Posted                    

1. personal accounts
2. official literature

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But I'm afraid your arguments (AFZ) and Curiosities arguments about not demonising the issue and making it more "normal" fail miserably in actually tackling the issue.

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Evensong, the fount of all knowledge...

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Posted                    

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Originally posted by Zach82:

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Evensong, the fount of all knowledge...

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This fits the tune Cwm Rhondda tolerably well.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Her answer to alienfromzog and me, both arguing from personal professional experience…

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Originally posted by Zach82:

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Evensong, the fount of all knowledge...

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This fits the tune Cwm Rhondda tolerably well.

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An email entitled A response from your supposed friend:
She’s is treading a fucking fine line, my comments in italics, use if u wish. [I've edited only to sort out the quotes and make things clear - AFZ]

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Originally posted by Evensong:

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Originally posted by alienfromzog's supposed friend:
What goes on within the family is ‘normal’, normalising and minimizing is the only way to survive, especially as others may be aware and also ignore it.

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Herein lies the problem

It is not normal. And is it really surviving?

If others are aware of it and ignore it then it is only because it has not been sufficiently drummed into them that it IS NOT NORMAL. It is evil. It is wrong. No child should be subject to that. Ever. Fullstop.

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Whilst I fully agree with you that abuse isn’t ‘normal’ and is evil and wrong and no child should be subjected to it, i was trying to give an opinion of how it felt at the time. I know you disagree, but when you have nothing else to compare it to, it is your reality and it is ‘normal’. As a highly intelligent child my brain developed many coping mechanisms including dissociation, that meant I was able to almost totally ignore it, yes I hated it, but it was my ‘normality’ and I didn’t know things could be any other way. As to is it surviving, well yes, i’m still alive, ok psychologically damaged but alive. If I hadn’t had the ability to ‘normalise’ and ‘minimize’ I would probably be dead. As for others being aware and ignoring it, well I can’t really speak for that person, however her reaction was more out of jealousy and shame, after all I had seduced her husband away from her.

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Originally posted by Evensong:

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Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Plus add on the fact that they think it is their fault, feel they would also be demonised.

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Demonised by whom?

Certainly not demonised by society if society accepted sexual abuse of minors was evil and wrong.

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Well in my case by my family, especially my mother, brother and nan. I was the one in the wrong. Yes my father went to prison but I was the one cast out of the family. The point I was also trying to make was that I blamed myself (which is very common) and therefore perceived I would be in trouble, I was the one who had done something wrong. After disclosure in those days it was still treated like a dirty secret, yes my close friends knew, but other than to blame me for the situation and the consequences afterwards, it has never been mentioned by my family.

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Originally posted by Evensong:

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Originally posted by alienfromzog:
For a child to be willing to disclose, they either need to be at breaking point, fully accept it isn’t normal and accept that the ‘backlash’ of telling won’t necessarily make life any easier.

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Mmmnnn.....that doesn't sound like the viewpoint of a child. That sounds like an older person speaking.

As to accepting "it is not normal": however painful that might be at the time, it may be the less painful option in the long run.

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Family breakup or repeated sexual abuse? Which is worse?

Only a victim can answer that. And likely only in hindsight.

Alienfromzog never claimed I was a child, he said I was a victim of abuse, I am choosing to speak through him as a way of distancing myself because if I had responded in person and you had attacked me like this I would have found it extremely damaging. I would still say 20 years on that disclosing was the worst thing I could have done. I didn’t deliberately disclose, I wrote a letter to a friend telling her why I was upset. Bearing in mind I was 16 at the time, I was totally shocked by the reaction to what I put, as I said before, to me it was ‘normal’. I’m not saying the abuse continuing would have been easy, however I would still argue that I wish I hadn’t disclosed, as it went from a situation that just affected me, to an even more damaging situation affecting my brother and wider family, where I had to leave the family home and my father return there when he left prison.

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Originally posted by Evensong:
But I'm afraid your arguments (AFZ) and Curiosities arguments about not demonising the issue and making it more "normal" fail miserably in actually tackling the issue.

I still don't see how normalising "the other" helps.

Which is why I keep thinking this particular avenue has to come from child psychs and victims remembering back to when they were in that situation.

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What would have helped them?

Currently sexual abuse is something that comes up in the news as a big shocking story, portraying abusers as monsters. What would have helped me. By choice even now I would never have chosen to disclose the abuse, it was never my intention. Now I was in a slightly strange situation of having no television and generally being isolated at school. The abuse by my Father wasn’t the first time i’d been abused. I was also abused by a slightly older neighbour from 7-9 years old, again that was ‘normal’ I didn’t know any different. So the two things that could possibly have helped me would have been open dialogue about sexual abuse, not demonising people, but more education about sexual issues far younger. I knew it was ‘wrong’ but I wanted friends/love and would allow anything to get attention. When I was older my school and the local health authority were partly at fault for not acting on their concerns and allowing my Father to manipulate the situation. By demonising and making it shocking children are less likely to disclose, teachers/other adults need to be more vigilant to signs and create an ethos in which these sort of things can be openly discussed.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by alienfromzog:
P.S. It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than...

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It is not the same. I only survived physical abuse. The sort of physical abuse that left one of my siblings scarred.

The look of horror and disbelief in the eyes of the adults I tried to tell remains with me. Not from saying anything outright, just the tentative dropping of hints to see if that adult was safe to tell. An expression that was enough to withdraw and stop speaking out, again.

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Posted                    

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Originally posted by Justinian:

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Originally posted by Zach82:

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Evensong, the fount of all knowledge...

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This fits the tune Cwm Rhondda tolerably well.

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Evensong, the found of all knowledge
Postmodernist and a Christian
We have facts but thou hast blather
And thou wilt not try to listen
Postmodernist, Postmodernist
Blather til we just give up
Blather til we just give up

When you start freely writing
Then the ignorance shall flow
Let the wisdom of your shipmates
Teach you where you should go
Pointless idiot, Pointless idiot
You add nothing to this site
You add nothing to this site

When I read a post by yourself
Let my axious fears subside
It's just ignorance and harmless
Something I should just let slide
In this hell call, In this hell call
There is alway room for thee
There is alway room for thee

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I did think it interesting that she was on her second hell call before the first had even dropped to the bottom of the page. The common denominator appears to be that she gets really pissed off if people don't take her opinions as seriously as she thinks they should take them.

I have noticed that people with doctorates are particularly afflicted by this, hence my question up thread.

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Originally posted by Siegfried:
As I may have mentioned before, I can never read that name without recalling an amusing typo back in the old days of the MW board - Evensnog.

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I thought that was just PeteC's Hell epithet for her for a while.

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:


Evensong got called for writing off the experiences of children who have been abused even though, by her own admission she has never been abused herself or worked with abused children or adults abused as children. Separate issues.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by PeteC:
Latchkey Kid opined:

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I thought that was just PeteC's Hell epithet for her for a while.

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Actually I wouldn't do that - it would have been disrespectul to another shipmate - one of your kind - who was active back in the day, and who used Evensnog as her board name.

I do, often, use Eversmug for the person in question.

ETA : This is Evensnog!

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Originally posted by Evensong:
The hell call seems to morph as you go along. Will it be different tomorrow?

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Posted                    

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Originally posted by Evensong:

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:


Evensong got called for writing off the experiences of children who have been abused even though, by her own admission she has never been abused herself or worked with abused children or adults abused as children. Separate issues.

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Bullshit.
The hell call seems to morph as you go along. Will it be different tomorrow?

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Originally posted by Evensong:
I said children are better off these days because society has finally said IT IS WRONG than they were in the past when kiddie fiddling was often known about and ignored. Kids in the past would be ignored or perhaps even told it was "their fault". Those in positions of authority that were told would sweep it under the carpet.

Not so anymore. Thank God.

You seem to want to have your cake and it it too. You want society to be outraged about pedophilia, but not react with horror when they are told by a child.

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Originally posted by alienfromzog:
And, whilst the research is sketchy in this area, what protects children is education about how to respond to dangerous situations and means for them to disclose.

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Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Screaming about evil paedophiles who should be lynched is great but as my friend (Marvin-the-paranoid-android) was trying to tell you that had no connection at all with the situation she was in.

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Originally posted by alienfromzog:


I can think of two adults who first disclosed to me the abuse that happened to them as young teenagers. I can tell you of others who when they first disclosed the reaction of shock and horror was so damaging because they felt completely rejected. If you look at the research, feelings of 'being dirty' or 'to blame' or just 'different' are typical articulation of how rejected victims feel when the person they disclose to reacts in this way. (They often feel this way anyway but it is enhanced by the reaction) It is vital if you care about the victim of abuse to not react in this way. To listen and however shocked, not show shock. To absorb and deal with your feelings later.

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Posted                    

1. The child is not going to recognise what is happening to them as the same thing they hear about - which adds even more disconnection to what they are experiencing;
2. Children are less safe because potential offenders and those around them keep things even more hidden so they don't get lynched

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Originally posted by Evensong:
You're confusing mass hysteria with individual response here. Or are you saying individuals respond with mass hysteria when children try to disclose?

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You want society to be outraged about pedophilia, but not react with horror when they are told by a child.

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
IMO one of the worst things to have happened from media coverage is the armchair psychologists that throw around the idea that the abused become abusers. This makes it incredibly difficult for the abused to speak out at all - even among trusted friends and family for fear of being ostracised and labelled an abuser or potential abuser. That thought is truly horrifying to those who have been abused and makes daily life coping with what has already happened a million times harder than it already is.

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Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't know what you're hoping for here. If she spoke up and it was considered "normal" as she considered it "normal" WTF would there be to speak up about??

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From Marvin:
Evensong to try and do explain how your comments may be interpreted by others and explain why I disagree with some of your assertions

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Originally posted by Evensong:

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Evensong got called for writing off the experiences of children who have been abused even though, by her own admission she has never been abused herself or worked with abused children or adults abused as children. Separate issues.

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Bullshit.

The hell call seems to morph as you go along. Will it be different tomorrow?

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So you don’t feel you wrote off the ‘experiences of children who have been abused’?!!
Firstly it took quite a lot of strength on my part to decide to post through AFZ and did result in us debating whether I should really be looking at this thread as it is possibly unhelpful to me. However I felt I have a perspective on this issue that may be helpful, in that I am a survivor of abuse, I have met many other survivors of abuse and I was a teacher working with 10 – 14 year olds. As a teacher I was luckily not on the receiving end of any disclosures, however did work closely with some ‘at risk’ children and children already within the care system. This unfortunately allowed me to observe some less than helpful attitudes amongst pupils and staff.

So why do I perceive you wrote off my experiences?

Firstly you referred to me as AFZ’s 'supposed friend', now yes that could be taken several ways, none of which complimentary. Now due to years of abuse I don’t form friendships easily and don’t trust people (this is common amongst victims of abuse) As a consequence of this I often doubt both myself and those around me as to whether they are really my friend or not. Ok AFZ is my friend and I trust him, but even then i’m not always sure, because why would he be willing to be my friend and travel this road with me, despite the pain and strife I put him through. That particular day I was debating do I really care about him, so that further kicked into that. Now yes you weren’t to know that, however casting doubt on that sort of thing to a victim of abuse will often cause doubt. I also felt guilty that you were attacking AFZ because of my words.

It may have been a clumsy approach on your behalf however your response to my points about it being ‘normal’ to an abused child, felt like you were implying that I must be stupid as I was wrong. Lacking acknowledgement that you understood where I was coming from.

You challenged the fact that a victim may feel demonised? How dare you challenge a statement of fact. I was demonised, still am by the same people. Now ok I wrote it in the third person so that may have confused you, however I wasn’t necessarily aware of doing so as it is a protective strategy I use subconsciously.

You seem to not realise that often before the sexual abuse occurs there is grooming of a victim, there is the threats, lies and blame throughout. When that is all you hear day after day it is what you believe an in some cases continue to deeply believe, even though rationally you know otherwise.

To disclose a child needs to come to have some trust in the person they choose to tell, now yes all adults working with children are taught how to react to disclosure. However many children may exhibit maladaptive behaviours or coping strategies and how these are dealt with is also important. Many abused children become hyper-vigilant and necessity to survival, however that also means they pick up on treatment of others and general reactions to events of others around them. Unfortunately as a teacher I witnessed appalling reactions to self harm (from staff and pupils alike) and as this is often a behaviour exhibited by abuse victims, how much worse must they imagine the reaction to disclosing would be.

I choose not to (unless necessary) tell people about my background, it’s bad enough people finding out I have mental health issues without them additionally finding out the reasons. Yes it is a horrendous thing to happen to a child (I would add if it isn’t you, yes I now accept it has damaged me, but often still argue that, that is my fault) However some people’s reactions to the disclosure that you were abused as a child are unhelpful. A selection of responses I have received, ‘oh that explains it we always knew there was something odd about you’ (A senior manager in a school) is the only quote that sticks in my mind, however usually a combination of pity, shock or voyeuristic responses. The first two usually followed by the topic being totally ignored thereafter and you treated differently.

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Now, of course the Ship is not a place for therapy. And that is why Marvin and I have been debating this by email. I asked to quote her because I thought it pertinent. That's where that post on Purgatory came from.

It baffles me that you can't see the problem, Evensong and it worries me. Marvin is quite safe - got that covered but you are moving into a world where you may well be a point of contact for vulnerable people and we have seen people damaged by the kind of attitudes you are promoting in the name of safeguarding children.

Our culture of demonising is counter productive because:
1) It makes it harder for people to disclose (as discussed)
2) It makes non-offenders who may be a risk run for the hills

And when called on this - when we (Curiosity, myself and others) tried to explain to you why simply demonising was not a good idea, you accused us of not caring, of not seeing how evil abuse is.

It is possible, I have never been more insulted in my life.

To quote Marvin again (her immediate response to your post that induced curiosity to call you to hell):

or (if you prefer the text version): GRRRRRRR

AFZ

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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)

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Originally posted by alienfromzog:

2) Now have a fantastic image of you with a bowler hat and a pitch-fork combination. (Kind of an English demon...)

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Originally posted by claret10:
Having read through the threads, the point you seem to be missing Evensong is that children who are being abused see the public hysteria, the demonising of offenders and in some cases the persecution of offenders.

If they come to a point of realising what is going on in their life is not 'normal'and wish to disclose, it is likely that this sort of hysteria would deter them, As they would not wish to put their abuser through that sort of ordeal.

How is an abused child to know that in disclosing to a professional that they will act in a helpful way, when all they see publicised is mass hysteria!!

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Originally posted by JoannaP:

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Originally posted by Evensong:
You're confusing mass hysteria with individual response here. Or are you saying individuals respond with mass hysteria when children try to disclose?

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Evensong,

As I read it, that was you:

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You want society to be outraged about pedophilia, but not react with horror when they are told by a child.

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I took that as meaning that, when a child tells a trusted adult that s/he has been abused, you think that the adult should react with horror.

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quote:

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Originally posted by alienfromzog:


And when called on this - when we (Curiosity, myself and others) tried to explain to you why simply demonising was not a good idea, you accused us of not caring, of not seeing how evil abuse is.

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Posted                    

quote:

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Originally posted by Evensong:

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Originally posted by JoannaP:

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Originally posted by Evensong:
You're confusing mass hysteria with individual response here. Or are you saying individuals respond with mass hysteria when children try to disclose?

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Evensong,

As I read it, that was you:

quote:

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You want society to be outraged about pedophilia, but not react with horror when they are told by a child.

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I took that as meaning that, when a child tells a trusted adult that s/he has been abused, you think that the adult should react with horror.

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No. And I responded to the this issue above in my post to AFZ. There is a difference between individual, societal, first off and considered/appropriate reactions.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by PeteC:
Latchkey Kid opined:

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I thought that was just PeteC's Hell epithet for her for a while.

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Actually I wouldn't do that - it would have been disrespectul to another shipmate - one of your kind - who was active back in the day, and who used Evensnog as her board name.

ETA : This is Evensnog!

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