Thread: It's Saturday Morning - here they come Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Stoker (# 11939) on
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We recently decided, rather tham fob them off with an excuse, to engage in discussion with some JWs, or 'Winesses' as they self label.
Apart from the diety of Christ discussion, it's actually quite hard to work out where they're coming from - what do they want to achieve, what are their 'core' beliefs and mission.
She talked quite a lot about end times and prophecies from Daniel, but we're not totally sure what the gist was (the clay feet from Daniels vision are, apparantly, the Anglo-American empire).
So I guess the question is, what are their core beliefs? and what's the Saturday morning door knocking all about?
Posted by Circuit Rider (# 13088) on
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I heard a story about a woman who was visited several Saturdays in a row by JWs, two women, handing out literature and talking their doctrine.
One Saturday the woman decided she had had enough, and prepared for them. Sure enough, at the time she had been visited before, the doorbell rang.
Opening the door she saw two different women, but they had literature in their hand, so they were welcomed in. "Before we start," she said, "I want us to do something." She faced an American flag she had placed in her living room and said the pledge of allegiance. Then she sang the national anthem, "Star Spangled Banner." When she finished she invited her guests to sit down and said, "Now, how can I help you?"
One of the women visitors, clearly shocked and amazed, said, "In all my years of selling Avon I have never had this happen."
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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It's not that difficult to work out what they believe. Just read The Watchtower and their other literature.
Essentially, it's plain old fashioned Arianism mixed up with a highly literal Millenarianism absorbed from the outer fringes of early/mid-18th century American Protestantism.
It's also incredibly boring.
So boring in fact that I can't be bothered to set out their core beliefs systematically here as I'd probably nod off before I reached the end of the list.
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
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AIUI they believe that they contribute to their own well-being by going door-to-door. (I do not know the exact nature of the benefit.) It makes no difference how people respond; the point is that they do it.
If anyone knows better, please say so.
Moo
Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on
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It's worth remembering that JWs are under immense pressure from the people above them in the JW hierarchy and if they dissent and rebel they can be disfellowshipped and cut off from everyone they know.
Consequently I suspect the reason any individual JW knocks on the door will include a strong element of 'because I have to'.
For that reason I am generally careful to be polite to them, although I won't engage them in discussion.
Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on
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Did anyone think to make them a cup of tea? Perhaps some bourbon cream biscuits might have been a nice addition.
I remember someone from Birmingham telling me about some Mormons who used to visit him - he had them digging his garden for him, they made themselves very useful!
Posted by Alwyn (# 4380) on
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(Circuit Rider, I've taken the liberty of adding your hilarious story to the SoF Quotes File in The Circus).
Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Circuit Rider:
... She faced an American flag she had placed in her living room and said the pledge of allegiance. Then she sang the national anthem, "Star Spangled Banner." When she finished she invited her guests to sit down and said, "Now, how can I help you?"
Never mind the JW door knocking; what was that all about?
Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on
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We get regular visits though mostly I think Seventh Day Adventists. They are a pleasant group of elderly black people, the women often stopping to chat while the one man pushes on ahead sticking leaflets into doors - which the women don't notice and start leafleting a second time until he notices and gets a bit cross. I think he'd rather be on his allotment.
The one leaflet I remember had the title "You could spend eternity with your family". It wasn't clear if it was a threat or a promise. I was very tempted to say "I did that last weekend" but desisted.
One woman also had 'Weight Watcher' fliers which we agreed to put on our communal notice board (it's that sort of place). She didn't ask for religious ones to be put up - but having seen the yogic tofu knitting, sacred wymmyn's tree hugging and such ads she probably thought she was a bit too mainstream for us.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by Circuit Rider:
... She faced an American flag she had placed in her living room and said the pledge of allegiance. Then she sang the national anthem, "Star Spangled Banner." When she finished she invited her guests to sit down and said, "Now, how can I help you?"
Never mind the JW door knocking; what was that all about?
JW's don't render obeisance to symbols like flags, nor offer allegiance to countries. Caused then no end of trouble during the War To End All Wars, and the war which followed.
Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
JW's don't render obeisance to symbols like flags, nor offer allegiance to countries. Caused then no end of trouble during the War To End All Wars, and the war which followed.
And they weren't exactly popular with the Nazis (see wikipedia - I can't get the link to work). On account of which they can have a cup of tea with me anytime.
Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
It's worth remembering that JWs are under immense pressure from the people above them in the JW hierarchy and if they dissent and rebel they can be disfellowshipped and cut off from everyone they know.
Consequently I suspect the reason any individual JW knocks on the door will include a strong element of 'because I have to'.
For that reason I am generally careful to be polite to them, although I won't engage them in discussion.
Young JWs are often not allowed to get married until they have done enough ministry for the faith. And they aren't allowed to date unless its for the purpose of getting married.
That's why many door-knockers are young, male, and looking slightly too eager.
Posted by kankucho (# 14318) on
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I used to live round the corner from one of the major north London Kingdom Halls (I say that like I know how many there are), so I was a regular port of call on their doorstepping rounds.
Whenever I was minded to switch on my Bodhisattva Never-Disparaging persona ("I will not disparage you... for you are sure to attain the Buddha way") Not really being bothered about the nitty-gritty of Christ's identity (sorry, shipmates!) I'd get into some blue-sky chats and would always invite them to return when they'd discussed my questions and come up with some answers. I never seemed to get the same people coming back twice though. Presumably I only got the ones who hadn't studied the list of embargoed addresses before they set out.
Since I moved east, there's been a marked dip in the quality of doorstep discourse. The average recent JW caller would be intellectually out of their depth with 90% of householders who were prepared to engage with them. Maybe they just go out to get some experience of bearing persecution with fortitude?* And the last WatchTower I accepted seemed to be peppered with advice on immigration, and on basic personal hygiene in language and assumptions that would insult the intelligence of a nine year-old. So much for clarifying what they believe in (cf Gamaliel, above).
[eta:] * Is that the answer to the OP question, perhaps?
[ 02. November 2012, 17:39: Message edited by: kankucho ]
Posted by Felafool (# 270) on
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Having whiled away many an evening inviting them in for tea and biscuits (keeping them off my street!)I found the most frutiful approach is....treat them like people.
Often they have what seems to be the 'teaching of the week' which they are keen to pass on to the people they speak to, and it can be quite difficult to engage in any real discussion that doesn't go round in circles. Hence my gambit is to try to get them 'off message' and ask open questions like "Tell me, when and why did you become a JW?"; Even the good old Evangelism Explosion questions sometimes work.
Rather than argue over doctrine and dogma, find out what faith means to them, or grace. Ask how their faith has changed their lives. It's not rocket science, but can lead to friendly mutual exploration of how we understand God and the way God interacts with us.
Posted by Circuit Rider (# 13088) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
AIUI they believe that they contribute to their own well-being by going door-to-door. (I do not know the exact nature of the benefit.) It makes no difference how people respond; the point is that they do it.
If anyone knows better, please say so.
Moo
I think you are right. I have had them knock on the door of our parsonage next door to the church and obviously connected by driveways.
Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on
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quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
JW's don't render obeisance to symbols like flags, nor offer allegiance to countries. Caused then no end of trouble during the War To End All Wars, and the war which followed.
And they weren't exactly popular with the Nazis (see wikipedia - I can't get the link to work). On account of which they can have a cup of tea with me anytime.
Yes, I'm getting to like them too. We occasionally get a couple come round with their son, but they're never up for a conversation; just get the kid to give me some literature and then leave me alone. I'll have to invite them in next time.
Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
JW's don't render obeisance to symbols like flags, nor offer allegiance to countries.
I'm warming to them...
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
The one leaflet I remember had the title "You could spend eternity with your family"[i]. It wasn't clear if it was a threat or a promise. I was very tempted to say "I did that last weekend" but desisted.
That is probably why JW's do not celebrate Christmas.
Their rejection of Trinitarianism is regrettable and I tell them so (they miss out on a lot) but [i]disfellowshipping is worse. No, not the doctrine, many churches have that, the word itself.
Posted by Ender's Shadow (# 2272) on
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I haven't had them call for a long time since I used a copy of their edition of the bible, quoted the iffy end of Mark's gospel to them - the bit about laying on of hands for healing as a sign of belief, and enquired pointedly: 'So when was the last healing at your Hall'. The guy tried to wriggle a bit: 'it's not in all the texts'... 'But it's in YOUR text...'
One could get into the cessationist argument that such things ended - until you actually read what the proof text for that, 1 Cor 13, actually says. It's prophecy and knowledge that pass away, not healing.
Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
JW's don't render obeisance to symbols like flags, nor offer allegiance to countries.
I'm warming to them...
They "refuse to pledge allegiance" because, in the JW worldview, all and everything that is not JW is controlled by Satan. It's not a principled, high-minded stance.
Yes, the Elders send in returns to Brooklyn HQ of how many door-knocking hours the congregation have tallied up - and these are micro-managed and members (mostly known as *other sheep* i.e. not part of the 144,000 who are destined to rule from Heaven post-Armageddon, post-Tribulation) so that's why these terrified people do it.
Another interesting fact is that fit, able-bodied JWs are encouraged to remain on state benefits ("making use of Caesar's provision") in order to do the far more essential (so say the dictators of the Brooklyn Watchtower Gerontocracy) work of door-knocking.
You warm to them because they got persecuted in the Holocaust? True. they did, along with other groups who were considered a threat to the Reich. In the UK (and, I don't doubt in the US), they are not threatened or persecuted so why are they still a racist, sexist mind-control cult who target the sad, the lonely and vulnerable?
{first-hand experience, thank you}
Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
JW's don't render obeisance to symbols like flags, nor offer allegiance to countries.
I'm warming to them...
They "refuse to pledge allegiance" because, in the JW worldview, all and everything that is not JW is controlled by Satan. It's not a principled, high-minded stance.
Yes, the Elders send in returns to Brooklyn HQ of how many door-knocking hours the congregation have tallied up - and these are micro-managed and members are coerced into making the numbers and sales* (mostly known as *other sheep* i.e. not part of the 144,000 who are destined to rule from Heaven post-Armageddon, post-Tribulation) so that's why these terrified people do it.
*If they don't manage to make sales from the door knocking of the amount of "literature" they're allocated (and for which they, themselves pay in the first instance), then they have to make up the difference from their own pockets. Nice little double-dipping scam there.
Another interesting fact is that fit, able-bodied JWs are encouraged to remain on state benefits ("making use of Caesar's provision") in order to do the far more essential (so say the dictators of the Brooklyn Watchtower Gerontocracy) work of door-knocking.
You warm to them because they got persecuted in the Holocaust? True. they did, along with other groups who were considered a threat to the Reich. In the UK (and, I don't doubt in the US), they are not threatened or persecuted so why are they still a racist, sexist mind-control cult who target the sad, the lonely and vulnerable?
{first-hand experience, thank you}
Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on
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I have never found engaging in conversation with JWs anything other than exasperating. They are so controlled that it is impossible to reason with them. My Dad once had a "Eureka" moment with a young JW woman who he engaged in conversaion whilst the man she was with carried on down the street. She suddenly realised that Jesus is God, turned to her friend in panic and was whisked away swiftly, presumably for brainwashing. Next time some others came to the street, one of our neighours said they should go and chat to the man at No16 (my Dad) "because he likes religion and that". "No" they said, "we aren't allowed to go to that address".
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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I think you'll find that it's their Arianism and cultic tendencies that puts them beyond the pale of mainstream Christian belief, Ender's Shadow rather than their cessationism.
There are plenty of Trinitarian Christians who are cessationist and have a different 'take' on the disputed end of Mark's Gospel as you well know. I wouldn't use those verses as an acid test of orthodoxy even though I don't - in principle - have any problem with the idea of God choosing to heal people through prayer and the laying on of hands.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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@Kankucho ... fair call ... I s'pose what I meant to say was if you read their study material - rather than the bait-and-switch stuff they use on the doors.
They use the Watchtower and so on to lure people into more in-depth Bible study using their flawed translation. Essentially, they believe that Jesus is some kind of incarnation of the Archangel Michael and that all the churches and religions have got it wrong and that the Watchtower organisation is the only one that's got things right ... everyone else is doomed to oblivion when they die (not eternal conscious hell fire, they are annihilationists) but you get the chance to avoid that by studying with the Witnesses and trying to lead others into the way ...
Hence the door-knocking.
They take a very literal view of apocalyptic books like Revelation and believe that they will be the only ones preserved when final destruction comes upon this wicked world. Some 144,000 will reign with Christ from heaven whilst the rest of the JWs will dwell for eternity on a restored 'paradise earth'.
From an orthodox or mainstream Christian perspective the whole thing is iffy in its Christology, lack of Trinitarianism and so on.
I've known plenty of JWs in my time and they are pretty genuine and decent people. Demographically, they tend to come from similar kinds of backgrounds to most Pentecostals and some of the more fundamentalist forms of evangelical - which is why these groups tend to clash with the JWs in debate and so on as they encounter them when they, too are door-knocking and so on.
Essentially, one could argue, they are targetting the same demographic.
Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on
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How is their translation flawed?
(Just to be clear: that's a genuine question. Presumably they have to meet some sort of standard?)
Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on
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Gamaliel - that is what the poor door-knocking "other sheep" are TOLD to believe. In my experience, most lowest-level JWs are poor, bewildered souls (a LOT of MH issues in the congos - debate point - do you join the JWs coz you're crazy or do they drive you crazy?). The deep theological issues raised on this thread really pass unregarded amongst the rank and file of the JWs - they just do as they are told.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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I'm sure that's right, Jahlove. I've certainly met JWs with mental health issues. I'd say the same thing applied to the more fundamentalist end of things in general, though, not just to JWs.
On the issue of their Bible translation. They have what is called The New World Translation which is their own translation and which differs in very significant points from all other translations generally accepted across Christendom as a whole.
In essence, they downplay those verses which are traditionally used to assert the deity of Christ.
I could get onto their rendering of John 1:1 for instance, but suffice to say that their translation is regarded as iffy by the generally accepted authorities and consensus in these matters.
Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on
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The best way to handle a JW is to ask:
"If God abandoned the Church after the first 300 years and only came back in 1844...why did he take so long?"
Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on
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Working purely from Wikipedia, it doesn't look too bad... What am I missing?
Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on
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As a social worker I meet a lot of JWs (the group tends to draw from the poor and disaffected in our society). It's true that they regard the State as coming from Satan; they tell me this. Still, this does not stop many of them from either entering civil service (working for the devil?) or being on public welfare benefits.
As for the door-knocking, this is required of JWs who wish to remain in good standing. That's important to them, since often their primary social group is the local congregation, and being disfellowshipped is something they dread. But a lot of the ones I know manage to fulfill their "witnessing" duty by simply standing there with copies of THE WATCHTOWER at train stations. Nobody ever buys it, but they often get into friendly conversations with commuters.
Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Working purely from Wikipedia, it doesn't look too bad... What am I missing?
OK... so next step is to look in the local directory for your nearest Kingdom Hall. Good luck with that! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on
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A few years ago the JWs starting referring to their buildings as "Assembly Halls," and not "Kingdom Halls." Not sure why.
Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on
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Posted by Mark Betts: quote:
next step is to look in the local directory for your nearest Kingdom Hall. Good luck with that!
I know where my nearest Kingdom Hall is, thank you. So far they're doing a lot better than the Orthodox Church.
Over to you!
Now. Do you want to answer the question?
Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Posted by Mark Betts: quote:
next step is to look in the local directory for your nearest Kingdom Hall. Good luck with that!
I know where my nearest Kingdom Hall is, thank you. So far they're doing a lot better than the Orthodox Church.
Over to you!
Now. Do you want to answer the question?
OK - as far as I'm concerned, I stay away because they are unitarian and un-catholic - but, as you don't have a problem with either of those things, I'd be interested to know why you stay away - especially as things are so much better there than with those horrible Orthodox.
Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on
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Originally posted by Mark Betts: quote:
OK - as far as I'm concerned, I stay away because they are unitarian and un-catholic - but, as you don't have a problem with either of those things, I'd be interested to know why you stay away - especially as things are so much better there than with those horrible Orthodox.
Unitarian begs another question...
Un-Catholic, I haven't addressed...
My question had to do with their translation of the Bible.
Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Unitarian begs another question...
Un-Catholic, I haven't addressed...
My question had to do with their translation of the Bible.
They use the Westcott-Hort text, but they have translated their own version of the Bible from it - which isn't a recognised translation outside the JW faith, due to obvious manipulation to support their particular beliefs - ie unitarianism.
eg. John 1 changes from "The Word was God" to "The Word was a god."
Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on
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Frankly: is that it?
That's the worst you can come up with?
Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Posted by Mark Betts: quote:
next step is to look in the local directory for your nearest Kingdom Hall. Good luck with that!
I know where my nearest Kingdom Hall is, thank you. So far they're doing a lot better than the Orthodox Church.
Over to you!
Now. Do you want to answer the question?
OK - as far as I'm concerned, I stay away because they are unitarian and un-catholic - but, as you don't have a problem with either of those things, I'd be interested to know why you stay away - especially as things are so much better there than with those horrible Orthodox.
hmm, there are good arguments about why the JWs are wrong - no need for passive-aggresssive denominational drivel (which wasn't even mentioned).
Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
hmm, there are good arguments about why the JWs are wrong - no need for passive-aggresssive denominational drivel (which wasn't even mentioned).
OK - sorry for the flippancy, but even so - the fact that they reject the Trinity and all things catholic are good arguments as far as I'm concerned.
There's already another thread open on Trinitarianism.
By "all things catholic" I simply mean the Faith as we receive it, rather than someone who comes along in the 19th century, and throws everything away and invents his own version of Christianity.
I have no reason to believe such a man - what Authority does he have?
Posted by Jolly Jape (# 3296) on
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quote:
originally posted by Ender's Shadow
I haven't had them call for a long time since I used a copy of their edition of the bible, quoted the iffy end of Mark's gospel to them - the bit about laying on of hands for healing as a sign of belief, and enquired pointedly: 'So when was the last healing at your Hall'. The guy tried to wriggle a bit: 'it's not in all the texts'... 'But it's in YOUR text...'
Actually, asking them to share a prayer with you tends to get them to leave lickety-split: especially if it involves laying on of hands.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Once, a team had the misfortune to arrive at our door whilst we were holding a preparation meeting for a week of mission. The older guy was so keen to depart that he left his hat behind!! (yes, he did wear a hat, but we're talking mid eighties here)
I have no proof, but strongly suspect that trinitarian Christian households are "red-lined", so's not to disturb the junior members of the house-to-house teams.
[ 02. November 2012, 23:38: Message edited by: Jolly Jape ]
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
How is their translation flawed?
(Just to be clear: that's a genuine question. Presumably they have to meet some sort of standard?)
My issue with the JWs is not so much about their Bible translation, but about their exclusivity. As others have noted, they have a big thing about obedience and, if you don't toe the line, discipline leading to disfellowshipping.
As I understand it, JWs have to put in a certain number of hours door-knocking each month, and they are not encouraged to explore the Bible themselves, because of the JW teaching that the Watchtower organisation is God's appointed channel for truth. They're also forbidden (I think; or at least strongly discouraged) from reading things like commentaries written by non-JWs.
So they start their doorstep conversations by trying to find common ground ('Oh, you're a Christian like us. That's great, we love to meet fellow lovers of the Bible!), but then will try to help you see that the truth, and salvation, can only be found within their organisation.
Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on
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I've spent time on Saturday morning chatting to them, usually when I have nothing else to do.
I often end up turning the evangelising opportunity on its head and ask them whether they would like to join the Church of England. They politely decline.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I've spent time on Saturday morning chatting to them, usually when I have nothing else to do.
I often end up turning the evangelising opportunity on its head and ask them whether they would like to join the Church of England. They politely decline.
They are even less impressed by invitations to your local Roman Catholic church! It's as if you have the Inquisition, or at least a couple of spare Jesuits, in your house.
Posted by Grokesx (# 17221) on
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quote:
As others have noted, they have a big thing about obedience and, if you don't toe the line, discipline leading to disfellowshipping.
If they don't repent. If they do they get to stay in "the Truth" which in the short term at least is just as bad as being disfellowshipped, since they have to stand at the back of the hall in meetings and nobody is allowed to speak to them. This goes on for a year.
The disfellowshipped are supposed to be shunned by all, even family members. In practice this is not always policed - my wife, disfellowshipped twenty years ago, has just returned from holiday with her mother who is still a JW. Every now and then we notice that we have not been visited by her mother for a while - she lives very close by - and assume there has been some heavy teaching on shunning the depraved going on.
Sometimes my wife has to put up with attempts to get her back which she gives short shrift, and many years ago I had the experience of attending an assembly. Every year around Easter they have an open assembly. Family members not in "the Truth", even disfellowshipped ones, can be persuaded, cajoled or emotionally blackmailed into going along. It's their way of keeping the door open and can be successful - my wife's brother has recently joined after a lifetime of indifference other than going to such assemblies occasionally.
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
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To balance this up a bit I know a couple of JW's ( 2 older woman: I have never met a young single male JW) one from regular visits to the swimming baths, the other as a check out assistant at the local Sainsburys. Out of context, neither have tried to convert me.
Coincidently, some years ago they used to visit my grandad, an active member of my (RC) church. Over about 18 months of weekly visits they became friends. They knew that he was not going to convert, and never got past the hall, but the 10 minute doorstep conversation ended up being 1 hour chats about respective families and what was going on in the world, ending with a prayer which satisfied both parties. When he died, although they wouldn't attend the church funeral, they did come to the cemetery to see him off.
I realise that we lucked out and am very much not advocating the JW world view, having spoken with less engaged/engaging JWs, but as with most things not all doorsteppers are the same.
It's interesting to note, considering how literal they are in all other ways, that they do not use the Our Father, as "it was not meant to be repeated literally word for word".
Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
Out of context, neither have tried to convert me.
My experience is the same. I had a JW secretary for many years (followed by another JW secretary) and neither tried to convert anyone or talked much about their beliefs. The team's Christmas lunch was rebranded 'End of Year lunch' to ensure they attended, but otherwise you wouldn't have known their religion.
Posted by Grokesx (# 17221) on
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quote:
I realise that we lucked out and am very much not advocating the JW world view, having spoken with less engaged/engaging JWs, but as with most things not all doorsteppers are the same.
I don't think you've lucked out at all. Based on my wife's experience, Kingdom Halls are for the most part full of perfectly nice people. It's the institution that sucks.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
simply mean the Faith as we receive it, rather than someone who comes along in the 19th century, and throws everything away and invents his own version of Christianity.
I have no reason to believe such a man - what Authority does he have?
But it is wonderful if it occurs in the 3rd century? It fine is done in the 16th or 17th century? It is good when it is done so one man can swing his willy anywhere he chooses? This is not a road successfully taken by anyone without being challenged. Most all religion can be distilled down to "I believe what these blokes wrote about what that bloke said and how these other blokes interpret it." There is no "Authority" other than what one chooses to accept.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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If the JWs are really bugging you on a Saturday morning, why not do as I do and buzz off to Church? Mass at 930am, Open Church/Coffee Morning/baptism + wedding enquiries etc., and the Angelus at 12 noon...... ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Why they are never to be seen in our street, I know not.
Ian J.
Posted by kankucho (# 14318) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
...By "all things catholic" I simply mean the Faith as we receive it, rather than someone who comes along in the 19th century, and throws everything away and invents his own version of Christianity.
I have no reason to believe such a man - what Authority does he have?
Don't catholics say that about all protestant religions though - give or take a few centuries?
[edit] Ah. I overlooked lilBuddha there. Snap.
[ 03. November 2012, 13:40: Message edited by: kankucho ]
Posted by kankucho (# 14318) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I've spent time on Saturday morning chatting to them, usually when I have nothing else to do.
I often end up turning the evangelising opportunity on its head and ask them whether they would like to join the Church of England. They politely decline.
chances are the only people who do engage them in conversation are those with something of their own to sell.
That's certainly true for me. My lot gave up street proselytising as a bad job decades ago. But our constant prayer is to attract people into our lives who want to encounter the law of Myoho Renge Kyo. So, when someone proactively comes to my door to talk about the meaning of life, the universe and everything - job's a good 'un.
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on
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I've recently fallen in with a crowd of young (22-25) andro lesbians. Mostly because they all tend bar at my favorite watering hole (an easy gig for kids who haven't had much encouragement in education to get). A significant number of them are also disfellowshipped JWs, which has lead to some interesting and hilarious conversations regarding growing up in two completely different churches. One of my friends was a pioneer in her teens (door-knocker) and frequently recorded well over the 70 hours of preaching activity a month required to maintain that exalted status, in addition to helping out on other important projects and basic clerical tasks assigned by the Elders.
Disfellowshipping in the JW sense means a letter is sent to every Assembly Hall you've ever dealt with, even if it's as small as donating $5 to their building campaign, and that letter is read out in the weekly service telling everyone to cease contact with you. Including family members.
And of course, one of the easiest and fastest ways to get disfellowshipped is to be queer.
I really do feel pity for them and their works-based theology and strict codes. But I still get myself redlined every time I move by telling the first JW who knocks, "I am not going to join your church if you're just going to kick me right back out again."
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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People's mileage will vary, but most JWs I've known have been pretty normal and not that different from anyone you might run into in your standard non-conformist Protestant setting ... apart from the theology of course.
This, I suspect, is why they tend to come in for some stick, because they're effectively operating in the same territory but with a different paradigm.
It's interesting that if you look at Orthodox and some RC websites in other parts of Europe you'll find that they don't apparently make that much distinction between JWs and Mormons and other 'marginals' and groups like the Pentecostals and independent evangelicals who are Trinitarian and seen as much more 'orthodox' by the rest of us.
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
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Felafool: Best comment by country mile.
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I've spent time on Saturday morning chatting to them, usually when I have nothing else to do.
I often end up turning the evangelising opportunity on its head and ask them whether they would like to join the Church of England. They politely decline.
My grandmother would always tell them she'd be glad to take and read some of their Watchtower literature if they'd take and read some of her Presbyterian literature.
Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Grokesx:
quote:
I realise that we lucked out and am very much not advocating the JW world view, having spoken with less engaged/engaging JWs, but as with most things not all doorsteppers are the same.
I don't think you've lucked out at all. Based on my wife's experience, Kingdom Halls are for the most part full of perfectly nice people. It's the institution that sucks.
That is true of almost every large organisation I've ever dealt with - religious, trade union, political, educational .....
I'm not sure how you avoid that. The job of the managers of an institution is to keep it flourishing which justifies all sorts of chicanery.
Posted by Stoker (# 11939) on
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
simply mean the Faith as we receive it, rather than someone who comes along in the 19th century, and throws everything away and invents his own version of Christianity.
I have no reason to believe such a man - what Authority does he have?
But it is wonderful if it occurs in the 3rd century? It fine is done in the 16th or 17th century? It is good when it is done so one man can swing his willy anywhere he chooses? This is not a road successfully taken by anyone without being challenged. Most all religion can be distilled down to "I believe what these blokes wrote about what that bloke said and how these other blokes interpret it." There is no "Authority" other than what one chooses to accept.
Slight tangent, but I assume you mean Henry 8th and the Reformation?
Slight point of order, but the reformers can't seriously be compared to JWs founder Charles Taze Russell:
The reformers stripped away false teachings, man made doctrines and obstacles to real faith by encouraging people to read the word the themselves.
C T Russell bought in false teaching, man made doctines and obstacles to faith and his legacy discourages people from reading the word for themselves.
So basically , lilbuddha, you're talking rubbish.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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Stoker,
I do not have a horse in that race, but what you are talking could easily be argued from the Roman Catholic/orthodox side as protestants deviating from the Truth. The JWs could argue they were stripping clear the rubbish.
Your argument is not an argument at all. Of course you believe your choice the most correct, but so too does everyone else.
Posted by Stoker (# 11939) on
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Not so lb,
The source documents and indeed source of truth for any christian denomination is the Bible. The test has to be wether folks are encouraged to see and understand what it says for themselves, rather than through a particular lens - which may be a church, a religion or other writings.
Here's an example, I have had a look into JWs, the founders have made lots of weird claims about the end of the world and when it will be (last prediction was 1975) no biblical basis, just crackers!
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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[tangent]Hmm. The main thing that reading the Bible for myself, and not just the bits of it that certain authorities like to major on, taught me, was that etiher there was no way the perfect word of God, or God is a homicidal maniac. I've chosen to take the former line as a tentative conclusion.[/tangent]
Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on
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If anyone's interested in a real insight into the goings on in the world of the Jehovah's Witness faith, I've found an excellent blog detailing a man's conversion to "the truth", and his doubts, which would lead to him eventually converting to Eastern Orthodoxy.
Don't worry, he's only got as far as the third part, which is the fiasco after 1975 - I don't know if or when he'll write the next part, but here's the story so far:
Part 1: The Journey from Jehovah’s Witnesses to the Orthodox Church
Part 2: Life at Bethel, the World Headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses
Part 3: When Prophecy Fails — The 1975 Fiasco Viewed from Inside Bethel
One thing which occurred to me is how similar all this is to what happened in the Worldwide Church of God. I'm not speaking from personal experience, but I do know people caught up in that movement (and it's subsequent fragmentation after Herbert Armstrong's death) - they believed the Great Tribulation would begin in 1972, where "true" christians would all fly out in silver jets to a "place of safety" for 3 and a half years!
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