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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Oh, Grow Up!
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
In a recent (and lengthy) article in 'Christianity Today', one Thomas E. Bergler describes what he views as the juvenilization of American (Evangelical) Christianity. He posits that the American Evangelical church has essentially adopted a youth group-like atmosphere since the success of youth ministries way back in the day.
He says this a a reason why the American Evangelical church has been able to adapt easily to changing times, but also points out some obvious pitfalls of an 'adolescent' church: primarily that church has become more about 'me' than anything else.
What do other shipmates think? Does he have a point, or is he off his rocker? If you agree with the basic premise, then do you arrive at the same conclusions?
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
Kind of reminds me of Paul saying that he has been feeding the Corinthians milk because of their spiritual immaturity. The more things change, the more they stay the same...
--Tom Clune
[ 30. July 2012, 15:10: Message edited by: tclune ]
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
I have seen similar things over on this side of the pond as well. It may appeal to young people (and wannabe 'young' people) but I think many may feel they have outgrown such a worship style after a few years and go elsewhere. I'm afraid I find such services patronizing and unfulfilling, although I may have enjoyed them for a while back in the day.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
That was what first came to my mind when I saw the OP, Tom.
In the case of the Corinthians they seemed to be arguing about a lot of minor problems, but Paul definitely reacts to the "We are the 'in' crowd attitude." Very much an adolescent thing which we still see even today.
Whenever I see a "Praise Service" I see a lot of emotional release, but very little in depth substance in the sermon or the hymns. It is all about feeling good, but very little about how to do good.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I have seen similar things over on this side of the pond as well. It may appeal to young people (and wannabe 'young' people) but I think many may feel they have outgrown such a worship style after a few years and go elsewhere. I'm afraid I find such services patronizing and unfulfilling, although I may have enjoyed them for a while back in the day.
But maybe the (divine?) purpose of these churches is to draw in and christianise young people; once they've been converted and acculturated, then they can move on to more sedate, 'mature' forms of Christianity, and their places can be taken by a new generation.
Conversely, perhaps we should be grateful for churches that are dominated by the elderly, because sooner or later we'll be among that number, and presumably we'd prefer to be in churches that focus on meeting our specific needs and catering to our tastes....
[ 30. July 2012, 15:04: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But maybe the (divine?) purpose of these churches is to draw in and christianise young people; once they've been converted and acculturated, then they can move on to more sedate, 'mature' forms of Christianity, and their places can be taken by a new generation.
That might be nice if it happened - though it would still be worrying. In reality, tehse things just end up as grown up youth groups (Willow Creek et al).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Conversely, perhaps we should be grateful for churches that are dominated by the elderly, because sooner or later we'll be among that number, and presumably we'd prefer to be in churches that focus on meeting our specific needs and catering to our tastes....
But the concern being expressed appears to be that we never grow beyond the stage of expecting our needs to be met, and our tastes to be served.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Chris
It would be interesting to compare places like Willow Creek with earlier religious movements. The sociologists tell us that eventually they all succumb to a more settled, routinised, respectable way of doing things.
As for spiritual maturity, at some point, this will be equated with theological sophistication and higher educational training for the clergy.On the thread about evangelicalism and fundamentalism there's talk of evangelical clergy who are left deeply challenged by their theological studies. While there are complaints that congregations don't take this scholarship on board, my view is that evangelical churches are already undergoing transformation if they've started demanding pastors with PhDs. Perhaps it's just a matter of time, but they're going to end up in a different place from where they've started.
Maybe it's just too soon to expect this kind of transformation of places like Willow Creek (presuming that this is a good thing, of course). Are they into the second generation yet? I.e. do they have young men born and raised in this church, and ready to take over? The third? I don't think they can be expected to turn into the Presbyterians/Lutherans/etc. in one single generation....
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Lothiriel
Shipmate
# 15561
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Posted
ISTM that evangelical theology, certainly on its more fundamentalist side, is adolescent in its stark absolute dichotomies, literal and inerrant all-or-nothing approach to scripture, disdain of the authority of tradition, and so on. The critical thinking, nuance, and tolerance of ambiguity that are characteristic of a more adult way of thinking are missing. So, given an adolescent theology, it's not surprising that the culture seems adolescent as well.
I rationalize my brief sojourn in fundamentalist circles with "Well, I was a teenager at the time."
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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery
my blog
Posts: 538 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Mar 2010
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
Considering Americans have an obsession with youth, especially baby boomers who are trying look and act like they're still in their 20's it's not surprising that American churches are buying into it as well. We boomers are also known as the "me" generation. I recall the "Jesus People" when I was growing up and first in missions in the 60's and 70's. Some called for radical denying of self, but others started the "Jesus is my boyfriend" trend in Christianity.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I have seen similar things over on this side of the pond as well. It may appeal to young people (and wannabe 'young' people) but I think many may feel they have outgrown such a worship style after a few years and go elsewhere. I'm afraid I find such services patronizing and unfulfilling, although I may have enjoyed them for a while back in the day.
I think there is a much more general problem here. I belonged to a caravanning club (members have an average age of 58). The club is aware that they need to recruit younger people but many of the present membership don't approve (young people play music after 10pm, make a lot of noise laughing and talking, eat foreign food, and their kids are badly behaved).
If you pander to the existing membership, numbers will drop and eventually ..., alternatively you 'juvenilize' the club and lose a lot of older members. Same problem it seems to me.
Don't know what churches should do - my solution was to join a club which welcomes younger people. And though they can be annoying at times, so can I (my wife says). I also wonder if in due course they'll grow up and become as wise and serious as me (or just as old, boring, out of touch and fuddy duddy).
[ 30. July 2012, 16:06: Message edited by: que sais-je ]
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Maybe it's just too soon to expect this kind of transformation of places like Willow Creek (presuming that this is a good thing, of course). Are they into the second generation yet? I.e. do they have young men born and raised in this church, and ready to take over? The third?
No, but having grown up in a baby boomer orientated church that grew out of a youth group, they tend not to settle in Willow Creek, and go off to a newer younger church.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
What I think the article fails to address is how far this juvenilisation of the church is merely a reflection of exactly the same tendencies in the wider society. Given that, it's hardly a surprise that the church has gone the same way, and to some extent it's entirely appropriate. The challenge for the church is surely to provide the structures that can enable people to grow into maturity when they are ready.
An important element of the 'Seeker Friendly' approach to church is that SUNDAY ISN'T FELLOWSHIP. The true fellowship of the church occurs on another day, in small groups - providing an institutional structure to enable personal relationship to grow - and in the interactions between church members that should be happening at other times. Unfortunately this is a radical challenge to the tradition of church that equates Sunday services with EVERYTHING, and doesn't give priority to other forms of fellowship. This is as a result of the forms of church life being set when society was radically different, when there was plenty of potential for people to have fellowship naturally during the week. However these days it isn't happening; instead a lot of people don't interact with their Christian sisters and brothers except on Sunday.
So it's in that context any particular church needs to be assessed: is it providing the means of support for people to move forward as things hit them, causing them to grow as the NT suggests 'Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4 And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.'
James 1:2-4
The other issue is to raise is to question how perfect the previous model was. Yes, people came along to church out of a sense of duty, but was there anything more 'real' going on then than there is now. To assume the past was perfect and the present is totally flawed, whilst attractive, is bunkum. The fact that the expectation was the faith would fade - as it has done in Europe - is surely an indicator that it wasn't as healthy as the writer suggests.
And that is FAR more than enough ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
ISTM that, with the loss of several generations of churchgoers, there was a necessity for new ways of church to cater for babies / children / adolescent Christians (which may not be related to their physical age!). There was a hope that those who embraced the new ways would naturally migrate to 'mature' traditional church in time, but it didn't often happen.
I think that the reasons for that may be:
a) social cohesion with the worship group
b) an exclusivity which may be encouraged by the leaders
c) familiarity
d) a perceived lack of welcome by traditional church congregations
All is not lost. New young churches have broken away over the centuries, to become the Methodists / Baptists / Salvation Army / Quakers.....
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
I spent 25 years in evnagelical churches 18 in a baptist gropup thatwent very praise & worship, signs & wonders. By the last 5 years the hymnals were in boxes, the worship songs , I can not call them hymms were happy clappy and if you weren't running around happyh then you had a spiritual problem. The preaching barely rememberable .Grow negative and it finally packed it in. I returned to the Anglican fold.
But I am left wondering just what was I doing those 18 years ? As for the conections between people ? Very superfical .But thats the way of many evangical churches .And authority pastor rule was order of the day and no one to appeal to eithert.
If I sound a bit bent out of shape it's cause I ended up feeling an outsider .Ks not the church a family ? We need to show that bgift of agape love otherwise maybe open a golf course. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
I spent 25 years in evnagelical churches 18 in a baptist gropup thatwent very praise & worship, signs & wonders. By the last 5 years the hymnals were in boxes, the worship songs , I can not call them hymms were happy clappy and if you weren't running around happyh then you had a spiritual problem. The preaching barely rememberable .Grow negative and it finally packed it in. I returned to the Anglican fold.
But I am left wondering just what was I doing those 18 years ? As for the conections between people ? Very superfical .But thats the way of many evangical churches .And authority pastor rule was order of the day and no one to appeal to eithert.
If I sound a bit bent out of shape it's cause I ended up feeling an outsider .Ks not the church a family ? We need to show that bgift of agape love otherwise maybe open a golf course.
I wonder whether we're all in danger of looking for a place where we feel that we belong with other worshippers, as opposed to looking for the place where God wants us to worship him?
Jesus said that foxes had holes and birds had nests, but there was nowhere for him to rest his head. He was an outsider. Following Christ isn't easy, is it?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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CSL1
Shipmate
# 17168
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Posted
One of the troubling things about this phenomenon is that leaders have used it to set themselves up as the "adults in the room". I've thrice in the last half dozen years had personal encounters/debates with pastors who referred to themselves as "fathers" and laity as "children". This has the effect of devaluing the priesthood of all believers and encourages abusive, cultic systems.
Posts: 172 | Registered: Jun 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I wonder whether we're all in danger of looking for a place where we feel that we belong with other worshippers, as opposed to looking for the place where God wants us to worship him?
Jesus said that foxes had holes and birds had nests, but there was nowhere for him to rest his head. He was an outsider. Following Christ isn't easy, is it?
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
I've thrice in the last half dozen years had personal encounters/debates with pastors who referred to themselves as "fathers" and laity as "children". This has the effect of devaluing the priesthood of all believers and encourages abusive, cultic systems.
That's horrendous, and too right it devalues the priesthood of all believers! In my view, the task of church leaders is to provide an example that others will hopefully choose to follow and to facilitate others in fulfilling their God-given callings.
Ephesians 4:11 comes to mind, in which Paul says the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers are to 'equip God's people for works of service', not merely to do works of service themselves.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I wonder whether we're all in danger of looking for a place where we feel that we belong with other worshippers, as opposed to looking for the place where God wants us to worship him?
Jesus said that foxes had holes and birds had nests, but there was nowhere for him to rest his head. He was an outsider. Following Christ isn't easy, is it?
Rubbish - whatever else the church is supposed to model, it's supposed to model true relationships, and that is what we get clear hints of in the NT. The fact that we've settled for the crap that passes for fellowship in churches these days is very sad. The attempt above to suggest that it should be normal is downright dangerous.
Jesus sent his disciples out two by two as a minimum. His disciples were a close fellowship. They built close fellowships when they established churches. Unfortunately we've seldom experienced it - so settle for far less. Frank Viola in 'Reimagining Church' makes the point that the NT refers to us meeting (Acts 2:46) and encouraging one another (Heb 3:13) DAILY, whereas most of us don't see our sisters and brothers more than once a week... We're 'too busy'. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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CSL1
Shipmate
# 17168
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Ephesians 4:11 comes to mind, in which Paul says the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers are to 'equip God's people for works of service', not merely to do works of service themselves.
Exactly. I've used that very passage to try and exhort people to emerge from this professional priest/amateur parishoner delusion. Living in the U.S. South, I've used the NASCAR analogy of pastor as equipper/lug nut spinner--parishoner as works-doer/race driver.
Too many with bona fide spiritual gifts sit on the sidelines and idly watch professionals do the "work of the church". Such a system encourages professionals to think more than they ought of their own contributions and less than they ought of the laity's; it encourages cults of personality, weekly pastoral axe grinding, laziness among laity, frustration among overworked pastors, frustration among over-preached-to church members.
[ 30. July 2012, 21:46: Message edited by: CSL1 ]
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
In a recent (and lengthy) article in 'Christianity Today', one Thomas E. Bergler describes what he views as the juvenilization of American (Evangelical) Christianity. He posits that the American Evangelical church has essentially adopted a youth group-like atmosphere since the success of youth ministries way back in the day.
Pete Ward in "Growing Up Evangelical" suggests that each adult evangelical culture (in Britain) is derived from the youthwork culture of the previous. So a similar thesis has been advanced here, too.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Pete Ward in "Growing Up Evangelical" suggests that each adult evangelical culture (in Britain) is derived from the youthwork culture of the previous. So a similar thesis has been advanced here, too.
This comes through in worship planning, even in my non-"evangelical" church. The Boomers always favor the songs that, it always turns out, they knew from Sunday School in years past. They seem to forget that, at worship in a Lutheran church around here in the mid-20th century, they were not singing the campfire revivalist songs that their Sunday School music leader chose, they were singing out of the old Lutheran hymnals.
To change gears, and to piggyback on the mention of Willow Creek earlier, I'll mention that I heard Robert Schuller (of Crystal Cathedral) fame once preach that he was often surprised when the members of his church did not eventually move on for more spiritual growth. He openly acknowledged that he had a seeker sort of place. Of course, this is the part of the 35-minute sermon that got cut out when they shortened it to 15 minutes for TV. (I had been expecting a feel-good sermon of platitudes, and instead was floored with a well-written, excellently-delivered, scholarly sermon.)
[ 31. July 2012, 00:37: Message edited by: Martin L ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Here in Lutherland the neverending-youth-group model for church isn't as widespread as perhaps elsewhere in Christendom...but at least in my observation it's baby-boomer pastors and lay leadership, not children or youth, who push the "praise" agenda. They think it's cutting edge. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
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Jolly Jape
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# 3296
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Posted
I thinks its a bit of a shame that contemporary worship services (for want of a better term) are being equated to shallow content and infantilising leadership style. There is no per se correlation between the two: traditional "Vicar knows best" styles are just as disempowering as anything offered by churches who go in for "praise services". In fact, more so.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
It's funny to read this as it casts my own current situation in a new light for me. I've spent the past four months in an evangelical Anglican church. In the past I've basically been broadly catholic in my theology and Orthodox as my official label.
Right now I am going to the evangelical church on Sunday nights and during the week because they've been so welcoming and have formed my new social circle since moving to a new area. The Orthodox church where I feel most theologially and spiritually at home is incredibly insular and greek and I haven't had anything like the same sort of response from the people there. I'm naturally quite a shy person and people have talked to me but it's all been in a 'coffee after church' way rather than the more informal 'come and meet up for a drink' Anglican style.
I find the evangelical worship okay, but I can't rate the sermons. I feel like there's no meat to it. When I pray I still find myself praying the old Orthodox prayers that I grew up with mixed in with learning to talk to God as a real presence in my life in a way I've only thought about since I went to visit it Anglicans.
I think what evangelical churches do very well is community and that has stuck out massively for me in my own personal experience.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I spent something over thirty years working in youth ministries and I don't recognise the suggestion that youthworkers as a group are interested in either fostering or perpetuating an adolescent church culture. Seeking to encourage a greater accessibility has the purpose of encouraging folks to get to "square one", not encouraging them to stay at "square one". Is there a Christian anywhere who believes our destiny is to stay as we are?
I think LutheranChik has a good point. Most young people who come into Christianity, by whatever means, are not looking for that kind of misunderstanding of where they are at. In the UK, for a young person to self-identify as Christian is not exactly going to gain them peer-group credibility. I've heard their stories. For many of of them, it's a serious and self-aware step, deserving to be treated seriously.
But Jolly Jape's point is good too. The equation of contemporary worship with trivial approaches to faith is also misplaced.
There does seem to me to be a lot of stereotyping in this thread.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
I take the point the OP is making and it is not wrong (imho). However sometimes it feels to me those who have "grown up" are simply one step further but just as stuck.
A deeper and more complicated liturgy does not maturity make.
We seem to have lost the idea that we all need to "grow up" all the time. It never stops, it never ends. It ill behooves anyone to pick sawdust from the eye of others until they are sure their own plank is removed.
How is your maturity? Are you still burning with passion for God? Are you daily letting go of the things of this world? Is sainthood your aim?
So you grew out of enjoying worship and have adjusted to liking boredom, since when was worship style been a mark of maturity?
AtB Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
How is your maturity? Are you still burning with passion for God? Are you daily letting go of the things of this world? Is sainthood your aim?
So you grew out of enjoying worship and have adjusted to liking boredom, since when was worship style been a mark of maturity?
AtB Pyx_e
For some of us gaining maturity meant realizing just how wonderful many of those "boring old hymns" are at giving a glimpse of the glory of God. I still remember my first time back in a church with the traditional Lutheran Church Missouri Synod morning order of service. That was after having been part of the "happy clappy" charismatic evangelical scene for a few years. I had been looking down on the "boring, dead church" prior to that and that attitude was a sign of my chronological as well as spiritual immaturity.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
All valid points Pyx_e.
But I would point out that the article focused on more than just style of worship. It especially focused on the attitude behind what we do. A quote from the author that got my attention:
quote:
Today many Americans of all ages not only accept a Christianized version of adolescent narcissism, they often celebrate it as authentic spirituality. God, faith, and the church all exist to help me with my problems.
That is something that I have observed as well, and while I think that is a component of going to church; I see the danger of making that the whole point of going to church.
As you say, we need to all be striving to increase in maturity, to grow in our passion for God, to live a saintly life; and I have no doubt that many Evangelicals do a better job at all three than I do! However, I'm not sure how much of that is because of or in spite of the environments in which we find ourselves.
I guess that's the main thrust of the article (in my view) and more what I'm interesting in hearing shippies' opinions on.
I actually don't have strong opinions about the article myself, I'm more interested in hearing others' thoughts.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
We seem to have lost the idea that we all need to "grow up" all the time. It never stops, it never ends. It ill behooves anyone to pick sawdust from the eye of others until they are sure their own plank is removed.
How is your maturity? Are you still burning with passion for God? Are you daily letting go of the things of this world? Is sainthood your aim?
Is sainthood my aim? What a searching question that is... It's a question that really cuts to the heart of the frustration I have just now with the church in general and with plenty of my Christian friends. We don't want to talk about the things of God and how we are growing in maturity; we don't want to learn from those who are more advanced in the areas we struggle with.
Why don't our churches have sessions or mentoring schemes, whereby those who are more advanced in, for example, patience or generosity get to instruct and nurture those of us who struggle in those areas? Sainthood doesn't just happen, we have to train and strive for it, right? And if we train badly, then just like a budding athlete who trains badly, we won't grow and develop fully.
So maybe the article in the OP is right, that some of the practices in many US evangelical churches are conducive to spiritual immaturity. But, like others have said above, I think it's a very widespread issue. It takes a different form as you look from one denomination to another, that's all.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Cinderella with amnesia? Pyx_e's post seems to answer my rhetorical question
quote:
Is there a Christian anywhere who believes our destiny is to stay as we are?
with a "yes, indeed"
I hope he is wrong, but on reflection I fear he may be seeing something important. Great post, Pyx_e. Gets to the heart of the matter, really.
I don't like generalisations, but maybe there is something in the thought that lifelong adolescence is becoming "the spirit of the age" - in the Western world at least. That's one export the rest of the world can well do without.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Some say that the vast majority of Christians never get beyond the Sunday School level of understanding. And that's in your average, MOTR church!
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
quote:
Some say that the vast majority of Christians never get beyond the Sunday School level of understanding. And that's in your average, MOTR church!
Point taken. That even describes a good chunk of my own congregation.
Our frustration is when and how to engage people in catechesis/spiritual formation. There are a host of practical and local-cultural reasons why our people are unable/unwilling to sit in a class (which at our place means sitting on a sofa up in the lounge) or spend a Saturday at a mini-retreat. And it's unrealistic to expect the RCL and a 20-minute sermon on Sundays are going to carry that load on their own.
To me, it seems that we need to be helping individuals and households develop a domestic spiritual practice and giving them tools to study the Bible and basics of our theology on their own time/at their own pace. Another frustration, though: Our area is so backward technologically and educationally that it's not a given that our members have regular access to the Internet. I do what I can on our online properties, but realistically that's only reaching about 50 people out of a 250-member congregation on a regular basis.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
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South Coast Kevin
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
To me, it seems that we need to be helping individuals and households develop a domestic spiritual practice and giving them tools to study the Bible and basics of our theology on their own time/at their own pace.
Agreed completely. It's not about the church (by which I mean the institution) providing the teaching for people, it's about people being excited about God so they want to become more fruitful spiritually, and then the church leaders / staff merely directing that process.
Obviously, I'm just raising another question, though - how exactly can one contribute to getting others excited about God? Pray, pray, pray, I suppose. Model it for ourselves, share our own excitement. Perhaps - this might be controversial - focus on those who seem interested and keen to grow spiritually, rather than on those who are less inclined this way. I don't know - any ideas, folks?!
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Agreed completely. It's not about the church (by which I mean the institution) providing the teaching for people, it's about people being excited about God so they want to become more fruitful spiritually, and then the church leaders / staff merely directing that process.
This is what constitutes revival! So pray for Revival!
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I wonder whether we're all in danger of looking for a place where we feel that we belong with other worshippers, as opposed to looking for the place where God wants us to worship him?
Jesus said that foxes had holes and birds had nests, but there was nowhere for him to rest his head. He was an outsider. Following Christ isn't easy, is it?
Rubbish - whatever else the church is supposed to model, it's supposed to model true relationships, and that is what we get clear hints of in the NT. The fact that we've settled for the crap that passes for fellowship in churches these days is very sad. The attempt above to suggest that it should be normal is downright dangerous.
Jesus sent his disciples out two by two as a minimum. His disciples were a close fellowship. They built close fellowships when they established churches. Unfortunately we've seldom experienced it - so settle for far less. Frank Viola in 'Reimagining Church' makes the point that the NT refers to us meeting (Acts 2:46) and encouraging one another (Heb 3:13) DAILY, whereas most of us don't see our sisters and brothers more than once a week... We're 'too busy'.
My point was not that churches shouldn't model good relationships, or that fellowship isn't important.
My point was that looking for a church which will suit us, in which we think we'll fit in (or be able to compromise so that we do) is not the same thing as going where God wants us to be. Often when we do the latter, we don't feel as if we 'belong', like Jesus. In fact, sometimes people may be unkind to us, as their idea of relationship is on their terms only.
If we persevere, God may work through us, but it will be to his glory, not ours.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Ender's Shadow
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
My point was that looking for a church which will suit us, in which we think we'll fit in (or be able to compromise so that we do) is not the same thing as going where God wants us to be. Often when we do the latter, we don't feel as if we 'belong', like Jesus. In fact, sometimes people may be unkind to us, as their idea of relationship is on their terms only.
If we persevere, God may work through us, but it will be to his glory, not ours.
Fair point, but it was your reference to 'worship' that triggered my reaction; it suggested that what's important is how well the liturgy is performed and nothing else. Given your broader explanation I accept your point. I personally would rate that element quite low - but I'm aware it is important to others; we need to be careful it doesn't become the only test.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
I reflected on South Coast Kevin's post quite a lot. I think the mobile society has to some extent severed the historical link with 'elders'. Coupled with the worship of youth, it is now more generally true that 'older' means 'past it' rather than 'wiser'. So the value of mentoring, or discipling, learning from someone who has been on the road longer, is less obvious than it once was.
I'm against an unthinking acceptance and am rather glad to live in a more questioning world, one in which folks are less inclined to give too mjch credence to 'elders'. But maybe many folks have gone too much the othet way?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I'm against an unthinking acceptance and am rather glad to live in a more questioning world, one in which folks are less inclined to give too mjch credence to 'elders'. But maybe many folks have gone too much the othet way?
Double-edged sword, isn't it?! I'd hate to live in a culture where I was expected to automatically obey someone older than me. But in my (admittedly limited) experience of associating with Christians, I've seen very little conscious desire, let alone intentional action, to imitate those more mature in the faith.
Having said that, I've also come across very little explicit teaching about this, either in sermons, programmes to link people up with mentors, or the idea I mentioned above of sessions on things like patience, gentleness etc. It seems most people (church leaders and non-leaders alike) are content to leave spiritual formation to chance, almost.
/Glass half-empty whine.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Sorry for the typos, Kevin, it was an early morning contribution using my smartfone. My grandson was the biggest help to me in learning how to use mobile phones - he just seems to be able to pick them up and make them work without reading the instructions.
Which is kind of the point. He has an expertise. But when it comes to other kinds of learning, his lack of experience can catch him out.
The wisdom seems to come from recognising the relative relevances of experience and expertise. A good mentor re RL relational issues (whether human or divine) may need to do some adjustment to the impact of new technologies on the way folks relate, but the communications medium doesn't change the questions of value - such as respect, listening, not jumping to conclusions etc.
Maybe experience is the crucible for learning values?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I've seen very little conscious desire, let alone intentional action, to imitate those more mature in the faith.
Who are "those more mature in the faith"? Has what "maturity" means in this context actually been defined yet?
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Hail Gallaxhar
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
It's not a matter of years, Marvin. I think it means "more like Christ". Which might also require more definition!
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It's not a matter of years, Marvin. I think it means "more like Christ". Which might also require more definition!
Yes, that's all I meant - more like Christ or, if you prefer, living a life characterised by the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:20-whatever-it-is.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Ender's Shadow
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# 2272
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Posted
I think part of the problem is that there is a prejudice against modern worship songs that assumes, without evidence, that they lack content. It is interesting to compare All glory laud and honour which is the height of respectability, with There is a higher Throne', whilst Abide with Me and I can only imagine seem to be cut from the same cloth. You may not like the STYLE, and the fact that the new generation lets their emotions show - but the contents really aren't so different.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
Ender's Shadow, the end of the world must be nigh! A wholehearted
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Bax
Shipmate
# 16572
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Posted
I think this an interesting discussion and raises important points.
However, personal tastes and/or temperament should not get confused with the essential argument here.
E.g. the fact that I like plainsong that has been around for 100s of years does not make me "mature"
or the fact that you use eclectic guitars and never use a worship song that is more that 5 years old does not make you in touch with contemporary society.
Any form of church with any true form of worship should take us beyond ourselves and help us to meet God, in church and in our neighbour (for instance) and not just make us feel good about ourselves. The different traditions have different risks associated. As I see it, none are "the right way" in opposition to others (although some might be wrong...)
If this particular tradition of Christianity (evangelicalism in the USA) has fallen into a trap, that does not mean "that's the end of it then, that tradition is now wrong" but rather like all churches it needs to grow and see where it has gone wrong and what needs to be done to make things better.
If I may say so, the foundation of protestantism at THE Reformation (with stress on "The", implying that this was a once for all thing & now in the past) is itself a trap. All churches need to be constantly "reforming" to a certain extent, while not loosing touch with the tradition.
As has already been pointed out, plus ca change....
Posts: 108 | Registered: Aug 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I'm against an unthinking acceptance and am rather glad to live in a more questioning world, one in which folks are less inclined to give too mjch credence to 'elders'. But maybe many folks have gone too much the othet way?
Double-edged sword, isn't it?! I'd hate to live in a culture where I was expected to automatically obey someone older than me. But in my (admittedly limited) experience of associating with Christians, I've seen very little conscious desire, let alone intentional action, to imitate those more mature in the faith.
Having said that, I've also come across very little explicit teaching about this, either in sermons, programmes to link people up with mentors, or the idea I mentioned above of sessions on things like patience, gentleness etc. It seems most people (church leaders and non-leaders alike) are content to leave spiritual formation to chance, almost.
/Glass half-empty whine.
As has been said, mentoring doesn't have to be a question of age. After all, many of our clergy are a lot younger than their congregations, yet they still get taken on to do the job!
I've come across ministers and lay preachers who have mentors, but it's not something that they seem to promote to their congregations at large. I wonder if, subconsciously, some clergy in different kinds of churches are actually a bit wary of their congregations becoming spiritually mature, and potentially surpassing them in this way? I once read an article about Anglican clergy in Wales, and it said that the trend for involving the laity more in the running of churches was actually making the clergy more possessive of the spiritual roles that they felt distinguished them from the laity. That's quite telling.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
I think part of the problem is that there is a prejudice against modern worship songs that assumes, without evidence, that they lack content. It is interesting to compare All glory laud and honour which is the height of respectability, with There is a higher Throne'
There certainly is a danger of forgetting the filtering effects of time that have left us with the better hymns and culled most of the rest. The modern hymns movement (Getty, Townsend etc) are a good thing - but it is a minority movement.
quote:
You may not like the STYLE, and the fact that the new generation lets their emotions show - but the contents really aren't so different.
It's not really about the allowing emotions to show IMO or even the use of contemporary music. It's about putting the aesthetics of the concert hall into Sunday worship, with all that implies in terms of assumed values.
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by SvitlanaV2
I've come across ministers and lay preachers who have mentors, but it's not something that they seem to promote to their congregations at large. I wonder if, subconsciously, some clergy in different kinds of churches are actually a bit wary of their congregations becoming spiritually mature, and potentially surpassing them in this way? I once read an article about Anglican clergy in Wales, and it said that the trend for involving the laity more in the running of churches was actually making the clergy more possessive of the spiritual roles that they felt distinguished them from the laity. That's quite telling.
This.
Whilst, no doubt, there are some pretty apathetic congregations around, it does seem to me that the clergy themselves are often the cork in the bottle.
There are lots of people in the congregation who are only too willing to move on, but who either a) feel themselves ill equipped to the task, or b) are not empowered to carry out the tasks for which they have the gifting by clergy who are sensitive about their "position" as the acknowledged spiritual leadership.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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