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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Church in Wales Strategy for Growth
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Ender's Shadow
Yes, that's what some churches do. But when they do that, they see themselves as separate congregations, don't they? In the circles I've mixed in, that seems to be frowned on. Before my Methodist church closed we considered sharing a building with another church in the area, but our minister seemed to think it was improper for two churches to be meeting separately in the same church at the same time. The Anglicans were (and are) sharing a building with the URC but worshipping separately, and this seemed to be viewed as a cause for regret. At the moment, they're working towards complete union, with the implication that this is the ideal.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Except that tiny congregations have to cope with budgets beyond their capacity, when sharing a building would make much more sense.
If th4e budgets be beyond their capacity, and I do not know if this be the case with these three congregations, then they would need to look at their situations. Amalgamation or building-sharing might be among them but, depending on the geography of the place, might not be.
These particular three, as I pointed out, are within five minutes walk of each other.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
@Angloid. Ah! I missed that bit. Nevertheless, I'm not sure that there's an argument for any action, as long as they are covering their expenses and carrying out their niche ministries. I would presume that they are co-operating with aspects such as a joint website, hospital patient support, supply, service time coordination, etc., which are easily done and helpful to the public.
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Ender's Shadow
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# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Ender's Shadow
Yes, that's what some churches do. But when they do that, they see themselves as separate congregations, don't they? In the circles I've mixed in, that seems to be frowned on. Before my Methodist church closed we considered sharing a building with another church in the area, but our minister seemed to think it was improper for two churches to be meeting separately in the same church at the same time. The Anglicans were (and are) sharing a building with the URC but worshipping separately, and this seemed to be viewed as a cause for regret. At the moment, they're working towards complete union, with the implication that this is the ideal.
Yes, there is a belief hard coded into denominational leaders that there is no justification for separate styles of worship / patterns of belief because 'we are all Christians'. In doing so they reject the evidence of the dynamism of separate traditions, and actually attempt to impose a unity that even Rome doesn't; Rome after all accepts the role of the uniate churches in the same area etc. The problem of course is that such diversity may also become a justification for maintaining traditions that are actually unhelpful; unfortunately it is unusual to see such traditions confronted directly - instead things are left to run their course.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
empart:
As for selling it and becoming nomadic, lovely idea but just one snag – all church buildings in Wales are owned by the Representative Body, not the people who use, run, maintain, and worship in them. If it was sold we wouldn’t get the proceeds.
In the United Church of Canada it isn't that easy either. The church building is held in trust by the Board of Trustees of a congregation. They can't sell it without the Presbytery's permission. In the case of the church without a building, the Trustees keep the capital and can use the interest, but cannot dispose of the capital without permission of Presbytery. If they want to build a new building, they have to ask Presbytery too.
If a United Church congregation disbands, the proceeds of the sale of the church revert to the Presbytery.
Our church property law turns on the concept of "reversionary interest" which means in effect a church has multiple owners. The United Church Act and the Trusts of Model Deed baffles lawyers.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
There is a belief hard coded into denominational leaders that there is no justification for separate styles of worship / patterns of belief because 'we are all Christians'. In doing so they reject the evidence of the dynamism of separate traditions, and actually attempt to impose a unity that even Rome doesn't; Rome after all accepts the role of the uniate churches in the same area etc. The problem of course is that such diversity may also become a justification for maintaining traditions that are actually unhelpful; unfortunately it is unusual to see such traditions confronted directly - instead things are left to run their course.
I understand what you're saying.
As a British Methodist with an interest in church history, I should say that we've closed more churches in recent decades than all other mainstreanm denominations. Also, British Methodism as we know it today is itself the result of a merger - or a re-absorption - of several denominations. So from a certain point of view it would be inaccurate to say that that all Christians suffer overmuch from an inclination to cling on to redundant buildings and denominations that have run their course.
What happens, of course, is that once the money and the manpower run out ecumenicalism and rationalisation are simply inevitable; traditionalism holds sway only so long as there are funds to pay for it. Maybe the point is that churches should be closed/merged before things get to such a serious point. But I suppose knowing when to get out is a fine art, or else a business skill, and few church people have it. Christians often want to believe that 'God will find a way', that their presence in a particular place is their divine destiny. Few of us, if we're honest, would want to close a church that seems to be in a healthy state for the sake of ecumenicalism. It goes against our instincts. Maybe that's the problem. Despite the lipservice paid to doing God's work in a new setting, the fact is that church closures and mergers are experienced as failure by most churchgoers, and noone wants to welcome failure!
I think that perhaps Anglicans have a different perspective on this. In most mergers they participate in, they would be the senior party. Maybe some of them even see it as a case of wandering sheep returning to the fold! The validity of Methodist orders isn't accepted by the CofE, according to Wiki; I don't think this is the case the other way around.
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enpart
Apprentice
# 17272
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Posted
Hi
My apologies but I have to correct an earlier post I made - I was incorrect to say that the Representative Body would get all proceeds from sales of churches in Wales - they do, but apparently there is a mechanism whereby it is possible to get some or all of the proceeds back for use in the parish - its a long and complex process but it does open up some possibilities along the lines of the suggested leasing of buildings via trust income - so not only a lovely idea but one that might just be workable here in Wales.
On the mixed services topic - walking out of church today my eye was caught by the 'This is a Covenanted Church' poster that has been there (largely ignored) for years. We have a good relationship with our local Methodist chapel and often join together in events ,fund-raising activities, concerts etc - but we have never shared services together.....now I'm wondering if sharing a few special services occasionally might help us both out....somehow working together as covenanted churches in a way that helps us both to keep our own buildings running, and our own identities (?)
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Ender's Shadow
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# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by enpart:
On the mixed services topic - walking out of church today my eye was caught by the 'This is a Covenanted Church' poster that has been there (largely ignored) for years. We have a good relationship with our local Methodist chapel and often join together in events ,fund-raising activities, concerts etc - but we have never shared services together.....now I'm wondering if sharing a few special services occasionally might help us both out....somehow working together as covenanted churches in a way that helps us both to keep our own buildings running, and our own identities (?)
There was a fashion for shared services in the 70s and 80s that was totally unproductive in the long term in my experience; either they were bland homogenised and contentless, or they merely reflected the style of the host church, which whilst being education for some (if you've never been to an Orthodox service, your Christian education IS defective) achieved little visible return.
@Seasick: The idea of the CofE moving to something similar to the Methodist circuit system fills me with horror; AFAICS the effect of this is to ensure a levelling down of the expectations of congregations, a wide variety of theologies expressed from the pulpit and a total lack of dynamism, because noone can be certain about what the next service in their church will be like. Would you want to risk taking a non-Christian to a service when you really have no idea what's going to be said from the pulpit? That that test gives the wrong answer demolishes any attraction to 'circuits'...
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
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Garasu
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# 17152
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Posted
Originally posted by Enders Shadow: quote:
@Seasick: The idea of the CofE moving to something similar to the Methodist circuit system fills me with horror; AFAICS the effect of this is to ensure a levelling down of the expectations of congregations, a wide variety of theologies expressed from the pulpit and a total lack of dynamism, because noone can be certain about what the next service in their church will be like. Would you want to risk taking a non-Christian to a service when you really have no idea what's going to be said from the pulpit? That that test gives the wrong answer demolishes any attraction to 'circuits'...
Hey! No horse in the Methodist race, but is there any evidence that they're less effective at attracting converts than you lot?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Zacchaeus
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# 14454
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Posted
Enpart I know that being listed can be very restrictive, but in my travels over the years I have come across small village churches who have used their space very imaginatlvely. Without altering structure, they have managed to find other uses to share their building.
However it is vital that church members are not 'precious' about their builidng they have to learn to relax and let others use it and take the risk. After all the alternative might be to loose the building altogehter.
Is there any way you can you use the historic church angle to get tourists in? I have been in Wales and found churches open to the public by following notices. I was actually in one last week that had signs on the main road saying the church was historic and open daily. It was unmanned but open and they had a things like book stalls and honesty boxes and of course envelopes to gift aid a donation. As it was unmanned I didn't get to ask how much money they made on these things, but it was still open and a worshipping community.....
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Originally posted by Enders Shadow: quote:
@Seasick: The idea of the CofE moving to something similar to the Methodist circuit system fills me with horror; AFAICS the effect of this is to ensure a levelling down of the expectations of congregations, a wide variety of theologies expressed from the pulpit and a total lack of dynamism, because noone can be certain about what the next service in their church will be like. Would you want to risk taking a non-Christian to a service when you really have no idea what's going to be said from the pulpit? That that test gives the wrong answer demolishes any attraction to 'circuits'...
Hey! No horse in the Methodist race, but is there any evidence that they're less effective at attracting converts than you lot?
I'm a Methodist. What I've read is that the Methodists have suffered a steeper decline than the CofE. There are various reasons for this.
I agree that there are problems with the circuit system, and Enders Shadow has listed some of them. However, I don't think that congregations suffer from having 'no idea what's going to be said from the pulpit'. In reality, the Methodist sermon is a very consistent thing; there are very rarely any surprises. The training process works almost too well in that regard! The quality of the preaching may be variable, but not normally the theological emphasis. But's easy to find out who's preaching at your church on any given Sunday; some people will absent themselves if a weak preacher is due. This is discouraged, of course, but it can't be prevented.
A circuit tends to be fairly homogenous when it comes to worship styles and theology since it shares all the same preachers, who don't expect to have to change what they do just to please one rogue congregation. It must be very difficult, I think, to be the one congregation in a circuit that wants to turn charismatic, say, if all the others are fairly MOTR.
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Ender's Shadow
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# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Originally posted by Enders Shadow: quote:
@Seasick: The idea of the CofE moving to something similar to the Methodist circuit system fills me with horror; AFAICS the effect of this is to ensure a levelling down of the expectations of congregations, a wide variety of theologies expressed from the pulpit and a total lack of dynamism, because noone can be certain about what the next service in their church will be like. Would you want to risk taking a non-Christian to a service when you really have no idea what's going to be said from the pulpit? That that test gives the wrong answer demolishes any attraction to 'circuits'...
Hey! No horse in the Methodist race, but is there any evidence that they're less effective at attracting converts than you lot?
Yes. This indicates that the rate of decline of Methodism is FAR higher than that of the CofE.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
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MarsmanTJ
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# 8689
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by enpart:
[snip] We have given nearly Ł10,000 in ministry share during that period.
Um, we (medium-small Evangelical Church) gave nearly Ł100k during our last interregnum as Parish Share.
quote:
We are in a grouped benefice already but if the proposals are implemented we will become one of 20 -25 churches in a ‘Ministry Area’ who will share 3 stipendiary ministers and an assortment of NSMs and Lay readers.
Well if you all give Ł10k a year, that totals Ł200k (if 20 churches), so 4 times the parish share giving of my (CofE) church which has a single minister. Perhaps the diocese is being a bit stingy by only giving three, but there are plenty of churches in my CofE diocese that have larger parish shares and a single minister. (One local, slightly larger church gives Ł70k Parish Share for a single minister)
Tim
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
There is another way to approach this, of course, which can be alluded to with the question - Do we know how far Orthodox Christians in the UK travel each Sunday to be present at the Liturgy? It's often a very, very long way.
All very well you say, but how do they show forth the reality of the Risen Lord in their local community? To tell you the truth, I don't know. But it won't be with needlework displays and flower festivals. Perhaps it will be seen in their obvious commitment to the Christian faith - there is no more powerful mission tool for encouraging discipleship than to glimpse a disciple.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
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enpart
Apprentice
# 17272
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Posted
Tim – wow, there are only five churches in the whole of our Diocese that give over 100k in ministry share, and they are in major towns………maybe the dis-endowment of the CinW is still having an effect ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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enpart
Apprentice
# 17272
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Posted
Zacchaeus – we are taking steps to develop the tourist/historic church angle a bit although we’re not quite at the stage yet where the door can be left open at all times.
Open days have worked well and brought in visitors, some of whom have returned and attended a few services.
A nearby church had a bad experience which has made a lot of people in our church very wary of the open door policy – they had a bunch of teenage girls rampage through the church and broke a lot of things so now their door is locked unless anyone is in the church to keep an eye on things.
Personally I would like to take the chance but some of the senior members are absolutely dead against it at the moment – we may get there eventually.
I’m trying to get permission from the council to put a new bigger sign up on the main road….our old one is very pretty, but doesn’t say much except ‘There’s a church at the end of this lane’…..given the current sense of crisis I think we need a bit more than that
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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tomsk
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# 15370
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Posted
enpart said: 'Tim – wow, there are only five churches in the whole of our Diocese that give over 100k in ministry share, and they are in major towns………maybe the dis-endowment of the CinW is still having an effect '
I think annual the cost of a clergyman totals Ł50K. If a group of churches pay Ł5K annual parish share, it would take ten of them to fund a priest, so spreading 3 over 25 churches sounds about right. That would obviously be a bit thinly spread, so there's a pressing need to develop more lay ministry. Trouble is, I guess raising the parish share and looking after the building is a burden already.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tomsk:
I think annual the cost of a clergyman totals Ł50K. If a group of churches pay Ł5K annual parish share, it would take ten of them to fund a priest, so spreading 3 over 25 churches sounds about right. That would obviously be a bit thinly spread, so there's a pressing need to develop more lay ministry. Trouble is, I guess raising the parish share and looking after the building is a burden already.
Unfortunately, studies show that a priest becomes less effective the more churches s/he has to look after. I think it would require far more than 'developing lay ministry' to turn this into something positive. It would require a whole new theology of church, not just getting lay people to take on a few more jobs.
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enpart
Apprentice
# 17272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by tomsk:
I think annual the cost of a clergyman totals Ł50K. If a group of churches pay Ł5K annual parish share, it would take ten of them to fund a priest, so spreading 3 over 25 churches sounds about right. That would obviously be a bit thinly spread, so there's a pressing need to develop more lay ministry. Trouble is, I guess raising the parish share and looking after the building is a burden already.
Unfortunately, studies show that a priest becomes less effective the more churches s/he has to look after. I think it would require far more than 'developing lay ministry' to turn this into something positive. It would require a whole new theology of church, not just getting lay people to take on a few more jobs.
Those are exactly the main concerns that I have heard voiced by our members and others.
Administrative/Ministry restructuring = Theological de-structuring (?)
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Ramarius
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# 16551
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Posted
Glamorgan University's Paul Chambers has some interesting views on this. He makes a correlation between the decline of heavy industry in Wales in the 1980s and decline in church attendance. The common link is how declining industry wrecked community cohesion (with people leaving areas) and by breaking up the social fabric of which large workforces was a part. He postulates that as workers moved from heavy industry (he cites Steel in Port Talbot) to manufacturing and service sectors, the previous homogeneity of communities was diluted. Alongside this, he points to congregations becoming insular and not embracing outsiders.
As nonconformist churches lost members in droves, Pentecostal churches grew both by conversion and transfer. He points to too many small congregations in too many buildings, unable to adapt to the new and intense social challenges of poverty and worklessness.
But it's not all doom and gloom. Chambers reckons that churches can adapt and exert the influence of the Gospel by taking up a bigger social role in local communities. Church schools remain strong and have a good reputation, whilst churches that use their buildings for multiple purposes (he cites mentoring schemes, sports activities, arts and advice services) as well as worship tend to be more successful in terms of local influence and attendance at worship. Typically these churches have an evangelical focus which has, Chambers believes, helped them become more adaptable.
Reflecting on this I am aware, from a professional interest, of the impact of poverty and deprivation in Welsh communities and the massive social shifts that have been experienced in the last 30 years. Congregations which once had an established place in the social fabric of societies have had to find new ways of serving the most essential felt needs of the communities where they are established. In every generation churches have to ask the question "Why should anyone listen to our message?" From Chambers' research I think we can learn that for communities which have suffered tremendous upheavals, before they address the question "is the message true?" they must first have a positive answer to the question "does the messenger care?"
[ 24. August 2012, 21:48: Message edited by: Ramarius ]
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Ender's Shadow
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# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
From Chambers' research I think we can learn that for communities which have suffered tremendous upheavals, before they address the question "is the message true?" they must first have a positive answer to the question "does the messenger care?"
Cute sociology, naff theology; this is the route that has led the church to establish any number of social work agencies and never actually preach the gospel. There is no evidence that the early church used it as a model*: the pattern we see there is people just 'gossiping the gospel' because their relationship with God is so central to their lives. To be honest, if a church attendance falls because of sociological factors, then that's overwhelming evidence that that church was mainly a social club... OK so I'm overstating the case for effect, but I think there's some validity there; for me, given that being a Christian is about one's own relationship with God and church attendance falls out of that, if their attendance is so loosely rooted, then there probably wasn't any reality to their faith.
* The fatuous suggestion that they healed so we should build hospitals should be disdained for the bad joke that it is.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
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Ramarius
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# 16551
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Posted
@Enders Shadow. Good challenge. In terms of the impact of social change on church attendance - maybe I need to clarify this. What you had in Port Talbot (for example) was a community knit together by a number of interweaves strands. The unifying effect of working in the same industry over a number of generations was a very strong strand here. Closing the steel works led to large numbers of people leaving the area which changed the nature of the community by breaking up longstanding relationships and families. Perhaps what I needed to draw out more clearly was the multiplicity of small congregations that characterised the church scene. Take a few strong families away and the congregation starts to become less viable.
On the social impact vis a vis Gospel preaching you're right there's a risk that the church ends up looking no different from any number of other social regeneration schemes. On the other hand, so long as the Gospel continues to be preached, I'd say that community regeneration is part and parcel of the transformational message of the kingdom. Long term unemployment has debilitating effects on personal motivation, health, levels of crime, and ambition and aspiration. Because the Gospel provides a cosmic vision if hope, it's the most powerful message anywhere to lift a community out of this cycle of introversion and despair.
I've drawn out Chambers' interests as a sociologist since that's where he's coming from. But I'm also left with the impression that the churches he mentions are finding expression of their evangelical witness rather than substituting community service for Gospel witness.
Any views from the Valleys welcome
[ 25. August 2012, 10:58: Message edited by: Ramarius ]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I've read Paul Chambers and found him interesting. I'm not Welsh, but I have studied in South Wales, and the number of abandoned churches on one of the main roads in the town where I lived was really surprising.
As for bringing sociological reflections to bear on religious belief and practice, I think it's important, because the gospel isn't preached or lived in a vacuum. Faith shouldn't be divorced from the other pressing social issues in people's lives. When that happens, it's only a matter of time before people begin to treat it as something fairly irrelevant. Yes, it may be the case that many people's faith is weak - maybe they're going to church because that's the done thing for respectable people in their culture - but theoretically, church is an environment where people can be spiritually fed. Spiritually weak people and social climbers need to feed their souls, just like anyone else!
It's also true that many people are believers without going to church. There may be sociological reasons why church is unappealing to them, even if they want to follow Jesus. Churches need to be aware of this.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Here's a view from the Valleys, or at least someone who grew up in a Valley.
Ender's Shadow is talking bollocks again.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
The 'social gospel' and so on has been blamed for the decline of Christianity and church/chapel going in the Welsh Valleys.
I would say that the effects of the Welsh Revival of 1904/05 cut both ways - provoking something of a reaction against a kind of other-worldly pietism. I grew up in the Valleys and there were plenty of people around whose forebears had been 'put-off' or repelled by the Revival as well as plenty whose forebears had been converted and transformed by it.
The same sun that melts the wax hardens the clay.
That said, there was something very petty and pietistic about aspects of the Revival and of Welsh non-conformity in general. They took a very dim view of sports on Sundays and so on, even though these very sports were keeping people out of the pubs and giving them wholesome things to do.
A lot of the 'energy' generated (or channelled) by the Revival was channelled (or dissipated depending on your point of view) into Nationalism, social action and trades-union or Labour Party politics.
There was also a rather sinister side to it all, particularly in North Wales, where Anglicans were even cold-shouldered and forced to move from their homes in some areas. It wasn't always pretty, wasn't all the sweetness and light of popular Revivalist mythology.
Ultimately, there's only so long you can spend singing revivalist hymns at the top of your lungs. It's no wonder the revival movements ran their course. Evan Roberts was virtually a nervous wreck after 18 months. You can't keep up that level of intensity for prolonged periods and, I would argue, neither are we intended to.
There are lots of reasons for the decline of church attendance in Wales and some of the 'blame' must be assigned to the churches and chapels themselves - they were a victim of their own pietistic success and a victim of their own pietistic inability to channel it all more positively, I submit.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Darllenwr
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# 14520
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Posted
From the perspective of one living and (attempting) preaching in The Valleys, I would suggest that a large part of the 'problem' is what I would describe as a "So What?" attitude. Certainly around where I live, churches have become very set in their ways and apt to drive out the younger element because they have the temerity to suggest that there is a need for change. You have probably heard the joke about how many elderly Baptist Deacons it takes to change a light bulb ...
What we find is that the general reaction to preaching Christ crucified is, "So what?" People, or certainly the younger age groups, are simply not interested in church - as far as they are concerned, it has nothing for them. I am sure that many people will want to jump on me for this remark, but there does seem to be an attitude of entitlement - the idea that there has to be something in it for me before I will take any interest in it. Is this, I wonder, because much of our advertising today seems to be based on the premise of desert? By which I mean, "You deserve a perfect life, it's not your fault that you don't have one."
People any much younger than myself (somewhat north of 50) are not interested in what the church has to offer. In fairness, the lack of interest is largely based upon ignorance - they have never taken the trouble to find out what the church does have to offer, but "everybody knows" there's nothing in the church that I want.
Curiously enough, given that the common theory is that what young people want is 'lively' worship, with drums and bass etc, it was the Pentecostal denominations that were the first to disappear from this area. The nearest Elim chapel is now in Caerffili (10 miles away), whilst the nearest AoG is in Crumlin (7 miles). I have no idea where the nearest Apostolic is to be found. All three had their representatives in Bargoed when I arrived here in 1983. All have gone. The Methodists had to abandon both their Central Hall and their Lesser Hall when they became too few to maintain the buildings. The English Baptists have had to hand their building over to the local council to use as a library and now lease back a small part of it for their use. Even the Roman Catholics have declined - where they used to hold three Masses on a Sunday, now they have one. Of all denominations that were in Bargoed in 1983, only the Anglicans are still looking (relatively) healthy, and I wouldn't put too much money on us.
Church has become something that kindles no interest ...
Clearly preaching is not hitting the spot; if we are not to vanish from the scene competely, we had better discover what does and that right early!
E.T.A. Well, you asked for a view from the Valleys - you have only yourselves to blame.
[ 27. August 2012, 18:56: Message edited by: Darllenwr ]
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
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Ender's Shadow
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ultimately, there's only so long you can spend singing revivalist hymns at the top of your lungs. It's no wonder the revival movements ran their course.
Having spent 4 hours in a black church on Saturday where they were very noisily singing the songs of decades ago, I can assure you it can be maintained... not sure it's healthy - but it CAN be done!
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Sure, Ender's Shadow, you can sustain it for a while, but ultimately you'll need to supplement it (I'm not suggesting they replace it) with something else.
The black-led churches don't JUST sing songs - they are involved with all sorts of community initiatives.
One of the things that hasn't been mentioned so far is the influence of alternatives to church. I once read a fascinating study about religion in Huddersfield. The chapels had been very, very strong from the 18th century through until around 1920 - but from about 1922 the decline was rapid. The study put this down to the emergence of the cinema and other forms of entertainment - prior to that it was all lantern-slides, amateur dramatics and sporting activities either closely or loosely connected with the churches and chapels.
Huddersfield and its surrounding Pennine Valleys are very, very similar to South Wales both culturally and demographically - although more ethnically diverse these days I would suggest.
There was the added element in Huddersfield that the whole town was owned and run by a small coterie of wealthy industrialists. The only 'say' that people had, in comparison to nearby Leeds where there was a more fluid and diverse economy and infrastructure, was which church or chapel to attend.
As things 'loosened up' in terms of the infrastructure, the ability to have a 'say' in how things were done and run, then church and chapel attendance also declined.
Interesting ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Stephen
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# 40
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Posted
It might be worth thinking for a moment about the parish share/quota whatever.......there seems to be about 3 grades of parishes and which one you're in depends on all sorts of circumstances
The following link gives details of how things are worked out in St.Alban's diocese. Yes I know it's English but I would've thought that the same principles would apply across the border and in most dioceses
How Parish Share is calculated
It seems however you do the sums you're looking for a contribution of Ł6-Ł7 per individual - and that's just the parish share - you haven't begun to think about saving money for a rainy day such as building repairs or indeed the charitable work of the church
So enpart's example of a parish share of Ł10K may seem small but it could still be a significant contribution for the members
Disestablishment has been mentioned - but I think it's not just that that's important but the reason behind it. Many people had turned from the church to the chapel which had the result I think of weakening the Anglican church as far as numbers are concerned so we're not starting from as strong a base as the Church of England. Yes later events have put the chapels in a parlous position to the extent that the Church in Wales is now the largest single denomination - or at least it was - last time I looked the RCs seem to be catching up if they haven't overtaken us - but that doesn't mean to say that the CiW is in a strong position. I have been amused in the past by Welsh bishops taking a stance on devolution saying that the CiW has never looked back, but that was definitely not the view of the Welsh bishops of the 1920s who if anything were terrified of the prospect
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
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Stephen
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# 40
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Oh - forgot something. One other thing in the report recommends making Llandaff the archiepiscopal see. That is quite likely to strain charity considerably when the Governing Body meets I would suggest!! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
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Panda
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# 2951
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Posted
They'll get over it. It's the only sensible option - you can't have the ApB of Wales based in St Asaph or Bangor; even Swansea would be hard work. Monmouth was just about do-able, last time, and Cardiff is by far the easiest now.
What about the recommendation to sell off parsonages and raise cleric's stipends so they can buy them back?
My reactions to this one were:
Why on earth? What good would it do?
Once most vicarages (4-5 beds, 2 bathrooms, 2 reception rooms, study) hit the market, no cleric on roughly Ł20K will afford them. Clerics will only be able to discern a calling to the area of town where they can afford a house.
No CofE clerics will come to Wales because they won't have saved enough to buy a house.
And raise cleric's stipends? All of them? With what money?
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enpart
Apprentice
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Posted
Maybe from an increase in the block grant from the RB using money raised from the sale of all those closed church buildings (?)!
The parish share will be increased across the board - the review presents this as a plus-point for churches because even though there will be an initial raise, it will level off (at some point) and become stable at a fixed amount for a long period.
This is a bit speculative as it presumes that the renewal strategy will work - it's also definitely not a plus-point for those churches who will not be able to meet the initial raise.....bringing their 'financial viability' immediately into question.
I have a box of old letters in the church that were written by the incumbent rector at the time of disestablishment - he was definitely not a happy man!
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Below the Lansker
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# 17297
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Posted
How much realistically would the CinW expect to be able to make on the sale of redundant buildings? I know the property market is depressed at the moment, but large double-decker town chapels that have been put onto the market here (ideal for subdivision into flats) take years to find buyers. I can't see mediaeval village churches, with their odd shape and damp-prone stonework, being any easier to dispose of.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Below the Landsker ... it's a long time since I heard that expression. Tidy!
Welcome aboard, West Walian friend ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Below the Lansker
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# 17297
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Posted
I was going to say 'diolch', but I've seen spats and hostly interventions before on the use of languages other than English, so I'd better stick to 'Cheers, butt!'.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Well, I do lapse into Wenglish at times and no-one's told me off. Mind you, I do generally provide an interpretation whenever I do talk tidy now isn't it?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Only recently we had some observations here aboard Ship that the Church in Wales is doing better in rural areas than the non-conformists are ... which must mean that the state of rural non-conformity in Wales must be even more desperate ... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I can't speak for rural Wales but I have noticed that in parts of rural Cheshire some village churches are doing quite well with refugees from town and suburban parishes where they've either moved the candles or introduced drum'n'bass ...
From what I see around me, the situation for all of the denominations in this part of rural Wales is similarly dire. One of the mediaeval parish churches in Haverfordwest held its last service this month, a number of Wesleyan Methodist chapels have closed (because they are the first to bite the bullet, I think, not because their rate of decline has been steeper than anyone else's) and I can think of four or five churches and chapels within an hour's walk of my house where the congregations meet in single figures. There are exceptions, and bearing in mind where some of these congregations meet, the percentage of population they reach is perhaps comparable to the more successful town and city churches. It is difficult to see, however, how the denominations can develop a model of ministry to sustain and develop the work, without closures and/or mergers.
I don't have first hand experience of what things are like in the Welsh-speaking churches, but I'm told that it is even more depressing, with some congregations now meeting fortnightly and where attendance of above 20 at a service is considered a revival.
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Stephen
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# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Below the Lansker:
I was going to say 'diolch', but I've seen spats and hostly interventions before on the use of languages other than English, so I'd better stick to 'Cheers, butt!'.
As long as you give a translation I don't think they mind too much but if you put things only in Welsh you'll probably get called on it......
Besides I thought people below the Landsker didn't speak Welsh......
I know only of two churches in Haverfordwest - St.Mary's and St.Martin's ( the High one) .......don't know if it's one of those - but what's the third one ?
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
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Below the Lansker
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# 17297
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Posted
St Thomas a Becket - at the top of town, near the Green. There is also St. David's Prendergast, on the way up to the hospital, but it has historically been considered a village parish outside the town, so has its own incumbent. The three town parishes have the same ministerial team, I believe.
It's St Thomas a Becket which is closing, by the way.
[ 31. August 2012, 13:32: Message edited by: Below the Lansker ]
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Stephen
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# 40
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Posted
Ok , I know this is a tangent but people unfamiliar with south and west Wales might not be aware of,so perhaps an explanation should be given - Wikipaedia is your friend!
Landsker Line
Also - what the article doesn't mention - is former Scandinavian/Viking influence especially off the south Pembrokeshire coast, eg the islands of Skokholm and Skomer which sound pure Danish to me. Also further east - take Swansea for instance. Nothing to do with swans or the sea but everything to do a Viking adventurer - Svein's 'eye' or harbour hence Swansea. In Welsh it's 'Abertawe' meaning the place where the river Tawe flows into sea
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Below the Lansker:
St Thomas a Becket - at the top of town, near the Green. There is also St. David's Prendergast, on the way up to the hospital, but it has historically been considered a village parish outside the town, so has its own incumbent. The three town parishes have the same ministerial team, I believe.
It's St Thomas a Becket which is closing, by the way.
Oh - I think I know where it is - thanks
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
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Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297
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Posted
Just to add to what I said earlier...
I had a chat after service today to an old gent who occasionally visits our place. He drives about 14 miles into Welsh-speaking North Pembrokeshire to attend services at the Baptist chapel of his youth. They meet fortnightly (about 7 or 8 of them, all beyond their threescore years and ten). He told me today that there are four CinW churches in that area about to fold, two immediately, a further two when the current incumbent reaches retirement age. Unless something drastic happens, we are looking at a situation where entire swathes of the Welsh countryside will soon be left without any Christian witness of whatever description.
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Ondergard
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# 9324
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Posted
I'm the Superintendent Minister of the Methodist Church in Pembrokeshire (one of my churches backs on to the Green, and is about two hundred yards from St Thomas's, which is closing).
Last week, we closed two chapels on the same day. I had to preach and lead both services - they were reported on (badly and inaccurately and with an agenda I don't like) by the BBC on Monday.
They were the fifth and sixth chapels in our Circuit to close since the beginning of the last Connexional year (1 September 2011-31 August 2012), although one of them was a pure URC which had a Methodist minister looking after it, and another was a URC/Methodist single congregation in a URC building.
Today, most members of the closed chapels were worshipping in other churches in the Circuit. We have lost non-attending members, for sure, but by far the majority of those who attended the chapels which have closed worshipped elsewhere in the Circuit today, and will continue, hopefully.
It has been painful, but we hope that we can embrace inevitable change optimistically, and allow God to prune us so that we might serve the present age: we hope to concentrate on the churches which are showing signs of growth and potential for further growth, and re-shape our Circuit effectively.
I am sure that God hasn't finished with either Anglicanism or Methodism in Pembrokeshire - and if the Bishop of St David's has got anything to do with it, we will be working together far more closely.
Sadly, I won't be here to witness it, because I am on the move next summer!
[ 02. September 2012, 20:35: Message edited by: Ondergard ]
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Is part of the problem that even if it had fantastic church going figures, the permanent population of west Pembrokeshire is too low now to sustain the number of churches and chapels it had when agriculture was all done by hand?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Ondergard
Shipmate
# 9324
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Posted
Yes, I think you are right on that score - just as you would be right on that score in many other rural areas, like Cornwall, where I once served.
That's why we believe the way forward is gathered churches on Sunday supporting midweek Cell/House/Class Meetings midweek.
By the way, a POI for Lansker... we aren't called Wesleyan Methodists, and haven't been since 1932, when Methodist Union happened. I know it might seem trivial to you, but it wouldn't be if I started to call the Church in Wales the Church of England in Wales, would it?
Bearing in mind that Methodist Union happened almost as long ago as Welsh disestablishment, I think the concept should have sunk in ecumenically by now, don't you?
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:
By the way, a POI for Lansker... we aren't called Wesleyan Methodists, and haven't been since 1932, when Methodist Union happened. I know it might seem trivial to you, but it wouldn't be if I started to call the Church in Wales the Church of England in Wales, would it?
I presume that Lansker referred to 'Wesleyan Methodists' as a way of distinguishing them from the Calvinistic Methodists, who were very significant in Wales at one time.
Are the 'Wesleyan Methodists' now more numerous in Wales than the Calvinistic variety?
[ 02. September 2012, 23:34: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Calvinistic Methodists are now known as the Presbyterian Church of Wales (PCW) but in conversation they're often IME simply referred to as Methodists so often you need to do some unpicking to find out what's meant. Pace Ondergard, I do often find myself using the W word in those situations in the absence of a better one. "Proper" always seems like it might be offensive! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Especially in Welsh speaking areas I think Seasick
Not in more English speaking areas - in fact if someone said 'Methodist' to me here I'd assume they meant 'Wesleyan' and not Calvinistic but to one of more former colleagues at work - admittedly in a Welsh speaking area - Methodist meant Calvinistic Methodist = PCW
I can assure Ondergard that no disrespect was meant to the Methodist Church at least as far as I was concerned and - I suspect - Below the Lansker
The other thing in Wales to be aware of is the United Reformed Church, in England a union of Presbyterians and Congregationalists. In Wales, the Anglophone Congregationalists have joined the URC, the PCW hasn't and Welsh Comgregationalism - 'Annibynwyr' in Welsh - is still a different denomination
With regard to Svitlana's question, I'm not sure. Certainly the Methodist churches in Swansea seem to be doing OK - Mumbles Methodist Church for instance is open daily, it's had renovation work I think and it also runs a cafe, so they seem to be doing OK, AFAICT.
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297
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Posted
With regard to the use of Wesleyan Methodist, it was intended as a way of distinguishing you from Welsh Presbyterians. It's obviously not an issue in England, but using the word Methodist here (especially with people from a Welsh-speaking background) will often bring the rejoinder 'which ones do you mean?'. However, apologies if it raised any hackles.
Calvinistic Methodism was especially strong in the Welsh-speaking North and North-western areas, stretching down as far as South Cardiganshire. They have always been relatively weak in Pembrokeshire, due largely to a number of early fratricidal disagreements between Methodist preachers and to the fact that Baptists and Congregationalists had already established a network of congregations (both Welsh and English speaking) by the end of the 18th century. Even in their Welsh-speaking heartlands, they have undergone precipitous decine. Methodism in English-speaking Pembrokeshire tended to take the form of Wesleyan or (more rarely) Primitive Methodism. There are some Calvinistic Methodist chapels in English-speaking southern Pembrokeshire, but they are few and far between.
As for the number of houses of worship in relation to the population, yes it probably is true that there are far more buildings than we need. Even when some of them were built 'in the good old days when the chapels were full', it is clear from looking at the population returns and the capacity of some of the buildings that they would only have ever been full for special occasions.
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Well for those who are interested the GB are meeting next week
Governing Body Meeting
I shall be safe and sound in the north of England..... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) ...
Weapons .......
Well how about.....custard pies, jelly, fresh cream gateau......or will people be content with guided missals......
[ 05. September 2012, 22:05: Message edited by: Stephen ]
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
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