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Therefore with Angels and Archangels, and with all the company of heaven, we laud and magnify Thy glorious name, evermore praising Thee, and saying: Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God of Hosts! Heaven and Earth are full of your Glory, Hosanna in the Highest! Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord, Hosanna in the Highest!

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Originally posted by Gee D:
Angels are glorious indeed. They are of a different creation to us, but are with us in the Communion of Saints, with whom we join in our songs of never-ending praise to the Creator.

.I remember Michael especially as the leader of the army of Heaven, the one who inflicted the first wound on Lucifer, reminding Lucifer that he was not of unlimited divine power, and (as Michael was lower to him in the hierarchy) humiliating him as well.

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Originally posted by Percy B:

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Originally posted by Gee D:
Angels are glorious indeed. They are of a different creation to us, but are with us in the Communion of Saints, with whom we join in our songs of never-ending praise to the Creator.

.I remember Michael especially as the leader of the army of Heaven, the one who inflicted the first wound on Lucifer, reminding Lucifer that he was not of unlimited divine power, and (as Michael was lower to him in the hierarchy) humiliating him as well.

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And with us too at the Eucharist as we join in singing with them.

If some are fallen then presumably, by classical theology, they need redemption.

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Originally posted by daronmedway:

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Originally posted by Percy B:

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Originally posted by Gee D:
Angels are glorious indeed. They are of a different creation to us, but are with us in the Communion of Saints, with whom we join in our songs of never-ending praise to the Creator.

.I remember Michael especially as the leader of the army of Heaven, the one who inflicted the first wound on Lucifer, reminding Lucifer that he was not of unlimited divine power, and (as Michael was lower to him in the hierarchy) humiliating him as well.

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And with us too at the Eucharist as we join in singing with them.

If some are fallen then presumably, by classical theology, they need redemption.

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So thought Origen. Although the writer of John's Apocalypse seems to think differently: chains, lake of fire and all that.

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Originally posted by Freddy:
Just want to note that many see angels as nothing more than the inhabitants of heaven, and that everyone who dies and goes to heaven becomes an angel.

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Originally posted by Freddy:
... everyone who dies and goes to heaven becomes an angel.

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Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:

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Originally posted by Freddy:
... everyone who dies and goes to heaven becomes an angel.

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Possibly according to the New Church. Certainly not traditional Christian theology.

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Freddy, my dear chap, this happens every time angels come up. The idea that everyone becomes an angel is a belief in your church - absolutely fine, no question about it - but it is not "common Christian belief". Most Christians have never heard of the idea, I'm afraid.

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Originally posted by Freddy:

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Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:

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Originally posted by Freddy:
... everyone who dies and goes to heaven becomes an angel.

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Possibly according to the New Church. Certainly not traditional Christian theology.

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Yet it's a common Christian belief.

The Bible is actually pretty vague about what angels are. The word simply means "messenger."

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So, God sends dead people to give messages to people?

Gabriel is a deceased man, the angels at the tomb were once people who lived 'who-knows-where?' on earth? Michael the archangel - was he a dead person once? 'Dead people' with wings are going to usher other dead people into hell? And all because angels are 'messengers' who once were living people?

Hmmm, I don't think you've thought this one through Freddy. Maybe you've watched "It's a wonderful Life" a few times too many!

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Gabriel is a deceased man, the angels at the tomb were once people who lived 'who-knows-where?' on earth? Michael the archangel - was he a dead person once? 'Dead people' with wings are going to usher other dead people into hell? And all because angels are 'messengers' who once were living people?

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Hmmm, I don't think you've thought this one through Freddy. Maybe you've watched "It's a wonderful Life" a few times too many!

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Originally posted by daronmedway:

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Originally posted by Percy B:
If some are fallen then presumably, by classical theology, they need redemption.

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So thought Origen. Although the writer of John's Apocalypse seems to think differently: chains, lake of fire and all that.

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Originally posted by Jahlove:
For instance, Chesed (the Fourth Sephirah), has the Virtue of Obedience

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Originally posted by Freddy:

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Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:

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Originally posted by Freddy:
... everyone who dies and goes to heaven becomes an angel.

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Possibly according to the New Church. Certainly not traditional Christian theology.

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Yet it's a common Christian belief.

The Bible is actually pretty vague about what angels are. The word simply means "messenger."

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Originally posted by churchgeek:
Now, I don't know exactly how Swedenborgians understand the idea of people becoming angels, but I could see it working like this: Our current reality and what we think of as the "heavenly" reality have many points of contact, and sometimes people become aware of that contact. If people who have died are still on their spiritual journey, some will be serving God and others will be interested in causing problems whenever they can. People who experience them in our realm, then, might come up with ideas and terms like ghosts, poltergeists, angels, and demons to describe the phenomena they experience. (NB I'm not claiming to believe this - I'm agnostic about it all.)

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Originally posted by churchgeek:
But I don't think mocking Freddy's point ("ha ha, that just seems ridiculous to me, clearly you haven't thought it through") is really justified. Mudfrog, is it because you think of passing on a message from God as demeaning (being just the errand boy)? Or is it that you see it as too noble for a human being to do? It would help if you would explain why this strikes you as such a patently silly idea, because clearly it doesn't seem so to everyone.

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Luke 16:19-31
New International Version (NIV)
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

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Luke 16:19-31
New International Version (NIV)
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I apologise to Freddy for mocking him.
It's easy to rattle of a post without being considerate.

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
My dismissal of the idea of dead people being angels had more to do with the messenger aspect than the fact that angels may or may not be departed saints.

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Anyway, I wonder how Freddy would deal with this passage:

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
So when is an angel not an angel? And what is it if it isn't an angel? Is an angel a job (messenger) or a state of being, a created spirit?

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Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
What these entities and encounters were, if not hallucinatory, I have no idea. What the longterm effects I would not wish to postulate. That is possibly why I tend to leave discussions of angels, here or elsewhere, well and truly alone.

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Originally posted by Nicolemr:
The idea that angels are people who have died and gone to heaven is pretty common in pop culture I'd say. I see references to it all the time, from children's books and cartoons to movies (lie someone mentioned, Clarence the angel in It's a Wonderful Life, and the legend that is mentioned in it, that every time you hear a bell an angel gets his wings) to TV shows like Touched by an Angel. You can say it's wrong, you can say it's unbiblical, but you can't say the belief doesn't exist.

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
What always interests me is the depiction of angels (including seraphim and cherubim) in popular culture. Nothing like the descriptions we have in the OT, though the NT does seem to suggest the possibility of angels being mistaken for people at least some of the time. But it was always noteworthy to me that the first thing angels tend to say is "Don't be afraid," from which I infer that there's something there to be afraid of.

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Genesis 18 Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground.

Genesis 19 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground.

Genesis 32:24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day.

Joshua 5:13 When Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?” So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”

Judges 6:11 Now the Angel of the Lord came and sat under the terebinth tree which was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while his son Gideon threshed wheat in the winepress, in order to hide it from the Midianites. 12 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him, and said to him, “The Lord is with you, you mighty man of valor!”
13 Gideon said to Him, “O my lord, if the Lord is with us, why then has all this happened to us? And where are all His miracles which our fathers told us about, saying, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up from Egypt?’ But now the Lord has forsaken us and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.”

Judges 13:3 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to the woman and said to her, “Indeed now, you are barren and have borne no children, but you shall conceive and bear a son…6 So the woman came and told her husband, saying, “A Man of God came to me, and His countenance was like the countenance of the Angel of God, very awesome; but I did not ask Him where He was from, and He did not tell me His name…(Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the LORD.)

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Hebrews 13:2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels.

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Matthew 28:5 But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.

Luke 1:13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.

Luke 1:30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

Luke 2:10 Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people

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Matthew 28:10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me.”

Mark 6:50 for they all saw Him and were troubled. But immediately He talked with them and said to them, “Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid.”

John 6:20 But Jesus said to them, “It is I; do not be afraid.”

Matthew 14:27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid.”

Acts 18:9 Now the Lord spoke to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid, but speak, and do not keep silent;

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.

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Originally posted by Freddy:
It's actually in the OT that angels are frequently mistaken for ordinary people. . . .


Paul comments on the incident in Genesis 18:

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Hebrews 13:2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels.

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So Paul clearly thinks that angels can appear as normal people.

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I was thinking more of things like Isaiah's vision,

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Just to remind you that the Angel of the Lord - and one of the three angels who visited Abraham - are actually God himself. - not a dead person at all.

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Originally posted by Freddy:

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Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
What these entities and encounters were, if not hallucinatory, I have no idea. What the longterm effects I would not wish to postulate. That is possibly why I tend to leave discussions of angels, here or elsewhere, well and truly alone.

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By contrast, my denomination has detailed teachings about every aspect of this topic. I teach frequently about them, and the people I teach seem to accept every detail as reliable information.

So it is interesting to me to discuss this outside my denomination, where people do not have these ideas, and to read what people think and believe.

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Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
Interesting you left out the first part of my post.

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The traditional Christian teaching, as exemplified in the Bible, is that angels are, as you say Freddy "a class of spiritual being".

There was and possibly still is a New Age fascination with "angels"; "angelic visitation" and "channeling angels" a few years ago unconnected with any traditional religious context.

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Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
Obviously you see this as a potential forum to spread your ideas.

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Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
Like all ideas which people attempt to spread via these threads I think it is a case of caveat emptor (buyer beware).

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Agreed. We all know what kind of people frequent these places.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
Caution is not to be confuted with paranoia, Freddy.

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