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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: ++KJS and Sir Francis Drake's prayer
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
According to the Facebook page of a friend who is a clergy delegate at the General Convention of The Episcopal Church, USA, the Presiding Bishop offered the following prayer as a benediction:
quote:
Disturb us, Lord, when
We are too pleased with ourselves,
When our dreams have come true
Because we dreamed too little,
When we arrived safely
Because we sailed too close to the shore.
Disturb us, Lord, when
With the abundance of things we possess
We have lost our thirst
For the waters of life;
Having fallen in love with life,
We have ceased to dream of eternity
And in our efforts to build a new earth,
We have allowed our vision
Of the new Heaven to dim.
Disturb us, Lord, to dare more boldly,
To venture on wilder seas
Where storms will show Your mastery;
Where losing sight of land,
We shall find the stars.
We ask you to push back
The horizons of our hopes;
And to push back the future
In strength, courage, hope, and love.
This we ask in the name of our Captain,
Who is Jesus Christ.
The prayer was originally written by the British seaman and explorer Sir Francis Drake, known as a war-hero to the English and as a notorious pirate to the Spanish. He was also the third person to circumnavigate the Earth (the second to do so and return home), and the first European to land on California. Unfortunately, he also sailed under Sir John Hawkins on one of the first English slave trading expeditions. Furthermore, he was present at the Rathlin Island Massacre in Ireland. In addition, while he did not found any colonies himself, his voyages of discovery and plunder are sometimes considered instrumental in the founding of the British Empire and thus in the dispossession and extermination of native peoples around the globe. Therefore, some Episcopalians are suggesting that using a prayer by an "adventurer" is insensitive to African-Americans, Irish-Americans, and Native Americans and contravenes ECUSA's commitment to opposing racism. This has lead to much facebook drama.
So, I ask whether or not the Presiding Bishop was in the right.
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
It's a nice prayer.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
So I guess the prayer worked, then, in that people were disturbed?
In all seriousness, people should cut her a break. I am 100% sure her intentions were pure and innocent.
Can wisdom, truth, and beauty come from the mouth or pen of even a sinner? Let's hope so, or else we are doomed to a world without them.
Now, should we avoid the world of specific notorious people of history, and who ultimately gets to decide which people end up on that list? That is a sticky issue. I think the best we can do is to try our best not to cause others discomfort, and in the case of an accident (as I'm sure this was), to respectfully apologize and hopefully receive the forgiveness of those who were wronged.
[ 05. July 2012, 03:08: Message edited by: Martin L ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
avoid the words, not world.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Lutherans like to use the saint and sinner dichotomy. Sometimes--often times--there is more sinner than saint in a person.
It is not the first time prayers have taken on new meaning in a new era.
I agree that we need to be disturbed by the Holy Spirit when we travel too close to the shore. I have to say, when we get out into the deep blue we can see the stars--and they are awesome.
It is when we are disturbed we experience growth.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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SeraphimSarov
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# 4335
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Posted
A tempest in a teapot for the loony left
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
AIUI, this prayer was offered on a Monday in a hall. That is intolerably insensitive to those of us who believe deeply that no benediction be said on a Monday except in a church.
Honestly, some people need to get a life. No doubt Drake also said at some stage "Bless you" to someone who sneezed. Does that mean that it is now insensitive for anyone to say it?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
The whole problem with demonising people is that you give them no scope to be angels.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
A tempest in a teapot for the loony left
That would be my opinion as well, but I didn't want to say that right at the start. Honestly, Drake was a REALLY COOL GUY and a PIRATE, and the fact that he was an Anglican makes us cool by association. Whining about native peoples makes you look like a silly old hippy.
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Drake was a pious psychopath (if you think that's a contradiction you must not get out much). He wrote a good prayer (or at least got one attributed to him--I'm skeptical, since the language doesn't sound very Elizabethan to me, though I'm no expert). Some very unpleasant people have, over the centuries, managed to say wise things. The Lord works in mysterious ways, and sometimes has very poor taste in his servants. Get over it. As a member of the loony left, I find this embarrassing.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Much of the OT is about Holy People poaching land from their immediate owners, who -to be fair- probably poached them off some else, themselves. And then there's David and his Psalms...pretty dodgy if you ask me. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Maybe we should give Marcionism another look.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
the PB has right to ppray when & where she feels the need to, Good material source too
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Can anyone tell me what Sir Francis Drake is actually said to have prayed? Looking at the thought, sentiment, and language of this prayer it is difficult for me to imagine it being uttered before the 20th century (see 'Desiderata'!). Below is the prayer usually attributed to Drake:
Lord God, when you call your servants to endeavour any great matter, grant us also to know that it is not the beginning, but the continuing of the same, until it be thoroughly finished, which yields the true glory; through him who, for the finishing of your work, laid down his life for us, our Redeemer, Jesus Christ.
[ 05. July 2012, 06:06: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
...which, as it turns out, was actually composed by Eric Milner-White, using a sentence from one of Drake's letters:
‘There must be a begynnyng of any great matter, but the contenewing unto the end untyll it be thoroughly ffynyshed yeldes the trew glory.’
I would bet a pound of Maya Gold that the prayer KJS prayed was written sometime after 1950.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Triple post. Apologies.
No need to worry, Try.
Speaking for myself, I find that prayer wordy and a bit saccharine. It's really a sermonette by other means, and so addressed to the people who are supposed to be praying it and not to the Almighty. It's the sort of thing our 'Guide for Intercessors' was written to prevent.
However I don't think anyone needs to worry about the association with Drake. Despite being all over the web as 'Drake's prayer' there is absolutely no evidence that Drake had anything to do with it, and a great deal of internal evidence that he didn't. It is likely to turn out to have been entirely written by someone from Terre Haute, Indiana: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiderata
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Maybe we should give Marcionism another look.
Yes, because editing out problems and inconvenciences is always so much more effective in the long term than facing and acknowledging them.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Cryptic
Shipmate
# 16917
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
The Lord works in mysterious ways, and sometimes has very poor taste in his servants.
I think that says it all. It's a great prayer.
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Illegitimi non carborundum
Posts: 225 | From: Sydney | Registered: Feb 2012
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Maybe we should give Marcionism another look.
Yes, because editing out problems and inconvenciences is always so much more effective in the long term than facing and acknowledging them.
orpheo--I think your irony meter needs adjustment.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by Amos
quote:
Lord God, when you call your servants to endeavour any great matter, grant us also to know that it is not the beginning, but the continuing of the same, until it be thoroughly finished, which yields the true glory; through him who, for the finishing of your work, laid down his life for us, our Redeemer, Jesus Christ.
This isn't quite the prayer, but it's close. I've been trying to find the original wording, which as you say does come from a letter, but Drake himself did use it as a prayer before war and massacre of natives.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
We get threads like this every so often. The devotional artwork of Eric Gill has featured more than once. Each time the same basic consensus seems to be reached: that the thing ought to be valued on its merit and not necessarily its origins.
Leaving aside origins that are of questionable morality or which have the potential to embarrass, there remains wider question of how much the hang-ups of the cognoscenti ought to impinge on the worship of the masses.
I made a similar point on a recent thread about Christianity in Japan. I linked to a video of Japanese Orthodox Christians worshipping and somebody commented that it was unfortunate that they were still using Russian chant and had not developed their own Japanese system of chant for the various parts of Orthodox services.
The point I made in response seems apt here as well, which is that in all likelihood, the majority of those Christians do not have at the forefront of their minds Sunday by Sunday that the music they are singing is distinctively Russian, if they are aware of it at all. Similarly, many of the chants used in the Russian Orthodox Church are immediately recognisable to anybody who knows the Greek originals, but if you were to cite a well-known hymn as an example and ask most Russian worshippers how they feel about having to use this Greek music, most of them would wonder what on earth you were talking about. To them, it is no more Greek than kulich, but rather it is simply their church music that they have known and loved for as long as they can remember. They made it their own long ago, and its foreign origins, while perhaps interesting, aren't really relevant to their worship.
The point is that elements of worship are adopted and embraced by the people whose hearts they move: they are owned. The person moved to contemplate the Saviour because of a sublime image that he has seen in church all his life need have no knowledge of or interest in the fact that the artist saw his whole household - his sister, his daughters, and the dog included - as fair game for the satisfaction of his sexual desires, (I was shown a reredos by Eric Gill at a school chapel I recently visited and it was beautiful). The devout Christian in Japan, who goes to the services every day and loves the hymns and prayers need have no idea of the country of origin of the tunes to which the words are set, nor is she particularly likely to care. And the person at a church convention who hears a prayer may find it inspiringly beautiful or stomach-churningly saccharine, all independently of any knowledge that it might have been penned by someone who had hobbies including assisting Irish massacres and the African slave trade, with a spot of Spanish plundering thrown in for good measure.
It is only those with particular knowledge of the history or development of these things who will know about them, and my personal view is that their almost academic hang-ups are not sufficient reason to eliminate elements of corporate worship.
Responding some years ago to the charge that some Orthodox churches, in restoring to use prayers and services that had been out of use for centuries were performing "liturgical archaeology", the now bishop of Manhattan wrote:
quote:
Those who go to church on Sunday morning are not called upon to be liturgicists or liturgical archaeologists, any more than the patient needs to be a medical scientist or go into the lab to be given medicine. The ‘finished product’ is nevertheless today’s worship; if they hear or join in texts that had been in an ancient manuscript, they need never suspect it, for all that is worth. These materials have been returned to use because they provide what was needed.
I cannot say it better.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Maybe we should give Marcionism another look.
Yes, because editing out problems and inconvenciences is always so much more effective in the long term than facing and acknowledging them.
orpheo--I think your irony meter needs adjustment.
I think both your irony-agreement-upon-initial-irony meter and your spelling need adjustment. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Try:
Therefore, some Episcopalians are suggesting that using a prayer by an "adventurer" is insensitive to African-Americans, Irish-Americans, and Native Americans and contravenes ECUSA's commitment to opposing racism.
What happens if you move to a similar problem in another sphere? During WWII some awful experiments were carried out on Jews to try and find ways to keep airmen who 'ditched' in the sea alive longer. Some argue that the results from such experiments should not be used, others (including some Holocaust survivors) that, if it now helps people survive, the suffering was not entirely wasted.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Maybe we should give Marcionism another look.
Yes, because editing out problems and inconvenciences is always so much more effective in the long term than facing and acknowledging them.
orpheo--I think your irony meter needs adjustment.
I think both your irony-agreement-upon-initial-irony meter and your spelling need adjustment.
I think I'll go to a corner and have an irony meltdown. I can't compete with Brits. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
[ 05. July 2012, 09:05: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Count me among those who doubt that a prayer containing the words quote:
Disturb us, Lord
can be attributed to Drake. Back then, they were rather more careful about what they prayed for.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Maybe we should give Marcionism another look.
Yes, because editing out problems and inconvenciences is always so much more effective in the long term than facing and acknowledging them.
orpheo--I think your irony meter needs adjustment.
I think both your irony-agreement-upon-initial-irony meter and your spelling need adjustment.
I think I'll go to a corner and have an irony meltdown. I can't compete with Brits.
Or, apparently, Aussies - or arguably geography.....
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Put me down as another who thinks this prayer owes more to Desiderata than Drake.
I also find this stanza really irritating:
quote:
Disturb us, Lord, to dare more boldly,
To venture on wilder seas
Where storms will show Your mastery;
Where losing sight of land,
We shall find the stars.
a. It suggests that physical risk taking is an inherently virtuous thing to do, as opposed to a means to an end. (Yes, I know it's supposed to be metaphorical for something else but in order to be effective as a metaphor there still has to be the suggestion that sailing on wild seas through storms is an inherently good idea.)
b. Almost certainly, the sort of people who say this prayer don't have the slightest desire to sail through wild and stormy seas, except possibly on the deck of a cruise ship.
c. I really doubt Drake would have thought like that. That is why the Prayer Book is full of prayers for calm seas and against storms.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
After a quarter hour's googling, there don't seem to be any references to this prayer before the time of Ronald Reagan's presidency. Like Ricardus, I do not think that a prayer for stormy weather could have conceivably been written by anyone with sailing experience, let alone an Elizabethan sailor. Sailors love smooth seas, safe harbours, and homeward winds.
Certainly, it reads like a late-20th century poem in its style. Whatever Sir Francis Drake's flaws or gifts, I would have to see some proof that he had anything to do with this text other than verying citations by bloggers.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
According to this blog post, it seems to have been tracked back to The Minister’s Manual, Vol. 37, a sermon helper for the year 1962, in an entry by M.K.W. Heicher, and apparently not associated with Drake at that point. That's the earliest sighting Google found for me.
Personally I would have put its feel somewhere around the 1970's, but that's perhaps not so distant from 1962.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
After a quarter hour's googling, there don't seem to be any references to this prayer before the time of Ronald Reagan's presidency. Like Ricardus, I do not think that a prayer for stormy weather could have conceivably been written by anyone with sailing experience, let alone an Elizabethan sailor. Sailors love smooth seas, safe harbours, and homeward winds.
Certainly, it reads like a late-20th century poem in its style. Whatever Sir Francis Drake's flaws or gifts, I would have to see some proof that he had anything to do with this text other than verying citations by bloggers.
Remember Mendelsshon's smooth Seas and a Prosperous Voyage ? The prosperous voyage section was that with strong winds and so forth. Smooth seas meant no wind to propel the ship, being becalmed and no progress.
[ 05. July 2012, 11:23: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
The prayer just isn't Elizabethan enough either. In the late 16th century there was widespread fear that Elizabeth's death would herald a return of the dynastic wars of the 15th century, and there were frequent threats of war with various bits of Catholic continental Europe. The last thing anyone would have prayed would be, "Tell you what, Lord - what we could really do with is a bit more trouble." It's a very 20th-century prayer, and also from that popular Anglo-American spirituality that piously and unwisely thinks that a bit of discomfort might be a good thing.
I suppose the question therefore becomes, if this had been written by a slaver, should we be using it now? Well, lots of other documents have been written by people we might not like if they were around today. Weren't some of the signatories of the Declaration of Independence slave owners?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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AntarcticPilot
Apprentice
# 17195
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Posted
There is no way the prayer as posted is from Sir Francis Drake; the language is completely anachronistic. It could, I suppose, be a 20th century paraphrase of something written by Sir Francis, but my search on the internet does not reveal any 16th century form of the words.
We should remember that until the King James version of the Bible was published, there was no standard way of writing English; it was the KJV that essentially codified English spelling and grammar.
Posts: 3 | From: Cambridgeshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2012
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Speaking for myself, I find that prayer wordy and a bit saccharine. It's really a sermonette by other means, and so addressed to the people who are supposed to be praying it and not to the Almighty.
It is attempted manipulation. I detest manipulation, especially when it's disguised as prayer.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
After a quarter hour's googling, there don't seem to be any references to this prayer before the time of Ronald Reagan's presidency. Like Ricardus, I do not think that a prayer for stormy weather could have conceivably been written by anyone with sailing experience, let alone an Elizabethan sailor. Sailors love smooth seas, safe harbours, and homeward winds.
Certainly, it reads like a late-20th century poem in its style. Whatever Sir Francis Drake's flaws or gifts, I would have to see some proof that he had anything to do with this text other than verying citations by bloggers.
Remember Mendelsshon's smooth Seas and a Prosperous Voyage ? The prosperous voyage section was that with strong winds and so forth. Smooth seas meant no wind to propel the ship, being becalmed and no progress.
GD effectively proves that I (perhaps like the Presiding Bishop) have no real first-hand experience at sailing and that my metaphors should not be trusted. But thanks for the Mendelssohn reference, which I will now check out.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
This could run and run. A wonderful opportunity to use all those bib crit techniques on something no one feels protective of.
I think it's been reworked. 'Disturb us' sounds quite modern to me, 1980s onwards, but 'Your mastery' and 'dream of eternity' sound older, and not the sort of thing that someone who began a prayer with 'Disturb us' - bold and stylish in its day - would say.
The metaphors are creaking, if not breaking up. We might want God to disturb us for sailing too close to the shore, but not, surely, for arriving safely. I'm not sure we shall find stars by leaving land, especially if we're experiencing storms and wilder seas.
I can't decide if pushing back the horizons of my hopes is a good thing or not, but I don't think pushing back the future in strength, courage, hope and love means anything at all.
A shame, because the first four lines are promising. Still, it's appropriate for a prayer that wants us to be more adventurous to take the risk of falling into incoherence in search of purple prose.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Whether he wrote this prayer or not, since Sir Francis Drake delivered my country from a Spanish invasion, if we're scoring sensitivities, I feel personally slighted that a collection of people in another country that isn't even Spain, are rejecting his prayer, not on the grounds that it might not be genuine, or that they don't agree with the sentiments of the prayer, but just because they don't like him.
If they claim they are entitled to have their sensitivities listened to, then I'm entitled to make the same claim, with in my opinion, a better justification. I accept the Spanish are entitled to view him differently, but nobody else is. If it wasn't for him, I might be writing this post in Spanish.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Lothiriel
Shipmate
# 15561
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I think it's been reworked. 'Disturb us' sounds quite modern to me, 1980s onwards, but 'Your mastery' and 'dream of eternity' sound older, and not the sort of thing that someone who began a prayer with 'Disturb us' - bold and stylish in its day - would say.
It has a bit of a ring of Drake's contemporary John Donne about it -- "Batter my heart, three person'd God". But if that prayer has any 16th century origins, it has clearly been modernized, perhaps in both language and meaning.
And I agree with Lyda*Rose that we should be careful in judging people of other times by 20th century standards.
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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery
my blog
Posts: 538 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Mar 2010
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
a good prayer regardless of the author
Each to their own, but I don't like it. Where others see its virtues, I see a kind of guilt-tripping piety that makes me suspect the author was someone who had never prayed, "Dear God ... out of the depths ... will you please stop disturbing me now?"
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Try:
Drake was a REALLY COOL GUY and a PIRATE, and the fact that he was an Anglican makes us cool by association.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
The Anglican Church needs to adopt this a slogan:
"Be Anglican. We are cool. We are pirates!"
Think of the Sunday School curriculum. Think of pirate settings for eucharist. Wow!
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Try:
The prayer was originally written by the British seaman and explorer Sir Francis Drake, known as a war-hero to the English and as a notorious pirate to the Spanish. He was also the third person to circumnavigate the Earth (the second to do so and return home), and the first European to land on California. Unfortunately, he also sailed under Sir John Hawkins on one of the first English slave trading expeditions. Furthermore, he was present at the Rathlin Island Massacre in Ireland. In addition, while he did not found any colonies himself, his voyages of discovery and plunder are sometimes considered instrumental in the founding of the British Empire and thus in the dispossession and extermination of native peoples around the globe. Therefore, some Episcopalians are suggesting that using a prayer by an "adventurer" is insensitive to African-Americans, Irish-Americans, and Native Americans and contravenes ECUSA's commitment to opposing racism. This has lead to much facebook drama.
So, I ask whether or not the Presiding Bishop was in the right.
This, of course, ignores a more important question - was the prayer she read printed on recycled paper?
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I remember reading an account, in translation of course, by a Spanish captive of Drakes who was intrigued by the way the 'heretick' Protestants chanted the Psalms rather mournfully ... but I picked up the impression that whilst he disagreed with their theology, he did find them surprisingly devout ...
Even pirates were devout in those days.
I've got a soft spot for Drake, he had an eye to the main chance. A bit of a rogue all ways round.
But of course, the Elizabethans didn't believe that it was Drake who defeated the Spanish Armada - 'God blew and they were scattered' - the Almighty himself was on their side ...
Of course, it was a combination of weather, the judicious use of fire-ships to separate the Spanish fleet and the storms did the rest ...
Probably no more than 500 died in the actual fighting. The Spanish lost loads to storms and the English lost loads of men to dysentery as they waited at Tilbury for the invasion that never came ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
The whole problem with demonising people is that you give them no scope to be angels.
I'm not quite sure if the point of this facebook fracas is to demonize ++KJS or Sir Francis Drake. It's sure to wind up being the former, so in that spirit:
Regarding the aptness of the marine metaphors, Katharine Jefferts Schori has a PhD in Oceanography (1983) from Oregon State, fer cryin' out loud. Presumably she's been on a boat. I blame her staff.
It's a dreadful prayer, stinking of middle class comfort.
[ 05. July 2012, 17:43: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It's a dreadful prayer, stinking of middle class comfort.
I am glad you said that.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Am I correct that Drake wasn't in fact a rogue pirate, but rather a privateer licensed by the Crown to operate against ships of rival powers?
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
I like Gee D's objection about it being delivered in a hall on a Monday. That's something I could really get behind.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
I'm Irish. I don't care. *Shrug*. I am however deeply offended by the prayer's eye-watering tweeness.
[ 05. July 2012, 19:42: Message edited by: Yerevan ]
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
We might want God to disturb us for sailing too close to the shore, but not, surely, for arriving safely.
True, although technically the prayer asks we be disturbed when we arrive safely because we sailed too close to the shore. IOW, thanks to our own timid actions rather than faith in God.
Still, I agree that this prayer is one of middle-class privilege. It might be OK for someone's personal devotions if they sincerely mean it, but in a large assembly like that, it really is a sermonette disguised as a prayer.
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
The person moved to contemplate the Saviour because of a sublime image that he has seen in church all his life need have no knowledge of or interest in the fact that the artist saw his whole household - his sister, his daughters, and the dog included - as fair game for the satisfaction of his sexual desires, (I was shown a reredos by Eric Gill at a school chapel I recently visited and it was beautiful).
Oh dear! Must remember to refrain from printing anything holy in Gill Sans or Perpetua.
In all seriousness, I agree with your whole post, Michael.
And I think what the undivided Church decided so long ago about the validity of Sacraments celebrated by an unworthy minister applies to all our works in our various vocations as well. I'm sure at some point the balance tips - a person's crimes may be so well-known that when we read or view their works, we just can't get past the person and their evil deeds; and in that case, the work just becomes a distraction and something else should be used.
Given that the PB was praying this prayer at General Convention, which is chock full of "cognoscenti," perhaps a different prayer might have been more appropriate if the connection with Drake were well-known (though mistaken).
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I looked up the word "disturb" in the gnome-dictionary (GNU public licence allows for free copying and use etc.). Here's some of the content.
quote:
Disturb
1. ... to
interrupt the settled state of; to excite from a state of rest. [1913 Webster]
2. To agitate the mind of; to deprive of tranquillity; to disquiet; to render uneasy; as, a person is disturbed by receiving an insult, or his mind is disturbed by envy. [1913 Webster]
3. To turn from a regular or designed course. [Obs.]
[1913 Webster]
And disturb His inmost counsels from their destined aim. --Milton.
Is not then 'disturbance' exactly what God needs to do with each soul and each community? To awaken in us the awareness of other than our selfish selves, our contentedness, even our smug self righteousness? I don't frankly believe that God is particularly interested in us feeling good, well or positive, but rather that we have faith and we try to follow faithfully. And if God knows our desires and issues before we mention them, then truly corporate prayer of petition is not intended than for other than the community.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I think we've found a suitable use for the phrase "prayer branding".
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
No_Prophet. Praying for God to disturb us is something of a cliche on the more liberal end of spectrum, right up there with dance metaphors and "comfort the afflicted, afflict the comfortable". In fact it is to liberals what "Lord, I just wanna" is to charismatics
Its also popular with the sort of people who use the term "faith journey" unironically, which obviously makes it Evil and Wrong...
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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