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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Gold Dust - now what's all that about?
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
A number of Shipmates have attested to seeing the 'gold dust' phenomenon in worship services recently.
I'd moved on from the more full-on revivalist form of charismatic evangelicalism before this apparent phenomena apparently became de-rigeur. So I've never experienced it, but looking back, I think I remember talk of it back in the mid/late '90s.
I've heard of scams and charlatanism - of a Brazilian female evangelist who used to scatter tiny plastic filings to give the impression of 'gold dust.' I've seen some of the You Tube videos.
I'm sceptical.
But I would be interested to hear on this thread from those who believe that they've seen such things, and what they make of them.
For instance, what happens to the 'dust' afterwards? Do people collect it up? If it happens in a hired hall (such as many 'new churches' still use) does it remain there for the indoor bowling group to puzzle over the next morning?
Does it get hoovered up?
Or does it just disappear as mysteriously as it apparently arrived?
I'd ask similar questions, of course, about myrrh-streaming icons in Orthodoxy or weeping statues in popular RC devotion.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a complete sceptic about miraculous claims and so on but this one makes me feel jolly uncomfortable, I must admit.
Those of you who've been around when this has happened, what is your 'take'? What is the gold-dust, what does it signify and what happens to it afterwards?
Is it a case of 'all that glisters' or are you guys onto something?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Unreformed
Shipmate
# 17203
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Posted
quote:
I'd ask similar questions, of course, about myrrh-streaming icons in Orthodoxy or weeping statues in popular RC devotion.
I'm not impressed by them, at the same time it isn't wise to laugh at people who do when "enlightened" Westerners believe in falsehoods and frauds that do far more damage.
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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day
Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
Is it a Philip Pullman thing?
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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CSL1
Shipmate
# 17168
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Posted
I don't know, God can do whatever He wishes with matter, it'd be nothing for him to turn O into AU, about as difficult for him as for us to crick our little finger, but I have noticed some of the outfits making the gold dust claims are those whom I wouldn't trust to do anything much other than to pick my pocket and distort the Bible for selfish gain. The gold dust claims seem a little out of step with biblical miracles, which generally seemed more practical (food, health, protection, life), but of course, I am not the determiner of what is and is not "out of step" for the Almighty, so this is just my hipshot opinion.
Posts: 172 | Registered: Jun 2012
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
I'm generally sceptical (I was still around charismatic evangelicalism in the 90s, but didn't see gold dust though I heard plenty about it allegedly happening elsewhere). I'd put it in a similar category as the Toronto Blessing 'manifestations' - I'm sure I've said this here before on these boards, but I was away abroad when that all arrived at my church, in 1994, and when I returned I found church meetings full of mooing and roaring and laughing and falling over and gurning and goodness knows what and I hated it all, and never could believe that - in my case - it would be anything other than autosuggestion. But. People I know and trust seemed really transformed in their daily Christian life, seemed to have a very deep experience of God, and - crucially - in many cases this depth has been sustained (and is reflected, for example, in the depth of their preaching) years later (in a way that I can't say about cynical old me) (though I have to say, as far as I know they've calmed down a lot now and dispensed with the animal noises, thank goodness). Yes they were mooing and clucking on Sunday night in church, but the rest of the week they were serving the poor and 'walking the walk' - and that's why, although remaining sceptical, I couldn't completely dismiss it. It makes no sense to me why God would do that and people would so completely dispense with their dignity when (as has been pointed out already) there are the hungry to be fed. But then Mary Magdalene's sacrifice of the perfume made no sense either, and serving the poor was the response that Judas made, and look where that got him.
It's all bonkers, I can't make head nor tail of it ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) . It's not for me, and to be honest I'm prepared to take the risk of missing out on whatever-it-is that's going on. But seeing the effect of the seemingly pointless on people I love and trust has given me pause for thought.
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
A similar position to my own view ...
But I'm wanting to hear from people who have seen or claim to have experienced this and who consider it legit'.
I'm not out to dismiss or laugh at anyone's sincerely held beliefs, but there were some folk on previous threads who claim to have seen this recently, despite their initial misgivings.
I'm interested in what they have to say. Not so I can take the mickey out of them, but because they strike me as reasonable, thinking people and I'm intrigued by how they can square that up with what they claim to have seen.
I generally think there's a rational explanation for a lot of what passes as 'miraculous' these days and a touch of the Derren Browne about some of it - but I would by no means dismiss all claims of supernatural activity etc out of hand.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Jack the Lass - I think your sense of 'disconnect' with the moo-ing and gurning and so on can easily be explained. Good people can do daft things. People walking the talk and being exemplary in other areas doesn't preclude them acting daft when under the influence of revivalist 'cues'.
This neither validates nor invalidates what happened - I'd generally say that the Toronto thing was largely down to auto-suggestion and in most instances was fairly harmless as it died down as quickly as it arose.
I was quite into it myself at the time, I stepped back though once I realised how easily this kind of behaviour could be induced given the right conditions and suggestibility.
So I don't at all doubt that the people you love and respect were capable of gullibility and credulity as well as acts of service and of genuine benefit to people. Most of what we do is mixed, either in motive or outcome.
We are all plonkers in the final analysis and we all do daft stuff - 'Who can discern his errors?'
The hope is that the good things that we do somehow outweigh the harm.
Anyway, that's another issue ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
Whats it all about? Wish i knew - we have had this phenomena in recent weeks. I can honestly claim to have a bit of first hand experience of this.
We are not doing anything significantly different in worship to what we have been doing for several years. The gold seemed to appear on peoples hands spontaneously mid-worship. No one was expecting it or led by anyone to expect it.
I am 100% sure we can eliminate charlatanism. I have known pretty much everyone affected for the best part of 10 years and none them could or would make this up. Even my good wife has had this and she is not easily hyped.
What does it look like? Well its not 'Gold dust' as in real gold dust. Its more like sparkling specks on your hands - its obvious if you put it under a light. As for sweeping onto the floor - not really seen enough to do that.
I would take the view that this is a by-product of God's presence but no substitute for it. The nearest biblical equivalent is the idea that Moses's face shone in Exodus and i wonder if that may have been similar. The key part is that God is there and not focus too much on the side effects.
Yes ( to respond to the other poster) this could take us to a bit of self indulgence but we are aware of this risk. We are quite an outward looking lot, anyway, and have also got stuff like a Foodbank, Street Pastors and CAP going on too, as well as Churches Together stuff which should keep us grounded. We have never thought 'inwardly' and a bit of gold dust, nice though it is, isn't going to change that.
So - i don't know exactly , but we see it as a welcome by-product, but one which just points to God being there - not to itself.
Watch this space.
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Any amputees got their limbs back ?
Any eyeless their sight ? Apart from by technology.
If this is God's dandruff then it's because He's shaking His head at us.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
If this is God's dandruff then it's because He's shaking His head at us.
Now that is pure gold.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Is it a Philip Pullman thing?
Personally I would much prefer it to be a Tori Amos thing, although some conservative churches might be disturbed by the connection...
...and darn it, I can't provide the appropriate link thanks to it having a bracket in the HTML. Gold Dust, classic Tori song and also the title of her upcoming orchestral album. Due out in October. She's the daughter of a church minister so God is providing advance advertising.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Any amputees got their limbs back ?
Any eyeless their sight ?
I suspect some who crossed the Red (Reed?) Sea at the parting of the waters were blind or lame. God chooses to do what God chooses to do, including one miracle but not another *we* think God should do. That what *we* think should happen doesn't, is no indication that what *did* happen is fraud.
I've never seen gold dust, I'm agnostic about it, I know people who say jewels appeared in their hand, they were freaked out about it. Don't know what happened to the jewels, didn't think to ask, it was as if what happened to the jewels was unimportant, no one was thinking "oh, goodie, I can sell this and pay the rent." But to me NOT thinking that way is consistent with being in worship mode, the focus is awe of God, not "what can I get out of this for me?"
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
I am 100% sure we can eliminate charlatanism.
I'll take your word for it, but I don't think you can eliminate auto-suggestion.
There's a (properly sourced) account (whose details I will try to find) of a small town in the US that thought it had become the victim of some kind of astronomical phenomenon when tiny impacts were discovered in car windscreens, in increasing quantities, across the community. As I recall, people started leaving brown paper over their windscreens at night in an attempt to prevent further impacts, and so on.
It eventually transpired that the impacts were normal and not unique to the town. They were in fact to be found on just about every windscreen of the era. They were simply the usual impacts of small stones thrown up on road journeys that a couple of people in the town had started noticing. Once they had been noticed and reported, more people noticed them, and so it went.
I think that even in the absence of complete fraud (which I'm pretty sure was the case for Silvânia Machado who Gamaliel mentions in the OP) the scope for this 'gold dust' being some kind of combination of perspiration, run-of-the-mill dust and reading too many Ruth Heflin books is not to be neglected. Stop making reference to it altogether and see what happens.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
That's an interesting take, Eutychus. I don't doubt the sincerity of those involved at Beatmenace's church, but I do wonder whether mild perspiration and bits of dust/silica that are normally present on on people's hands might look a bit shiny under certain conditions - and with the kind of 'Ooh, look at this!' thing that Eutychus has mentioned, might be capable of leading people to put 2+2 together and make 5 ...
I'm not sure, Beatmenace, that when Moses's face shone or when Christ was Transfigured we are to understand these things as the presence of particular 'material' - ie. a gold coloured substance or light reflecting material of some kind. Indeed, the scriptural accounts seem to suggest that the light source was completely other-worldly. The Orthodox tradition, of course, talks of the Uncreated Light.
I have no particular beef about the well-attested story of St Seraphim of Sarov's face beaming with light (as attested by one of his disciples in a famous 19th century Russian account) - but my own faith doesn't stand or fall by stories of this kind - as I'm sure yours doesn't either.
I'd be interested to hear whether this 'phenomenon' continues. My own experience, of things like the Toronto Blessing etc is that after a while attempts are made to regularise or embed occurrences of this kind - there was the development of a kind of 'Toronto Liturgy' if you like which was pretty much guaranteed to achieve similar results every time. It built in a degree of expectation. That's where the auto-suggestibility kicked in.
I will watch this space. I'm not sure where your 'gold-dust' thing is going to lead but I'm not sure it'd be somewhere bright and sparkly.
That doesn't preclude the grounded stuff that your church is doing with food banks, churches-together groups and so on and so forth, as I said to Jack the Lass, the more 'out-there' stuff can co-exist with the grounded stuff for quite some time.
I wouldn't be surprised though, if in six months time you'd turn to someone in church and say, 'Remember that gold dust thing? We don't seem to have had it for some time ... what was all that about?'
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm further struck by talk of 'by-products' of God's presence - as if God is somehow more present at some times than others. He was omnipresent the last time I looked ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Now, I know that more sacramentally inclined Christians believe that God is particularly present in the Eucharist in some way and I don't have a particular issue with that, although I do have an issue with some popular medieval accounts about bleeding Hosts and so on ...
It strikes me that people have an in-built yearning for some kind of 'proof' or by-product of the presence of God or the reality of the numinous. I'm not saying that there is anything 'wrong' with that, it's a natural tendency, but I suspect it does lead to watching shadows in the fire, as it were.
The other thing I'd add is that it strikes me that contemporary charismatics have somehow 'sacralised' the worship time because there's a vacuum left by a low view of traditional sacraments. So the arms in the air, let-it-all-roll time becomes the primary place of 'encounter' rather than silence (as per the Quakers) or the Eucharist (as per RCs, Orthodox and 'higher' Anglicans) - or indeed the sermon, as per various more Reformed forms of Protestant (although some Reformed traditions do seem able to combine all these aspects more equitably).
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Off Centre View
Shipmate
# 4254
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Posted
Interesting discussion - until a while ago I'd have been very sceptical about things like the appearance of gold dust, and then I saw it happen with my own eyes.
My sister works for a missionary organisation and a few years ago I went with my parents to go and visit her near a base over in the USA. One afternoon there was a house party where a group of leaders (of my sister's outreach) and their families had gathered.
Two of the leaders at the house party, a married couple, had young twins who were then just a few months old. As is usual at those sort of gatherings, people did a bit of "pass the baby around" and my mother ended up holding one of the babies for a while.
My mother and I ended up chatting on the balcony of the house, with her still holding the baby. Then, pretty much out of thin air, what looked like gold dust fell on to the child, and neither I or my mum could explain why it happened. Noone else was nearby to rig up some sort of device to fake it, nor had my mum or I any reason to do so - we were both surprised by it.
As to what happened afterwards, my mother gave the baby back (still covered in bits of what looked like gold dust) and I think the parents were used to seeing such things. I'm still not sure what to make of, except that there's no way such an event could have happened in the natural and also that maybe God takes delight in surprising us in such ways.
To this day, I still can't explain it, save that God is bigger and more capable of wonders than we could ever imagine.
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Looking for Authenticity in the Corporate Abyss? Change Your Self, Change Your Workplace, Change Your World: www.corporateabyss.com
Posts: 1685 | From: wherever I may wander | Registered: Mar 2003
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
Whats it all about? Wish i knew - we have had this phenomena in recent weeks. I can honestly claim to have a bit of first hand experience of this.
We are not doing anything significantly different in worship to what we have been doing for several years. The gold seemed to appear on peoples hands spontaneously mid-worship. No one was expecting it or led by anyone to expect it.
...... What does it look like? Well its not 'Gold dust' as in real gold dust. Its more like sparkling specks on your hands - its obvious if you put it under a light. As for sweeping onto the floor - not really seen enough to do that.
........
I'm intrigued by this phenomenon. I've never heard of it before reading this thread. Does this glistening happen to everyone present on these occasions, or just the ones who've been to the bathroom on the premises?
My wife, a big fan of shimmery things, bought some of this soap a while ago. The sparkly bits stick to your skin big time, until it chooses to come off and attach itself to your bed linen. We both continued to shimmer for several days after I threw the damn stuff away amid her protestations.
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
Posts: 1262 | From: Kuon-ganjo, E17 | Registered: Nov 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
No. I've never heard of it either. Are there any attested cases in Britain?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
There are plenty of claims, but as is the nature of these things, they are very difficult to 'attest'.
Hence the thread ... I'm interested in what people make of it and in hearing from those who claim to have observed such things.
I'm still wary. Recently, an Orthodox friend sent me a newsletter which contained accounts of angels apparently renewing the paintwork on medieval frescoes in Macedonia.
Why didn't they bob by and do some DIY on a little old lady's cottage while they were at it, I found myself wondering ...
Call me pragmatic, but one of the things that bothers me about some of these claims is the apparent tricksiness and why there isn't any discernible benefit beyond give people who are already committed to some kind of faith position a bit of a buzz ...
It's the old reassurance thing, I s'pose ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
This tickled a memory and now that I've verified it I'm even more skeptical. Remember the good folks at Bethel in Redding? There is a Picture posted by a 3rd year Bethel student that supposedly shows a gold dust cloud, but Bethel has been involved enough in shady dealings that I'm wondering what it really is happening there. They also have claimed diamonds have showed up in the homes of the faithful and angel feathers (which tested out to be regular bird feathers) have appeared in services as well.
I was heavily involved in the charismatic movement for many years and NEVER saw this phenomenon nor heard of it.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think that most of the Bethel stuff is down to credulity rather than outright shady dealings, but it's not an outfit I'd want to get involved with in any way, shape or form.
The influence is widespread though. A new convert in our Anglican parish became all enthusiastic for a while about white feathers apparently appearing at key moments during the process of her conversion.
I'm not questioning the validity of her conversion, but I am very sceptical about the apparent angelic feathers ...
There's an apparent inability to process metaphor and 'picture-language' in some of these instances, I suspect.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Lass:
Yes they were mooing and clucking on Sunday night in church, but the rest of the week they were serving the poor and 'walking the walk' - and that's why, although remaining sceptical, I couldn't completely dismiss it.
Well, on the other hand the second doesn't validate the first. Most Christian movements have the same divisions of the good the bad and the ugly the bedevils all human institutions.
I think auto suggestion - in the widest sense - explains a lot of what goes on in such circles. The plausibility structures of these circles generally allow for such behaviour, and the behaviour themselves can often end up being an unconscious response to whatever is going on around (whether it really is a 'real sense of the presence of God' or just the worship team unconsciously manipulating the emotional state of the audience.)
Backtracking back to plausibility structures; if you hang around in circles claiming appearances of Gold Dust (and gold fillings and jewels appearing from nothing) you'll sooner or later start to hear stories about angelic visitations, christophanies etc. It occurs to me that these same circles would generally view Marian apparitions as some kind of deception.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
To what extent is this sort of thing so different from eg: the Holy Fool in Orthodoxy? To my mind, that makes no sense whatsoever, but ISTM that all Christian traditions seem to throw up this kind of phenomenon from time to time, so maybe we all need it in some way....?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
IMO
This gold dust stuff is simply taking over from where the Toronto Blessing stuff ran out of steam. I have been waiting for something but didn't expect this, rather something just as strange / unbelievable but something that was new (as in 'GOD is doing a new thing'!).
My scepticism leads me to wonder about the people who think they see sparkles as the presence of GOD.
As shipmates know, I see no sense in GOD as a being or entity - just a (valuable for some) creation of people's imaginations. So my view is probably unimportant.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Cara
Shipmate
# 16966
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The other thing I'd add is that it strikes me that contemporary charismatics have somehow 'sacralised' the worship time because there's a vacuum left by a low view of traditional sacraments. So the arms in the air, let-it-all-roll time becomes the primary place of 'encounter' rather than silence (as per the Quakers) or the Eucharist (as per RCs, Orthodox and 'higher' Anglicans) - or indeed the sermon, as per various more Reformed forms of Protestant (although some Reformed traditions do seem able to combine all these aspects more equitably).
Now this is a really interesting idea....that we need a sacred time.
The moment of consecration and distribution of the Eucharist is still a sacred time and the climax of the service to me, as I was brought up Catholic. For the Quakers, as Gamaliel says, the silence becomes the sacred time, the moment of encounter with God. And for some Protestants, it's the sermon....God mediated through the preacher.
I'd be interested in others' responses to this idea...but perhaps it's a tangent....
While interested in the idea that charismatics have "sacralised" the worship time, I'm not saying I believe the "gold dust" is necessarily auto-suggestion.....I don't know what to believe about it.
cara
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Pondering.
Posts: 898 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I would tend to agree with Gamaliel's analysis that, for charismatics, either the worship time or (going back to the mid-1990s), the 'times of refreshing' are/ were, for them, the 'thin place'.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think the plausibility structure thing is key here, as Chris Stiles has observed. If you knock around in RC or Orthodox circles sooner or later you'll hear stories of Marian apparitions or weeping iconography etc. Conversely, in charismatic evangelical circles you're going to hear stories about alleged xenoglossy or gold dust etc etc.
The Holy Fool thing is an interesting one, Matt, as generally the 'Fool' by his/her strange behaviour draws attention to something that their more rational colleagues/associates have overlooked - there are some good examples in the hagiographies. It isn't just daft behaviour for the sake of it. Well, not always ... it sometimes has a 'prophetic' edge to it ...
Such as the monk who presented Ivan the Terrible with a steak dripping with blood to deter him from ravaging a rebel city (after he'd slaughtered the population of several other towns).
I do think we 'need' things like this from time to time - Ronald Knox would say so in his magisterial study of 'enthusiastic' religious movements, 'Enthusiasm.'
When all is said and done, he concludes, and for all the daftness, you still need 'enthusiasm'.
Hans Kung observed that in Catholic circles such enthusiasm becomes attached to objects and places, whereas in Protestantism it tends to be verbal stuff - such as 'prophecies' and particular interpretations of the end-times etc.
I suspect that with the 'physicality' of aspects of the charismatic renewal/revivalism we're seeing a blurring of those boundaries - with physical stuff - prostrations, apparent 'glory clouds' and so on showing up in Protestant settings.
As Chris observes, though, these self-same people would be highly sceptical of Marian apparitions and the like.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
'Enthusiasm' - yes, indeed. Something I was eager to see and frustrated not to see when I was a minister. But enthusiasm about GOD - surely that should be sufficient? The church doesn't need what people outside the church would see as plain stupidity - they may be prepared to accept that Christians are a bit weird to believe in GOD but they just laugh and ridicule stuff like gold dust. It does sensible Christians a disservice ISTM.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
quote:
Any amputees got their limbs back ?
Any eyeless their sight ? Apart from by technology.
Martin,
Not go those yet - but we did have a woman arrive at the weekend Ladies Breakfast in a wheelchair - who ended up pushing it out!!!
Now obviously i wasn't there, but my wife was, she was speaking at the LB, in fact, who verified this. Now the real test of the healing is to see if the wheelchair is still surplus to requirements at next months LB!
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
quote:
I'll take your word for it, but I don't think you can eliminate auto-suggestion.
I agree its always possible - but i dont think its that likely as none of us were expecting it and it was all mid-worship, with no prompting from the stage or anywhere else.
Quite a few of those to receive this had never heard of the phenomena.
Yes - i am speculating about Moses - i wouldn't dream of suggesting its definitely the same thing - and nor has anyone else, to be fair, its just an idea that occurred to me.
I like to think I can spot Manipulation, Cold Reading and Auto Suggestion when i see it - but we literally were just doing what we always do on a Sunday a.m !
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
quote:
I wouldn't be surprised though, if in six months time you'd turn to someone in church and say, 'Remember that gold dust thing? We don't seem to have had it for some time ... what was all that about?'
I quite agree - i wouldnt want to us to be forced down a gold dust siding - or even become known for it (I may have said too much already, folks), but if you REALLY want to visit us as a 'Sign Tourist' thats fine with me - as long as you are prepared to encounter God on the way past! We will give you a warm welcome - we like guests.
That said - i will honour the gold as a gift , if it is from God then it is right to, but encountering the One that it points to is better every time.
I am a great believer in there being 'Seasons' in a church's life. This may be for a Season , or it may continue further - i'm not God ( who knows the answer to that one )- but its not the main event - God's presence is what its about. He can bring as much other stuff with Him as he wants !
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
I am a great believer in there being 'Seasons' in a church's life.
Am I the only one to find that hilarious? And sad?
Doesn't 'normal' worship, study and service suffice? Why do people need a shot in the arm?
But, as I said, it's what this gold stuff is about - whipping up the enthusiasm.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
I am a great believer in there being 'Seasons' in a church's life. This may be for a Season , or it may continue further - i'm not God
That's one explanation. It might also be that a subset of church has been so influenced by the entertainment culture that they need a regular change of diet to keep the interest up.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Doesn't 'normal' worship, study and service suffice? Why do people need a shot in the arm?
For the exact same reason they need a shot in the arm in any other aspect of life. Why go on holiday? Why try new things? Because our brains respond differently to new things versus things we are familiar with. It's actually a fairly fundamental part of how, in neuroscience terms, we're wired up.
PS The question seems terribly odd given your view further upthread, but I don't think that changes the answer.
[ 17. July 2012, 12:44: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Am I the only one to find that hilarious? And sad?
Hey, I'm an Anglican. We follow 'seasons'. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
OK, yes, it's Christianese jargon, but actually I do believe in seasons of life, including the spiritual life. I mean, it's quite a well-accepted poetic trope, isn't it?
quote:
Doesn't 'normal' worship, study and service suffice? Why do people need a shot in the arm?
Good question. There is a strong mystical tradition in Christianity, of course (and Judaism, and Islam). But people, being people, tend to get hooked onto the spiritual phenomena of the moment, or day, or week, rather than getting ultimately excited about God Himself. And then they want their shots in the arm, and the shots in the arm, however temporary, seem more exciting and exotic than the daily walk in obedience to Christ, denying self, in the general, gritty crappiness of life. It's not as if Jesus didn't give us tools for any of this ...
I haven't experienced gold dust.
I did see some really weird behaviour during the Toronto Blessing. Animal noises, ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
What stands out to me is the meeting I went to at my local New Frontiers church, which was specifically showcasing the Toronto Blessing, not only because of the bonkers mayhem, which was in truth no more bonkers than many other bonkers stuff I've seen in charismatic circles, but because the NF elder who led that meeting didn't refer to the Bible once. Not once. NOT. ONCE. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) And now that New Frontiers is all allegedly Neo-Calvinist, I wonder what their trendy Reformed brethren would make of that. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) (Oooooh, bitchy! ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) )
I have experienced plenty of joyful, uplifting, sensitively led worship without weird add-ons. But in all truth my most 'numinous' experiences have been either on my own, in prayer, or with another Christian praying for me at the time. And, unsurprisingly, I have often had those experiences on retreat.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think that most of the Bethel stuff is down to credulity rather than outright shady dealings, but it's not an outfit I'd want to get involved with in any way, shape or form.
The influence is widespread though. A new convert in our Anglican parish became all enthusiastic for a while about white feathers apparently appearing at key moments during the process of her conversion.
I'm not questioning the validity of her conversion, but I am very sceptical about the apparent angelic feathers ...
There's an apparent inability to process metaphor and 'picture-language' in some of these instances, I suspect.
When Bethel doesn't issue any retractions/updates on erroneous reports that the church has posted on it's site, be it the raising of the dead that didn't happen or angel feathers (and that's what the pastor claimed it was) turn out to be bird feathers, that goes into shady territory. Everyone can understand a possible erroneous communication or thinking something was there that wasn't, but not leaving reports up or simply making them disappear.
I don't question the validity of the girl's conversion either or the sincerity of the flock, but I do think there is a whole lot of manipulation going on and I thought Eutychus had some valid points.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
Not go those yet - but we did have a woman arrive at the weekend Ladies Breakfast in a wheelchair - who ended up pushing it out!!!
What I really take exception to here (again) is the phrase "not got those yet". For the nth time, where on earth in the Bible do you see people "working up" through various degrees of extraordinariness in miracles? This is not Hogwarts.
quote:
Now the real test of the healing is to see if the wheelchair is still surplus to requirements at next months
That is not where the real test should start. The real test should start by establishing why she was in the wheelchair in the first place. You lot would not pass Lourdes' criteria for examining miracles by a mile.
Those shots fired, I suggest we get back to the gold dust, because healing is really a separate issue.
[ 17. July 2012, 13:03: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
I think the danger of needing the shot in the arm, or the current topic of gold dust, angel feathers, diamonds, etc. is that the focus becomes "signs and wonders" and not a genuine communion with God - and this is especially true where in some charismatic circles where manipulation is used through music, lighting and prompts by pastors. However, I've experienced my best times of worship and communion with God in the absence of those things where the focus was solely on God and not out of the ordinary actions or "signs" in other charismatic circles.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
Mark, Apologies - i wasn't too clear about what I meant by seasons. Not talking about a string of serial adrenaline injections....... I was using a methaphor to talk about a church's growth. Because they can.
What I meant is the mission of my church in 2012 is not the same as it was in 1996.
In 1996 - the first few members were in the local Town Hall with a sense of calling but no real sense of what to - perhaps , and i make no apology for using a jargony phrase , ' ' a season of seeking God'
In 2000 or so we were led by a number of convesations and 'coincidences' to merge with a group of Christians who were meeing in what is now our current building but had been decimated by a church split - could i call that a 'season of formation'?
On Easter Sunday 2008 - although already a Charismatic church - the presence of God was so powerful it felt like the start of a new stage in the Churches life , and since then we have seen Healing and Prophetic stuff added to what we do. Season of the Spirit anyone?
Around the same time we became much closer to other more traditional churches in the area - who having previously been bitten by Charismatic groups , were a bit suspicious of us. Since then those barriers have gone and most local churches now have good relations with us - Our Pastor is now officially a member of an Anglican Order - although not actually an Anglican. these warmed relations eventually led to the setting up of the Street Pastors team supplied from nearly all the Churches in the area, and currently (this year) a Foodbank. A Season of brotherhood perhaps.
Now something else is happening. Is it a new season or a distraction. Time will tell.
I never said we were not doing 'normal' worship, study and service throughout, although some things, songs, particularly belonged more to one stage than others.
I really don't think churches are meant to stay exactly the same forever - we may be on a Faith Journey but if you keep arriving back where you started it starts to feel a lot like stagnation......
I wouldn't want to still be where we were in 1992. But i would like a season of stagnation or decline - to use the metaphor - and i have been in churches where both have happened in the past - even less.
Does this make it clearer what i meant?
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
quote:
That is not where the real test should start. The real test should start by establishing why she was in the wheelchair in the first place. You lot would not pass Lourdes' criteria for examining miracles by a mile.
I actually agree - i was using quite loose language earlier - Any healing is a blessing to the one who experiences and biblically there is no heirarchy of the miraculous.
However the question was specifically why no healing of the blind or amputees. I didn't imply we were building up to 'greater' healings - the above examples just haven't happened for us yet. And i used 'yet' in that sense. There is no reason though why that can't happen, even without the alleged 'run up'.
Agree again - i can't apply the Lourdes criteria -as i wasn't there. I don't know the ladies' medical condition prior to the breakfast, or identity , but it is common that people who appear healed at a meeting will relapse.
This is why i suggested the 'test of time' as its the only one available to me. It cant garantee people were not fooled by someone who wasn't actually ill - (a trick Mr Hinn is quite fond of), since i dont have any medical info or even the persons identity.
In perspective, we have far more sick people than healed ones so while i have the opportunity i am going to rejoice with the rejoicing - whatever actually happened on the day.
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
Boogie - still not sure it has a purpose except as a pointer to God Himself.
It feels to me a bit like a 'calling card' but I cant make any theological justification for that.
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
To rake in more gold ...
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Off Centre View:
...
My mother and I ended up chatting on the balcony of the house, with her still holding the baby. Then, pretty much out of thin air, what looked like gold dust fell on to the child, and neither I or my mum could explain why it happened. Noone else was nearby to rig up some sort of device to fake it, nor had my mum or I any reason to do so - we were both surprised by it.
As to what happened afterwards, my mother gave the baby back (still covered in bits of what looked like gold dust) and I think the parents were used to seeing such things. I'm still not sure what to make of, except that there's no way such an event could have happened in the natural and also that maybe God takes delight in surprising us in such ways.
To this day, I still can't explain it, save that God is bigger and more capable of wonders than we could ever imagine.
Hmm, in my area of the USA my first thought would be pollen, pine pollen for instance which can blanket the ground with yellow dust.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
I actually agree - i was using quite loose language earlier
OK, I can accept that, but the trouble is that loose language is all too frequently used by people testifying to this or that evidence of the miraculous - people whose words carry weight with their listeners.
That's exactly where loose language shouldn't be used (unless the purpose is hype).
Step back a minute. Such claims are truly extraordinary: spontaneous healings, appearences of unexplained substances, various manifestations of the supernatural. If there's a chance that God really is in our midst in such events, we should not be using sloppy language to describe them.
He's not a tame lion, and he is not to be mocked.
We should be being scrupulously careful to avoid deception and to have accurate descriptions of what's going on. Of course the implications if it is true are tremendous - but so are the implications of being mistaken.
At the end of the day, the widespread lack of rigour in the reporting of these things does not militate in favour of taking the reporters seriously. Neither does the frequent laying of emphasis on the fact that emphasis is not being laid on these manifestations.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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CSL1
Shipmate
# 17168
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
I am 100% sure we can eliminate charlatanism.
I'll take your word for it, but I don't think you can eliminate auto-suggestion...I think that even in the absence of complete fraud ...the scope for this 'gold dust' being some kind of combination of perspiration, run-of-the-mill dust and reading too many Ruth Heflin books is not to be neglected. Stop making reference to it altogether and see what happens.
I saw some people at a previous church wife and I attended running up to me--skeptical prof--and saying "See, see, it's gold dust!" I took a close look and it seemed an awful lot like bits of sweat under the lights, that people were taking normal phenomena and making great miracles of them. Likely the reason they don't notice the bits of perspiration on their hands in everyday situations is because they're not usually sweaty indoors in a location with spotlights above (as many newer church buildings and fellowship hall-type environments have). Also because they aren't looking for it outside the church building. As I go through my day I occasionally wipe my glistening hands "Blasted sweaty palms" and think nothing of it. I played a table tennis tournament over last weekend and probably wiped my hands 100 times, they sparkled pretty brightly, but never thought it was a miracle (other than the miracle that the Lord made us in this marvelously complex way for our survival). On one occasion an acquaintance at that church thrust her hands out to me and there did honestly seem to be more than mere sweat. Not gold necessarily, but something. But I can't say it was a miracle or wasn't. I do know miracles occur and have seen some whoppers, but never, to my knowledge, in the presence of a big-haired pompous evangelist with diamond rings.
I've had the opposite experience of the deeper relationship Jack the Lass described seeing in others. The church was an independent charismatic that eventually revealed itself to be a destructive cult, they abused members and eventually revealed their theological position that Christ was not divine while He walked the earth and when He died for our sins.
Posts: 172 | Registered: Jun 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
The only gold dust I've seen in church was inside the pendant of a necklace someone in our choir had made up from the gold she panned in the Yukon. I guess that doesn't really count.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aslan lives despite our chaos. In our chaos.
He does NOT heal amputees, Down's syndrome, aging, bipolarity, you name it.
He does NOT start Holy Fires in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.
He doesn't rain gold dust.
Twenty years ago He didn't give people gold fillings.
He is far above such parlour tricks.
He's with us in our decay, our loss, our weakness, keeps us from committing suicide today with a word from another who doesn't know what it was.
And He doesn't NOT answer our prayers.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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CSL1
Shipmate
# 17168
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
What stands out to me is the meeting I went to at my local New Frontiers church...because the NF elder who led that meeting didn't refer to the Bible once. Not once. NOT. ONCE.
You expect genuine concern for what God says in the Bible in a NF church? Little credulous there, eh? Hey, if they're not mentioning the Bible, at least they're not distorting it. That's about all I ever experienced in my former (thankfully) NF church.
Posts: 172 | Registered: Jun 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Hush, stay on topic
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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