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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The notion of 'revival'
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Is there really not a vice that can cause poverty? It is fare too simple to say that poverty is experienced by nice, ordinary, respectable people with middle-class values who just happen to have very little money. Some, not all, poverty is inextricably tied in with the sinful behaviour of someone, somewhere, who has caused it.
Probably not. Consider the poverty caused by corporate greed, all in the name of making a return on investment for shareholders. Difficult to tie down too - how can a corporation sin? Have bodies corporate been designed to deflect individual responsibility?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
Of course some poverty is caused by greed and injustice; no one is saying it isn't!
But poverty can also be caused by poor spending choices, by addiction, family breakdown - as I have already related, my mother, me and my sister were plunged overnight into poverty because of the lust and adultery of my father; there were no bankers involved in that!
Poverty can be caused by the husband/partner being sent to prison for assault, leaving a family with little income. Poverty can be caused by so, so many things.
Not everything is caused by someone else - there are many occasions when it's someone's 'fault' which means that the innocent suffer.
It is also necessary NOT to apportion blame in the relief of that poverty. There is no such thing as the 'deserving' or 'undeserving' poor.
HOWEVER, to get back to the subject in hand, a religious awakening, a renewed sense of what is right and what is wrong, a release from addiction and a desire to 'do good' are also very good poverty relief measures'.
Two little anedcotes from Salvation Army history:
The testimony of a converted drunkard-now Salvationist bandsman - was "I used to beat the wife, but once I got converted now I only beat the drum!"
And secondly, someone was asked if they really believed Jesus could turn water into wine, to which the reply was, I don't know but he's turned beer into furniture.'
The entire temperance movement in the nineteenth century was basically a fight against poverty that was caused by drink. In many, many situations a change of behaviour is the way out of poverty caused by recklessness.
TANGENT
As far as poverty caused by someone else is concerned, my latest figures for people asking The Salvation Army for food parcels in the North East of England, show the 55% of them ask for help simply because bureacracy has let them down and the benefits that are due to them have been delayed. Granted that many people in receipt of benefit are scraping to make ends meet, but it is the system of payments that needs looking at. If people are entitled to benefits, then they must be given those benefits regularly and on time.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
TANGENT
As far as poverty caused by someone else is concerned, my latest figures for people asking The Salvation Army for food parcels in the North East of England, show the 55% of them ask for help simply because bureacracy has let them down and the benefits that are due to them have been delayed. Granted that many people in receipt of benefit are scraping to make ends meet, but it is the system of payments that needs looking at. If people are entitled to benefits, then they must be given those benefits regularly and on time.
I appreciate that 'poor choices' cause poverty but I really wonder how much poverty is due to these and how much is due to external factors, like being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
As for the benefits system, I've long been of the belief that its cumbersome and piecemeal nature is a delibrate ploy to discourage and delay claims. I doubt that the 'Universal Credit', supposed to unite benefits will do anything other than apply a cap to benefits, irrespective of the claimant's needs.
[ 05. October 2012, 13:24: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
Speak up I can't hear you ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Speak up I can't hear you
Mea culpa, finger trouble.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What has often been seen in the revival of the church is the removal of community vices - drunkenness, poverty, family breakdown, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
…poverty is a vice, now?
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
....These things are not always personal sins, though personal sin might be associated with them. These are things that blight our communities, our neighbourhoods; these are things that entrap some people. They are a reproach to the nation to have poverty, drunkenness and family breakdown - and some of this may well caused by personal sin.
Well, I agree with your substantive points - but I do think that that 'vice' is a bad choice of word to describe poverty, unless we have widely divergent understandings of the meaning of the word. Poverty is neither a bad habit nor a morally dubious behaviour. It is a state of being which might, possibly, as you say, arise from one of these things. Or it might not.
A couple of more specific things:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Note the word 'community'. Is there really not a vice that can cause poverty? It is fare too simple to say that poverty is experienced by nice, ordinary, respectable people with middle-class values who just happen to have very little money.
I imagine there are plenty of vices which can, in certain circumstances, lead to poverty. Drinking and gambling spring immediately to mind - but I find it interesting that you have introduced concepts of 'niceness' and 'respectability' in here. Do people who were once nice and respectable cease to be so, once they are in poverty, or is the fact that they end up in poverty an indicator that they were never really very respectable in the first place?
Oscar Wilde once said, 'Work is the curse of the drinking class' - I used to have this framed on my wall, in fact. Not because I wished to glorify drinking, but because I loved the way it turned everything upside down. 'Drink is the curse of the working class' was a favourite saying of 'the respectable class', and implied that they brought all their problems on themselves by drinking to excess. Wilde wittily points out that it is not the drinking itself which is the problem - the wealthy throughout history have consumed staggering quantities of alcohol - but that there is a collision of value-systems between the drunkards of the working-class and the drunkards of the ruling class. Specifically, a member of the working class is meant to place great importance on having a clear head in the morning so he can fulfil his societal duty by working. The wealthy nabob, on the other hand, does not cause the downfall of his family by nursing a sore head until noon on a regular basis. Hence his drinking is not a 'vice'.
Which is a long way of saying that vice is a very loaded word.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
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Arminian
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# 16607
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Posted
Poverty is complex. Usury is the origin of much debt poverty we now have. The Bible has plenty to say about forgiving debts, the OT had this requirement built into the Mosaic law. Jesus made reference to lending without expecting back.
Contrast this with payday loans of 2500%, predatory lending targeting those of limited intellectual capacity, online gambling, the move to indirect taxation away from taxation based on earnings, and any number of other dubious financial activities. These are backed by sophisticated advertising campaigns with the latest research in psychology being used to maximum effect. The wider church remains largely silent to this. The Bible doesn't.
There is a lot more about the wealthy exploiting the poor in the Bible than for example homosexuality. Its not just the OT either - James has a rant about the rich, and so does Jesus, particularly when its the rich religious elite that are up to their neck in money making scams.
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Like you, I am concerned that the mainstream and MOTR and moderate churches could disappear - leaving forms of revivalism as the only kid on the block.
I really don't know what the answer is on this one. The main reason I've stuck around at my parish church despite it raising my hackles continually is because it is at least evangelising the town - even if that means it tends to draw like-minded people from parishes round about rather than converting the unchurched - although it is doing that too to some extent.
I am sure there are other places I could go which would be more satisfactory for me personally - in terms of the aesthetic, the worship-style and so on and so forth - but these don't appear to be engaging with the unchurched to the same extent - although they do some very good and worthy things.
It's a dilemma. Do I put up and shut up? or do I move on and get involved with something that isn't evangelising to any great extent?
I wanted to return to this, because it's a key issue now, I think. Nomatter how caring, sharing, tolerant and reasonable a church is (or thinks it is), it's not going to grow, or even remain stable, in our society if it doesn't inspire people in the community to know more about God. The social gospel isn't enough, because the welfare state has separated social care from religion and people no longer see an inevitable connection between the two, even if some of that care is coming from a church environment.
There are different responses to the current situation. The new Moderator of the URC Assembly, a man I know slightly, has stated that churches should stop freaking out about statistics, and instead be joyful people who recognise the value of smallness. Then there are are people who deliberately leave a flourishing evangelical church because they want to support a small, struggling church that they normally drive past every Sunday. There's the potential for ecumenical ventures, or bigger churches mentoring smaller churches within the same denomination. The Fresh Expressions model means that the traditionalists in mainstream churches can carry on doing their thing while resourcing alternative forms of church to attract satellite congregations.
In some moderate mainstream church circles evangelism is viewed with some distaste. It's not preached about. The denomination may hold seminars and discussion groups that you can attend if you're interested, but it's not part of the marrow of churchgoing life. A few years ago I read a Methodist document that described evangelism as 'flavour of the month'. If revivalists take it more seriously, it's hardly surprising that they'll have better outcomes.
Someone needs to do some serious research into the long term viability of ordinary mainstream churches, and their potential for transformation. And then someone else needs to come along to popularise this information so that the churches themselves can pray about it, reflect on it and decide on their response. When I visit Christian bookshops I'm surprised at how little I find that deals with these issues.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
My issue with some 'mainstream' groups and their sniffy attitude to evangelicals is that this tends to reveal their somewhat smug attitude that they are the 'proper' expression of Christianity and that all others are 'lite'.
I would remind them that this attitude is not new and that Jesus had something to say about it when he said that if God wanted to he could make children of Abraham out of stones lying on the floor! Let the 'mainstream' not think that it alone is the repository of truth, decency and authenticity.
Some of it is nothing more than a whited sepulchre, keeping dead men's bones in neat array.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
Mudfrog, I think you are right that more orthodox and liturgically observant churches can be sniffy about a number of things. There is certainly a longer history with that; but I think that a number of things that have come out in this thread (and a few other recent ones; like 'speaking in tongues') suggest that parts of the evangelical movement have lost touch with orthodox doctrine and the shape of 'worship'. The congregations are now audiences and entertainment is most important thing. I have, somewhat against my will, attended an evangelic CofE church here in Canterbury and I could not put my hand on my heart and tell you that they are even Trinitarian.
What is great about the evangelical movement(s) is that they so often work so hard and with much success in being 'in the community'. But I would argue that that has changed in the past 20 years or so and then the charo-evo churches have transformed a community devotion to our Lord into a Jesus-themed entertainment 'event'. Revivalism is part of that paradigm. It helps keep their narrative going, just like waiting for the rescue boat to arrive at Gilligan's Island…
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
It is also true that some of the modern evangelicals can be a bit sniffy with others who have not morphed into charismatics! The Salvation Army lost a lot of people in the 1980s to the House Church movement. AS friend of mine left his SA ministry with the triumphant declaration that 'The Salvation Army is no longer in God's plan for the church'. Nice of God to tell US that!
Another friend of mine was in training to be an officer and returned one day to his car to find a leaflet under the windscreen wipers: "Ten Reasons Why The Salvation Army is Not of God!"
I look at the religious TV programmes and see the Abundant Life church and others. If one turns down the volume one would simply assume it was a recording of a pop concert! This worries me intensely. You are right, these kinds of people who are evidently(!) more 'of God' than The Salvation Army (goodness knows what they thing of Methodists and, God help them, Catholics!) are so shallow you would even get your feet wet!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Parts of the evangelical movement have lost touch with orthodox doctrine and the shape of 'worship'. The congregations are now audiences and entertainment is most important thing. I have, somewhat against my will, attended an evangelic CofE church here in Canterbury and I could not put my hand on my heart and tell you that they are even Trinitarian.
The only solution is for all of these 'unorthodox' congregations to split off from the CofE. Then the CofE can be what many English people appear to want it to be; a traditional church, formal in terms of worship, caring, in the theological centre, tolerant, trying to be relevant in a culturally low-key way. Unfortunately, such a split would mean losing a lot of active churchgoers. If these were truly revival times that wouldn't matter, but as it is, I doubt if the powers that be would seek to remove them, nomatter how much they disapprove.
I can only think of one reason why people with such unAnglican practices (and possibly beliefs) as you describe, remain in the CofE: it gives them the oxygen of publicity, and a public platform that being in a new denomination wouldn't give them. They're probably less likely to 'tone things down' than if they were in some other denomination, because, after all, they have the status and privilege of the CofE to protect them! So I'm beginning to see see why other Anglicans are perplexed by these people in their midst; you can't live with them, but then again, you can't live without them, and while the CofE retains its established status, most of them are unlikely to leave. Indeed, people are likely to join them from other denominations. No doubt, plenty of them get burnt out and walk away, but plenty of people walk away from the MOTR congregations too.
Usually I'm into a degree of postmodernism and hybridity in the church, but in the CofE it seems to be a bit off the scale!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Yet another new church group is starting up in our neighbouring parish - The Revival Fellowship, this time.
Deep Joy - now we all know where to go.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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