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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The notion of 'revival'
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
1. What, exactly, do people want revived when they pray for, or sing their little ditties about, 'send revival', 'revival in our land', etc.?
2. Why should/shouldn't people pray/sing about it, rather than just pray for God's will?
It's just another one of those charismatic-evangelical things things that has appeared in CofE churches in the last 15 years or so (at least, that's when I noticed it).
K.
[ 01. October 2012, 10:53: Message edited by: Komensky ]
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
1. What, exactly, do people want revived when they pray for, or sing their little ditties about, 'send revival', 'revival in our land', etc.?
2. Why should/shouldn't people pray/sing about it, rather than just pray for God's will?
It's just another one of those charismatic-evangelical things things that has appeared in CofE churches in the last 15 years or so (at least, that's when I noticed it).
K.
It's been going on for years. Part of my disillusionment with the whole movement came from the way that there'd be talk of how, whatever it was, it was just around the corner, and people would have "pictures" implying it was about to burst on us, and how God was preparing his people for it, and how He was going to do a New Thing, and everything carried on as normal.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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the long ranger
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# 17109
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Posted
Welsh style roof-raising, maybe?
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
1. What, exactly, do people want revived when they pray for, or sing their little ditties about, 'send revival', 'revival in our land', etc.?
What are the criteria for "little ditties"?
How do they differ from songs and hymns?
quote:
2. Why should/shouldn't people pray/sing about it, rather than just pray for God's will?
Perhaps some people think, with good reason, that revival is manifestly God's will.
quote:
It's just another one of those charismatic-evangelical things things that has appeared in CofE churches in the last 15 years or so (at least, that's when I noticed it).
If you had more than the merest nodding acquaintance with Church History you would be aware that it is a tradition stretching back to the early eighteenth century at least.
[ 01. October 2012, 11:10: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
1. What, exactly, do people want revived when they pray for, or sing their little ditties about, 'send revival', 'revival in our land', etc.?
Usually, a great turning to God, but often with an unthinking subtext, 'like the great revivals of the past', Wales 1904, Lewis 1949. There hasn't been one since. quote:
2. Why should/shouldn't people pray/sing about it, rather than just pray for God's will?
Just praying for God's will sounds a bit vague. Not praying that there should be a great turning to God is a bit indefensible unless one is a very extreme Calvinist. quote:
It's just another one of those charismatic-evangelical things things that has appeared in CofE churches in the last 15 years or so (at least, that's when I noticed it).
Is it? Why do you say that? I don't think it's quite as recent or as exclusively charismatic-evangelical as that.
If one looks further back over history, there seem to have been other times when the tide has been out, as it feels as it is now, and then when it has swept in. The second half of the eighteenth century saw something that looks like a revival in Britain. Something similar seems to have happened on the continent in the era of the early Franciscans.
Looking around, one has to be almost denying one's faith not to conclude that we desperately need a great turning to God. I suspect though, that when it happens, it won't look all that like the great revivals of the past. I also suspect that trying to bring one on by copying the externals of the great revivals of the past and somehow thinking God will reward that might be missing the point.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Some atheists look forward to the final death of religion. They're dissatisfied with the number of people who believe (or rather don't) as they do (or rather don't). It looks a bit like the flip-side of the belief that revival is just round the corner and there'll be lots of conversions - how much of this is driven by dissatisfaction with the number of people who believe as we do?
Just a kite I'm flying.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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hatless
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# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Some atheists look forward to the final death of religion.
I'm getting a picture of a slowly deflating bouncy castle. The people on it stop bouncing. They are no longer leaping around and crashing into each other. They look alarmed as it lowers gently them to the ground. "What's gone wrong?" they ask. Then they step onto the grass. They look disappointed. One or two of them try bouncing on the grass, but it doesn't make them happy. Then some of them sit down. They start talking to each other. Someone picks a daisy. A child finds a beetle. It's quiet without the blower, and you can hear birdsong from the trees. Someone opens a hamper. A wine cork pops.
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My crazy theology in novel form
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's been going on for years. Part of my disillusionment with the whole movement came from the way that there'd be talk of how, whatever it was, it was just around the corner, and people would have "pictures" implying it was about to burst on us, and how God was preparing his people for it, and how He was going to do a New Thing, and everything carried on as normal.
FWIW I remember that one of those sermons was the final straw that turned me away from charismatic fundamentalism. Which with hindsight is a bit irrational in that the movement produces plenty of worse things to object to.
I take Enoch's general point that if we think Christianity is a Good Thing then we should indeed hope that lots of people become Christians. I think the problem is that there is a whole theology of revival that doesn't seem to have any counterpart in Scripture - including the notion that Pentecost somehow failed and that we need a 'fresh outpouring' of God's spirit. (Which, although it is Biblical language, comes hand-in-hand with an idea that the Holy Spirit is a kind of force or power that you can be plugged into rather than a Person.)
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
I do have some grasp of Church history, though for me the eighteenth century is a recent part. I've heard of the Wales example, but what was 'renewed'? This hasn't been answered. Was it a flash in the pan or did it endure?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think the problem is that there is a whole theology of revival that doesn't seem to have any counterpart in Scripture - including the notion that Pentecost somehow failed and that we need a 'fresh outpouring' of God's spirit.
There's a song (is it called 'Send the Fire'?) which contains the line 'We need another Pentecost'. I understand what the author was getting at, but doesn't it carry an awful, theologically way off beam implication? As if the first time God sent the Holy Spirit wasn't enough so we need him to do it again.
IMO it'd be fantastic if many people came to faith in Christ, or to a fresh sense of his presence with them, but I think what's often missing from talk of revival is a renewed desire to be obedient to God. From what I've read about various so-called revivals in the past (like the Wales and Lewes ones from the last hundred years, and also others from longer ago), there's always a small group of people who really get into praying and obeying God more closely, then passing that on to others in an expanding circle of influence.
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Lothiriel
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# 15561
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Posted
They may be thinking as well of the Great Awakening in North America. This article describes several other periods of revival, such as Le Réviel in Europe in the 18th century.
The notion of revival seems to be well-entrenched in evangelical Protestantism -- in my evangelical days I was quite accustomed to hearing prayers that a new revival might begin -- and this was in a church at the liberal end of evangelicalism.
I suppose it could be argued that the Protestant Reformation itself was a revival of sorts.
[edited for early morning inability to write grammatically]
[ 01. October 2012, 12:17: Message edited by: Lothiriel ]
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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I do have some grasp of Church history, though for me the eighteenth century is a recent part. I've heard of the Wales example, but what was 'renewed'? This hasn't been answered. Was it a flash in the pan or did it endure?
K.
What is prayed for is a twofold experience - 1) that the life of the church would be renewed in prayer and devotion to Christ and 2) that people would be converted and become Christians.
What has often been seen in the revival of the church is the removal of community vices - drunkenness, poverty, family breakdown, etc.
Revivals always last for a short time but their influence and effect is lasting and is seen in the maturing of the newly converted into lifelong members of the church and the community.
The Welsh revival's effects were seriously curtailed, I guess, by the numbers of the young men who were converted in 1904 being marched off to the trenches in the Great War.
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713
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Posted
Our little shack is quite Charismatic/Evamgelical in tone, a fair number of people do go on about 'Revival' and some songs reflect that. That said, as many take the view that the Holy Spirit won't do it on His own, so people had better get out of the building and do more than wishful thinking of a Sunday morning, which some of it does appear to be.
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think the problem is that there is a whole theology of revival that doesn't seem to have any counterpart in Scripture - including the notion that Pentecost somehow failed and that we need a 'fresh outpouring' of God's spirit.
There's a song (is it called 'Send the Fire'?) which contains the line 'We need another Pentecost'. I understand what the author was getting at, but doesn't it carry an awful, theologically way off beam implication? As if the first time God sent the Holy Spirit wasn't enough so we need him to do it again.
IMO it'd be fantastic if many people came to faith in Christ, or to a fresh sense of his presence with them, but I think what's often missing from talk of revival is a renewed desire to be obedient to God. From what I've read about various so-called revivals in the past (like the Wales and Lewes ones from the last hundred years, and also others from longer ago), there's always a small group of people who really get into praying and obeying God more closely, then passing that on to others in an expanding circle of influence.
The song is
This One and was written by the Salvation army's Founder Rev (General) William Booth.
the original line was 'We want another Pentecost' but in this, the Updated Version thaty line was changed to 'We need another Pentecost.'
The thought behind this is that we need a fresh infilling, a new experience of the Holy Spirit. This is precedented in Scripture of course in an episode, subsequent to Pentecost, often called
The Little Pentecost
Some people, including some Salvationists it has to be said, have questioned the idea that the Holy Spirit can be given again for the reason that he was given to the church and is already here. I don't subscribe to that idea because the Church does not 'possess' the Spirit, it doesn't not keep it and then pass it on to it's members. The Holy Spirit moves as and where he wills and it is my understanding - along with that of the Apostles HERE that the Spirit comes again and again and didn't come 'once and for all' on the Day of Pentecost.
So, can we (need we) sing 'We want/need another Pentecost? Well, judging by the lifelessness of much of western Christianity, you bet we do!
Send the Fire!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
I see that we've already drifted into another problem. Rather than The Holy Spirit as part of the Trinity, the persion is seen as an 'it' and considered a magic power sent to us. I'm so sick of this; the idea that one person of the Trinity is a 'power' that we somehow 'get'. I got this same malarkey on Sunday ('send us power!', etc.).
Depressed by it all,
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
I think you misunderstand.
The Holy Spirit is never an 'it' and we affirm and gladly celebrate the unity of the Spirit with the Father and Son.
But the Scripture, indeed Jesus himself, does speak of the Spirit being 'sent' and on him 'falling upon' people and 'filling them.
When we speak of 'the fire' or 'the power' we are speaking of the effect that He has upon us - Jesus did say, of course, you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you.
There is nothing wrong - indeed it's very right to do so - with allowing the Holy Spirit free reign independently, as a person, from the Father and Son; all three or course being one in essence etc, but having differing roles.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
That said, as many take the view that the Holy Spirit won't do it on His own, so people had better get out of the building and do more than wishful thinking of a Sunday morning, which some of it does appear to be.
Exactly my view; God's chosen way of working seems to be, in the main at least, through his followers as we do what he asks.
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The thought behind this [we want / need another Pentecost] is that we need a fresh infilling, a new experience of the Holy Spirit. This is precedented in Scripture of course in an episode, subsequent to Pentecost, often called The Little Pentecost...
The Holy Spirit moves as and where he wills and it is my understanding - along with that of the Apostles HERE that the Spirit comes again and again and didn't come 'once and for all' on the Day of Pentecost.
Yeah but... ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I'm with you completely on the concept of people needing a fresh infilling or experience of the Holy Spirit. But to call it another or a little Pentecost - I think that detracts from the sense in which the first Pentecost marked a transformation of how God interacts with humanity. 'In that day I will pour out my Spirit on all people'.
Maybe I'm getting overly hung up on the precise language - it wouldn't be the first time! - but if we think Pentecost marked something unique, something new, then I think we should recognise that in the words we use. So 'fresh outpouring', 'fresh infilling' or whatever is fine, but I think I'd rather avoid 'another Pentecost'.
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
Yes, I think you are getting hung up on the language. In fact you are narrowing the meaning of the Biblical language too much. You are suggesting that the Holy Spiorit could only be poured out on the very day of Pentecost in AD33. Can I ask then, how does he get to me? Who gives him to me?
The too-narrow lannguage stems from your misquote about 'on that day I will pour my Spirit on all people' - apart from the fact that not 'all people' were there on that day, and allowing for the fact that in the passages I linked to, the HS was poured out either again or for the first time on days after the day of Pentecost, I would want to quote correctly what the prophecy said:
"In the last days, God says, I will pour oput my Spirit on all people..."
The Last Days are not a couple of days at Pentecost bank holiday weekend the year Jesus died.
The Last Days are now. We've been in the Last Days since the resurrection!
And it's during these Last Days that the Spirit is available to all people - and all of us have our own personal, direct and living experience of the Holy Spirit that is not dependent upon or sourced from the first Day of Pentecost when the Apostles were filled.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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daronmedway
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# 3012
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Posted
There is good scriptural precedent for the idea that the Holy Spirit is personally responsible for the empowerment of the various charismata, ecclesial offices and activities which he distributes to Christian people as he chooses.
It is also very possible for the church to have outward appearance of these gifts, services and activities without them being true manifestations of the Holy Spirit's empowering presence. They can be counterfeited.
Revival, as I understand it, is when the Holy Spirit empowers the gifts, ministries and activities of the church is an especially effective way thereby resulting in renewed devotion to Christ, new zeal in evangelism and an increase in conversions to Christ.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
"In the last days, God says, I will pour oput my Spirit on all people..."
The Last Days are not a couple of days at Pentecost bank holiday weekend the year Jesus died.
The Last Days are now. We've been in the Last Days since the resurrection!
Apologies for the misquote, and also for not explaining myself clearly. I agree with your understanding of the Last Days but what I meant was that Pentecost marked the start of those days, a new era in which God will pour out his Holy Spirit on all people. If Pentecost marked the start of the new era, we don't need another Pentecost, right?
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Ramarius
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# 16551
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Posted
I agree with Mudfrog. If you chart the history of Israel you see cycles of apostasy and turning back to Yahweh - that's a kind of revival mirrored in the life of the church (the new community of faith). Revival outside the church is large numbers of people from various people groups turning to Christ in repentance and faith. I think that's a fairly standard definition, and as a working definition probably what most people I know would have in mind when they hear the words.
As for a "coming revival" I think we might be better off thinking of a "coming here" revival. There is massive church growth in S America parts of Africa, China and Korea. Even in the UK there are examples of large and growing churches, mainly in cities. Committed church attendance in N Ireland also remains strong despite all the political changes.
What a revival in the UK would like like is an interesting question.....
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
"In the last days, God says, I will pour oput my Spirit on all people..."
The Last Days are not a couple of days at Pentecost bank holiday weekend the year Jesus died.
The Last Days are now. We've been in the Last Days since the resurrection!
Apologies for the misquote, and also for not explaining myself clearly. I agree with your understanding of the Last Days but what I meant was that Pentecost marked the start of those days, a new era in which God will pour out his Holy Spirit on all people. If Pentecost marked the start of the new era, we don't need another Pentecost, right?
I agree that Pentecost did indeed mark a new dispensation - I am a dispensationalist after all ![[Biased]](wink.gif) - Jesus had said of the Spirit that he lives with you with you and will be in you.
I agree that from that Day on, the Spirit was to be/was being poured out on all flesh.
And that beginning cannot be repeated. You can't have 'January 1st' twice in a year
But we need to look at the context of the song - and it's only a song:
'We want another Pentecost' is in a prayer for a revived experience of the Holy Spirit in the lives of Christ's people.
On the AD33 event the Spirit came with power, with a miracle of communication, with converting power as thousands came to know salvation in the name of Jesus.
It isn't a first descent of the Spirit, a new dispensation, that Booth was calling for in his song, it was a renewed occurrence of the power in the lives of the believers that he wanted. Power to be bold in wi
tness, power to be holy, power to see thousands brought into the Kingdom.
I cannot read these verses without feeling they should be turned into another verse of Booth's hymn, with the refrain, 'Send the Fire!' the answer to that prayer being this next sentence
Pentecost as a day of beginnings and a changhe in how God deals with people, a new dispensation indeed - no of course that is unrepeatable. But to pray for another Pentecost simply with a desire to see great a wonderful things done under the power of the Spirit - as of course we see repeated in Acts 4 - that that is an entirely different matter and wholly in keeping with Scripture and the experience of the church as revivals have come to it.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
"In the last days, God says, I will pour oput my Spirit on all people..."
The Last Days are not a couple of days at Pentecost bank holiday weekend the year Jesus died.
The Last Days are now. We've been in the Last Days since the resurrection!
Apologies for the misquote, and also for not explaining myself clearly. I agree with your understanding of the Last Days but what I meant was that Pentecost marked the start of those days, a new era in which God will pour out his Holy Spirit on all people. If Pentecost marked the start of the new era, we don't need another Pentecost, right?
Well, it depends on how you see Pentecost doesn't it? If you see Pentecost as a once and for all time universal endowment of the Holy Spirit on the church, then I guess you'd think not. If, on the other hand, you see Pentecost as an event some aspects of which are unique and some aspects of which are repeatable (as I think we can see in the book of Acts) then I guess you'd think yes.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
The question still remains as to whether the Holy Spirit was (only) given at Pentecost - to 'the church', it seems - or whether he can come subsequently to individuals as a personal experience.
I guess there would be those who would say that this 3rd person of the Trinity has been given to 'the church' and it is therefore in the gift of said 'Church' to dispense 'the Lord and Giver of Life' through its Princes whenever they confirm a youth who kneels before themn in a local parish church.
I cannot see how the church can possess and then transmit the Spirit who, in the time of Jesus, but evidently no longer, used to blow wherever it pleases.'
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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daronmedway
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# 3012
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Posted
I tend to look at it from another angle. The Church proper is comprised only of people who have been baptised, by Jesus, in the Holy Spirit.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I tend to look at it from another angle. The Church proper is comprised only of people who have been baptised, by Jesus, in the Holy Spirit.
I entirely agree with you - we have all been baptised by the one Spirit into the one Body.
But, as the disciples discovered, they could experience the power of that Spirit in Acts 2 and then have a subsequent, similar experience in Acts 4
And as Paul suggests, we need to keep on beinjg filled. I know, as do you, that there are times when, for whatever reason, my vital experience of the Spirit wanes and I need to experience a fresh infilling, a personal pentecostal-type enduement for power, purity and and witness.
One of the greatest untruths foisted upon the church is to believe that it has an experience that it has never received. To presume an experience of the Holy Spirit just because others have that experience is likely to prevent one from having a vital experience in the first place. Once we stop seeking we stop finding.
Oh dear, this has turned into a rather bad homily...sorry ![[Frown]](frown.gif) ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Also, I'm inclined to think that "the wind blowing wherever it pleases" isn't actually a reference to the person of the Holy Spirit. I think it's a reference to Spirit filled people. People do not know where Spirit filled people are "coming from". quote:
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8 ESV)
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Also, I'm inclined to think that "the wind blowing wherever it pleases" isn't actually a reference to the person of the Holy Spirit. I think it's a reference to Spirit filled people. People do not know where Spirit filled people are "coming from". quote:
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8 ESV)
It's a play on words surely - wind/spirit?
So it is with everyone born of the Spirit - i.e. we don't understand how the new birth comes to everyone, it's like the wind blowing where it wants; the Spirit 'does his own thing'.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Mudfrog: quote:
Revivals always last for a short time but their influence and effect is lasting and is seen in the maturing of the newly converted into lifelong members of the church and the community.
And eventually there is a whole new crop converted or born into Christianity who could use the focused attention a Revival gives to the faith. The Church is close to 2,000 years old, but its current adherents are mostly under 100 and some might be kind of muzzy on the details and the personal umph.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Mudfrog: quote:
Revivals always last for a short time but their influence and effect is lasting and is seen in the maturing of the newly converted into lifelong members of the church and the community.
And eventually there is a whole new crop converted or born into Christianity who could use the focused attention a Revival gives to the faith. The Church is close to 2,000 years old, but its current adherents are mostly under 100 and some might be kind of muzzy on the details and the personal umph.
Indeed - we could sure use a revival right now
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Indeed - we could sure use a revival right now
I think that at the end of the day, this is exactly the sort of attitude that Komensky finds upsetting, and it runs in direct contradiction to that verse about the wind blowing where it listeth.
Revivals are not to use. Attempting to use a sovereign move of God? He's not a tame lion you know. That is not revival but revivalism. It's more like the prophets of Baal dancing round the altar than anything else.
Besides, even authentic revivals are not the panacea revivalists hope for. They can be a right pain in the neck. Read Jonathan Edwards or Wesley on the Great Awakening - and not just the bits revivalists quote. At the end of the day and taking the long view, they are not a better environment for the Church, just different.
I live where (arguably) one of the last great evangelical revivals in Western Europe started in the early 1960s: the gypsy revival, which subsequently spread worldwide, started a few miles from my house. Hard to believe here in secular France but there you have it. It had an undeniable effect and has spread worldwide. But its effect a couple of generations down the line is mixed. (Should I be happy that most of the inmates at my prison chapel services are gypsies?).
And Ramarius - the revival that's coming here? The problem I see with many of these fast-growing churches is that they are resolutely modernist in their culture (an insight for which I'm indebted to the book by former Economist editor Bill Emmott and some other guy called "God is Back"). It's great to have them, but how much can they say to a culture which is increasingly post-modern?
Finally, hatless, that was priceless. More Lord!
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
And Ramarius - the revival that's coming here? The problem I see with many of these fast-growing churches is that they are resolutely modernist in their culture (an insight for which I'm indebted to the book by former Economist editor Bill Emmott and some other guy called "God is Back"). It's great to have them, but how much can they say to a culture which is increasingly post-modern?
Ah, I read something about this point literally yesterday - here it is. The guy's coming from a particular angle (organic, simple churches are the way forward) but putting that to one side, he makes exactly the point Eutychus has just raised about much of organised Christianity being modernist in feel, but trying to operate in an increasingly post-modern environment. Here's a snippet:
quote:
I was asked to answer a simple set of questions for the Evangelical churches in Spain: why, since we have such a lovely Gospel, are Spaniards rejecting us?...
...here’s what my helpers and I came up with. Evangelicalism is an expression of Christianity that reflects the Enlightenment worldview. Spaniards skipped the Enlightenment. They went straight from the Ancient worldview[1] to postmodernism. That happened from the 1970’s to the 1990’s. Evangelicalism (and Liberalism, Pentecostalism, etc. etc.) expressed itself culturally in Enlightenment ways. That didn’t work for people with an Ancient worldview or a postmodern worldview. We weren’t speaking to them in their cultural language so the way we expressed ourselves sounded like static on the radio to them.
That’s fine for Spain but here’s the thing…the entire Western world is already postmodern. That includes the United States and Europe. You can hate postmodernism, complain about it, fight it, refuse to participate, do what you want, but in doing so you will choose not to communicate with postmoderns.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
I have no problem with charismatic evangelicals praying for revival, and I hope their prayer is answered - but it may not happen the way they expect it to.
Christian people have prayed for revival (and should do) long before there was any such thing as the charismatic movement, or even Protestantism.
I take a broad view - it simply means people turning back to God in Christ, never mind the hows, whys and wherefores.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I have no problem with charismatic evangelicals praying for revival, and I hope their prayer is answered - but it may not happen the way they expect it to.
That's like the Jews praying for the Messiah, and not recognising Him when He came. It won't just be the charismatic evangelicals who have difficulty recognising "revival".
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
here it is. The guy's coming from a particular angle (organic, simple churches are the way forward)
He apparently thinks that organic church means a load of youngish middle class professionals sitting round eating cookies with Bibles on their laps. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
To my mind this picture could come from just about any church housegroup under the sun since about 1975 and there is absolutely nothing postmodern about it. (And besides, nobody in the next generation will be carting treeware around: they are more likely to be browsing their Bible on their iPad or smartphone).
I wish the church would stop studying the surrounding culture and trying to mimic it (usually about 20 years late) and simply start to live in it.
[ 02. October 2012, 07:36: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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the long ranger
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# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
]He apparently thinks that organic church means a load of youngish middle class professionals sitting round eating cookies with Bibles on their laps.
To my mind this picture could come from just about any church housegroup under the sun since about 1975 and there is absolutely nothing postmodern about it. (And besides, nobody in the next generation will be carting treeware around: they are more likely to be browsing their Bible on their iPad or smartphone).
I wish the church would stop studying the surrounding culture and trying to mimic it (usually about 20 years late) and simply start to live in it.
I've not been to an organic church nor a housechurch. But it strikes me that housechurches were not set up on post-modern principles. I imagine those set up in the 1970s were churches (with fixed theologies, leadership structures and so on) but without buildings. Am I wrong about that?
Postmodernism would suggest groups which held less strongly to those things, which might suggest that they're a different thing. Those groups I've heard of sound like places where the questions are more interesting than the answers and that are less concerned about passing on 'correct' theology and practice.
I'd welcome correction from the more knowledgeable.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I like to think that I help run a church that is quite postmodern, but that we have achieved this by accident rather than design - and that this is the only way it can be done.
I'm very sceptical of calculated plans to set up an 'organic' or 'post-modern' church. The result tends to be fancy dress rather than DNA.
But I apologise for derailing the thread. It's probably a whole different topic from revival.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
Two quick things. The clip about the evangelical movement in Spain being rejected: 'Evangelicalism is an expression of Christianity that reflects the Enlightenment worldview.' Seriously? The magic-loving, anti-intellectual, hocus-pocus evangelicals are reflecting the Enlightenment worldview? I think 'rejects', rather than 'reflects', must have been the word intended.
Eutychus hit the nail on the head about the charo-evo churches mimicking the world. But I would go one step further. The world they mimic (and really adore and love) is pop culture; and all the banality and 'whatever' attitude that comes with it.
Last Sunday I attended a popular evangelical C of E church here in Canterbury and heard just about every heresy and medieval biblical error you could hope to avoid (with some homophobia thrown in for good measure). This is absolutely par for the course with evangelicals, even in the C of E. Needless to say there were prayers for 'revival' during what they told us were intercessory prayers (which was really some woman's right-wing theological muddle). The 'revival' that got everyone so excited was the idea that schools and government would be filled with evangelical Christians (and this woman then gave God 'permission' to 'get some people out of the way' for this to happen). I say 'God', but the prayers were such a modalistic muddle that it was hard to tell to whom she was really praying. I don't see that 'dream' as a 'revival', as the scenario for which they so fervently prayed has never existed before. I raised a few questions with friends there about the theology of these prayers: "oh, whatever".
Keeping to the OP, this sort of desire for 'revival' is all part of the modern charo-evo paradigm, rather than the general desire (that several have written about so well in this thread) that God's kingdom flourishes as he wants.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm very sceptical of calculated plans to set up an 'organic' or 'post-modern' church. The result tends to be fancy dress rather than DNA.
How do you plan an organic church? Isn't that equivalent to 'and now we shall have a spontaneous burst of applause'?
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I quite liked the lines
"Send revival
Start with me".
Repentance seems to come first.
One of my favourite comments on revival came from a South American evangelist, who had seen rapid church growth in his neck of the woods.
"Revival is an evangelist's dream and a pastor's nightmare!"
I think revival is often taken to mean a rapid increase in the numbers of folks drawn to believe and worship together. All such thoughts probably need to be weighed against the parable of the sower. Some seed falls on stony ground, some does start to grow, but short roots mean that the growth in short lived. Some growth lasts and flourishes.
Where you get a lot of "short-rooted" growth, it may look good for a while. Perhaps it's easy see that as revival, particularly if one is desperately looking for some signs of God at work?
But "all that glitters ..."
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
here it is. The guy's coming from a particular angle (organic, simple churches are the way forward)
He apparently thinks that organic church means a load of youngish middle class professionals sitting round eating cookies with Bibles on their laps.
To my mind this picture could come from just about any church housegroup under the sun since about 1975 and there is absolutely nothing postmodern about it. (And besides, nobody in the next generation will be carting treeware around: they are more likely to be browsing their Bible on their iPad or smartphone).
I wish the church would stop studying the surrounding culture and trying to mimic it (usually about 20 years late) and simply start to live in it.
Surely not? How do you put highlighter pen and post it note bookmarks in an electronic one?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
I'd suggest that the vast majority of people who join religious movements on the back of revivals (in the form we're discussing here) have a short religious lifespan. When something is built on emotionalism, the minute it reduces, people lose interest.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm very sceptical of calculated plans to set up an 'organic' or 'post-modern' church. The result tends to be fancy dress rather than DNA.
How do you plan an organic church? Isn't that equivalent to 'and now we shall have a spontaneous burst of applause'?
My point exactly.
At the risk of getting all prophetic here, I recently did some work on green walls (walls with lots of plants on them). A botanist explained that many of these green walls fade quickly because they are installed using plants grown in ideal conditions in a nursery. These look very nice at first but quickly wither because of the relatively harsh environment they are placed in.
His solution was to examine what sort of plants thrived on industrial brownfield sites. He then took a load of the relevant seeds and put them in the greenwall substrate. Some thrive, others don't. You can't plan how your greenwall will look, and it might not be so nice at first, but you have a much better chance of it lasting long term.
I think there's a metaphor for successful, culturally integrated church planting in there somewhere. Nursery-grown models just won't do it.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
Just a couple of thoughts that somehow fit in to this idea of a modern church trying to speak to a post-modern culture.
It seems that the nineteenth and early twentieth century church was very much at the heart of the community - it entertained them as well as provided for expression of religious fervour and faith. It was not unusual for people to be at church in the evenings for social gatherings and fellowships and to find there all they needed.
That is so not the case today.
Secondly, the church provided something to belong to, to join, to be committed to, to be loyal to. From my observation, even among young Christians, people in today's society don't want to belong, they don't want to join up[, commit, sign up or be loyal to something - football being the only exception! Political parties, pop music fan clubs, local women's guilds, the Freeemasons and even libraries find it difficult to recruit new members - no one wants to join committees or commit to making the tea anymore.
That seriously impacts on church activities or all kinds.
And finally - when I look at the Salvation Army song book, apart from all the church hymns we have included - Anglican, Catholic and Methodist (lots olf Wesley!) - there are a lot of nineteenth century revivalist hymns, lots of songs about 'coming to Jesus', praying for forgiveness, asking for holiness and freedom from sin and death.
Is it this message that the postmodern world is deaf and blind to? Is it that we no longer worry about personal sin - what was a sin yesterday, today is personal choice, lifestyle choice, and has no bearing on our souls. Bad language, sexual desire, and so much else, is no longer a sin; and if it is 'wrong' our behaviour is a merely a 'weakness', a 'mistake', 'the way we were brought up', 'caused by the recession/unemployment social inequality', etc, etc. There is no (or very little) personal acceptance of our own sin.
Does this make the message of repentance, forgiveness, salvation and purity of heart (sanctification) a total irrelevance to the post modern world?
Why are we talking of a saviour to a world that doesn't believe it is sinning?
My only answer is this:
Before the Methodist revivals under Wesley, eighteenth century England was much the same - the bahvahiour of 'ordinary people' was a sinful and godless as can be. It is said that when Wesley cam,e to Newcastle he deplored the foul language of the Geordies (I'm surprised he understood it!). The preaching, combined with the revival power that came as the Holy Spirit 'moved' was the only way things changed.
In the mid nineteenth century things were similar - English society was either respectable but hypocritical or poor and godless. People who knew nothing whatever about the spiritual life, about the Christian faith, were 'swept into the church' under waves of conviction of sin and the need for their repentance.
I am convinced that we are in a similar state - and revival from God is needed for one thing alone: to "convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment." (John 16 v 8)
When people realise their need of a Saviour from sin, that's the time when the message of the church is needed, is heard and when people respond in thjeir thousands.
It has nothing to do, ISTM, with whether the church programmes are relevant to our culture, it's all to do with sin.
We are only relevant when people believe they are sinners. When the Spirit comes (in revival) it is he who will convince then of that fact. That is the common denominator of all revivals.
We will know it's a revival for one thing - people will repent of their sin before God.
(And that, incidentally, is why the Toronto Blessing was never a revival (whatever it may have been ) - there was no repentance.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Bad language, sexual desire, and so much else, is no longer a sin...
That was very bad: I don't mean to say that sexual desire is a sin! I meant misdirected or immoral desire - you know. I think you understand where I'm coming from...
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm very sceptical of calculated plans to set up an 'organic' or 'post-modern' church. The result tends to be fancy dress rather than DNA.
How do you plan an organic church? Isn't that equivalent to 'and now we shall have a spontaneous burst of applause'?
My understanding of organic church, as Frank Viola describes it, is that it's not planned in the formal sense. What happens springs up as a result of particular giftings and needs. The conditions have to be right, as they do in a wild meadow. These days environmentalists often intervene to help create the right conditions for a wild meadow to attract native flora and fauna, but that doesn't mean they're 'planning' the meadow.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
I'd suggest that the vast majority of people who join religious movements on the back of revivals (in the form we're discussing here) have a short religious lifespan. When something is built on emotionalism, the minute it reduces, people lose interest.
Yes, I reckon you're right - with the caveat that if people become genuine disciples of Jesus (i.e. people seriously committed to following his example and teaching) then they may well stick it out. I've read in a few different places recently this idea that the focus should be on making (and ourselves being) disciples, not on growing the church as such. Jesus said he'll build his church; he told us to make disciples.
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It seems that the nineteenth and early twentieth century church was very much at the heart of the community... That is so not the case today.
Secondly, the church provided something to belong to, to join, to be committed to, to be loyal to. From my observation, even among young Christians, people in today's society don't want to belong, they don't want to join up, commit, sign up or be loyal to something...
My sense is there's a great yearning to belong, just this manifests itself in a different way than how it did, say, 30 years ago. Sure, membership of all kinds of organisation has been plummeting for many years - but I think that has come from a growing distrust of institutions. And that's what the article I linked to earlier was getting at - if our model of doing church is institutional (or just comes across that way) and has at its heart an expectation that people will formally sign up to something, then perhaps it's going to seem irrelevant to a growing number of people.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The conditions have to be right, as they do in a wild meadow. These days environmentalists often intervene to help create the right conditions for a wild meadow to attract native flora and fauna, but that doesn't mean they're 'planning' the meadow.
That is a fabulous analogy! I shall steal it, if I may...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I have no problem with charismatic evangelicals praying for revival, and I hope their prayer is answered - but it may not happen the way they expect it to.
That's like the Jews praying for the Messiah, and not recognising Him when He came. It won't just be the charismatic evangelicals who have difficulty recognising "revival".
I see what you mean - we could show them statistics of the sudden growth in other churches, but they would say, "ah, but they're not proper christians. Never-the-less, their prayer will still have been answered, even if they don't acknowledge it.
Disclaimer:
My example is pure speculation - this may not be what would happen at all.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
Thanks for this Mudfrog. (I'm referring to your long post on the necessity of acknowledgement of sin and repentance for genuine revival.)
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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