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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Church in Wales Strategy for Growth
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enpart
Apprentice
# 17272
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Posted
Hi,
I’ve spent the last few weeks reading through The Way Ahead and the recently released Strategy for Growth, both of which tell us that if we don’t do something, and don’t do it quickly, the CinW will wither away and expire.
Our small rural church has been in an interregnum for two years and has not had a service led by a stipendiary minister for that whole time. We have given nearly £10,000 in ministry share during that period.
We are in a grouped benefice already but if the proposals are implemented we will become one of 20 -25 churches in a ‘Ministry Area’ who will share 3 stipendiary ministers and an assortment of NSMs and Lay readers.
In order that the Strategy have any chance of succeeding it seems clear that a lot of small rural churches will be facing closure some time over the next five years.
I’m a churchwarden writing up our PCC response and have to demonstrate that our church is ‘financially and strategically viable’ in the current ‘post-Christian age’
I know what that means (I looked it up) but the phrase did not go down too well at last weeks impromptu PCC meeting – especially after I pointed out that as parishes might be suspended across the whole of Wales our PCC would probably cease to exist anyway.
We are one of those small rural churches with a small congregation who might find themselves facing some difficult decisions – we are in the heart of ‘traditional’ Wales where, frankly, getting some of the members to agree to move a candlestick a few inches requires an public inquiry. I seriously wonder whether the authors of The Way Ahead have ever set foot in a rural Welsh church – the assumption that by closing small churches all the dispossessed will then just go to a nearby big one is a bit optimistic to say the least.
Thoughts and advice about the ‘Strategy for Growth’ would be most welcome – as would any thoughts on how to negotiate the coming crisis with a church that is now half angry traditionalists, and half evangelical reformers!
Posts: 13 | From: west wales | Registered: Aug 2012
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I have been pretty skeptical of the "we have to close churches to save churches" line, but that's me.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by enpart:
Hi,
I’ve spent the last few weeks reading through The Way Ahead and the recently released Strategy for Growth, both of which tell us that if we don’t do something, and don’t do it quickly, the CinW will wither away and expire.
I'm pretty sceptical of the 'look busy, Jesus is coming!' approach. Even more, of running round like headless chickens wondering what exactly to do. Surely the only thing we (CinW, CofE, whoever) need to do is to be faithful in prayer and pastoral care. In other words, what we are already (or should have been) doing.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Only recently we had some observations here aboard Ship that the Church in Wales is doing better in rural areas than the non-conformists are ... which must mean that the state of rural non-conformity in Wales must be even more desperate ... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I can't speak for rural Wales but I have noticed that in parts of rural Cheshire some village churches are doing quite well with refugees from town and suburban parishes where they've either moved the candles or introduced drum'n'bass ...
West Wales has a more scattered population so I don't see that as a solution ...
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Here's the link for those who may be interested
Review
Of course the whole thing has to be discussed by the Governing Body next month........
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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enpart
Apprentice
# 17272
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Posted
I’m also not entirely convinced that closing churches helps in any way, but it does appear to be an integral part of the re-structuring – with the current number of churches there are not enough ministers to go around. The stress on ‘viability’ makes me wonder whether this is structural shrinkage designed chiefly to keep in step with financial shrinkage.
We’re not quite at the headless chicken stage yet – we have managed to introduce some gradual ‘innovations’ over the past year which raised interest and occasionally even attendance! We are certainly faithful in prayer, but pastoral care hasn’t been easy without a vicar for two years.
Chapel attendance seems to be steadily declining in our local area (which is very rural)
The Strategy proposals seem to be setting up a model of concentrating effort in one or two large churches in rural towns, and letting the outlying churches make their own decisions about closures or changes before they slip into unrecoverable debt – every church in our group of six, except one, has to use its reserves to meet the quota payment so it is only a matter of time before they run out – I think this may be what is behind ‘The Church in Wales cannot go on doing the same things in the same way; some things need to change and we are open to – and indeed encourage – that possibility’
I like the thought of just staying as we are and soaking up refugees but I don’t think it would happen – we are just too far away from the nearest towns, and there are a lot of other churches in between.
The Governing Body may tinker with it but most seem to think that it will be approved - they rejected the last one about ten years ago
Posts: 13 | From: west wales | Registered: Aug 2012
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enpart
Apprentice
# 17272
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Posted
Thank you for posting the link Stephen
Extract from the review…..
‘The Church in Wales rightly has the Eucharist at the heart of its worshipping life. However, it is widely recognised that for the majority of people today Christianity has become a foreign language and what goes on in church strikes them as strange, even alien. ……….They should be able to offer a variety of styles of Christian community and worship. We do not assume that all those outside the church would prefer alternative forms of worship. On the contrary, we know that some young people in fact prefer more traditional styles. Nevertheless there is another large and significant culture outside the church at the moment for whom present church services mean almost nothing.’
That’s quite a call to arms for a small place of worship that has been holding traditional services for well over a thousand years (the church was founded in 490AD, the present building is the third on the site) It may be good strategy, but it 's a bit thin, and contradictory, on direction or practical application.
The Strategy document describes services as ‘book-bound’
One elderly member of the church asked me ‘What does it mean book-bound….do they mean the Bible?’
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tomsk
Shipmate
# 15370
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Posted
I gather that when the Church of Wales was disestablished, all pre-1662 endowments where confiscated. Is this making the church run out of money more quickly now?
It sounds like a dismantling of the parish system (I think it says that group ministries aren't working). As you say, enpart, people are very attached to their own church and won't readily go to another one. However, if you keep things as they are, won't the system collapse and there be nothing left for future generations. It sounds so difficult for churches like yours to pay for stipendiary clergy
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 372 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
enpart
Closure may be inevitable for some churches, but experience shows that the number of churchgoers decreases overall when that happens. It's better if you can arrange for at least part of the building to remain in use as a church. The other day I walked past an inner city Anglican church, half of which had been converted into an NHS property. I know of another church that has knocked down an old extension and has built a new one that's used as an annex to the school across the road. Yet another has turned itself into a two storey property, with shops and a tiny chapel below, and church above. All traditional CofE buildings. Find out what your area needs and see if any funding is available to help you convert your church. There are church consultants who help Anglicans with this kind of thing.
In terms of the traditionalist v. evangelical thing, it always saddens me that church leaders find it so difficult to offer a vision that inspires everyone since, as you know, without a vision, the people perish. A divided house will fall.
But since the evangelicals are supposedly happier with change, I suppose you could try closing down their churches and send them to share a building with the traditionalists! At any rate, if it's harder to lose an evangelical than a traditionalist (which seems to be the case) then perhaps your efforts should be geared towards addressing the concerns of traditionalists rather than evangeilcals.
[ 17. August 2012, 22:45: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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enpart
Apprentice
# 17272
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Posted
It’s difficult to say if the dis-endowment is still having an effect 100 years later. A large amount of land was given to the University of Wales and the local authorities – our own church lost 120 acres of glebe-land - ironically land that helped to support the church and its Rector pre-disestablishment via tithes and other income.
The Representative Body, in whom all property was vested following disestablishment, has general funds of £513m (2010) and a net income of around £18m – the DBFs raise roughly a similar figure from ministry share.
The problem seems to stem from deficits on investments caused by the recession combined with an increase in retirees and a lack of new trainees, decreasing numbers of churchgoers, and increasing costs of maintenance of both property and ministry.
Personally I think the strategy is as good as the circumstances can allow – However, at grass-roots level the general consensus locally seems to be that we are being given a new strategy, and then being told to go and work out how to implement it…..a challenge that suits some, but not others – hence the mixed reactions of the ‘traditionalists’ who are naturally and perhaps rightly resistant to changes, and the over-zealous who are already talking about bringing in the kind of drum’n bass vibe that Gamaliel referred to earlier.
I’m very glad you said that that Svitlana, as already it is the traditionalists who are feeling the most upset by the proposed changes – I think the PCCs first job is to find a consensus of opinion and then seek a vision that will be seen as ‘viable’ in terms of any new Ministry team strategy, all without causing anyone to feel so upset that they would leave.
Our church is unfortunately (I never thought I would ever use that word in this context) an architectural gem that is listed up to the hilt, which means making any major physical changes to it almost impossible – it would be the ultimate irony if we had to close the church because the only thing it could be used for was a church!
Posts: 13 | From: west wales | Registered: Aug 2012
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
The thing is - although this is very unscientific - my own impression is that here in Swansea at any rate, lay people tend to be -Low.....Much of the area was affected by the Parish Communion and that seems to the prevailing culture where the Eucharist is the main form of worship either in its traditional or modern form.That doesn't mean however that it's an A/C area - I would be inclined to definitely not ..... OTOH I get the feeling - no more than that - that there has been in increase in the clergy who are either Evangelicals or tend to that form of Anglicanism.......so you have the problem of where to put them
The other thing is - if you start closing churches it results in a highly charged response not just from the churchgoers but also from the community. The Church in Wales is disestablished but it certainly doesn't act it and people expect the church to be there if it's only there for them to stay away from...... ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Much of the opposition comes from people in the parish who don't go to church and quite often they're capable of organised opposition
You may have seen or come across the situation in Maerdy where one of the churches closed recently ........there were hopes of a deal with the authorities but with the review the people there seem to have given up hope.
If you have an accelerated programme of closures there are going to be more Maerdys. So far the C-i-W is fortunate to have a good relationship with the local press and TV - in fact I'm frequently amazed at how easy a ride bishops get here compared with politicians
In the Central Swansea benefice two churches have closed.In one case it had about 10 worshippers and they felt they couldn't carry on. The building was not closed, being used by the Cyrenians and also on occasion I think by the Coptic Church. The congregation then went to a neighbouring church within the benefice.On another occasion a different church building was closed and this was quite emotional as the church really was closed. However the worshippers decamped to the same neighbouring church
Tomsk - yes possibly, I don't know - but - there is a perception that the Church is rich and has got plenty of money but the fact is we did lose out at disestablishment....so I think Svitlana is by and large correct - if you have to close the church but the building is used that seems to cause at lot less of a hostile response
The other thing you have to remember is that Wales can be pretty tribal (!)and people have an attachment to the church they go to - the same is true of the chapels to be fair
Finally what model should the Church adopt? Should it be a business in which case you'll want to maximise your profits and if that means closing some churches to concentrate on larger ones, then tough
Or should it be more like a co-operative or public service where you only close if you really have to ; you might be of the opinion that richer churches should subsidise poorer ones - although even here you might still have to close eventually; and also one might want to bear in mind that some of these rural or former industrial areas have had in the past various services taken from them. The bank has closed, then the post office, then the library .......and then the church.Transport in Wales is not good and in many cases non-existent on a Sunday. I live on a good bus route - every 15 minutes during the day - in the evening it goes down to hourly. On Sunday there's a 30 minute service - the first bus is at 9.25 the last is at 18.20 - in other words, courtesy of First no evening service at all, and this in a city of 180000
So the report I think raises a lot of questions for which I have no answers.......
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
There was a church near where I live, two in fact, who were grouped as part of a pastoral charge. Their buildings were getting very old and the maintenance was becoming very expensive. They decided to sell both buildings and build a new church.
So they sold. The building proceeds remained in trust.
Then they moved into a local elementary school as an interim arrangement. They said they needed to find five other users for a new building, a daycare, adult education, other community groups. They didn't find enough. But they didn't want to build a new building anyway. They like the freedom of just renting. They use their building trust fund to sponsor charitable works. They aren't consumed by their expenses anymore. They'll never have their own building again.
Sometimes we have to think outside the box.
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
The thing is - although this is very unscientific - my own impression is that here in Swansea at any rate, lay people tend to be -Low.....
Sorry I should have said MOTR - Low
And Low rather than Evangelical - surplice and stole for instance
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Just as strategic planning can cut across what people really want, so can the lack of it create impossible dilemmas. I'm thinking of an inner-city area with this problem: three churches, within less than five minutes walk of each other. One, traditionally evangelical now carving out a new role as a self-styled 'progressive, inclusive' church; one, traditionally anglo-catholic, with a tiny congregation but a deeply appreciated ministry of 'presence' in a multi-ethnic (and largely muslim) community; and one, closed for many years and now being restored and re-opened as a consciously evangelical/charismatic preaching centre aimed at young professionals. Any sensible strategy would have combined the three approaches into one building. But the freehold, clerical rivalry and no doubt long historical memories combined to frustrate this.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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enpart
Apprentice
# 17272
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Posted
A combined approach does seem to be the best way forward, provided that it is acceptable to everyone involved and to a certain extent the local community – as Stephen pointed out Wales can be a bit tribal (!) which would also extend to how things should be done in their church, even if most of them have never attended a service in their lives there’s an element of ‘we have always done it like that’ which resists any change at all - they also expect the church to be there for their weddings, christenings and burials, the notion that it would ever have to close is unthinkable to most of them, but as Maerdy demonstrated, the unthinkable can and does happen even when a whole community tries to prevent it.
Its also become clear to me over the past few weeks that very few members of the non-churchgoing local or wider community realise that churches in Wales are almost completely dependent on their congregations to raise money to keep them going – a lot of them think that the CinW pay for everything when the truth is almost the exact opposite.
As for selling it and becoming nomadic, lovely idea but just one snag – all church buildings in Wales are owned by the Representative Body, not the people who use, run, maintain, and worship in them. If it was sold we wouldn’t get the proceeds.
[ 18. August 2012, 08:30: Message edited by: enpart ]
Posts: 13 | From: west wales | Registered: Aug 2012
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
What works for a town based group of people isn't the same as countryside based people group.
Interestingly, townies have have less interest imho in their church buildings (generalisation alert!) than villagers.
Just because a report has come out, that's not the end of the matter: note the endless New reports that lie wasting away on clerics bookshelves or propping up greenhouse shelving....
Strong leadership of the Can Do variety will help and that leadership does not have to be stipendiary.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Just as strategic planning can cut across what people really want, so can the lack of it create impossible dilemmas. I'm thinking of an inner-city area with this problem: three churches, within less than five minutes walk of each other. One, traditionally evangelical now carving out a new role as a self-styled 'progressive, inclusive' church; one, traditionally anglo-catholic, with a tiny congregation but a deeply appreciated ministry of 'presence' in a multi-ethnic (and largely muslim) community; and one, closed for many years and now being restored and re-opened as a consciously evangelical/charismatic preaching centre aimed at young professionals. Any sensible strategy would have combined the three approaches into one building. But the freehold, clerical rivalry and no doubt long historical memories combined to frustrate this.
And it might well be that the continued existence of the three parishes is exactly what permits the varied and effective response Angloid describes. As long as they are paying their way and (one hopes) working cooperatively on other issues (e.g., common web presence), their archdeacon/regional ministry supervisor should just relax and let them get on with it. The problem starts when one of them can no longer pay their way, in which case the congregation needs to look at its situation.
I know nothing about rural Wales but wonder that the model of many Aboriginal communities here might well be copied-- local elders ordained to take services, while a seminary priest continues their training and works on religious education for a group of churches.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Just as strategic planning can cut across what people really want, so can the lack of it create impossible dilemmas. I'm thinking of an inner-city area with this problem: three churches, within less than five minutes walk of each other. One, traditionally evangelical now carving out a new role as a self-styled 'progressive, inclusive' church; one, traditionally anglo-catholic, with a tiny congregation but a deeply appreciated ministry of 'presence' in a multi-ethnic (and largely muslim) community; and one, closed for many years and now being restored and re-opened as a consciously evangelical/charismatic preaching centre aimed at young professionals. Any sensible strategy would have combined the three approaches into one building. But the freehold, clerical rivalry and no doubt long historical memories combined to frustrate this.
But it sounds to me as if each of these churches has developed a specific ministry to the area, and is doing its thing quite well.
There would be a problem if they were all obviously failing, but they seem to have a vision.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Except that tiny congregations have to cope with budgets beyond their capacity, when sharing a building would make much more sense.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
As a Methodist, my first response was "Oh! They're creating circuits..." ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Honestly, I think the only way forward in the rural areas (and many of the suburban and urban ones) will be that we work ecumenically. But many of us (me included) will need to get over ourselves a bit for that to happen. I was a bit disappointed to see that the ecumenical dimension in the report was so minimal.
[ 18. August 2012, 13:18: Message edited by: seasick ]
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Except that tiny congregations have to cope with budgets beyond their capacity, when sharing a building would make much more sense.
If th4e budgets be beyond their capacity, and I do not know if this be the case with these three congregations, then they would need to look at their situations. Amalgamation or building-sharing might be among them but, depending on the geography of the place, might not be. As has been observed above, there are those who cease attending if there are no reasonably convenient alternatives (I am thinking of a certain suburban church closure in Ottawa, which gave a friend of mine a choice between a taxi or a 45-minute walk, as there was no public transport at that hour-- I imagine the situation would be worse in a rural setting).
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Except that tiny congregations have to cope with budgets beyond their capacity, when sharing a building would make much more sense.
Obviously, if their budgets are being stretched beyond their capacity then they may well end up sharing a building. Either that, or they'll all just close. But the church that's recently restored its building clearly doesn't see itself as overstretched.
The two evangelical ones might be a good paring, but the other one might feel swamped. At all events, it's not easy to merge churches with different organisational structures, different theological emphases, etc. It's also the case that the bigger party in any paring tends to dominate proceedings, which can cause some tensions. I've heard of this in relation to CofE/Methodist partnerships.
I'm not against the idea of church mergers, but ecumenicalism in general needs to be aware of creating a culture of the lowest common denominator, which can be uninspiring. Blended churches and denominations may save money initially, but in the long run they don't necessarily halt church decline.
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
My brother in law is the priest in charge / minister of a joint Anglican / Methodist building where the separate identity is maintained by having separate services on a Sunday morning, with a joint coffee time between. It seems to work well, and might be an appropriate way forward in some circumstances: building sharing <> mingling the congregations necessarily. Of course people who fail to recognise the vast differences within the CofE tend to struggle with this, and end up encouraging bland, unattractive 'mainstream' worship that satisfies noone...
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Ender's Shadow
Yes, that's what some churches do. But when they do that, they see themselves as separate congregations, don't they? In the circles I've mixed in, that seems to be frowned on. Before my Methodist church closed we considered sharing a building with another church in the area, but our minister seemed to think it was improper for two churches to be meeting separately in the same church at the same time. The Anglicans were (and are) sharing a building with the URC but worshipping separately, and this seemed to be viewed as a cause for regret. At the moment, they're working towards complete union, with the implication that this is the ideal.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Except that tiny congregations have to cope with budgets beyond their capacity, when sharing a building would make much more sense.
If th4e budgets be beyond their capacity, and I do not know if this be the case with these three congregations, then they would need to look at their situations. Amalgamation or building-sharing might be among them but, depending on the geography of the place, might not be.
These particular three, as I pointed out, are within five minutes walk of each other.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
@Angloid. Ah! I missed that bit. Nevertheless, I'm not sure that there's an argument for any action, as long as they are covering their expenses and carrying out their niche ministries. I would presume that they are co-operating with aspects such as a joint website, hospital patient support, supply, service time coordination, etc., which are easily done and helpful to the public.
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Ender's Shadow
Yes, that's what some churches do. But when they do that, they see themselves as separate congregations, don't they? In the circles I've mixed in, that seems to be frowned on. Before my Methodist church closed we considered sharing a building with another church in the area, but our minister seemed to think it was improper for two churches to be meeting separately in the same church at the same time. The Anglicans were (and are) sharing a building with the URC but worshipping separately, and this seemed to be viewed as a cause for regret. At the moment, they're working towards complete union, with the implication that this is the ideal.
Yes, there is a belief hard coded into denominational leaders that there is no justification for separate styles of worship / patterns of belief because 'we are all Christians'. In doing so they reject the evidence of the dynamism of separate traditions, and actually attempt to impose a unity that even Rome doesn't; Rome after all accepts the role of the uniate churches in the same area etc. The problem of course is that such diversity may also become a justification for maintaining traditions that are actually unhelpful; unfortunately it is unusual to see such traditions confronted directly - instead things are left to run their course.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
empart:
As for selling it and becoming nomadic, lovely idea but just one snag – all church buildings in Wales are owned by the Representative Body, not the people who use, run, maintain, and worship in them. If it was sold we wouldn’t get the proceeds.
In the United Church of Canada it isn't that easy either. The church building is held in trust by the Board of Trustees of a congregation. They can't sell it without the Presbytery's permission. In the case of the church without a building, the Trustees keep the capital and can use the interest, but cannot dispose of the capital without permission of Presbytery. If they want to build a new building, they have to ask Presbytery too.
If a United Church congregation disbands, the proceeds of the sale of the church revert to the Presbytery.
Our church property law turns on the concept of "reversionary interest" which means in effect a church has multiple owners. The United Church Act and the Trusts of Model Deed baffles lawyers.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
There is a belief hard coded into denominational leaders that there is no justification for separate styles of worship / patterns of belief because 'we are all Christians'. In doing so they reject the evidence of the dynamism of separate traditions, and actually attempt to impose a unity that even Rome doesn't; Rome after all accepts the role of the uniate churches in the same area etc. The problem of course is that such diversity may also become a justification for maintaining traditions that are actually unhelpful; unfortunately it is unusual to see such traditions confronted directly - instead things are left to run their course.
I understand what you're saying.
As a British Methodist with an interest in church history, I should say that we've closed more churches in recent decades than all other mainstreanm denominations. Also, British Methodism as we know it today is itself the result of a merger - or a re-absorption - of several denominations. So from a certain point of view it would be inaccurate to say that that all Christians suffer overmuch from an inclination to cling on to redundant buildings and denominations that have run their course.
What happens, of course, is that once the money and the manpower run out ecumenicalism and rationalisation are simply inevitable; traditionalism holds sway only so long as there are funds to pay for it. Maybe the point is that churches should be closed/merged before things get to such a serious point. But I suppose knowing when to get out is a fine art, or else a business skill, and few church people have it. Christians often want to believe that 'God will find a way', that their presence in a particular place is their divine destiny. Few of us, if we're honest, would want to close a church that seems to be in a healthy state for the sake of ecumenicalism. It goes against our instincts. Maybe that's the problem. Despite the lipservice paid to doing God's work in a new setting, the fact is that church closures and mergers are experienced as failure by most churchgoers, and noone wants to welcome failure!
I think that perhaps Anglicans have a different perspective on this. In most mergers they participate in, they would be the senior party. Maybe some of them even see it as a case of wandering sheep returning to the fold! The validity of Methodist orders isn't accepted by the CofE, according to Wiki; I don't think this is the case the other way around.
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enpart
Apprentice
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Hi
My apologies but I have to correct an earlier post I made - I was incorrect to say that the Representative Body would get all proceeds from sales of churches in Wales - they do, but apparently there is a mechanism whereby it is possible to get some or all of the proceeds back for use in the parish - its a long and complex process but it does open up some possibilities along the lines of the suggested leasing of buildings via trust income - so not only a lovely idea but one that might just be workable here in Wales.
On the mixed services topic - walking out of church today my eye was caught by the 'This is a Covenanted Church' poster that has been there (largely ignored) for years. We have a good relationship with our local Methodist chapel and often join together in events ,fund-raising activities, concerts etc - but we have never shared services together.....now I'm wondering if sharing a few special services occasionally might help us both out....somehow working together as covenanted churches in a way that helps us both to keep our own buildings running, and our own identities (?)
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Ender's Shadow
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# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by enpart:
On the mixed services topic - walking out of church today my eye was caught by the 'This is a Covenanted Church' poster that has been there (largely ignored) for years. We have a good relationship with our local Methodist chapel and often join together in events ,fund-raising activities, concerts etc - but we have never shared services together.....now I'm wondering if sharing a few special services occasionally might help us both out....somehow working together as covenanted churches in a way that helps us both to keep our own buildings running, and our own identities (?)
There was a fashion for shared services in the 70s and 80s that was totally unproductive in the long term in my experience; either they were bland homogenised and contentless, or they merely reflected the style of the host church, which whilst being education for some (if you've never been to an Orthodox service, your Christian education IS defective) achieved little visible return.
@Seasick: The idea of the CofE moving to something similar to the Methodist circuit system fills me with horror; AFAICS the effect of this is to ensure a levelling down of the expectations of congregations, a wide variety of theologies expressed from the pulpit and a total lack of dynamism, because noone can be certain about what the next service in their church will be like. Would you want to risk taking a non-Christian to a service when you really have no idea what's going to be said from the pulpit? That that test gives the wrong answer demolishes any attraction to 'circuits'...
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
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Garasu
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# 17152
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Posted
Originally posted by Enders Shadow: quote:
@Seasick: The idea of the CofE moving to something similar to the Methodist circuit system fills me with horror; AFAICS the effect of this is to ensure a levelling down of the expectations of congregations, a wide variety of theologies expressed from the pulpit and a total lack of dynamism, because noone can be certain about what the next service in their church will be like. Would you want to risk taking a non-Christian to a service when you really have no idea what's going to be said from the pulpit? That that test gives the wrong answer demolishes any attraction to 'circuits'...
Hey! No horse in the Methodist race, but is there any evidence that they're less effective at attracting converts than you lot?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Zacchaeus
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# 14454
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Posted
Enpart I know that being listed can be very restrictive, but in my travels over the years I have come across small village churches who have used their space very imaginatlvely. Without altering structure, they have managed to find other uses to share their building.
However it is vital that church members are not 'precious' about their builidng they have to learn to relax and let others use it and take the risk. After all the alternative might be to loose the building altogehter.
Is there any way you can you use the historic church angle to get tourists in? I have been in Wales and found churches open to the public by following notices. I was actually in one last week that had signs on the main road saying the church was historic and open daily. It was unmanned but open and they had a things like book stalls and honesty boxes and of course envelopes to gift aid a donation. As it was unmanned I didn't get to ask how much money they made on these things, but it was still open and a worshipping community.....
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Originally posted by Enders Shadow: quote:
@Seasick: The idea of the CofE moving to something similar to the Methodist circuit system fills me with horror; AFAICS the effect of this is to ensure a levelling down of the expectations of congregations, a wide variety of theologies expressed from the pulpit and a total lack of dynamism, because noone can be certain about what the next service in their church will be like. Would you want to risk taking a non-Christian to a service when you really have no idea what's going to be said from the pulpit? That that test gives the wrong answer demolishes any attraction to 'circuits'...
Hey! No horse in the Methodist race, but is there any evidence that they're less effective at attracting converts than you lot?
I'm a Methodist. What I've read is that the Methodists have suffered a steeper decline than the CofE. There are various reasons for this.
I agree that there are problems with the circuit system, and Enders Shadow has listed some of them. However, I don't think that congregations suffer from having 'no idea what's going to be said from the pulpit'. In reality, the Methodist sermon is a very consistent thing; there are very rarely any surprises. The training process works almost too well in that regard! The quality of the preaching may be variable, but not normally the theological emphasis. But's easy to find out who's preaching at your church on any given Sunday; some people will absent themselves if a weak preacher is due. This is discouraged, of course, but it can't be prevented.
A circuit tends to be fairly homogenous when it comes to worship styles and theology since it shares all the same preachers, who don't expect to have to change what they do just to please one rogue congregation. It must be very difficult, I think, to be the one congregation in a circuit that wants to turn charismatic, say, if all the others are fairly MOTR.
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Ender's Shadow
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# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Originally posted by Enders Shadow: quote:
@Seasick: The idea of the CofE moving to something similar to the Methodist circuit system fills me with horror; AFAICS the effect of this is to ensure a levelling down of the expectations of congregations, a wide variety of theologies expressed from the pulpit and a total lack of dynamism, because noone can be certain about what the next service in their church will be like. Would you want to risk taking a non-Christian to a service when you really have no idea what's going to be said from the pulpit? That that test gives the wrong answer demolishes any attraction to 'circuits'...
Hey! No horse in the Methodist race, but is there any evidence that they're less effective at attracting converts than you lot?
Yes. This indicates that the rate of decline of Methodism is FAR higher than that of the CofE.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
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MarsmanTJ
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# 8689
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by enpart:
[snip] We have given nearly £10,000 in ministry share during that period.
Um, we (medium-small Evangelical Church) gave nearly £100k during our last interregnum as Parish Share.
quote:
We are in a grouped benefice already but if the proposals are implemented we will become one of 20 -25 churches in a ‘Ministry Area’ who will share 3 stipendiary ministers and an assortment of NSMs and Lay readers.
Well if you all give £10k a year, that totals £200k (if 20 churches), so 4 times the parish share giving of my (CofE) church which has a single minister. Perhaps the diocese is being a bit stingy by only giving three, but there are plenty of churches in my CofE diocese that have larger parish shares and a single minister. (One local, slightly larger church gives £70k Parish Share for a single minister)
Tim
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Vaticanchic
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# 13869
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Posted
There is another way to approach this, of course, which can be alluded to with the question - Do we know how far Orthodox Christians in the UK travel each Sunday to be present at the Liturgy? It's often a very, very long way.
All very well you say, but how do they show forth the reality of the Risen Lord in their local community? To tell you the truth, I don't know. But it won't be with needlework displays and flower festivals. Perhaps it will be seen in their obvious commitment to the Christian faith - there is no more powerful mission tool for encouraging discipleship than to glimpse a disciple.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
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enpart
Apprentice
# 17272
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Tim – wow, there are only five churches in the whole of our Diocese that give over 100k in ministry share, and they are in major towns………maybe the dis-endowment of the CinW is still having an effect ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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enpart
Apprentice
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Zacchaeus – we are taking steps to develop the tourist/historic church angle a bit although we’re not quite at the stage yet where the door can be left open at all times.
Open days have worked well and brought in visitors, some of whom have returned and attended a few services.
A nearby church had a bad experience which has made a lot of people in our church very wary of the open door policy – they had a bunch of teenage girls rampage through the church and broke a lot of things so now their door is locked unless anyone is in the church to keep an eye on things.
Personally I would like to take the chance but some of the senior members are absolutely dead against it at the moment – we may get there eventually.
I’m trying to get permission from the council to put a new bigger sign up on the main road….our old one is very pretty, but doesn’t say much except ‘There’s a church at the end of this lane’…..given the current sense of crisis I think we need a bit more than that
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tomsk
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# 15370
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Posted
enpart said: 'Tim – wow, there are only five churches in the whole of our Diocese that give over 100k in ministry share, and they are in major towns………maybe the dis-endowment of the CinW is still having an effect '
I think annual the cost of a clergyman totals £50K. If a group of churches pay £5K annual parish share, it would take ten of them to fund a priest, so spreading 3 over 25 churches sounds about right. That would obviously be a bit thinly spread, so there's a pressing need to develop more lay ministry. Trouble is, I guess raising the parish share and looking after the building is a burden already.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tomsk:
I think annual the cost of a clergyman totals £50K. If a group of churches pay £5K annual parish share, it would take ten of them to fund a priest, so spreading 3 over 25 churches sounds about right. That would obviously be a bit thinly spread, so there's a pressing need to develop more lay ministry. Trouble is, I guess raising the parish share and looking after the building is a burden already.
Unfortunately, studies show that a priest becomes less effective the more churches s/he has to look after. I think it would require far more than 'developing lay ministry' to turn this into something positive. It would require a whole new theology of church, not just getting lay people to take on a few more jobs.
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enpart
Apprentice
# 17272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by tomsk:
I think annual the cost of a clergyman totals £50K. If a group of churches pay £5K annual parish share, it would take ten of them to fund a priest, so spreading 3 over 25 churches sounds about right. That would obviously be a bit thinly spread, so there's a pressing need to develop more lay ministry. Trouble is, I guess raising the parish share and looking after the building is a burden already.
Unfortunately, studies show that a priest becomes less effective the more churches s/he has to look after. I think it would require far more than 'developing lay ministry' to turn this into something positive. It would require a whole new theology of church, not just getting lay people to take on a few more jobs.
Those are exactly the main concerns that I have heard voiced by our members and others.
Administrative/Ministry restructuring = Theological de-structuring (?)
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Ramarius
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# 16551
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Posted
Glamorgan University's Paul Chambers has some interesting views on this. He makes a correlation between the decline of heavy industry in Wales in the 1980s and decline in church attendance. The common link is how declining industry wrecked community cohesion (with people leaving areas) and by breaking up the social fabric of which large workforces was a part. He postulates that as workers moved from heavy industry (he cites Steel in Port Talbot) to manufacturing and service sectors, the previous homogeneity of communities was diluted. Alongside this, he points to congregations becoming insular and not embracing outsiders.
As nonconformist churches lost members in droves, Pentecostal churches grew both by conversion and transfer. He points to too many small congregations in too many buildings, unable to adapt to the new and intense social challenges of poverty and worklessness.
But it's not all doom and gloom. Chambers reckons that churches can adapt and exert the influence of the Gospel by taking up a bigger social role in local communities. Church schools remain strong and have a good reputation, whilst churches that use their buildings for multiple purposes (he cites mentoring schemes, sports activities, arts and advice services) as well as worship tend to be more successful in terms of local influence and attendance at worship. Typically these churches have an evangelical focus which has, Chambers believes, helped them become more adaptable.
Reflecting on this I am aware, from a professional interest, of the impact of poverty and deprivation in Welsh communities and the massive social shifts that have been experienced in the last 30 years. Congregations which once had an established place in the social fabric of societies have had to find new ways of serving the most essential felt needs of the communities where they are established. In every generation churches have to ask the question "Why should anyone listen to our message?" From Chambers' research I think we can learn that for communities which have suffered tremendous upheavals, before they address the question "is the message true?" they must first have a positive answer to the question "does the messenger care?"
[ 24. August 2012, 21:48: Message edited by: Ramarius ]
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Ender's Shadow
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# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
From Chambers' research I think we can learn that for communities which have suffered tremendous upheavals, before they address the question "is the message true?" they must first have a positive answer to the question "does the messenger care?"
Cute sociology, naff theology; this is the route that has led the church to establish any number of social work agencies and never actually preach the gospel. There is no evidence that the early church used it as a model*: the pattern we see there is people just 'gossiping the gospel' because their relationship with God is so central to their lives. To be honest, if a church attendance falls because of sociological factors, then that's overwhelming evidence that that church was mainly a social club... OK so I'm overstating the case for effect, but I think there's some validity there; for me, given that being a Christian is about one's own relationship with God and church attendance falls out of that, if their attendance is so loosely rooted, then there probably wasn't any reality to their faith.
* The fatuous suggestion that they healed so we should build hospitals should be disdained for the bad joke that it is.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
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Ramarius
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# 16551
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@Enders Shadow. Good challenge. In terms of the impact of social change on church attendance - maybe I need to clarify this. What you had in Port Talbot (for example) was a community knit together by a number of interweaves strands. The unifying effect of working in the same industry over a number of generations was a very strong strand here. Closing the steel works led to large numbers of people leaving the area which changed the nature of the community by breaking up longstanding relationships and families. Perhaps what I needed to draw out more clearly was the multiplicity of small congregations that characterised the church scene. Take a few strong families away and the congregation starts to become less viable.
On the social impact vis a vis Gospel preaching you're right there's a risk that the church ends up looking no different from any number of other social regeneration schemes. On the other hand, so long as the Gospel continues to be preached, I'd say that community regeneration is part and parcel of the transformational message of the kingdom. Long term unemployment has debilitating effects on personal motivation, health, levels of crime, and ambition and aspiration. Because the Gospel provides a cosmic vision if hope, it's the most powerful message anywhere to lift a community out of this cycle of introversion and despair.
I've drawn out Chambers' interests as a sociologist since that's where he's coming from. But I'm also left with the impression that the churches he mentions are finding expression of their evangelical witness rather than substituting community service for Gospel witness.
Any views from the Valleys welcome
[ 25. August 2012, 10:58: Message edited by: Ramarius ]
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I've read Paul Chambers and found him interesting. I'm not Welsh, but I have studied in South Wales, and the number of abandoned churches on one of the main roads in the town where I lived was really surprising.
As for bringing sociological reflections to bear on religious belief and practice, I think it's important, because the gospel isn't preached or lived in a vacuum. Faith shouldn't be divorced from the other pressing social issues in people's lives. When that happens, it's only a matter of time before people begin to treat it as something fairly irrelevant. Yes, it may be the case that many people's faith is weak - maybe they're going to church because that's the done thing for respectable people in their culture - but theoretically, church is an environment where people can be spiritually fed. Spiritually weak people and social climbers need to feed their souls, just like anyone else!
It's also true that many people are believers without going to church. There may be sociological reasons why church is unappealing to them, even if they want to follow Jesus. Churches need to be aware of this.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Here's a view from the Valleys, or at least someone who grew up in a Valley.
Ender's Shadow is talking bollocks again.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
The 'social gospel' and so on has been blamed for the decline of Christianity and church/chapel going in the Welsh Valleys.
I would say that the effects of the Welsh Revival of 1904/05 cut both ways - provoking something of a reaction against a kind of other-worldly pietism. I grew up in the Valleys and there were plenty of people around whose forebears had been 'put-off' or repelled by the Revival as well as plenty whose forebears had been converted and transformed by it.
The same sun that melts the wax hardens the clay.
That said, there was something very petty and pietistic about aspects of the Revival and of Welsh non-conformity in general. They took a very dim view of sports on Sundays and so on, even though these very sports were keeping people out of the pubs and giving them wholesome things to do.
A lot of the 'energy' generated (or channelled) by the Revival was channelled (or dissipated depending on your point of view) into Nationalism, social action and trades-union or Labour Party politics.
There was also a rather sinister side to it all, particularly in North Wales, where Anglicans were even cold-shouldered and forced to move from their homes in some areas. It wasn't always pretty, wasn't all the sweetness and light of popular Revivalist mythology.
Ultimately, there's only so long you can spend singing revivalist hymns at the top of your lungs. It's no wonder the revival movements ran their course. Evan Roberts was virtually a nervous wreck after 18 months. You can't keep up that level of intensity for prolonged periods and, I would argue, neither are we intended to.
There are lots of reasons for the decline of church attendance in Wales and some of the 'blame' must be assigned to the churches and chapels themselves - they were a victim of their own pietistic success and a victim of their own pietistic inability to channel it all more positively, I submit.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Darllenwr
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# 14520
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Posted
From the perspective of one living and (attempting) preaching in The Valleys, I would suggest that a large part of the 'problem' is what I would describe as a "So What?" attitude. Certainly around where I live, churches have become very set in their ways and apt to drive out the younger element because they have the temerity to suggest that there is a need for change. You have probably heard the joke about how many elderly Baptist Deacons it takes to change a light bulb ...
What we find is that the general reaction to preaching Christ crucified is, "So what?" People, or certainly the younger age groups, are simply not interested in church - as far as they are concerned, it has nothing for them. I am sure that many people will want to jump on me for this remark, but there does seem to be an attitude of entitlement - the idea that there has to be something in it for me before I will take any interest in it. Is this, I wonder, because much of our advertising today seems to be based on the premise of desert? By which I mean, "You deserve a perfect life, it's not your fault that you don't have one."
People any much younger than myself (somewhat north of 50) are not interested in what the church has to offer. In fairness, the lack of interest is largely based upon ignorance - they have never taken the trouble to find out what the church does have to offer, but "everybody knows" there's nothing in the church that I want.
Curiously enough, given that the common theory is that what young people want is 'lively' worship, with drums and bass etc, it was the Pentecostal denominations that were the first to disappear from this area. The nearest Elim chapel is now in Caerffili (10 miles away), whilst the nearest AoG is in Crumlin (7 miles). I have no idea where the nearest Apostolic is to be found. All three had their representatives in Bargoed when I arrived here in 1983. All have gone. The Methodists had to abandon both their Central Hall and their Lesser Hall when they became too few to maintain the buildings. The English Baptists have had to hand their building over to the local council to use as a library and now lease back a small part of it for their use. Even the Roman Catholics have declined - where they used to hold three Masses on a Sunday, now they have one. Of all denominations that were in Bargoed in 1983, only the Anglicans are still looking (relatively) healthy, and I wouldn't put too much money on us.
Church has become something that kindles no interest ...
Clearly preaching is not hitting the spot; if we are not to vanish from the scene competely, we had better discover what does and that right early!
E.T.A. Well, you asked for a view from the Valleys - you have only yourselves to blame.
[ 27. August 2012, 18:56: Message edited by: Darllenwr ]
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Ender's Shadow
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# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ultimately, there's only so long you can spend singing revivalist hymns at the top of your lungs. It's no wonder the revival movements ran their course.
Having spent 4 hours in a black church on Saturday where they were very noisily singing the songs of decades ago, I can assure you it can be maintained... not sure it's healthy - but it CAN be done!
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
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