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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Ecumenical brou-ha-ha in San Francisco
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Apparently the Episcopal Bishop was stuck in the basement while at the installation of the Roman Catholic Archbishop of San Francisco:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/05/bishop-bruhaha-in-san-francisco/comment-page-1/
The disagreement of what happens is whether the Episcopal Bishop arrived early or late. If he arrived late, then the RCs had a point in holding him until a suitable moment when they could let him in. If he arrived early or on time, then there is reason to suspect that it was intentional, probably because the RCs did not like the open letter he wrote.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
He says he arrived five minutes before he was told to arrive. So, that adds the question of whether he was told the right time, and by whom.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
I think the Archbishop needs to get his entire staff to a communications course because I am not impressed with what's been coming out of the ArchDio of SF since he got appointed.
And by 'entire staff', I am including the Archbishop because what I've been hearing come out of his fool mouth needs a lot more soft spin if he wants to stay in the City by the Bay.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
I think the Archbishop needs to get his entire staff to a communications course because I am not impressed with what's been coming out of the ArchDio of SF since he got appointed.
And by 'entire staff', I am including the Archbishop because what I've been hearing come out of his fool mouth needs a lot more soft spin if he wants to stay in the City by the Bay.
I'm no expert in RCC politics, but the cynic in me thinks perhaps his elevation was because of what comes out of his mouth.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And by 'entire staff', I am including the Archbishop because what I've been hearing come out of his fool mouth needs a lot more soft spin if he wants to stay in the City by the Bay.
I'm no expert in RCC politics, but the cynic in me thinks perhaps his elevation was because of what comes out of his mouth.
Yes, I have said in other places I wonder what rock they dug this Archbishop out from under because he doesn't seem to understand the concept of "San Francisco". And, you know, "designated drivers"...
[ 07. October 2012, 16:13: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
There's been a lot of vitriol on conservative RC blogs regarding Bishop Marc's pastoral letter to his own diocese, which for whatever reason many RCs are construing as a welcome letter to Archbishop Cordelione. They put "welcome" in scare-quotes, though, when they refer to it.
I can't figure out where they get that, given that the letter is titled, "Letter to the Diocese of California concerning the installation of Salvatore Cordileone as Archbishop of San Francisco."
Many Episcopalians in the diocese, including many former Catholics, are really upset by the appointment and the prospect of closing or changing Most Holy Redeemer Catholic Church in the Castro (which, IMO, is doing the work of Jesus, but conservative Catholics don't see it that way).
In his letter (as I read it), Bishop Marc is assuring those members of his diocese who worry that Bishop Marc's attendance of the installation (which we now know didn't happen) and his interest in working with the Catholic Archdiocese might lead to compromise over +Marc's stand against discrimination against LGBT persons that +Marc intends to "make no peace with oppression." Yet as he speaks of his intention to work with +Cordelione, he can't be equating the Archbishop with an oppressor, which is how many of the conservative RC bloggers and commenters are taking it.
Long ago, Thomas Merton worried about our culture becoming too slogan-oriented, so that we were losing our ability to hear and communicate with one another. It's gotten worse. We're only listening for buzz-words now. We need more rigorous schooling in grammar and context! It's nearly impossible to express the delicate nuances of a situation and be understood, or even listened to. Same in national politics, same in churches now, sadly.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
He says he arrived five minutes before he was told to arrive. So, that adds the question of whether he was told the right time, and by whom.
Although the question of when he arrived vs. when he was told to arrive isn't all there is to it... According to his account (here), he was actively prevented from being escorted upstairs with the Greek Orthodox delegation, who were present in the same room as him.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
I am sure many of us will be interested to read how this unfortunate episode in strained ecumenical relations continues to unfold!
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
I think the Archbishop needs to get his entire staff to a communications course because I am not impressed with what's been coming out of the ArchDio of SF since he got appointed.
And by 'entire staff', I am including the Archbishop because what I've been hearing come out of his fool mouth needs a lot more soft spin if he wants to stay in the City by the Bay.
I'm no expert in RCC politics, but the cynic in me thinks perhaps his elevation was because of what comes out of his mouth.
And if it continues, then he's a shoe-in for a quick promotion. It doesn't exactly take a rocket scientist to figure out how to quickly jump the ranks. Thankfully, most priests are smarter than that.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Yes, I have said in other places I wonder what rock they dug this Archbishop out from under because he doesn't seem to understand the concept of "San Francisco".
He was born and grew up in San Diego, and is a jazz musician. He has a PhD in theology, is a top notch canon lawyer, likes the Extraordinary Form (Tridentine mass), and is an outspoken opponent of gay marriage. It seems to me that he's in SF because he understands "the concept of SF" all too well, opposes strongly what is non-Catholic about it, and has the skill set to make a difference.
I don't assume for a second that what happened to the Episcopal bishop was anything other than a mishap. However, having read that letter of +Andrus to his diocese, it is just as well that he wasn't present. +Andrus managed to say one positive thing about ++Cordileone, in a letter which otherwise is basically all about disagreeing with him - and about using potential discontent with Cordileone's installation for a bit of sheep-stealing (hint, hint). Nice.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I heard something about it, but didn't realize that it was the Episcopal bishop. What a mess!
Salvatore Cordileone, the new RC archbishop, was selected directly by the pope. (Which, I presume, means the pope wants to rein in SF, one way or another.)
I was very unimpressed with the archbishop when he was interviewed on KQED public radio's show "Forum", in August. He came across as stiff, secretive, uncommunicative, suspicious, and extremely unpersonable. (He may simply be someone who interviews badly, but...)
His main concerns about abuse by clergy seemed to be "we brought shame on ourselves" and quibbles about the maximum age a victim could be and still be a child.
IMHO, the one good thing about him is that he cares about immigrants' rights.
You'd think that, even if the pope wants someone here who is doctrinely strict, he could at least choose someone better at relating to people. Why would anyone who doesn't already hold strict doctrine listen to what this guy has to say??
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
"our Roman Catholic sisters and brothers are welcome in the Episcopal Church"
Hint , hint. Indeed!
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
In his letter (as I read it), Bishop Marc is assuring those members of his diocese who worry that Bishop Marc's attendance of the installation (which we now know didn't happen) and his interest in working with the Catholic Archdiocese might lead to compromise over +Marc's stand against discrimination against LGBT persons that +Marc intends to "make no peace with oppression." Yet as he speaks of his intention to work with +Cordelione, he can't be equating the Archbishop with an oppressor, which is how many of the conservative RC bloggers and commenters are taking it.
If Bishop Marc came out and said that +Cordelione was a bigoted, homophobic etc, then the Roman Church would have every right to not invite him and to view him as an obstacle to ecumenism.
However, simply stating that the Episcopal Church disagrees with the Roman Church on a justice issue and that it believes it is the right one, is not actually insulting the Roman Church.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
Not inviting someone to an event because they oppose your ethical values or because you disapprove of their ethical values is fair enough. Inviting them, then delaying them in the basement so that they miss the event seems a little on the childish side.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
I have been enthralled by this brouhaha the past few days so I have read a lot of reports and articles about it all. In the comboxes the crux of so many comments seem to be "he's lying.... no HE's lying .... oh, no he isn't, HE is lying". As it happens I think it's all just a cock-up and no-one is actually lying.
It's hardly news that there are differences in approach and belief between the RC Church and TEC. But really this is all very odd. Clearly Andrus loathes Cordelione and he's not letting that be hidden.
Firstly, what an astonishing letter to the diocese to mark the arrival of a new RC bishop. What exactly was the point of it? It reads simply as "there are people who don't like him and let me re-assure you I don't either". Or is there some hidden point I'm not getting?
Andrus might well have been there ON TIME but he was in the WRONG PLACE. He was in the vesting area where the RC and Orthodox bishops were vesting, not where the other ecumenical guests were vesting. The Orthodox bishops processed and were seated with the RC bishops in the sanctuary - see here. Video footage here.
The ecumenical relationship the Catholic Church has with the Orthodox is different from its relationships with other churches. Other ecumenical guests had vested elsewhere, processed in earlier and were seated elsewhere in the Cathedral. All of them, by the way, RC and Orthodox bishops and other ecumenical guests, vested in the Conference Centre beneath the Cathedral.
Andrus was asked to wait, since the proceedings were already underway and he was not going to be seated with the RC and Orthodox bishops. The ceremony begins at the door of the Cathedral, and taking him in then would have been obtrusive. The RC people have made clear that he they were waiting for an opportunity to seat him. Clearly he felt snubbed and decided to leave. When they came for him he was gone. He obviously did not hang around for long.
What's the first thing he does? He takes to the internet on his diocesan news page. An Archdiocesan official issues an apologetic clarification, indicating no offence was intended. So Andrus responds with a blog post in effect calling him a liar and saying he was "detained in a basement". Yup, just like everyone else had been before they were seated in the Cathedral.
So having publicly dissed Cordelione prior to his installation he now publicly dissed him afterwards by making out he was terribly badly treated and was the victim of some dark forces trying to "detain" him in "a basement". This surely is very odd behaviour.
It seems to me Andrus is intent on conducting his relationship with Cordelione via the megaphone. And Cordelione is the one who should be singled out for opprobrium in all this? I don't think so.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Just to add - I don't think it was the fault of Andrus that he was in the wrong place for the vesting - someone obviously escorted him there and that's how it all went wrong.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
It's all most unedifying all the way round. However, if ever there were a case for Anglicising an Italian surname, surely this would be it. Sounds like a mafia don. Really, not a good connotation in the present state of the RCC in America.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Andrus might well have been there ON TIME but he was in the WRONG PLACE. He was in the vesting area where the RC and Orthodox bishops were vesting, not where the other ecumenical guests were vesting.
...
It seems to me Andrus is intent on conducting his relationship with Cordelione via the megaphone. And Cordelione is the one who should be singled out for opprobrium in all this? I don't think so.
If he was in the wrong place, it could only be because that was where he was escorted or directed by the archbishop's staff. And no one there realized a mistake had been made and escorted him to the correct location? And no one bothered to explain then and there? Now the incompetence of staff is more the responsibility of the person in charge but it seems an apology is owed to Andrus (as for sheep tempting, both sides have been engaged in it and I don't think Andrus or the TEC is setting up an ordinariate). Cordelione's best gesture to defuse the situation might be to send an apology and also an invitation to meet to discuss immigrant welfare.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Yup, I said in my immediate follow-up post that it was the person who escorted him's fault.
By the time the appropriate person who would have explained to him what had happened arrived, he had left. All in the space of a few minutes.
In response to reports of the incident, George Wesolek, spokesman for the Archdiocese of San Francisco immediately said: ""We had no intention of excluding him at all. If he felt like because of the wait that was insulting to him, we certainly will apologize." Andrus responded with a blog post.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
He says he arrived five minutes before he was told to arrive. So, that adds the question of whether he was told the right time, and by whom.
Although the question of when he arrived vs. when he was told to arrive isn't all there is to it... According to his account (here), he was actively prevented from being escorted upstairs with the Greek Orthodox delegation, who were present in the same room as him.
Yeah, really. I was just addressing that particular excuse that was used. There is all kinds of shady going on in that story.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
In response to reports of the incident, George Wesolek, spokesman for the Archdiocese of San Francisco immediately said: ""We had no intention of excluding him at all. If he felt like because of the wait that was insulting to him, we certainly will apologize." Andrus responded with a blog post.
Good start. here's part of what Bishop Andrus said in reply:
quote:
I checked my phone; it was 1:50PM. I asked the employee standing with me if the service indeed started at 2, which she affirmed.
At 2PM, when the service was to begin, I said to the employee, "I think I understand, and feel I should leave." Her response was, "Thank you for being understanding." I quietly walked out the door. No one attempted to stop me
This is the part of his story that bugs me the most. He said " I think I should leave" and the reply was "Thank you for being understanding?"
The best interpretation of that is she didn't hear him right.
[ 08. October 2012, 03:35: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
I have been enthralled by this brouhaha the past few days so I have read a lot of reports and articles about it all. In the comboxes the crux of so many comments seem to be "he's lying.... no HE's lying .... oh, no he isn't, HE is lying". As it happens I think it's all just a cock-up and no-one is actually lying.
As a public servant, I've found a very good rule of thumb is: if you have to choose between a conspiracy and a cock-up, it's almost certain that it's a cock-up.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
The best interpretation of that is she didn't hear him right.
'best' or 'most generous'? That point also struck me as odd if it were all a mishap though cascading mishaps happen. Given that it is obvious that Andrus thinks he was snubbed (with justification), it behooves the archbishop to make some substantive gesture to show it was unintentional. He might not like Andrus's views of his actions and views, but, if he is going to work with most major figure in San Francisco, Marin or San Mateo he is going to have to work with people (left or right) with similar views in regards to gays and who frankly fear what he might do. He might as well start with Andrus.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Sorry, "Most generous" is indeed what I meant.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I can WELL understand the employee being a bit mystified by the "I feel I should leave" bit, and not knowing how to respond to it.
And exactly whose job does he think it was to stop him from leaving??
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
I hope Triple Tiara's reading is the right one. That could be patched up ASAP.
I too found it unfortunate that DioCal's news website had a blurb about it right away. I don't know precisely how that site works, so I wouldn't say that Bishop Marc rushed to post about it on a blog. It could be that he mentioned it to a staff member (and notifying anyone who was there to cover the event for DioCal's news would only be fair; they might still want to cover the service, but shouldn't be left hunting for their bishop if he's not there) and that staff member rushed it to the internet. I wouldn't rush to blame Bishop Marc for that.
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
If Bishop Marc came out and said that +Cordelione was a bigoted, homophobic etc, then the Roman Church would have every right to not invite him and to view him as an obstacle to ecumenism.
However, simply stating that the Episcopal Church disagrees with the Roman Church on a justice issue and that it believes it is the right one, is not actually insulting the Roman Church.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) Why does it seem to be the knee-jerk reaction these days to take offense at someone's holding a view different to your own - and having the audacity to think their view isn't wrong!?
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Not inviting someone to an event because they oppose your ethical values or because you disapprove of their ethical values is fair enough. Inviting them, then delaying them in the basement so that they miss the event seems a little on the childish side.
To be fair, the invitation has to have gone out well before Bishop Marc's Oct. 1 letter - and the letter may have been the reason for the snub. Perhaps a phone call to (politely?) disinvite him would've been better - this way wasted a lot of his time, something bishops don't have an endless supply of.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I can WELL understand the employee being a bit mystified by the "I feel I should leave" bit, and not knowing how to respond to it.
And exactly whose job does he think it was to stop him from leaving??
That may be, but a simple "I'm sorry?" or "Pardon?" would have been much better than "Thank you for being understanding." Seriously - if someone said something mystifying to you in any situation, would that be your response?
And a polite host does try to dissuade you from leaving in a situation like that. They don't throw themselves in front of the door and stop you, but just letting you go with no protest generally would be taken by anyone to be a dismissive response.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Does anyone realize just how difficult it is to marshall the start of a liturgy like this? A liturgy on this scale, with this many moving parts, happens infrequently enough for it to be almost a one-off affair.
It may be that the master of ceremonies is perpetually punished by having to run these shows decade in and decade out, but you can best be sure that his assistants and ushers and doorkeepers, and whatnot, are mostly new to the show.
There are approximately eleventy-dozen different kinds of Very Important People, each of whom must enter their procession at the right time, in the right order. And, when he or she arrives at their place, they had better have a place to sit.
Let's pass by the government officials, and the representatives of the various charities and non-profits with which the Church has to do. Let us also pass by the various honored guests of our own Church (sisters and brothers and the KoC and OD) to deal only with bishops in their variety of hats.
There are 'our' bishops and there are 'their' bishops. There are various kinds of 'our' bishops, who need to be treated differently, and God save the poor seminarian-usher who misplaces one of 'our' bishops.
Then, there are 'their' bishops enough like 'our' bishops so that we treat them pretty much like our 'bishops', but not quite like 'our' bishops. And, of course, these come in various flavors and grades. Please be sure to respect their relative ranking.
[Confused yet? Well let's not forget that many bishops are old and infirm and by charity should be herded each by his own chaplain. Then there is the fact that many bishops could barely find it with both hands and a flashlight in their salad days, let alone now, in their dottage.]
Then there are 'their' bishops who look like 'their' bishops, but who, in fact, are 'our' bishops, who get treated like 'our' bishops'.
And, of course, in to this episcopal maelstrom of 'our' bishops and 'their' bishops and 'our' bishops who look like 'their' bishops, comes this character, Marc Handley Andrus, who perhaps was wearing a rig much like one of 'our' bishops, but doesn't quite fit the neat classification of 'ours'/'theirs'/'ours'-looking-like-'theirs', so some unfortunate flunky directs the hapless Andrus to where 'their' bishops are milling about, when he should have been directed to where the Protestants are assembling (God only knows how they are dressed).
And, the request goes up chain of command to figure out where this bishop, not 'ours' nor 'theirs', belongs. But the 'chain' isn't fully linked up and the idea of 'command' is just a fond hope at a few minutes shy of the witching hour.
So, the person sent to get the answer has to rush through the cathedral complex (a large place), obtain the answer, and then bustle back to escort this ersatz 'bishop' to his proper place (at a time that won't embarrass all and sundry) with the rest of the Protestant Observers. When the harried functionary returns with the answer, the ersatz 'bishop' has discretely retired from the scene.
If Andrus had been equipped with just a touch more grace, he would have waited until his harried hosts could accommodate him. Being an eminent episkopos (ersatz or otherwise) does not relieve one of heeding the lesson of Lk 14:10.
If true, the prime idiocy is that the archdiocese instructed Andrus to be there by 1:45 p.m. for a two p.m. pontifical liturgy. One o'clock would have been closer to the mark.
[ 08. October 2012, 05:56: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
That may be, but a simple "I'm sorry?" or "Pardon?" would have been much better than "Thank you for being understanding." Seriously - if someone said something mystifying to you in any situation, would that be your response?
Yeah, my comment was meant to suggest she didn't hear or parse that comment at all. That the "Thank you for understanding" may have been a simple acknowledgement of the cockeduppityness of the situation. (Thus, "Thank you for patiently tolerating our clusterfuck.")
Wouldn't it be refreshing and healing if somebody, somewhere said exactly that?
(Question: What were the Orthodoxen doing in the basement? Just curious. )
[ 08. October 2012, 06:03: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
If true, the prime idiocy is that the archdiocese instructed Andrus to be there by 1:45 p.m. for a two p.m. pontifical liturgy. One o'clock would have been closer to the mark.
This has the golden chime of truth.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
Given that it is obvious that Andrus thinks he was snubbed (with justification), it behooves the archbishop to make some substantive gesture to show it was unintentional.
Sure, I would suggest the series of gestures here, from 1:11 to the end.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
There are approximately eleventy-dozen different kinds of Very Important People, each of whom must enter their procession at the right time, in the right order. And, when he or she arrives at their place, they had better have a place to sit.
The first shall be last, eh?
When did the Church of our Lord Jesus come to this?
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
Yeah, they should've said to be there by 1pm. 1:30 at the latest. While it's hard to tell VIPs to show up early and wait around, that wouldn't be the case here - there would be lots of VIPs who would be very interested in seeing and speaking with each other. Gathering them in a comfortable place, perhaps with light refreshments (or at least water available) would've been really nice, a chance to network and deepen ecumenical relationships.
Maybe they really aren't that used to doing major events?
In my years at Grace Cathedral, we've done quite a few huge events, ecumenical or otherwise, and I don't recall any major incidents. Bishop Marc's installation included (IIRC) four processions coming from different directions, even - and a video feed for a spill-over crowd downstairs (Bishop Marc and Presiding Bishop KJS distributed Communion down there). We do get practice every year at our Remembrance Day service, where we have not only ecumenical guests, but also dignitaries (such as a representative of the Queen and various Ambassadors). It is hard work, but you plan it very carefully, have lots of proofreaders, rehearse with staff and volunteers, and use your staff and most trusted, experienced volunteers (i.e., not just well-meaning people who want to be involved).
At any rate, the fact that this incident happened on St. Francis' Day makes me hope that "where there is injury, [we can sow] pardon." It disturbs me that people are lining up along denominational sides and sniping at each other.
As for stealing sheep, I'm sure I'm a bit unusual, but I think it's good when people leave a church if another church is there to welcome them. It's better than their giving up on faith entirely. Maybe it's because I'm Episcopalian I can say that (not believing that leaving my church is leaving the One True Faith). But I wasn't offended by the Ordinariate set up by Benedict - I thought it a good option for some people who were unhappy in the Anglican churches. It helped prevent them from splintering the Church even further by forming yet another church. Of course, I've read Catholic commenters on some blogs who say outright that my church's Sacraments have no grace, or that we're heretics, or that we're a false church, we're not real Christians, etc., etc., etc. So I can imagine that such Catholics wouldn't be pleased to know we're there to welcome their disaffected (and disenfranchised). They might even prefer such people stop going to any church at all, thinking the Episcopal Church merely deceives its members into thinking they're OK spiritually, which is worse than knowing you're not Christian. But no Catholics I know personally think like that. In fact, I'm welcomed to receive Communion in some Catholic Masses around here. As usual, I think the people and the priests know better than the hierarchies how to handle ecumenical relations.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
At any rate, the fact that this incident happened on St. Francis' Day makes me hope that "where there is injury, [we can sow] pardon." It disturbs me that people are lining up along denominational sides and sniping at each other.
You know what? This is the bottom line and you are absolutely right. I will join in your prayer.
quote:
As usual, I think the people and the priests know better than the hierarchies how to handle ecumenical relations.
I shared off board that I have become "Catholic Curious*" recently, mostly because of amazing folk I have met at school, and it's just what you said that attracts me-- it's not the hierarchy or the structure that appeals to me, its the amazing, often unsung magnificence I see in the Body of Christ.
*Calm down, IngoB ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Bax
Shipmate
# 16572
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Posted
Having been "behind the scenes" in various litigical big services (albeit not as big as this one and not in the US)this sound like just a cock-up.
From the outside, it may look as if eveyone knows what they are doing in these sorts of services, but more often than not there is perhaps only one person who know exactly what is meant to be hapening and where everyone is meant to be at any one time. Everyone else hopefully knows what they are supposed to be doing (and maybe not even that) and generally just go with the flow as it were and uually things work out ok!
Add in the unpredicatble effects of protestors outside, and it's very easy for things to go horribly wrong. The idea that is was an intentional snub seems highly unlikely.
Posts: 108 | Registered: Aug 2011
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
There are approximately eleventy-dozen different kinds of Very Important People, each of whom must enter their procession at the right time, in the right order. And, when he or she arrives at their place, they had better have a place to sit.
The first shall be last, eh?
When did the Church of our Lord Jesus come to this?
Quite. If people stopped poncing about in their vestments, having processions and seating arrangements organised along the lines of who is most important, this sort of thing would not happen and maybe the world would see a church that looked like Christ's disciples. Why not just seat on a first come first served basis, with ushers taking people to the next available seat starting from the front?
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Exactly - in a Christian service, why are there any VIPs?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Flossymole
Apprentice
# 17339
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Posted
quote:Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
There are approximately eleventy-dozen different kinds of Very Important People, each of whom must enter their procession at the right time, in the right order. And, when he or she arrives at their place, they had better have a place to sit. The first shall be last, eh? When did the Church of our Lord Jesus come to this? [Disappointed] Quite. If people stopped poncing about in their vestments, having processions and seating arrangements organised along the lines of who is most important, this sort of thing would not happen and maybe the world would see a church that looked like Christ's disciples. Why not just seat on a first come first served basis, with ushers taking people to the next available seat starting from the front?
Abso-bloody-lutely. We've got our instructions - Luke Ch.22 V.26 among others. Although I do like the look of vestments. And the sight of an archbishop in full get-up sitting at the side among the giggling teenagers would be one to treasure.
Posts: 43 | From: Derbyshire UK | Registered: Sep 2012
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
So, the person sent to get the answer has to rush through the cathedral complex (a large place), obtain the answer, and then bustle back.
Isn't that why God created cell phones?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bax:
From the outside, it may look as if eveyone knows what they are doing in these sorts of services, but more often than not there is perhaps only one person who know exactly what is meant to be hapening and where everyone is meant to be at any one time. Everyone else hopefully knows what they are supposed to be doing (and maybe not even that) and generally just go with the flow as it were and uually things work out ok!
A friend of a friend is reported to have taken a wrong turning during one of these vast hyper-liturgical services and found herself face to face with Rowan Williams. The good Archbishop apparently said: 'Don't worry. If you bow to me and I bow to you, and we go our separate ways, everyone will assume it was part of the plan.'
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I can WELL understand the employee being a bit mystified by the "I feel I should leave" bit, and not knowing how to respond to it.
And exactly whose job does he think it was to stop him from leaving??
That may be, but a simple "I'm sorry?" or "Pardon?" would have been much better than "Thank you for being understanding." Seriously - if someone said something mystifying to you in any situation, would that be your response?
And a polite host does try to dissuade you from leaving in a situation like that. They don't throw themselves in front of the door and stop you, but just letting you go with no protest generally would be taken by anyone to be a dismissive response.
He said "I understand". The employee said "thank you for understanding".
Focusing on the SECOND half of what he said while ignoring the FIRST half is probably the exact opposite of what actually happened.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
My experience of VIPs: the best ones are the ones that don't act like they are.
I used to work for an entire council of VIPs, and the ones I remember fondly and would make extra effort for were the ones who spoke to 'underlings' in exactly the same way that they spoke to each other.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
(Question: What were the Orthodoxen doing in the basement? Just curious. )
Perhaps you are skipping my posts Kelly, but I indicated above the answer to that: EVERYONE was vesting in the "basement". I don't know the place at all, but the Event Center is located beneath the Cathedral.Hereis the website. Different groups of people were marshalled in different areas.
I picked that information up from reading various articles, but apparently it's not getting out there through the shrill outrage (from all sides - I dislike the appalling comments by the Captain Catholic types more than all others!)
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
I have this wonderful vision of a gaggle (conclave? pride? what is the correct collective noun?) of Orthodoxen and sundry other bishops in glorious regalia wandering around this large basement with looks of confusion. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
My experience of VIPs: the best ones are the ones that don't act like they are.
I used to work for an entire council of VIPs, and the ones I remember fondly and would make extra effort for were the ones who spoke to 'underlings' in exactly the same way that they spoke to each other.
I have worked in similar situations in the past (see state funeral MW reports) and can assure you that this is my experience-- I remember fondly Wally MacLean, Bill Davis and Bob Rae for exactly the reasons orfeo describes. Others suggesting that orders of precedence are unChristian may well be right in theory as are those who ignore financial reports on the basis of not wishing to store up treasure on earth, but we are then able to avoid seating by bullying and mob rule and I assure that this is a real challenge. (The MW editor wisely cut from the Trudeau report a potentially actionable dialogue between myself and one of Stockwell Day's staff on the question of precedence as his boss was in a snit over having to sit below the salt of a former political opponent).
This case sounds a bit like minionitis meeking chip-on-the-shoulder prelate, but think it possible that one or the other (if not both) of the two sources might not be entirely truthful in their accounts.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Firstly, what an astonishing letter to the diocese to mark the arrival of a new RC bishop. What exactly was the point of it? It reads simply as "there are people who don't like him and let me re-assure you I don't either". Or is there some hidden point I'm not getting?
I think part of the confusion is that various media outlets have described it (ironically?) as a "welcome" letter. It seems pretty clear to me that this letter was not for the benefit of Don Cordileone, but for the people of the Episcopal Diocese. Bp. Andrus was saying, "Look, I know all of you find this guy morally repugnant, and I do too (with the exception of one or two issues). But I've been invited to the installation and I think it is important for me to go. So don't give me too much grief about it."
I actually find the letter a bit weasely, not because it is unwelcoming to Bp. Cordileone, but because Bp. Andrus should have had the courage of his convictions from the outset and declined the invitation, rather than saying he would go but would be sure to wear his frowny face.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
As for stealing sheep, I'm sure I'm a bit unusual, but I think it's good when people leave a church if another church is there to welcome them. It's better than their giving up on faith entirely.
Way to miss the point... Does the Episcopal Church normally show the door to disgruntled RCs that drop in on their regular services? Of course not, quite to the contrary I would imagine. I bet ex-RCs make up a significant part (the majority?) of Episcopalian converts... So why does +Andrus feel the need to instruct his flock to be welcoming to RCs, if they are used to welcoming RCs anyhow? Because in the context of this letter it's clearly a heavy-handed hint that the installation of an unpopular RC archbishop presents a golden opportunity for them to strengthen their numbers.
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
A confusion of bishops.
Love it! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
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Posted
I totally buy the cock-up explanation- it would be insane to purposely add a public snubbing to the nightmare that a major event already is- but did none of the flunkies think to explain to Andrus that there had been some kind of mistake and they weren't sure what was going on?
He claims that nobody tried to explain to him what was happening. Looking at the situation from a customer-service perspective- if there's one thing people resent it's being left in the dark with no information or apologies when a company (supervisor, archbishop, whatever) has screwed up. Speaking as a flunky myself, if I were the basement flunky-in-chief I think my line would have been "I am really, really sorry, Bishop, but there's obviously been a mistake somewhere. You aren't on my seating list because I only have the Orthodox and Catholic guests. You know it's a madhouse upstairs right now, so it may take us a few minutes to sort this out. I'll let you know just as soon as I know something. I am really, really sorry for the confusion."
Seems like either the flunky was too panicked (understandable, if I had a bishop getting in my face I would be too) or there was too much chaos for them to sort things out in a timely way. But if Andrus is telling the truth it's really unfortunate that no one took time to explain the situation to him.
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
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