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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Losing faith in Sunday?
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
Do you trust a chef that doesn't eat their own food?
It has been a long standing niggle but now I am outting myself - I dish up week by week sunday services that, were I a free agent, would not choose to attend, except perhaps a sense of duty or loyalty.
It is not that I wish we had a different range of music, or a different liturgical tradition, those are only variations on a theme. I am uncomfortable with the expectations of worship that involve singing or saying words put into our mouths, sitting and standing in formation and listening to one person spouting off their view of what it is all about. Even the apparently radical and fresh still tend to fall into this basic formula.
I look out and am not surprised that so many people think church has nothing to say to their lives.
So I live in the tension of week by week doing what is required of me, and which is meaningful to the few, yet trying to imagine from within the box, from having always been in the box, what life and worship truely outside the box looks like.
Can we ever rethink worship outside the box? Should we? And if not then how would you deal with the tensions...
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I remember one time in Seminary I was to preach at a chapel service. I had prepared the standard tripe, if you will. It had been approved by my advisor as well. But I felt very uncomfortable with it. I had a lot of doubts about it. So, that service I got up and expressed my doubts. People were stunned. But one of the professors came up to me later and told me he thought it was the best chapel sermon he had heard.
If you think that people want something that they can apply directly to their lives, it is up to you to dish it out.
It is okay to go beyond expectations, in my book.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Corporate worship is such a part of our religious identity that it even predates Christianity itself, so I don't think elimination of it is a viable option.
For those who don't "do" worship, your premise would be a perfect opportunity to work with interfaith partners in your community abroad, or even through something like this, to determine alternative platforms where the organizational church and people of or exploring faith can "meet." Some of the world's large religious traditions, Hinduism and Buddhism for example, don't have a great history of once-a-week corporate meeting.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Just join the Unitarians.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
My sympathies, Avila. It's hard enough when you're having doubts about something you've simply been involved in for a long time, let alone when you're one of the key people in making it all happen!
Does your church context permit you to try some radically different things for your Sunday meeting? Such as:
- Instead of you giving a sermon, invite some of your congregation to talk about a ministry / project they're involved in, or to tell their 'faith story' of how they came to be a Christian and what that means for them.
- Use a video series for a few weeks, e.g. something on spiritual disciplines or what happens at church services in traditions very different to your own.
- Don't have a Sunday meeting for a few weeks! Instead, have prayer meetings round people's homes at various points during the week (so hopefully there's a meeting each person can get to) and urge people to use the freed up Sunday time to get involved in their community or hang out with someone who'd really appreciate the company.
Sorry if these ideas are all wildly unrealistic... Hope you find a way through things.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Depression is a bitch. With twenty blog posts adorned with the Depression label stretching over the last twelve months, I'm guessing that looking to refresh Sunday divine worship is probably to look in the wrong box for the wrong answer to the wrong question. God bless. I hope you are able to wrestle that big dog to the ground.
[ 17. October 2012, 03:13: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
It doesn't seem fair to your congregation for you to go tinkering with the service because you have problems with it. It's their service, too, and for their benefit as much as yours. To be blunt, your restlessness, or boredom, or angst of whatever stripe isn't a good enough reason for changing it.
There are days when I think to myself "Oh God, I can't possibly bear to say Mass today"--but I go ahead and do it anyway, because it's my job, and because it's my bounden duty and service, and because it's not about me. If you can't continue and push through your difficulty, then you owe it to yourself and your congregation to have a word with whoever you answer to (your bishop, elders, presbytery, whatever) and get some help, whether that means counseling, an assisting minister to take some of the pressure off you, a sabbatical, or all of the above.
Also, what TSA said.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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angelicum
Shipmate
# 13515
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
Do you trust a chef that doesn't eat their own food?
It has been a long standing niggle but now I am outting myself - I dish up week by week sunday services that, were I a free agent, would not choose to attend, except perhaps a sense of duty or loyalty.
Except that the liturgy isn't yours like a chefs. It's not even the community's. The liturgy transcends time and space and belongs to the whole Church - those here now, those who have gone before, and those who are to come after us.
Posts: 364 | From: Full in the panting heart | Registered: Mar 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
Do you trust a chef that doesn't eat their own food?
It has been a long standing niggle but now I am outting myself - I dish up week by week sunday services that, were I a free agent, would not choose to attend, except perhaps a sense of duty or loyalty.
It is not that I wish we had a different range of music, or a different liturgical tradition, those are only variations on a theme. I am uncomfortable with the expectations of worship that involve singing or saying words put into our mouths, sitting and standing in formation and listening to one person spouting off their view of what it is all about. Even the apparently radical and fresh still tend to fall into this basic formula.
I look out and am not surprised that so many people think church has nothing to say to their lives.
So I live in the tension of week by week doing what is required of me, and which is meaningful to the few, yet trying to imagine from within the box, from having always been in the box, what life and worship truely outside the box looks like.
Can we ever rethink worship outside the box? Should we? And if not then how would you deal with the tensions...
Ignore the naysayers on here - I'm with you. There's an assumption that your congregation want and are best served by what you're serving up. Perhaps they're having the same issues with it as you are.
Don't stop what you're doing, but talk to people about your desire to do something more inspiring and different. My experience is that there are lots of people out there with interest in spirituality and the Christian faith but who are utterly turned off by church in exactly the way you describe. Talk to them as well.
And if you're anywhere near me, give me a shout because I'd love to see what you end up with.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Avila
If you have the time, perhaps you could start reading up on critiques of the traditional church service, and on ways in which other ministers and congregations in traditional denominations have tried to develop this into something different, and more challenging. There's an increasing number of books on the subject, and also reflections in websites and blogs.
You'll need to communicate with the congregation, because they'll find it very difficult, if not impossible to deal with change. But it might actually be harder for you, because seriously moving away from the monologue and passive listener format means that you'll have less control over what happens. If people no longer see you as the last word on spiritual knowledge and wisdom then your view of your own role will have to change. Many ministers would find that threatening. (Of course, you'll say that you don't see yourself that way; but many of your congregation, unless they're actively encouraged to look for nurturing elsewhere, possibly see you as their principal or their only source of theological insight and reflection.)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Responsibility clash:
Most clerics I suspect go into the ministry because their preferred mode is to be in control and organising. They cope with things being wrong with at least it is their disaster not somebody else's.
Then there are those who stick in the congregation. Their coping mechanism is almost the exact opposite. That is they cope with a disaster because it is not their disaster.
To actually change anything makes both sides feel uncomfortable. It is not necessarily that they dislike the change, but they dislike loss of control/increased responsibility.
Congregations and Ministers in many mainline churches have become co-dependents with each supplying the drug the other needs rather than to actually tackle the problems.
Jengie
[ 17. October 2012, 20:01: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
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Posted
I feel your pain, Avila. I also go through periods of not wanting to go to church. In my case I have had to quell what was coming a mutiny over style of worship and have had to pull back to the hymn sandwich. Needless to say I am beyond bored and many times in depression. I, too, would not choose to darken the door of this place were it not my appointment.
As David "strengthened himself in the Lord his God" (1 Samuel 30:6) I find ways and opportunities to get away and recharge. Conferences, days away, slipping off to another church or the nearby monastery for mass and vespers, taking time to read or to do nothing.
A long-planned holiday is two weeks away (and couldn't be any more timely), and I shall go to a secluded house on a lake, visit with a friend, build a fire in the fireplace, and enjoy some of the days alone, and some with my cherished family. On Sunday I will worship with high church liturgy I am prevented from enjoying week-to-week. Bible and good books will be nearby, along with good coffee for the mornings and port wine and amber ale for the evenings. And there will be time for conversation with my wonderful daughters and son, who love deep and thoughtful exchanges.
My prayers are with you. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
In passing:
It's good to see posters supporting one another. BUT, please remember to be careful when sharing or discussing personal information on the Ship. In particular, remember that this isn't really a suitable place for finding advice on medical issues, so pelase be careful!
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Avila. I hear you.
BUT I am concerned that you feel you have to dish up what, as a free agent, you would stay away from. You have control ( or should have) of the hymns you sing, the content of the sermon you preach and the structure of the service. You should be able to live with that content.
I am in the same Trade Union as you and have done 51 years at it. Like you I wish the structures I have to live within were different in many ways. But there is movement and change albeit slow. Meanwhile it is enough for me to be true to myself and what I believe and, above all, true to the God who called me. And, thank God, I am not expected to meet the expectations of the congregation if that involves singing crappy nonsense and preaching platitudinous cliches.
Which is why, 12 years after retirement, I look after 3 congregations part-time and rejoice at the opportunity to lead worship every Sunday. What keeps me going is the old saying that we are not required to be 'successful' but to be faithful.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Avila, I too have found myself in a similar position to you. It was also confusing and dispiriting for me to repeatedly receive "good feedback" from my congregation about Sunday worship, when I myself felt drained and un-nourished by it. I would absolutely have agreed that if I hadn't been being paid to go to church, I wouldn't have.
But perhaps that's why we find ourselves in the position we're in. The old quip that "God ordained you because he couldn't trust you to be a layperson" is more than half serious, and probably almost wholly true. If making it part of your contract is what it took to keep you in a place where your salvation might be worked out, then perhaps the situation has a (not necessarily pleasant) whiff of providence about it.
In the end, I gave up expecting to find nourishment in Sunday worship, and for myself I went elsewhere - little weekday eucharists, less formal worship, more contemplative spirituality. That's what worked for me. And it kept my batteries charged to get through the Sunday stuff that others found worked for them.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
Surely it’s not an either/or but a both/and. We are all individuals and think and feel and worship in different ways. Yes, the formal liturgy might not do it for you but it is very important to some people, and if you were to do anything too radical you would loose those people who don’t know how to or need to worship in other ways .
For others like you it does nothing for at all, but yes you still need your feeding, have you thought about starting something else and different at an alternative time that does match your needs?
This might be an opportunity for you to start something that may help more people than you..
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Could it be that the Holy Spirit is prompting you into new areas of ministry, or to allow lay people to be more involved in the delivery of the liturgy, including the sermons?
Prayers for guidance are top priority imv.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Avila, I too have found myself in a similar position to you. It was also confusing and dispiriting for me to repeatedly receive "good feedback" from my congregation about Sunday worship, when I myself felt drained and un-nourished by it. I would absolutely have agreed that if I hadn't been being paid to go to church, I wouldn't have.
Hmmm. This suggests to me that the way we come together as church isn't as healthy as it should be. Everyone should benefit. (And I suspect that those laypeople who are unhappy with what is routinely offered rarely discuss it openly with their minister anyway - they either put up with it out of duty, or they just leave the church.)
quote:
In the end, I gave up expecting to find nourishment in Sunday worship, and for myself I went elsewhere - little weekday eucharists, less formal worship, more contemplative spirituality. That's what worked for me. And it kept my batteries charged to get through the Sunday stuff that others found worked for them.
This has wide implications. If ministers can't benefit spiritually from what they do on Sunday, they how can they honestly expect lay people to give themselves wholeheartedly to the life of the church? (I've frequently heard the clergy complain that they can't get the laity to 'do more' for the church.) How can evangelism flourish in this situation?
I think it's the format and structure that's mostly at fault. But the clergy and laity collude to keep things the way they are.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Could it be that the Holy Spirit is prompting you into new areas of ministry
Aye.
Chaplaincy of some sort?
More diaconal work?
And you say in your blog:
quote:
I don't want to preach, I want to debate, to explore together.
Do it! Sit at around table. Don't preach. Start a discussion.
[ 18. October 2012, 14:15: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Circuit Rider:
On Sunday I will worship with high church liturgy I am prevented from enjoying week-to-week.
Join the Episcopalians...
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Avila
Have a go at attending a Friends' Meeting House. Some I've spoken to have found this helpful when traditional, structured services have left them cold or numb.
But be warned, there are FMHs with just as much back-biting and unpleasantness as any church - just a case of suck-it-and-see.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Avila wants debate and discussion not silence.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Perhaps he should call an ecumenical council!
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by Circuit Rider:
On Sunday I will worship with high church liturgy I am prevented from enjoying week-to-week.
Join the Episcopalians...
Good idea. How does one go about transferring credentials from the UMC?
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I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Avila wants debate and discussion not silence.
Where do you see that? It's true that other services that look completely different from Friends' Meetings could meet the criteria laid out in the OP, but a Friends' Meeting for Worship seems to meet all or almost all of them as well. The exception is possibly "no sitting or standing in formation," depending on what is meant by this.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
According to Evensong, Avila says that in his/her blog.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Hosting
Many of the responses thus far, to an OP seeking a discussion about the relationship between what "meets the needs" of the leader of worship and of the congregation, have been less than helpful.
Please, drop the snark and the personal observations about the OPer him/herself. They are off-topic and inappropriate.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
I have the utmost respect for Circuit Rider whom I have met.
He shared a service with me which I knew would not be to his liturgical desires!!
I would however counsel caution in the light of his latest post.
The grass is not necessarily greener on the other side.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I have the utmost respect for Circuit Rider whom I have met.
He shared a service with me which I knew would not be to his liturgical desires!!
I would however counsel caution in the light of his latest post.
The grass is not necessarily greener on the other side.
Thank you shamwari, and I have great respect for you. I deeply appreciated being able to take part in the Sunday service in your church and still remember it as a high point in my ministry, now nearly a year ago.
Beeswax Altar and I have had exchanges like this before. I take it all in good fun. The fact is I am in no position to "swim the Thames" at this point in life and career. Actually I don't think they would have me because education and credentials don't match. And I am old and fat and too close to retirement to make that transition.
So here I am, making the most of it. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
According to Evensong, Avila says that in his/her blog.
Oh, now I see. I had been scanning the thread for posts by Avila to find where it had been said.
A church near me had a mid-week service structured around discussing the Bible and sharing a light potluck meal, with an informal Eucharist in between. The (small) group met in the parish hall, sitting in a circle. They read a passage from whatever book of the Bible they were currently reading through, typically a chapter or half-chapter. They rotated readers around the circle, each person reading a paragraph. Then they had a discussion. That lasted about half an hour or forty minutes, or maybe up to an hour. Then there was a standard Eucharist service from the BCP Rite II, except I think they used Eucharistic Prayer 3. Then they had a light potluck supper of bread and soup.
[ 18. October 2012, 20:15: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Lots of TEC churches do something like that as a midweek service. Sunday morning is different. If I'm hearing Avila correctly, Avila struggles with the concept of Sunday worship as we know it. By "we", I'm including everybody from nondenominational megachurches to traditional Roman Catholic parishes. In my experience, the only people doing what Avila wants to do on Sunday morning are the Unitarian-Universalists and not all of them.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
I am not quite sure what Avila wants to do on a Sunday morning.
She hasn't said/ Just hinted at.
My advice would be to get on with Sunday morning as it is. Preach with integrity. Structure the service in accordance with Methodist Worship Book guidelines ( which are in accord with ecumeincal decisions) and do any radical changes mid-week.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Sounds like Avila is going through something of a Dark Night of the Soul. I suspect many clerics do but ignore it. It's not popular because it needs working on: look at St John of the Cross et sim.
I would counsel her to relax, be less harsh on herself for feeling the way she is, and, as much as possible try to follow where that still small voice may be leading her. One of the great problems with clerics and sincere religious people is that they often intellectually subscribe to the idea that God might actually guide them but ignore the voice themselves. Sometimes the guidance is subtle, through one's feelings and intuition, which are as much God-given as our intellects, which can be deceiving. Sometimes the mind is a bit of a Job's Comforter.
Strangely, I feel that, through her pain, Avila may be being guided. Pain is a sign something is wrong. From all her posts I have found Avila to be extremely honest about where she is coming from. Like everyone else on these threads I think Avila has it within herself to find what God is really calling her to.
May God bless and keep you, Avila. Trust yourself and trust God. It may seem to take ages but, deo voluntas, you'll come through.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Circuit Rider:
...I am old and fat and too close to retirement to make that transition...
And, I'm guessing you ain't pretty, neither. That cinches it for you here, in the Diocese of the Bendy Poles. Pretty young man, though? Well, you're in.
But, back to the opening post, by way of the hostly admonition.
quote:
Avila says:
It is not that I wish we had a different range of music, or a different liturgical tradition, those are only variations on a theme. I am uncomfortable with the expectations of worship that involve singing or saying words put into our mouths, sitting and standing in formation and listening to one person spouting off their view of what it is all about.
But, it sounds as though you do wish for a different liturgical tradition. The use of set liturgical texts goes back to the beginning, and beyond. A variety of postures does, too. Then there is the Lukan Jesus in the synagogue preaching from Isaiah. All that is in the tradition.
Do you yearn to preside at St. Gregory Nyssa, San Francisco? In point of fact that looks pretty traditional to me, too. Well, except for the umbrellas and the slow, slow, quick-quick from the table of the Word to the table of the Sacrament.
[ 19. October 2012, 00:35: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
The Silent Acolyte
Did you actually read what Avila said, I see the phrase
quote:
saying words put into our mouths
There. That is set liturgy is there amongst the things she is uncomfortable with. Hymn singing of course goes back even further right to the gospels.
If I thought it might work I would suggest she tried the old Churches of Christ approach to leading worship, with her working during the week with a team to prepare the worship for a Sunday. Warning this is more work not less.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
After some discussion backstage, we've come to the conclusion that this thread might be better suited to All Saints as Avila seems to be looking for advice about personal issues rather than a discussion of any particular of worship.
Best wishes to its future development, and good luck Avila.
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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daisydaisy
Shipmate
# 12167
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Posted
Avila, I do feel your pain, although as someone in the congregation. I have long felt that the services we tend to offer are remote from where your regular person-in-the-street is: we say strange words (half the time I couldn't tell you what a hymn is actually saying), at times that aren't good, in a format that leaves newcomers to church high & dry, in cold (here anyway) buildings.
The light at the end of the tunnel for me has been the emergence of
Posts: 3184 | From: southern uk | Registered: Dec 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daisydaisy:
Avila, I do feel your pain, although as someone in the congregation. I have long felt that the services we tend to offer are remote from where your regular person-in-the-street is: we say strange words (half the time I couldn't tell you what a hymn is actually saying), at times that aren't good, in a format that leaves newcomers to church high & dry, in cold (here anyway) buildings.
The light at the end of the tunnel for me has been the emergence of
Don't leave it there!
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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daisydaisy
Shipmate
# 12167
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Posted
(sorry - I hit the reply rather than the URL button)
.....
The light at the end of the tunnel for me has been the emergence of Fresh Expressions and Messy Church, which my church is beginning to adopt alongside the regular services - last week saw our very first event along the lines of Messy Church, in a building that the non-church-going community is familiar with and at a time that families (and others) find more do-able than Sunday mornings or evenings.
It has not been a popular move with many, but change can be scary and threatening. But for many more this is an answer to prayer, and we are building up a team of people who pray for this as well as others who are hands-on.
It's too early to say how it is going, but our first event was attended mostly by people who haven't been to one of our regular Sunday services for a looong, looong time, and is an opportunity for some gifted people to participate in the life of the church, as well as somewhere that I can "do" church in a way that connects for me.
Posts: 3184 | From: southern uk | Registered: Dec 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Yes; I'm loosely connected with http://www.theorderoftheblacksheep.com/ - I'd describe them as open liberalish evangelical, but that may be no bad counter to my tendencies towards Spong, Borg and Crossan (sounds like a 70s prog rock outfit, doesn't it?)
I cannot help but observe that in my village of some 2500 souls, only about 30 of them are sufficiently taken by what the parish church has to offer to actually come on a Sunday morning. A few go to the next village which has a weekly Sunday School (we can only manage one a month and that's looking shaky since we chucked in the towel after a six year stint). But most see absolutely nothing worth attending for. Mrs L-B has observed that several of her friends have a Christian background and even faith of some kind, but she could not, hand on heart, recommend our church to any of them.
There is a fine line to be walked between resisting change to the extent of becoming an irrelevance in this age, and so wedding oneself to the present that one becomes an irrelevance in the next.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
...and the tensions are not only those of the leader, the clergy. They are also very present for office holders or 'old faithfuls'.
Finding a place of open communication (not bitching, just real communication) can help.
But tbh (and i don't really know why yet) the very best can be surprisingly Not clergy/ office holders / old faithfuls, nor yet those trained in the dark arts of directing our spiritual living~ but people who don't give a peanuts about churchlife, don't darken a chapel or church's door, argue back's white concerning the suitability of organised religion but care about their friend. And care enough to go that extra mile, really cheer on, yet shout nonsense when we need to hear it!
With friends like that we are free to imagine the unimaginable, hope for the unknown, dream for something better and live with ours face turned upwards in anticipation.
Until then being honest is good and i for one really appreciate you starting this thread.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Well, my answer was to get the hell out of the church. I am asking these same questions, and trying to write some answers. At core, my answer was that a relationship/engagement/experience with or of God is more important than "doing church".
I engage with God in a whole lot of ways, few of which have actually been involving church for many years. Church is, in many ways, irrelevant, and people need to find out how to be spiritual without church - not just the leaders, but the congregation.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
It may be time to take a holiday and a rest from being the pastor/cleric.
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Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
It is not that I wish we had a different range of music, or a different liturgical tradition, those are only variations on a theme. I am uncomfortable with the expectations of worship that involve singing or saying words put into our mouths, sitting and standing in formation and listening to one person spouting off their view of what it is all about. Even the apparently radical and fresh still tend to fall into this basic formula.
That expresses exactly how I felt some years ago as a member of the congregation of my local Catholic church. Who was all this for? Did God really want a formulaic service served up daily, with readings and all the rest of it prescribed by rote? I stuck it for as long as I could then walked out after one particularly formal service. Liturgy can be comforting and enhancing, but it wasn't at that point in my life.
It occurred to me that a church service isn't really for God, it's for us. It's our framework to reach him and sometimes the shape of that scaffolding can seem rigid and infuriating. And you may feel you've been trapped within it. If so - it's time to take a break.
I agree with Sir P's post. I think you're entering a stage where your spiritual needs and expectations are changing, and the form that gave you strength and sustenance no longer does so. This is natural - you shouldn't blame yourself for this, though that's easy to say.
A break will help short-term. But I'm afraid you probably are going to struggle with this for a while. The only thing I can say is that the congregation are there because they want to be there. They're quite capable of voting with their feet if they don't like it, and some of them will undoubtedly be getting something out of the formula for services that you aren't currently happy with.
I'm not a member of the clergy and I don't know much about how things work from that angle. But if you want a more spontaneous, free-form kind of worship, why not suggest forming a group to meet up and try it out - as well as running the usual services - and see how it goes?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
Thanks all!!
Sorry to have been away - tied up with a pastoral situation that took all my time.
A few refs back to early posts having read through them all...
Hello I am a she! My blog mentions depression a lot because its theme is of living with the wobbles.
I was trying to be non tradition specific in the opener, because whether it is the words of hymnwriter, or of the liturgy committee they are still set for you as the one in the pew.
Leading worship I get to choose which hymns, but the congregation don't. In extempore prayer I am choosing the words - but the congregation don't choose their own.
It is not for me to shape the service around what suits me, although I have done innovative things at times, special services give a freedom for that.
I think there is a lot in Jengie's post about the relationship or roles in congregations. Invite people to voice their own thoughts during the prayers and the stress shows on their faces (the same folk being happy to speak out at other times so not shyness).
I think it is frustration at 'going through the motions' when I can see there is so much more depth we can go to. And in terms of relating to folk who wouldn't darken our doors - I get why, and am frustrated that others don't.
Actually the pastoral crisis I am involved with has done wonders for my own mood - this is real stuff, real lives, messy but certainly not 'going through the motions'.
However the tensions about sundays, and the if not this then what will make sense to contemporary cultures question needs to address the format. Even our radical ideas drift back to the shape of the box.
Maybe history shows that the shape is essentially boxed shaped.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
I dish up week by week Sunday services that, were I a free agent, would not choose to attend, except perhaps a sense of duty or loyalty.
And I am regularly surprised how many people I know attend Sunday morning only because they think it's a duty.
Book after book (I have a shelf full) speaks of people leaving church to find more of God.
I hadn't thought to wonder before, what happens when a clergy person hits Fowler's "gotta leave church" stage? (No, Fowler is not perfect, but he's got some astute observations including that lots of believers reach a point or go through a phase where church distances them from God.)
Alan Jamieson, A Churchless Faith (book recommended to me on a Ship thread a couple years ago) has a chapter on "leaver-sensitive churches." He suggests churches:
provide places for people to explore, question, and doubt. A safe space where doubts can be voiced, allowed, explored, no answers imposed, no Bible verse slamming the door shut on the conversation.
provide resources for people in the dark places. help them know feeling like it's all irrelevant does not mean God has rejected you or that you have rejected God; the spiritually blind dark times are normal.
provide models of other theological understandings. God is bigger than any one denomination's perspective.
He has a few other suggestions. Might be worth picking up the book.
As for me, form a small group to openly admit and explore the questions, doubts, boredoms, etc, an accepting place, and I'll come!
My own (limited) understanding is that when nothing "works" anymore, when church leaves me cold and Bible is boring and God is silent and life is empty, it's because I have hit a theological dead end. It's like when walking a maze, you are happily progressing, and suddenly you can't go any further, a wall blocks you.
The way to progress is to back up, give up some of what you learned (by teaching or experience) to believe about God or God's intentions, find the turn you missed, and happily begin enjoying God again, a slightly different direction. Until the next wall clues you that your theology is, once again, imperfect, too limited to take you any farther, some aspect of understanding is missing or overblown, it's time to back up, give up some cherished beliefs, explore with God some slightly different direction that will advance you farther.
The dark times are clues to use, not just puzzles to suffer through.
But gosh it would help to be able to TALK about it in real life instead of having to be silent lest you get assaulted with "duty" or scolded for failing to "trust" and "rejoice."
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Even if things end up box shaped, Avila, you can leave the box open. That way something worthwhile could come in. "Closed box" religion, or life, is not good.
Bless you and godspeed.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
It is not faith I am losing faith in - just the packaging.
Thank you all for your support and lots of thoughts for me to chew on on the next few weeks.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
There was a cleric who used to, possibly still does, attend Brigflatts Friends [Quaker] Meeting, I think for similar reasons.
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Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
There are two issues in Avila's post. One is where do I get fed as a cleric if not at the Sunday service and secondly about the imposed script for worship on a Sunday onto the congregation. I am going to tackle the second but I warn people this is a long rambling post.
To me this sounds like something I am familliar with, it is typically found amongst low liberal non-conformists. The concern is that the worship should be "of the people" and that with the increased feeling that for something to be genuine it should be by the person themselves. This is particularly true of present culture.
We are all here very ready to call fakery an Evangelical that encourages you to "Smile for Jesus" or even the yellow badges with smiley faces that say "Smile Jesus loves you" on them but words we aren't so fussy about. If our words are to be genuine should they not be those that come from us, and is not the us primarily that of the congregation. Is it right for the words to be chosen by the cleric or by a bishop or by a council rather than the actual worshippers? What right has a cleric, bishop or council to frame what people can say to God?
I say this as someone whose personal prayer tends to follow set liturgy, that for me acts as the third voice in the conversation, the voice of the Church in which I am in dialogue with as much as I am with God. However for public worship the third voice is there, in my fellow worshippers, I do not need books or such to bring it to mind.
I also say this a someone who has refused to become a preacher because of struggles similar to these, although when I do lead worship I tend to be liturgical in approach, for worship is still a performance and I do orderly better than random.
It is a voice I need to hear, and yet I note amongst non-conformist congregations the historic tendency is to go the other way, for the congregation to take less participation. The prayers of the people used to be open prayer time. Sermons could even been almost competitions for who preached the most relevant.
Now I freely admit my personality likes a neat tidy orderly service. I like to know what is coming next and what to expect. Community worship isn't like that. It is messy, often noisy, runs over time and quite often is rescheduled half way through the service due to major deviations from script. Worship that arises from the congregation is more akin to community theatre than the Chinese Opera.
Another personal major gripe with community worship is that people think that lay involvement means less clerical involvement. They therefore try to do it on the cheap. My experience says if you want to do it well it is actually harder work for the clerics (not less work). Therefore it is labour intensive. What cleric wants less control and more work, yet that is the price of congregation worshipping in this style.
As I read this I also recall that what I am saying is once again the old alt.worship manifesto. Worship by ourselves for ourselves and what if it attracts no-one else. The echo from The Prodigal Project. It was a relief to read it at the time but it is old now. Suceeded by post evangelicalism,emerging church, liquid church and fresh expression. I am surprised you can find the webpage still up on Andrew's Website.
There are others such as Janet Lees book from Wildgoose Publications and I suspect some of Wholly Worship works at that level too (I am reluctantly citing it as a)it has long been out of print although I think Wholly Worship Too is in print still b)there is a Methodist equivalent and it is not the Methodist Service Book but I can not recall its name). There is quite a bit on including congregations in doing theology as well but little on getting them involved in preparing worship. I have not sighted resource books because they tend to concentrate on matters of style rather than process.
What I can say is I know of multiple ministers who for theological reasons would see their preferred style as this but who week in week out fall back into either the tried and tested formula of service of the word, or use an equally clerical dependent form of all-age worship. Having introverts that lead makes this easier to do.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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