|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Christian women, hijabs and cultural appropriation
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
One of the youtube vloggers I follow is Gothmummi, a Christian woman who wears the hijab for spiritual reasons of modesty. I am considering using them for headcoverings for similar reasons (ie not because of headship or other expired equine topics). I just don't feel like the more standard headcoverings like bandannas etc feel right for me, and bonnets/kapps are out because I am far from Plain. I have made a blog post about it but wanted to know if anyone here had thoughts on a white, obviously Christian woman wearing hijab for spiritual/religious reasons.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
Okay, sorry if my terminology is a bit off-kilter here, hopefully my meaning will be clear...
I don't think there is anything "sacramental" about Muslim headgear, it's just a way of covering the head and/or the face, in keeping with the religious dictates of modesty.
So, I think a proper comparison would be, say, someone switching to a vegetarian diet, because he's heard from Hindus that it's healthier. That's not the same thing as, say, putting a statue of a Hindu deity in your living room, and praying in front of it, as if you were a Hindu, because you think it makes you look cool.
[ 04. November 2012, 03:11: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I have made a blog post about it but wanted to know if anyone here had thoughts on a white, obviously Christian woman wearing hijab for spiritual/religious reasons.
It was common in the early church I believe.
I think it was Byzantine fashion.
That early church mother that did pilgrimages all over the place used to wear a veil as she traveled.
Seemed to be part of the culture.
I don't have a problem with it if it's what you want to do. Go for it. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I found a great little cartoon on one possible interpretation of the idea here.
[ 04. November 2012, 03:41: Message edited by: Evensong ]
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
The main problem I see with such a plan is that you will confuse people and end up having to try to explain why you are doing what you are doing. Or you'll have to be curt and uncommunicative or coyly mysterious. Not that it's anyone's business what you wear, but that never stops anyone. Are you a Muslim? Is it a fashion statement? Do you have alopecia? Are you going through chemo? Do you belong to a cult? In the meantime they are not seeing you. They are looking at a quandary. My two cents.
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
google up images of orthodox head covering or eastern orthodox head covering, or the like. The patent style of the female head covering may be culturally Muslim or Christian, but there's nothing nothing particularly religion-specific about it. Stop into any conservative Orthodox parish church to see the variety.
Also, "Muslim" male head coverings can be found on Orthodox monks—or is it vice versa? See the fourth product down on this page.
Does anybody know the Russian or the Greek word for these monks' caps?
[ 04. November 2012, 04:08: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
|
Posted
A lovely old lady at my Mum's church (small, outback community) decided to do much the same thing, for much the same reasons. She just bought a lot of really lovely hats and wears one pretty much constantly. Something else to consider, maybe?
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
|
Posted
Go for it if you are a "hat person".
I am too.
My problem with it is that after twice going through chemo if people see me wearing too much head-covering they think "Ooh! It's come back, poor thing!" Or that I am converting to Judaism.
Christian women here very purposely do not cover to distinguish themselves from their Jewish and Muslim sisters.
I think covering is very becoming to most faces actually and you really have so much choice over colours and fabric textures...
There is always The Political Statement in it. Anything we women do with our hair is a political statement. So just have it clear in your own mind (at least for the coming 12 hours - obviously we all develope!). And have a sound bite or 3 ready for situations on the street.
Please keep in touch about it (or PM me). I'm so interested to see how it goes in Britain.
--------------------
She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
Galilit: quote:
And have a sound bite or 3 ready for situations on the street.
That's good advice to meet my concern.
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
The main problem I see with such a plan is that you will confuse people and end up having to try to explain why you are doing what you are doing. Or you'll have to be curt and uncommunicative or coyly mysterious. Not that it's anyone's business what you wear, but that never stops anyone. Are you a Muslim? Is it a fashion statement? Do you have alopecia? Are you going through chemo? Do you belong to a cult? In the meantime they are not seeing you. They are looking at a quandary. My two cents.
Honestly, this wouldn't bother me. Being a larger woman, my body is subject to public comment anyway so a little more doesn't make much difference to me. The only group that concern me re their opinion of it would be my church and other Christian friends, and the potential new relationship on the horizon.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
|
Posted
If you want to wear a head covering, good for you go for it BUT please don't pretend that it has anything to do with Christianity. I HATE the idea of hijab it smacks of women being responsible for men's behaviour and a whole host of other things and there is nothing within Christianity to suggest that women need to cover their heads, except perhaps when praying and that is a completely different thing from wearing it for modesty. So wear what you want, make any fashion statement you want but don't say that it is has any link with Christianity 'cos that's a heresy-it's purely a fashion statement for Christians.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Go for it if you are a "hat person".
I am too.
My problem with it is that after twice going through chemo if people see me wearing too much head-covering they think "Ooh! It's come back, poor thing!" Or that I am converting to Judaism.
Christian women here very purposely do not cover to distinguish themselves from their Jewish and Muslim sisters.
I think covering is very becoming to most faces actually and you really have so much choice over colours and fabric textures...
There is always The Political Statement in it. Anything we women do with our hair is a political statement. So just have it clear in your own mind (at least for the coming 12 hours - obviously we all develope!). And have a sound bite or 3 ready for situations on the street.
Please keep in touch about it (or PM me). I'm so interested to see how it goes in Britain.
From a feminist perspective and as someone who fights many battles with her very thick unruly hair, the idea of taking my hair back out of public view does appeal. It makes it mine and mine only, seen by who I allow to see it. That's not the reason I want to cover but it is an appealing aspect of it.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
If you want to wear a head covering, good for you go for it BUT please don't pretend that it has anything to do with Christianity. I HATE the idea of hijab it smacks of women being responsible for men's behaviour and a whole host of other things and there is nothing within Christianity to suggest that women need to cover their heads, except perhaps when praying and that is a completely different thing from wearing it for modesty. So wear what you want, make any fashion statement you want but don't say that it is has any link with Christianity 'cos that's a heresy-it's purely a fashion statement for Christians.
Um, it's not about fashion for me. Totally, totally not. It's symbolic of my relationship with God. I'm not covering in the 1 Corinthians sense, it's not to do with male headship or anything like that. Why is the prompting of the Spirit/my soul/what have you heresy? My personal reasons for covering ARE to do with my personal faith.
As for hijabs within Islam, it's not about women being responsible for men's behaviour. I am clearly not in a position to speak for Muslim women but it is not about oppression, it's about spiritual expression and ownership of one's own body, not having it for everyone to objectify. I don't see how having to have socially-defined perfect hairstyles every day is less oppressive than wearing a headscarf.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I don't see how having to have socially-defined perfect hairstyles every day is less oppressive than wearing a headscarf.
Yes, well, the pertinent term here is "having to". That's the nub of the problem. Being pressured or compelled to do anything in particular with your hair (or any other part of your body) is oppressive. Doing what you choose with your hair, whether that's covering it, perming it, shaving it off or having one of those colourful Mohican cockscombs which used to be fashionable, should be entirely your own business. But it isn't. As Galilit says, everything we women do with our hair is a political statement. In fact, everything we women do with any aspect of our appearance is a political statement and there's been a recent Hell thread about this.
Rightly or wrongly, many people in Western cultures find Muslim women's head coverings threatening, while they don't find the similar head coverings worn by traditional Christian nuns threatening. This probably goes back over 1000 years to the Islamic invasion of Europe. I don't think it's entirely rational, which makes it particularly difficult to deal with.
So, as other people have already said, you will get comments. Maybe you could tell people you're a traditional nun? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
Rightly or wrongly, many people in Western cultures find Muslim women's head coverings threatening, while they don't find the similar head coverings worn by traditional Christian nuns threatening. This probably goes back over 1000 years to the Islamic invasion of Europe. I don't think it's entirely rational, which makes it particularly difficult to deal with.
I adore extreme hairstyles and wear many different head coverings myself.
The thing I dislike about the hijab is that it covers the face. This removes a huge part of communication - facial expressions are important to me.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
The thing I dislike about the hijab is that it covers the face.
The hijab covers hair and neck. Other garments cover the face - burqa being an example.
--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
|
Posted
The thing I dislike about the hijab is that it covers the ears. You won't hear as clearly. And you'll need to be careful in how you behave because you'll be mistaken for a Muslim woman, by Muslims and non-Muslims alike.
It can also make your hair go flat ("hat hair") and the cloth being tight against the skin of your face can feel uncomfortable and hot - it doesn't allow the pores to breathe. In winter it's extra warmth but in a warm environment you may wish you hadn't opted for it. It does also depend on the cloth and how you position it but it may also slightly restrict your field of vision.
Other than that I don't have a problem with it. It can look attractive and elegant, although not every woman has a face that suits being framed by cloth. If you visibly wear Christian jewellery you may get away with it, but be prepared for some unwanted attention.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
If you want to wear a head covering, good for you go for it BUT please don't pretend that it has anything to do with Christianity. I HATE the idea of hijab it smacks of women being responsible for men's behaviour and a whole host of other things and there is nothing within Christianity to suggest that women need to cover their heads, except perhaps when praying and that is a completely different thing from wearing it for modesty. So wear what you want, make any fashion statement you want but don't say that it is has any link with Christianity 'cos that's a heresy-it's purely a fashion statement for Christians.
Um, it's not about fashion for me. Totally, totally not. It's symbolic of my relationship with God. I'm not covering in the 1 Corinthians sense, it's not to do with male headship or anything like that. Why is the prompting of the Spirit/my soul/what have you heresy? My personal reasons for covering ARE to do with my personal faith.
As for hijabs within Islam, it's not about women being responsible for men's behaviour. I am clearly not in a position to speak for Muslim women but it is not about oppression, it's about spiritual expression and ownership of one's own body, not having it for everyone to objectify. I don't see how having to have socially-defined perfect hairstyles every day is less oppressive than wearing a headscarf.
Christian spirituality says not to worry about what you wear, the body is more than clothing, so it's heresy to think that your clothes have any moderating influence on your relationship with God or could be symbolic of your relationship with God.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
The thing I dislike about the hijab is that it covers the face.
The hijab covers hair and neck. Other garments cover the face - burqa being an example.
Oooops, sorry, you are right. Then I have no problem whatever with it, this is no different from any other head covering.
It's face covering which bothers me.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Christian spirituality says not to worry about what you wear, the body is more than clothing, so it's heresy to think that your clothes have any moderating influence on your relationship with God or could be symbolic of your relationship with God.
Have we come around to the annual Lent thread already? For some, these things are important aspects of their faith.
--------------------
Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
Jade Constable: quote:
As for hijabs within Islam, it's not about women being responsible for men's behaviour. I am clearly not in a position to speak for Muslim women but it is not about oppression, it's about spiritual expression and ownership of one's own body, not having it for everyone to objectify.
I have read statements from a number of Islamic women that this is true for them. I believe them.
OTOH, there was a recent article in Newsweek by a Western woman who lived for a week with a Saudi woman who very distinctly articulated that her modest covering was worn in order to protect men's honor, and that if they "fell" in any way because her dress attracted attention, it would be her responsibility before Allah. She was also violently against all new feminist steps in her society such as having female news readers with uncovered faces on TV or women driving. Her and all other women's job in life was to serve their husbands, make a happy and comfortable home for them, raise their children to be faithful servants of Allah, and protect their family's honor. And attract no attention to themselves. Period.
There was no indication that her husband was a domestic tyrant, enforcing her parroting of those opinions to a visitor. He seemed to be just a quiet-spoken university professor the few times the writer was in his presence.
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
|
Posted
There is also, of course, the wimple.
Irreproachable European heritage and comes in a variety of styles (I like the knitted one the baby is wearing).
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
I like most of those! Of course, I'm a historic recreationist at heart.
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
|
Posted
Jemima Goldsmith-Khan said she felt that when wearing "Islamic garb" she had less social difficulties of course; but she also felt people really did treat her with more respect, genuine respect.
I know myself when I have worn one of my "could-be-a-religious-head-covering" hats I am treated more politely.
--------------------
She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
As for hijabs within Islam, it's not about women being responsible for men's behaviour. I am clearly not in a position to speak for Muslim women but it is not about oppression, it's about spiritual expression and ownership of one's own body, not having it for everyone to objectify.
Having to cover ones hair because otherwise men cannot control their penises is oppression.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
|
Posted
Point the second:
I think our hair affects and reflects our relationships with Other People (family, friends or random passers-by); not our relationship with God per se. (Unless it's a Habit or a nun-ny skirt and aran knit cardie, I suppose)
Maybe it's an outward sign for us so that we'll feel more whole and integrated in whatever hair or covering we choose.
But I don't think "God wants" one to dress in a certain way. And as for his Ministers and People here on Earth : NOONE will tell me what to wear on my head or what NOT to wear on my head.
Once you start thinking about this (hair, covering,etc) you never stop analysing it.
I find it simply fascinating and I love to consider what affect my hair/covering is going to create. Who might think she is my new sister? Who might think I have changed? (Health or belief), What random passers by might do or say? Is it sunny? How sunny? How feminine? How androgynous? How practical? How pretty? How attention-drawing?
Welcome, Jade Constable, to this world! It's a wonderful Journey!
--------------------
She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
As for hijabs within Islam, it's not about women being responsible for men's behaviour. I am clearly not in a position to speak for Muslim women but it is not about oppression, it's about spiritual expression and ownership of one's own body, not having it for everyone to objectify.
Having to cover ones hair because otherwise men cannot control their penises is oppression.
I've often wondered why, if men are the ones God/Allah has appointed to rule the world and rule over women, they need such aid in ruling over their own impulses. It doesn't inspire confidence.
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
Occasionally I see women wearing something like this. They obviously all belong to the same religion, but I don't know what it is.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
What about a buff - there are a huge variety of styles. You could get a black one if you felt strongly about it.
(What I would say is, if you are finding life tough at the moment: don't invite more problems into you life than you have to, so maybe cover your head if you feel you need to but do it in a way that isn't as likely to draw adverse attention as a hijab, you have enough on your plate already.)
[ 04. November 2012, 11:14: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Occasionally I see women wearing something like this. They obviously all belong to the same religion, but I don't know what it is.
Muslim. This is the Turkic version of the hijab. Worn in some parts of Turkey (although the government is secular and doesn't really approve) and in the former Soviet Turkic states such as Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan etc.
--------------------
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I've often wondered why, if men are the ones God/Allah has appointed to rule the world and rule over women, they need such aid in ruling over their own impulses. It doesn't inspire confidence.
tangent:
Has there been any research on whether men find it more difficult to rule over their own impulses in African countries where young women go around more or less naked? It would be interesting to know whether rape/sexual assault is more or less likely than in countries where women are covered up. Does anyone know?
/tangent
--------------------
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Two thoughts.
Headscarves, snoods, wimples etc can look very elegant, but, if not actually denying, I'd query whether it is being evasive about ones faith if one wears it in a way that is likely to cause people to think one is a Moslem.
It might be an idea to wear a visible cross or to choose a quite different style - e.g like Russian women wear for church.
Also, I think other people are entitled to be able to see your face when you talk to them. Otherwise, in what way is that different from IRA balaclavas that cover the face with holes cut in them for eyes, nostrils and mouth? It's also discriminatory even against the partially deaf.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Having to cover ones hair because otherwise men cannot control their penises is oppression.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) Those ridiculous little tags of skin?
It's the mind of man we need fear.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
My anecdotal understanding is that Islam took this, as much else, from Christian (Syriac) tradition.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
As for hijabs within Islam, it's not about women being responsible for men's behaviour. I am clearly not in a position to speak for Muslim women but it is not about oppression, it's about spiritual expression and ownership of one's own body, not having it for everyone to objectify.
I've got a really cool bridge to sell you. A bit damp around the edges this week, but it'll clean up nicely.
In some places women have been killed for showing their faces in public. That's not spiritual expression. Its not even ordinary oppression. Its slavery. Institutionalised rape as a means of social control.
And yes, there's nothing wrong with wearing a headscarf if you want. When I was a kid most working-class English women wore headscarves. Its just changing fashion. Maybe you'll start a trend.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
|
Posted
Pre-JFK we all, men and women, wore a hat whenever we went outdoors. Women were allowed to wear the hat indoors, too, because it was part of her outfit. Most episcopalian churches I've visited at least one women is wearing a fashion hat. One friend never goes out without a hat, she is sun sensitive and a hat is just part of her look.
Go buy some hats that look good with your clothes for our culture, people's only comments will be how good you look.
Adopting a not-our-culture headgear is going to get some comments, mostly silent, such as "she must be part of some religious cult." Because they are silent you don't get to respond with your own explanation. At least know that, don't be surprised.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
|
Posted
Yes, it's just a generally religious/spiritual gesture from a certain century, and generally in fashion see here.
I'm always feeling moved to wear head-things out of a vague religious sense, ever since I worked for a family of Plymouth Brethen and envied their lovely family, community and lifestyle. They wore little triangles of cloth, and I felt ashamed, going there one day with very short hair and nothing to cover it.
In Palestine, the Christians make a point of not covering their hair, and the muslims look incredibly sexy in their slinky headgear and skintight to wrists and ankles clothes!
[ 04. November 2012, 13:24: Message edited by: Taliesin ]
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Ken, all that and worse is true. How are we to include such cultures? Such enemies? How are we to love them? Honour them?
When are we EVER going to be Christ to them?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
|
Posted
Far back in the middle of another century when I was even younger, my mother and all my aunts - and everyone else's mothers and aunts - wore headscarves when riding their bicycles. They kept their hair straight and the rain off, and I suppose the cloth cap was the male equivalent. This was before crash helmets and spandex cycling outfits, of course, which might not have suited my mother and the legion of aunts anyway. If headscarves can catch on again to be seen as practical headgear instead of religious/political statements, you might be doing the world a favour.
--------------------
Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
|
Posted
hey, CK, I never thought of those as a headscarf. see these methods to tie for useful reference, I'm going to try them instead of buying a snood.
headscarf tying
Jade, having read your blog I realise you're saying quite clearly that you want it to be seen as a religious covering, and unfortunately mainstream Christians aren't doing that this century. So you have a choice of looking like a muslim (which feels a bit tricky on several levels) or wearing a catholic manilla or a Brethern square.
I'm sometimes tempted to wear a muslim scarf to see how it feels to be on the receiving end of that assumption, but I don't see how it would express my Christian faith at all. Anymore than wearing a star of David or a Sikh headscarf would.
eta: I wore a trilby at school in the 80s. very, very cool ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 04. November 2012, 14:04: Message edited by: Taliesin ]
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
|
Posted
this is what young women in Palestine wear (Muslims, obviously... though not all Muslims. I met an English woman who moved there last year and converted to Islam, but she doesn't wear other aspects of middle eastern clothes so why adopt that one?)
the woman in this video takes forever and a day but that's for our beneift I presume - there was a kid of about 9 at the swimming pool who whisked her hair up in 30 seconds flat.
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
|
Posted
I don't really get how showing your hair is immodest. Low necklines, showing a lot of skin generally, tight-fitting clothes - I can see why they might not be thought modest, but hair? And why only women's hair?
Posts: 3690 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
|
Posted
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) doncha know that when a dude looks at a girl's hair, he is overwhelmed with desire??
All that sweet smelling cascading loveliness... or in my case, something reminiscent of a hedgehog. (Which is shameful, according to saint Paul.)
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
One of the youtube vloggers I follow is Gothmummi, a Christian woman who wears the hijab for spiritual reasons of modesty. I am considering using them for headcoverings for similar reasons (ie not because of headship or other expired equine topics). I just don't feel like the more standard headcoverings like bandannas etc feel right for me, and bonnets/kapps are out because I am far from Plain. I have made a blog post about it but wanted to know if anyone here had thoughts on a white, obviously Christian woman wearing hijab for spiritual/religious reasons.
I'd say follow your heart on this one if you have prayed and truly feel that God is leading you to take this course.
There are many variations for covering the head/hair.
The only real problem that comes to mind is that people may make assumptions about you that don't correspond with what you are trying to do.
But that is also true of women who are lead to use coverings associated more often with the Amish.
And the upside of this sort of confusion is that it might lead to a good dialogue with someone else.
sabine
--------------------
"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
As for hijabs within Islam, it's not about women being responsible for men's behaviour.
It may not have been what it was originally about...
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I am clearly not in a position to speak for Muslim women but it is not about oppression,
If there's no choice - if there's even a hint of 'you must wear this if you want to be part of our community', 'you must wear this because you are my wife' or even, 'you must wear this if you want to demonstrate that you are honorable and modest' - then it's oppressive.
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
it's about spiritual expression...
How so? Particularly since you have specifically said it's nothing to do with headship. I'm pretty sure the covering up in God's presence thing is about headship, about rank, about hierarchy, (yours with respect to God), just as the removal of male headgear in God's presence is about headship - it's just an elongated cap-doffing to the biggest boss of them all.
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
and ownership of one's own body,
Ownership of one's own body (especially when one is female) is a fairly modern, western, ideal, and as such, is unlikely to be enshrined in ancient Islamic tradition. Or ancient* Christian tradition for that matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
not having it for everyone to objectify.
It seems to me that the body is objectified essentially by becoming 'what it is about' - by being identified with (or confused for) the essential-ness of an individual. So, a perfectly buffed and tanned woman in a bikini is likely to be objectified because her appearance will take precedence over her 'self-ness' in the minds of those who encounter her. However, this is likely to be true of those who wear hijabs or niqabs in a society where such things are not common - the clothing/appearance stands out and thus becomes what people focus on. How is this not objectification? It may not be sexual objectification, sure...
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I don't see how having to have socially-defined perfect hairstyles every day is less oppressive than wearing a headscarf.
Quite. Absolutely. But it's the having to which is oppressive, not anything about the hair itself. So surely you can see that the converse is true in societies where headscarf-wearing is culturally mandated?
*or modern, if you are female.
--------------------
The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
I can think of only 2 rational reasons to wear a head covering. Weather or hair fell out due to cancer. It is possible to make anything mean something in a religious sense.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I've often wondered why, if men are the ones God/Allah has appointed to rule the world and rule over women, they need such aid in ruling over their own impulses. It doesn't inspire confidence.
It's a real Achilles' Knob.
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
Has there been any research on whether men find it more difficult to rule over their own impulses in African countries where young women go around more or less naked? It would be interesting to know whether rape/sexual assault is more or less likely than in countries where women are covered up. Does anyone know?
In some parts of rural/tribal Africa rape is endemic, and almost considered a rite-of-passage for young men (You're not really a man until you rape some woman). I don't know if that coincides with groups with minimal clothing or not.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I can think of only 2 rational reasons to wear a head covering. Weather or hair fell out due to cancer.
How about, you like them? Is it irrational to do things you enjoy?
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
How about, you like them? Is it irrational to do things you enjoy?
It depends. Consider tobacco smoking, heavy drinking, promiscuity, and eating lard. Granted that wearing a hat is not damaging to health, nor harmful in any way, but it can be socially meaningful or problematic. It is banned that the hoods of hooded sweatshirts are worn over the head in all schools, courtrooms, and businesses also have the right to ban them. There has controversy about bans on wearing gang colours and insignia as well.
The problem is, someone is wearing a toque on a winter day (a toque is a brimless woven cap that covers the ears, btw a beanie doesn't cover the ears), and comes in from outside wearing it and keeps it on, e.g., while shopping in a mall. No problem. Is this different than someone wearing religious or gang headgear? If they are in a group? If the group is behaving in ways that bother others? There seem to be limits in some cases.
Now if someone, on their own wears a head covering, probably no-one cares, and it is a quirk or eccentricity. I would see the ascribing of meaning to it to be unusual, and approaching fetishism in some situations.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
I should think that being in a group of people that bothers others is wrong whether or not you're wearing a hat, and the same degree of wrong either way.
What it really sounds like is you don't like hats, and anybody who wears them is, according to you, suspect of criminal behavior at worst, and eccentric bordering on fetishist at best.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
