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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Gold Dust - now what's all that about?
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CSL1
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# 17168
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Now the real test of the healing is to see if the wheelchair is still surplus to requirements at next months
That is not where the real test should start. The real test should start by establishing why she was in the wheelchair in the first place. You lot would not pass Lourdes' criteria for examining miracles by a mile.
Exactly, Eutychus. That's what I was thinking.
In the Bible, Jesus healed those known by the community to have been blind, lame, what-have-you, from birth. In the current milieu of Super Apostles and False Prophets, an elderly person is oft given a wheelchair as they enter the church or the arena as a courtesy (this is a documented tactic). Then the evangelist approaches grandma, who's perfectly spry but sitting in the wheelchair, and shouts "WALK IN THE NAME OF JESUS!" Grandma, every eye on her now, is embarrassed into standing up and taking some steps. The arena erupts into adoration for Jesus (or, just as likely, the evangelist with the Bentley out back).
[ 17. July 2012, 14:45: Message edited by: CSL1 ]
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CSL1
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# 17168
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Hush, stay on topic ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Sorry, and to think I just got back from another thread where I chastised people for taking it off target into a Calvinist-Arminian debate. Shame on me, you're right, Eutychus. By the way, you are THE Eutychus, aren't you?
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Laurelin
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# 17211
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Posted
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Originally posted by CSL1:
Little credulous there, eh?
I'm neither credulous nor stupid. And NFI is hardly unique in being a church that has screwed people up (sadly). I've never been part of their constituency, nor would I ever be. But their constituency did give us Stuart Townend, so, you know ... some of them must be going to heaven.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Aslan lives despite our chaos. In our chaos.
He does NOT heal amputees, Down's syndrome, aging, bipolarity, you name it.
He does NOT start Holy Fires in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.
He doesn't rain gold dust.
Twenty years ago He didn't give people gold fillings.
He is far above such parlour tricks.
He's with us in our decay, our loss, our weakness, keeps us from committing suicide today with a word from another who doesn't know what it was.
And He doesn't NOT answer our prayers.
*like*
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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windsofchange
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# 13000
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Posted
This "gold dust" may actually be something real and material, but frankly, that makes me more skeptical that it's NOT from God and is being faked. (They sell that sparkly stuff by the pound at craft shops; how hard would it be for one or two people to stand near a fan or an air vent and quietly let a handful loose?)
It could be fakery, or maybe gullibility, or a combination of the two.
Reminds me of when I was in high school and got involved in a Charismatic prayer group. The leader, a very charismatic (small c intentional), was always telling us about the wonderful things she was seeing as we prayed - a bright blue ribbon floating over our heads; a rainbow; a "cloud of glory" (whatever that might have been).
And, wanting to please her (because she was a teacher and SO COOL!), we would always smile and agree that we saw it too! And try very, very hard to believe it.
The Emperor's new clothes had nothing on the Charismatic Prayer Group Leader's newest miracle. But they had about the same amount of substance. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on." (owner of Coney Island Freak Show, upon learning someone outbid him for a 5-legged puppy)
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windsofchange
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# 13000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by windsofchange :
... The leader, a very charismatic (small c intentional) teacher , was always telling us about the wonderful things she was seeing as we prayed - ...
(sorry, lost my window of time to make the above edit!! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) )
(Also wanted to add: I have a cousin who is a very prominent speaker in the evangelical world (here in the U.S.) and is constantly proclaiming "miracles" like this. Knowing the kinds of stunts he pulled when we were growing up makes me even more certain that, at least at the events he attends, they're probably faked. )
[ 17. July 2012, 15:08: Message edited by: windsofchange ]
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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on." (owner of Coney Island Freak Show, upon learning someone outbid him for a 5-legged puppy)
Posts: 153 | From: Reseda, CA, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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CSL1
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# 17168
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
Little credulous there, eh?
I'm neither credulous nor stupid.
Not accusing you of being stupid--by no means--some of the most intelligent people are quite credulous, it's almost a cliche: idealistic, naive hard sciences whiz--brilliant, but credulous. E.g., Alfred Molina in Spiderman 2, Albert Einstein.
I was just using the opportunity to gratuitously slam NF, I apologize for putting you in the crossfire.
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Laurelin
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# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
I was just using the opportunity to gratuitously slam NF, I apologize for putting you in the crossfire.
No worries. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I'm not a fan of theirs.
I'm mildly intrigued by this gold dust thing now, but not because I want to see it or experience it, just because I've heard about it now and then and I find it odd.
Although not as unpleasant as all that barking under the Toronto Blessing.
Truth be told though, I am really tired of religious silliness, not least the charismatic variety. Never mind the gold dust and the what-not, I want the simplicity of the gospel and the power of the Spirit. More pure, clear, transparent water of the Holy Spirit ...
The church in the developing world does seem to experience more of the direct power of the Spirit. Maybe because their worldview is less cluttered by materialism and all our other many 'isms'.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Aslan lives despite our chaos. In our chaos.
He does NOT heal amputees, Down's syndrome, aging, bipolarity, you name it.
He does NOT start Holy Fires in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.
He doesn't rain gold dust.
Twenty years ago He didn't give people gold fillings.
He is far above such parlour tricks.
He's with us in our decay, our loss, our weakness, keeps us from committing suicide today with a word from another who doesn't know what it was.
And He doesn't NOT answer our prayers.
It is very good of you to post this. What I personally struggle with is the last 2 sentences and how to discern, or otherwise figure out anything about some of the apparent 'non answers'. The manipulation of peoples' hopes (and my own) that wants any form of divine intervention or presence such we can all be persuaded. The 'please come soon' of some of our prayers.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
There's a (properly sourced) account (whose details I will try to find) of a small town in the US that thought it had become the victim of some kind of astronomical phenomenon when tiny impacts were discovered in car windscreens, in increasing quantities, across the community.
Well the town was hardly small ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) (Seattle), but I've found the book I read it in and from there got a reference. It's apparently a famous example of a collective delusion:
The Seattle Windshield Pitting Epidemic (longer but rather better summary here; sociology journal article here - the latter requires registration or payment to read in full).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
God may work in that way .... but if he does, what exactly is he saying by putting gold dust on people's hands or in their hair? That he wants to bless us (as many prophecies seem to say)? Why us, why now?
I'd put myself in the charismatic camp, allied to a healthy dose of scepticism along the lines of "all that glitters is not gold." I'm firmly in the con evo camp. Yet .....
... in 35 years in various churches, I've heard lots of claims about the presence and power of God: I speak in tongues: I've prayed for people to be healed - some have been (but it's not down to me or my prayer as such), some haven't - at least not visibly so. Most say that they feel more at peace as we have brought all the circumstances to God. I've seen apparent impossibilities happen and don't doubt that God can turn our expectations upside down. I believe that God is a God of miracles.
Sadly, my experience also finds that there is as much hype within the church as outside it. Ministers and celebrity preachers are bigged up; everyday events assume a significance way beyond their actual facts and impact. Healings - generally organic or unseen ones (eg leg lengthening are routinely claimed: what is God saying through that one?) - and the church has become subject to the hype of the latest snake oil salesman.
I'm not disillusioned with the church at all - i still believe and I still see a God of power working in people's lives - but I also see Christians who accept stuff at face value that doesn't bear testing (this is biblical) or close scrutiny.
Gold dust? Very 1996. The next thing after Toronto and the forerunner of Pensacola. New monasticism? Yes - then comes emerging church. Oh yes, and somewhere along the line Todd Bennett. Well, a few people who I love and trust and who I respect for their thinking thought Todd was "it" - it took 6 months to reveal him as a liar and adulterer, and the fad blew out.
The fads come round quicker these days and they are often repeat items from a few years back. We just don't test this stuff anymore nor do we ask the real question: it's not what or how -- always think "why" is God doing this? What is he pointing to?
The values the church hads adopted are indistinguishable from those of the world around. We are as open to advertising and marketing as anyone and we just aren't content with the everyday and sacrificial anymore. Gold dust manifestations have the same bleat of the me, me me narcissism of the secular world.
The real miracles come on our church's doorstep: people welcomed; the mentally ill supported; prostitutes prayed for: a sick man of 25, dying, from a drug reaction, healed; others coping with loss through God's compassion shared by others. Children off the streets and in a club, a place of safety, every week.
Not spectacular when compared to glory clouds or gold dust - but I know which one is closest to God's heart even if we do mess it up from time to time.
[ 17. July 2012, 19:44: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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CSL1
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# 17168
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Posted
That's as well as I've heard it put, Exclamation Mark.
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Stejjie
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# 13941
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Posted
Exclamation Mark: ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
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beatmenace
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# 16955
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Posted
quote:
The real miracles come on our church's doorstep: people welcomed; the mentally ill supported; prostitutes prayed for: a sick man of 25, dying, from a drug reaction, healed; others coping with loss through God's compassion shared by others. Children off the streets and in a club, a place of safety, every week.
Absolutely - but why cant you have both? Signs are precisely that - they point to a King and a Kingdom. So does the activism which Mark describes. There isn't an either/or here.
As i have said in previous posts this is VERY NEW to us. I mean last 3 weeks new.
I really cant vouch for what other setups like Bethel do. The 'Glory Cloud' does look like it could be staged in the way some suggest - but that would be pretty obvious and by now someone would have squarked.
Ours isn't like that at all. Its more like the 'glitter soap' stuff except its not that. I suspect it may be chemical - similar to crystals coming out of solutions. I can see issues with Conservation of Matter otherwise. It's too shiny for Pollen, and anyway you need a Summer for that....
We are a pretty high energy bunch but not enough to generate new substances (150 GeV anyone?).
Can speculate on 'how' but that's are not the BIG question to me.
Why spontaneously in worship? And why now and not in the 15 years or so previously? My best idea is that its a calling card......
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
[QUOTE] Why spontaneously in worship? And why now and not in the 15 years or so previously? My best idea is that its a calling card......
Of course you can have both but do we really need such a sign? Is that how God wants to talk to us with gold when money has becoem so devalued in a moral and ethical sense?
I seem to remember, too, Jesus himself taking a fairly tough line on signs that included reference to the sign of Jonah!
We have the greatest sign of all -- a man returning from the dead -- and gold dust is pulling them in?
A calling card? Well perhaps - but to what and to whom? The litmus test is who it all pooints to and to what end - in other words, what impact does it bring on the 2 F's of discipleship: faithfulness and fruit? is it perhaps a caling card warning you NOT to embrace the superficial but to experience the sacrificial?
What changes, can I ask, has it brought to your community of faith? What difference is it making to Whitley Bay (assuming you live there!). physical community?
[ 17. July 2012, 21:58: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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CSL1
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# 17168
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
...and by now someone would have squarked.
I've been in a church where the pastors could have openly thrown glitter about by the handful, told the parishoners it was the miraculous work of God and that their eyes were being deluded by Jezebel spirits into thinking it was a trick, and the people would've sat there silent and forced themselves to believe they were witnessing a bona fide miracle. They'd have soon started spreading the word about the new "outpouring" and come to literally believe it themselves. The mind is a strange thing.
Why do I think people would fall for trickery? Because people (and for some strange reason Christians especially) are almost unbelievably gullible. They will believe without a second thought ridiculous rumors about Proctor & Gamble, they will throw their money as fast as they can at whatever charlatan multilevel marketing scheme comes along, they will give donated funds away to Ponzi schemes, they will justify the most ridiculous behavior imaginable (if the pastor of one of these fellowships were to drop trousers and defecate on the altar, I'm sure there'd be people either calling it the Hand of God. People in churches will stand by passively while their families are destroyed and the Gospel distorted and say nothing about the abuse until years later if at all. A friend of mine watched passively as the pastors destroyed his wife through public and private humiliation (I remember her breaking down in front of her husband, my wife and me--heart rending). But the husband's best friends were at that church, and he wanted a healing, by gosh, and that church made the biggest claims in town to miracles, so he was willing to put up with anything, evidently, to get it. I begged him to get out and leave with us. He died anyway of his infirmities, and left his widow, so far as I know, to the wolves.
People will fall for anything and say nothing of it. Not saying that's your situation, just harshly questioning your assessment that word would've gotten out if it was a fraud. Not necessarily so.
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
It's all there - just look at the 7 churches of Revelation 2 & 3. Nothing new under the sun.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
[QUOTE] Why spontaneously in worship? And why now and not in the 15 years or so previously? My best idea is that its a calling card......
Of course you can have both but do we really need such a sign? Is that how God wants to talk to us with gold when money has becoem so devalued in a moral and ethical sense?
I think some comments on this thread are being distracted by the dual meaning of "gold." The metal named "gold" has monetary value to us earthlings in this life. But the word "gold" also names a color shining and beautiful independent of any financial value of the metal named gold; and that's the sense I get from those who say they've see it -- the beauty is what they are seeing, not a dollar value.
What is "gold dust" for? I used to wonder what all those wildflowers growing for centuries in places where no man (or beast) ever saw or admired them, now I just think God enjoys beauty. If the "gold dust" stories are real, perhaps that's what it's about, God enjoying the beauty of people who see what they think is gold dust and delight in the beauty WITHOUT thinking "Maybe I can gather this up and make some money off it." For once people are being non-materialistic, that's beautiful!
Skeptics chatter about potential monetary value of the gold if it's real; who cares? Alabaster box and all that. God isn't always financially pragmatic. Those looking to use the expensive oil for it's financial value were the ones chided.
Not saying "believe all you hear," just saying objections along monetary lines about the supposed practical material value of the "gold dust" as if the focus of the meeting should change from God to gathering up "gold dust" to sell, are not relevant.
Are some stories fake? I wouldn't be surprised, I doubt the ones where ONLY the speaker is affected. But I've heard a few reports from friends who don't usually make things up, who saw it at meetings where there were no appeals for donations, or where any "gold dust" appeared late in the meeting, long after the routine collection had been received.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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windsofchange
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# 13000
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Posted
Just out of curiosity, has anyone either tasted this stuff, or rubbed their eyes after touching it?
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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on." (owner of Coney Island Freak Show, upon learning someone outbid him for a 5-legged puppy)
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I'm broadly where ExclamationMark, NightOwl2 and Eutychus are at on this one - and CSL1 too, although I've not had as many bad experiences as he has.
I'm also very sceptical about the idea of 'seasons' in church life beyond the ones that happen as a result of moving buildings or changing direction strategically etc. Like Laurelin, I would rather follow the set liturgical seasons - and build the rhythm of my spiritual life around that. I find that far more personally fulfilling than all the talk of 'seasons' that we used to get back in the 'new church' restorationists days ...
We were always 'entering a time of ...' or expecting a 'new thing ...' or 'on the verge of a breakthrough ...' yadda yadda yadda ... all things that Eutychus could probably recite backwards along with me (despite being in a different 'network').
It all makes for a very vertiginous and see-sawing , roller-coaster ride faith.
Of course, as Orfeo says, there are times when we need refreshment or a shot-in-the-arm. That's what conferences/retreat centres and so on can provide, but I suggest that we need to be careful how we use all of these things - they can become ends in themselves.
I'm certainly not saying that people in Beatmenace's congregation are faking things still less that there's a diamond-ringed evangelist in a Bentley out the back - this is Whitley Bay not Whoop-it-Upsville, Alabama ...
But I wouldn't be surprised, as Eutychus suggests, that this is some kind of collective illusion/misapprehension of what might turn out to be otherwise perfectly natural events - lights and sweat come to mind - as CSL1 has suggested.
Of course, 'Aslan is not safe' and God can do some pretty strange things ...
As for the thing about why it only happens in the middle worship services, I suggest that this may be because levels of humidity have had time to rise to a level where glittery sweat may occur or where levels of credulity have risen.
I don't care what anyone says, but there is almost inevitably a kind of swoozy-woozy atmosphere about half or two-thirds of the way through any contemporary 'worship-set' even if the praise band isn't trying to hype things up necessarily. It's the way the songs work. You could achieve similar effects by singing 'Mull of Kintyre' over and over again.
Of course, one could say the same about a 'High Mass' with the sense of drama heightened by smoke and bells. But generally in a context like that, people are aware of the artifice and aren't being 'conned' ...
I'm not saying that your lot are being deliberately mislead or messed with - but from what you've posted Beatmenace, it seems axiomatic to me that your church belongs to a milieu where it is expecting to see 'new things' and seasons of this that and the other and tangible, 'calling-card' evidence of God's presence - consequently that will act as a 'self-fulfilling prophecy' to some extent.
I know this is out of context, but didn't Jesus say somewhere about it not being for us to suss out 'times or seasons that the Father has determined by his own authority?'
I'm less 'reformed' than I used to be but I'm with Chris Stiles on the church's business being to preach the word and celebrate the sacraments and allow God to determine the rest.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Laurelin
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# 17211
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Posted
I don't get the impression that the 'gold dust' has anything to do with gold in a literal sense, i.e. the 'health, wealth and prosperity' nonsense. Perhaps some would see the gold dust more as a manifestation of the Shekinah, the presence of God in a shining cloud.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
We were always 'entering a time of ...' or expecting a 'new thing ...' or 'on the verge of a breakthrough ...' yadda yadda yadda ...
Oh boy, yes.
'Yadda yadda yadda' sums it up perfectly.
quote:
I don't care what anyone says, but there is almost inevitably a kind of swoozy-woozy atmosphere about half or two-thirds of the way through any contemporary 'worship-set' even if the praise band isn't trying to hype things up necessarily. It's the way the songs work. You could achieve similar effects by singing 'Mull of Kintyre' over and over again.
As someone who sings with her praise band, and is often quite partial to the 'swoozy-woozy', this strikes me as a valid criticism.
At least song-writers like Townend and the Gettys include some good theological content in their songs. (Also, the ballad form works really well with congregations. Ballads are easy to sing!)
But then there's Taizé worsip (which I also love). Taizé chants are all about repetition, but don't produce the same 'swoozy-woozy' effects. But I find Taizé worship deeply prayerful and meditative, and beautiful in its contemplative simplicity.
quote:
Of course, one could say the same about a 'High Mass' with the sense of drama heightened by smoke and bells. But generally in a context like that, people are aware of the artifice and aren't being 'conned' ...
Fair point.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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beatmenace
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# 16955
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Posted
quote:
It's all there - just look at the 7 churches of Revelation 2 & 3. Nothing new under the sun.
Spooky Mark strikes again.
Thats the teaching series we have been doing for the last 8 Sundays (Podcasts are available ).
Now that is an impressive word Mr Mark (although i may just being credulous).
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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beatmenace
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# 16955
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Posted
quote:
quote:
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It's all there - just look at the 7 churches of Revelation 2 & 3. Nothing new under the sun.
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Spooky Mark strikes again.
Thats the teaching series we have been doing for the last 8 Sundays (Podcasts are available ).
Now that is an impressive word Mr Mark (although i may just being credulous).
Either that or you've been checking our website
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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beatmenace
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# 16955
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Posted
I use think i use 'seasons' in a slightly different way to the way Gameliel does - i dont mean to call whizzy fads a 'season', whatever their value - i am thinking of something much more long term - seasons can take years on my planet....
In fact i thought i had invented the term in relation to church life - from what you say in your post it sounds like someone got there before me. Nothing new under the Sun then.
Back in the 90's i was an Anglican so maybe i have ingested this one subconciously.
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by windsofchange:
Reminds me of when I was in high school and got involved in a Charismatic prayer group. The leader, a very charismatic (small c intentional), was always telling us about the wonderful things she was seeing as we prayed - a bright blue ribbon floating over our heads; a rainbow; a "cloud of glory" (whatever that might have been).
And, wanting to please her (because she was a teacher and SO COOL!), we would always smile and agree that we saw it too! And try very, very hard to believe it.
The Emperor's new clothes had nothing on the Charismatic Prayer Group Leader's newest miracle. But they had about the same amount of substance.
This sounds rather like a visual migraine. Or just possibly synesthesia, though mine isn't so well-defined. She may have been deluded herself.
Just sayin'.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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beatmenace
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# 16955
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Posted
quote:
This sounds rather like a visual migraine. Or just possibly synesthesia, though mine isn't so well-defined. She may have been deluded herself.
Synesthesia sounds worthy of a thread in itself - so at risk of lurching way off topic:
I had heard Synesthesia accociates colours with Letters, Numbers and Musical notes. In that, it sounds quite quantifiable. Are there more abstract aspects which would sound more like the above?
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I don't have a problem with the way you are using 'seasons' in the sense that it might apply as follows (to give a fictitious example):
- From 1996 to 1999 we had a sustained season of evangelism, marked by the appointment of a youth-worker who led evangelistic youth-work in our area, at the same time we held several sustained programmes of evangelism which led to the conversion of a number of individuals. Some families also joined the church and we had several young people volunteering to undertake mission/development work abroad.
- From 2003 to 2005 we had a season of consolidation following a move from our hired hall into our own building ...
- From April 2007 to November 2007 we had a season of re-evaluation as we examined our core principles and decided on the direction we felt we would like to take as a church ...
If that's what you're referring to, then fine.
But if you're saying that there's somehow been a change in the 'spiritual atmosphere' or the 'heavenlies' or what-have-you and that this is marked by greater fervour, a sense of God's presence in the meetings, various tokens or 'calling-cards' ... that's when I begin to feel uncomfortable ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Laurelin
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# 17211
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Posted
St Hildegard of Bingen, who had extraordinary visions, suffered from migraines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen
I'm now wondering whether she also had synesthesia.
(I just found out through Google that on 7 October 2012, the Pope is going to declare her to be the 35th Doctor of the Church. I'm not a Catholic, but I like Hildegard, and that's very cool. )
Then there's Joan of Arc, another female visionary (who this time came a cropper!)
This has got me thinking. God could speak through a person with synesthesia, couldn't He?
The mind is a strange and wonderful thing. And I do believe that God speaks.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
no prophet, that's very good of you to say so.
And that's the CRUX isn't it ? Answered prayer. Including unasked prayer.
God answers ALL of our prayers in the positive in and through His Son, by the Spirit.
We are to discuss EVERY concern with Him. And He can't NOT respond.
Let's get REALLY real here. I have intrusive thinking from various traumata including and especially self-inflicted ones from adolescence 45 years ago. There are more ways of self-harming than cutting oneself. When it's bad, it's very very bad indeed. Along with chronic pain, underachievement, marriage and family breakdown, insecurity, early geriatrics (trapped sciatic, cervical/thoracic nerves, IBS, diabetes), etc, etc this constributes to 'mild' depression, especially on waking on weekdays.
And God is with me in this. Suffers with me. I praise Him for His tender mercies. For all respite. Barely. Barely coherently. I read Brian McLaren and work with desperate, broken, socially irredeemable poor, mentally ill, addicted, substance abusing people a few hours a week and experience disconnection AND affirmation at the same time.
NONE of them will make it in this life.
Neither will I: when I do get cancer (skin, prostate, bowel, lung, stomach), if I live long enough with my damaged faculties. Of which I will NOT be healed. As I won't be of dementia, stroke, heart disease, liver and renal failure.
Prayer that does not start and end with thanks and praise IN all this - when it could - cannot be 'rewarded'.
My children will continue to drain my savings which are to pay of my ex-wife's mortgage, I will die in the next 20 years at most (hopefully!) in mentally and physically crippled poverty.
So ? All we can do is invoke Him, Father, Son and Holy Ghost ALL the time, in the Cloud of Unknowing.
Is rejoice. In our grimness Our light affliction.
All will be well and therefore all IS well.
[ 18. July 2012, 12:56: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
quote:
It's all there - just look at the 7 churches of Revelation 2 & 3. Nothing new under the sun.
Spooky Mark strikes again.
Thats the teaching series we have been doing for the last 8 Sundays (Podcasts are available ).
Now that is an impressive word Mr Mark (although i may just being credulous).
Either that or you've been checking our website
I do know where Whitley Bay is - the Geography degree does help a bit in all fairness. But, no, I haven't accessed your web site.
If you take the suggestion to read Revelation 2 & 3 as a word, well thank God for giving it in the first place, not me for passing it on. All I can say is don't just read it, do what it says and above all, be careful out there! Been around in churches (in leadership and as a mediator in troubled churches) long enough (35 years plus)to recognise that the truth is out there but so are lies and deceptions. Roaring lions aren't all Aslan you know.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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CSL1
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# 17168
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
...almost inevitably a kind of swoozy-woozy atmosphere about half or two-thirds of the way through any contemporary 'worship-set' even if the praise band isn't trying to hype things up necessarily. It's the way the songs work. You could achieve similar effects by singing 'Mull of Kintyre' over and over again.
Oh yes, they've done research on this, and though I'm by no means knowledgeable in the field, I;'ve read that repeated use of a phrase, such as oft happens in the praise songs such churches employ ("Yes Lord, yes Lord, yes, yes, Lord, yes Lord, yes, Lord, yes yes Lord, etc. etc. etc., repeat in crowded, hot environment with friends about, eyes closed, hands raised, expectations high, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, longer) can produce an altered state of consciousness that may have nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. Hindus, Buddists and others have stumbled upon this as well, of course they call it a "mantra", and in my opinion, have given the phenomenon false spiritual significance.
Posts: 172 | Registered: Jun 2012
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Agreed.
Not all use of repetition can be harmful, but we do have to bear the warnings about 'vain repetitions' in mind ... it's funny though, how some of the worst exponents of the practice criticise more liturgical traditions for this when babbling away themselves 19 to the dozen ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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CSL1
Shipmate
# 17168
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Agreed.
Not all use of repetition can be harmful, but we do have to bear the warnings about 'vain repetitions' in mind ... it's funny though, how some of the worst exponents of the practice criticise more liturgical traditions for this when babbling away themselves 19 to the dozen ...
Isn't that the truth! I'd take a good solemn liturgy accompanied by ancient hymns on the organ over the forced hand waving, matra-esque, "Let's all get excited, now, come on, why aren't you as excited as me, bro?" repetition any day.
Posts: 172 | Registered: Jun 2012
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beatmenace
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# 16955
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Posted
quote:
I don't have a problem with the way you are using 'seasons' in the sense that it might apply as follows (to give a fictitious example):
Gamaliel,
Its sounds like we are more or less in agreement here (see my earlier post on this).
The changes i described as 'seasons' earlier havn't been particularly planned and you can see more clearly in hindsight how they can be demarked as 'stages' in a churches life.
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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NJA
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# 13022
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Posted
Unless I missed it, no-one seems to have drawn attention to the bible reference to gold dust in worship:
"And he took the (golden) calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it" (Exodus 32:20)
Aaron then blames the people and that it kind of just happened:
"For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. And I said to them, Whosoever has any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf."
Posts: 1283 | From: near London | Registered: Sep 2007
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Whenever I hear of this phenomenon, I imagine the younger John MacEnroe going to church and shouting insistently: 'I saw gold-dust!'
Am I the only one?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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beatmenace
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# 16955
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Posted
quote:
Unless I missed it, no-one seems to have drawn attention to the bible reference to gold dust in worship:
"And he took the (golden) calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it" (Exodus 32:20)
NJA - might be a bit of a Golden Herring that.
I think the spontaneous story of the calf's birth is just Aaron trying to claim to Moses that it 'really was a god, honest guv, and nuffink to do wiv me'
Any how Moses isnt fooled by that - 'come on, you made it yourself didn't you?' 'Well yes'.
The Gold Dust was the Golden Calf ground to powder (by Moses) and added to the water as a punishment for their unfaithfulness.
If you want to link the Gold Dust sign to a reminder of not making any Idols - then feel free to do so - its as good an interpretaion as any and i certainly cant argue agaist it. I hadn't thought of that one.
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Altered states of consciousness are not biblically normative at all, easily invoked and are nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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CSL1
Shipmate
# 17168
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Altered states of consciousness are not biblically normative at all, easily invoked and are nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.
I tend to agree, and too many Christians have made these the bedrock of their worship. They want the flash, they don't want the substance.
Simply taking up a cross and following Jesus, serving widows and orphans, being the last in line, willing to do the most degrading jobs around the fellowship, being a servant of all without calling attention to self, that's too tedious. People want An Experience, they want something that will call attention to themselves ("I saw the Spirit of God hovering during our worship!" "I caused three legs to grow out this week!" "I can read your mail!") that will cause people to respect them look at them and say "What an anointing!", to fear them even (see Mark Driscoll).
Doing the real work of the church is just too prosaic.
[ 19. July 2012, 15:43: Message edited by: CSL1 ]
Posts: 172 | Registered: Jun 2012
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justlooking
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# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by windsofchange:
Just out of curiosity, has anyone either tasted this stuff, or rubbed their eyes after touching it?
If it's mica it probably wouldn't do any harm because this is used in cosmetics as well as in craft materials.
It's also used widely in electrical products and insulating materials so it may be a component of heating and ventilation systems. I think it would be very easy to fake these 'glory clouds' using ground mica but could it occasionally happen accidentally via damaged electrical systems?
IMO most of the reported occurrences are likely to be faked. None of the youtube 'evidence' I've seen is remotely convincing. I wouldn't close the door completely on spiritual manifestations but I think they are rare.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Birdseye
I can see my house from here!
# 5280
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Posted
That shimmery stuff on their hands looks exactly like the shimmery stuff on my hands when I've applied my usual moisturising day-cream with added 'luminescence' -which ALSO comes off on my hands if I then put my hands on my face.
But it could be bronzing powder or simple sweat -which can also sometimes twinkle a little -urea is a little bit yellow after all...
Well if it helps people to grow in their discipleship and give them encouragement as they walk the path of suffering in the hopes of the resurrection and eternal life with Christ... And if it helps them to expand their minds a little bit and recognise the great mystery that is the loving sustaining power of God...
... and as long as it DOESN'T mislead them into thinking that THIS world is heaven and it's going to rain money on them because Jesus is a sugar-daddy who wants to buy your affection...
... or shift their focus away from seeking Christ and onto seeking an exciting worldly experience
... then it's probably alright.
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Life is what happens whilst you're busy making other plans.
a birdseye view
Posts: 1615 | From: West Yorkshire | Registered: Dec 2003
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
CSL1 : "I caused three legs to grow out this week!" LOL! Well sol. In our desperate 'charismatic evangelical' fellowship of 750 people that covers the best that the healing on the streets team has claimed from the congregation in two years. No wonder the vicar doesn't ask any more.
Is anybody ever prayed for in healing prayer sessions on how to endure with cancer or bipolarity or dementia or dropsy or teenagers UNTIL they are healed ?
[ 19. July 2012, 19:53: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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catthefat
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# 8586
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Posted
I can't see bhow it's "probably alright" to believe something that is a lie. Do lies ever lead to the truth?
Posts: 143 | From: nottingham uk | Registered: Sep 2004
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CSL1
Shipmate
# 17168
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by catthefat:
I can't see bhow it's "probably alright" to believe something that is a lie. Do lies ever lead to the truth?
No, the type discussed typically lead to pompous pinky ring wearing evangelists, abusive systems devised by those who want to zealously guard their status as "anointed", gullible believers who lust after experience rather than truth, loss of the ability to engage in rational thought, shallow belief systems, heresies, apostasies, death.
Posts: 172 | Registered: Jun 2012
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windsofchange
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# 13000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by windsofchange:
Reminds me of when I was in high school and got involved in a Charismatic prayer group. The leader, a very charismatic (small c intentional), was always telling us about the wonderful things she was seeing as we prayed - a bright blue ribbon floating over our heads; a rainbow; a "cloud of glory" (whatever that might have been).
And, wanting to please her (because she was a teacher and SO COOL!), we would always smile and agree that we saw it too! And try very, very hard to believe it.
The Emperor's new clothes had nothing on the Charismatic Prayer Group Leader's newest miracle. But they had about the same amount of substance.
This sounds rather like a visual migraine. Or just possibly synesthesia, though mine isn't so well-defined. She may have been deluded herself.
Just sayin'.
Hmm, I had migraines too (growing up; they decreased as I got older, one of nicer things about aging ); but never saw anything really cool like that. Just auras and flashing dots.
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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on." (owner of Coney Island Freak Show, upon learning someone outbid him for a 5-legged puppy)
Posts: 153 | From: Reseda, CA, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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Ramarius
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# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
CSL1 : "I caused three legs to grow out this week!" LOL! Well sol. In our desperate 'charismatic evangelical' fellowship of 750 people that covers the best that the healing on the streets team has claimed from the congregation in two years. No wonder the vicar doesn't ask any more.
Is anybody ever prayed for in healing prayer sessions on how to endure with cancer or bipolarity or dementia or dropsy or teenagers UNTIL they are healed ?
Yes - very much so. It's a journey we walk with people, even if it ends in death.
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I can't speak to the migraines from experience, only from verbal and artistic description of the auras. But as for synesthesia, what caught my attention was the fact that she wasn't describing (I think) any terribly well-defined item such as an angel or a trumpet or something, her claims as described are of shapes and colors--a blue ribbon, a cloud of glory. And that is similar to how my colored hearing operates. I don't see defined items such as a hairbrush or a Chihuahua, I see cones and moving ribbons and colored slashes of light. Sometimes o-rings and surfaces of various textures and directions.
I've always had colored letters and numbers. But I did not become aware of my colored hearing until about six years ago, (and just realized I have some colored/shaped TASTE last week, yikes--strong garlic in tomato soup is a very clear smooth yellow cylinder if you were wondering, laid right across the middle of the bowl.)
I tell you all that because I imagine she might have had synesthesia all her life but only recently had it move to the forefront of her attention, like my hearing and taste forms. In which case she might very well have mistaken it for something supernatural. Having been aware of it from an early age, I knew perfectly well it meant I was just a neurological weirdo.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
The church in the developing world does seem to experience more of the direct power of the Spirit. Maybe because their worldview is less cluttered by materialism and all our other many 'isms'.
Yep, instead it's cluttered by all their other many 'isms' instead. I think the desire to control the transcendent and have it on tap is pretty universal.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Yes. And there's no particular merit if you aren't materialist because you haven't (yet) got the material to be -istic about, yet.
Wait till they get here and go off the deep end. (Been dealing with the fall-out of that crap for a couple decades now)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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