so the Birmingham Oratory, I regret to say. Not since they sacked all the competent staff.
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
That might perhaps not be surprising for an ordination but isn't the kind of eucharistic liturgy the Anglican Use RC parishes have been doing from the BDW, especially in Texas where all their flagship parishes are and which will presumably all be joining up with the Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter, if they haven't yet done so (alternatively, AIUI they can opt to remain personal parishes within their own geographical dioceses).
I gather O L of the Atonement will not be going the Ordinariate but will remain and Anglican Use parish - does that make any sense to anyone? To me it adds to the confusion.
I believe the issue with OLA is that the majority of the congregation is cradle RC of non-Anglican background thus not eligible (in the ordinary course of events) under the terms of AC to join the Ordinariate. I don't believe the matter is dead but certainly it has been kicked into the long grass for the foreseeable future.
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Comper's Child
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# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
Yes. It is sad,hopefully such things won't occur in the future. This here is the usual order of worship.
Yes but hardly an authorised version - it will be interesting to see what is eventually set forth.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
Yes. It is sad,hopefully such things won't occur in the future. This here is the usual order of worship.
Yes but hardly an authorised version - it will be interesting to see what is eventually set forth.
Well, it't the BDW Rite I Eucharistic order authorised for the Anglican Use/Special Pastoral Provision in N. America. And hasn't it been authorised for interim use by Ordinariate parishes until a definitive Ordinariate liturgy is formulated? The only thing I don't think is strictly part of the BDW tradition is the use of Latin outside choral settings of the Mass Ordinary.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
I'm hoping link works. It's an online version of the approved Ordinariate OLW Calendar.
I have very few details as to what the approved Mass will look like. As to which mass version will be used once it has been approved, I imagine the answer will be 'both' - with the balance different in each group.
I've probably got the wrong end of the stick. But what is the status and source of the Morning and Evening Prayer that are linked on from this page? They bear little resemblance either to BCP Matins or Evensong or CW daily prayer.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
But what is the status and source of the Morning and Evening Prayer that are linked on from this page? They bear little resemblance either to BCP Matins or Evensong or CW daily prayer.
Looks fairly similar to Common Worship to me. But even more of course to the (post Vatican 2) RC Divine Office.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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The Man with a Stick
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# 12664
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
I'm hoping link works. It's an online version of the approved Ordinariate OLW Calendar.
I have very few details as to what the approved Mass will look like. As to which mass version will be used once it has been approved, I imagine the answer will be 'both' - with the balance different in each group.
I've probably got the wrong end of the stick. But what is the status and source of the Morning and Evening Prayer that are linked on from this page? They bear little resemblance either to BCP Matins or Evensong or CW daily prayer.
Nowt to do with the Ordinariate at all, I think. Universalis have kindly put up the Ordinariate Calendar - but I think those are their general links to Morning and Evening prayer templates (with the specific readings etc inserted).
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
Again, the daily offices in the BDW are essentially the American versions of the BCP
Offices.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Magic Wand
Shipmate
# 4227
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
Yes. It is sad,hopefully such things won't occur in the future. This here is the usual order of worship.
Yes but hardly an authorised version - it will be interesting to see what is eventually set forth.
As far as I can tell, this is Rite I from the B.D.W., and so entirely authorized for the Ordinariate. What modifications do you notice?
Posts: 371 | From: Princeton, NJ | Registered: Mar 2003
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CL
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# 16145
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Posted
Speaking of the liturgical aspects of the Ordinariate(s), the first common texts have been promulgated by Rome; the Order for Funerals and the Order for Marriage. I've started a thread in Ecclesiantics: http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=007536
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Justinian
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# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rugbyplayingpriest:
Law will only ever reflect the legalities of a situation and does not sort right from wrong. I felt a split was reasonable- 50/50 is what would happen in a divorce.
Nevertheless I can see why some are pleased that a legal process went their way, and do not blame them for feeling happy. Well done! But... and it is HUGE...
I am perplexed at the attitude of many I thought were friends. People who once claimed to seek unity with Rome. Who you might imagine, would have wanted to see the Ordinariate flourish, if only as an insurance policy! But instead we had that vile Facebook page which, if I was still an Anglican, would shame me very, very deeply. It was frankly awful.
According to many observers, and according to the Charity Commission, the Odinariate literally tried to steal a million pounds from the Anglican Church.
And there is a difference between the way you treat people you have disagreements with who you think are honest, and people who you disagree with who steal a million pounds. That peoples attitudes to you changed after your group stole a million pounds doesn't mean they've changed. It means they object to you stealing a million pounds. And they find the idea of people they were once friends with stealing a million pounds to shame them far more than any facebook postings ever could.
Hope that helped (I don't have a dog in the fight).
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
According to many observers, and according to the Charity Commission, the Odinariate literally tried to steal a million pounds from the Anglican Church.
Not up to your usually scrupulous standards of accuracy this, Justinian. The Charity Commission didn't find anything "literally" of the sort. The CBS is not the Anglican Church, nor anything like it. The Commission found that an unquorate trustees' meeting resolved to do something the commission doubt they have the power to do even if quorate and that a number of trustees were conflicted and should not have participated in the decision.
quote:
Hope that helped (I don't have a dog in the fight).
Just as well for the dog.
BTW, I know it was a typo, but I really like the idea of an Odinariate. A new canonical structure to bring Norse pagans into the full communion of the Catholic Church.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
According to many observers, and according to the Charity Commission, the Odinariate literally tried to steal a million pounds from the Anglican Church.
Not up to your usually scrupulous standards of accuracy this, Justinian. The Charity Commission didn't find anything "literally" of the sort. The CBS is not the Anglican Church, nor anything like it. The Commission found that an unquorate trustees' meeting resolved to do something the commission doubt they have the power to do even if quorate and that a number of trustees were conflicted and should not have participated in the decision.
I was overspeaking there, sorry and stupidly I missed out the word almost before literally. Trying to make clear to rugbyplayingpriest why there was such a fall out. And certainly shouldn't have blamed the whole Ordinariate for the
quote:
BTW, I know it was a typo, but I really like the idea of an Odinariate. A new canonical structure to bring Norse pagans into the full communion of the Catholic Church.
... I'll have to try that on my Norse pagan friends. Although I'm sorry to say there's more chance of me moving into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church than there is them. Not that they are necessarily in what amounts to communion with all other Norse Reconstructionists; there's a big argument in the community about how to treat Loki - pre-Christian takes or post-Christian takes (not that this is relevant).
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
To seek to achieve the reconciliation of followers not of the Dove that returned to the Ark, but of the Raven that did not? Or thanksgiving to them for feeding Elijah in the wilderness?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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