|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Sparkling Poppies
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
I don't normally watch 'Strictly come dancing' , but did because we had visitors. I noticed that everyone -- competitors, panel and audience alike were wearing poppies with a sparkling effect.
I known this topic gets aired most years, but I was brought up to believe the poppy, which grew in mud and blood, was a symbol of the utter futility of war.
The Haig fund was set up to help the veterans and wounded of WW1, it also restored a modecom of credibility to a General who was widely blamed for needless casualties.
Now here it is some 90 years later with something of a makeover . I get the feeling it is increasingly worn as an emblem of support for foreign wars, and giving it the glitz treatment make one feel as if the idea of war is again becoming glorious like it was Summer of 1914.
Maybe there's nothing wrong with that ?
[ 04. November 2012, 20:24: Message edited by: rolyn ]
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
|
Posted
Maybe it's a pond thing but as I understand it the poppy is used to show support for veterens, not to show the futility of war.
--------------------
On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
It's not to show support of anyone. It's a symbol of remembrance for those who lost their lives in armed conflict.
--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
In Canada, it is as Spike says. Remembering the lost lives, hoping to avoid more.
I was rather offended when I was in Washington DC on a Remembrance Day. They seemed to be focussing almost exclusively on "supporting the troops" in their current wars. Lip service only given to remembrance as I have always understood it.
Thankfully I found a painfully high anglo-catholic church which sang in Latin, as the rain came pouring down. It was among the most beautiful sung eucharists I've attended both for the music and the malicious pleasure at thinking of wet troop supporters and politicians.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
It's not to show support of anyone. It's a symbol of remembrance for those who lost their lives in armed conflict.
That's what I've always understood them to signify. But it does get muddled on this side of the pond, as the poppies are associated with Nov. 11, which for us is Veterans Day, a day to honor veterans. We have Memorial Day to honor those who have died in war in May. Memorial Day has roots in the American Civil War.
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
Regardless of what the day means, choosing to wear a glittery poppy is like wearing a black sequined and rhinestoned dress to a funeral.
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I was rather offended when I was in Washington DC on a Remembrance Day. They seemed to be focussing almost exclusively on "supporting the troops" in their current wars. Lip service only given to remembrance as I have always understood it.
See my post above regarding Veterans Day and Memorial Day in the States. Prior to WWII November 11 was called Armistice Day in the US, as it was in many other countries. It was never called Remembrance Day here.
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
US side of the pond, here.
Never seen glittery poppies. IIRC, the Veterans of Foreign Wars sell regular poppies as buttoniers (sp?). It's done around our Veteran's Day.
Maybe the glittery poppies mean something else? And maybe lots of folks don't know the meaning we're discussing here?
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
I think poppy wearing in general is far more pronounced in the UK.
The last episode of the Graham Norton Show that aired here, people on the show were wearing poppies. Apparently this episode aired 2 November in the UK. Here in Australia I would think it rather odd to see someone wearing a poppy that far ahead of the actual day.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Maybe the glittery poppies mean something else? And maybe lots of folks don't know the meaning we're discussing here?
No - they all come from the same place.
All this extra poppy paraphernalia is a relatively new thing, it started with huge car poppies a few years ago.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moominpappa
Apprentice
# 12044
|
Posted
I notice from the RBL stalls that I saw at the weekend, that they do all sorts of poppy related paraphenalia now. My daughter is very taken with the poppy wristbands (which come in both adult and child sizes).
Is anybody else slightly uncomfortable with the way that poppy wearing is becoming almost compulsory now though? There is a big RBL advert outside where I work which is a picture of a man's chest with a blank space on the left breast in the shape of a poppy; strapline 'are you missing something?' It seems a bit demanding to me, but perhaps I'm just being sensitive.
(As I was probably being when I felt a bit uncomfortable after we shoe-horned the national anthem into last year's rememberance service. Surely the point of rememberance sunday is not about being patriotic?)
--------------------
Abbot Anthony then asked Abbot Joseph 'How would you explain this saying from the scriptures?' and he replied 'I do not know.' Then Abbot Anthony said 'Indeed, Abbot Joseph has found the way, for he has said "I do not know."'
Posts: 16 | From: Hampshire, England. | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moominpappa:
(As I was probably being when I felt a bit uncomfortable after we shoe-horned the national anthem into last year's rememberance service. Surely the point of rememberance sunday is not about being patriotic?)
Indeed. At the end of our Parish Mass on Remembrance Sunday, we sing the National Anthem in place of the final hymn which drives me potty. If we were singing it as a hymn, we'd leave during it but we don't. Which makes it nationalist claptrap.
Thurible
--------------------
"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moominpappa
Apprentice
# 12044
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Indeed. At the end of our Parish Mass on Remembrance Sunday, we sing the National Anthem in place of the final hymn which drives me potty. If we were singing it as a hymn, we'd leave during it but we don't. Which makes it nationalist claptrap.
Ah good; it's not just me then.
--------------------
Abbot Anthony then asked Abbot Joseph 'How would you explain this saying from the scriptures?' and he replied 'I do not know.' Then Abbot Anthony said 'Indeed, Abbot Joseph has found the way, for he has said "I do not know."'
Posts: 16 | From: Hampshire, England. | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
seasick
...over the edge
# 48
|
Posted
I do get concerned at the increasing sense in Britain that wearing a poppy is compulsory for all decent people. Despite what Spike says above, it would be my perception that the lines between remembering the fallen, supporting our troops and supporting the military policies of the government of the day are getting more and more blurred. I'm fine with the first, would want to ask a little bit more about precisely what the second signified and as for the third...
--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
|
Posted
I didn't realise that there was all this extra stuff now; I do find it rather tasteless.
I'm ambivalent about the poppy and remembrance, not because of its essential meaning, but the way that it goes a bit astray towards the militaristic. I am a staunch pacifist of long standing.
But I do try to make the Dawn Service on Anzac Day, and I'll probably head down the road to the Australian War Memorial after church and lay a poppy on the Tomb of the Unknown Australian Soldier.
When I was in the UK I never liked the way that remembrance was handled on Sunday at church. I much preferred to be in a public place at 11am on 11 November, the supermarket even, to join with others in a simple two minute silence. I found the increasing observance on 11 November to be appropriate. But I didn't like the clear you-must-wear-a-poppy rule in the public sphere generally.
In fact, I'm doing the prayers of the people at church on Sunday. That will take great care.
--------------------
I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
|
Posted
Idly browsing a well-known internet auction site, a pop-up ad offered me one of these .
I note that a mighty 10% of the sale price is donated by the seller to the British Legion.
I'm struck by the depressing thought that some poppy wearers may consider their gesture of support (in adorning their precious personhood with the charity 'brand') to be more important than the sum of money they donate for actual charity work.
Or perhaps my narcissism detector has gone a bit hair-trigger again.
--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
|
Posted
I don't like the becoming 'something all decent people do' feeling you get with the wearing of poppies now, either. It is certainly something that has increased over the last few years - I think it is partly, but only partly, to do with Iraq and Afghanistan. I do remember some years ago, it seemed to be dying out somewhat and there was a bit of media outrage, in the way media does outrage - I think that changed something too (that outrage also seemed to increase the number of people observing the 2 minutes silence at 11 o'clock on 11 November in a way they didn't 25-30 years ago - although I like that).
To continue the grumpy old woman theme, poppies seem to go on sale earlier every year - mid to late October this year.
I have always worn a poppy but last year, in a rather futile and childish gesture (because of the concerns above) I deliberately didn't wear one to the Remembrance Day service at church (I don't suppose anyone noticed or cared if they did).
I haven't got one this year yet; I suppose I shall at some stage.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amos
Shipmate
# 44
|
Posted
I too dislike the sense that wearing a poppy, and wearing it from 1 November onwards, is compulsory for all decent people over here.
--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
It seems to me that the buying of a sparkly poppy means you can wear it for the next four decades without ever having to buy another one or make any donation. A way of saying, 'Look at me, I made a fashion accessory out of misery and senseless death'.
I actually don't mind the pressure to get one (not that I have ever worn one). All charities do this type of thing and sadly they have to. It's a way of generating much needed cash. What does sit uncomfortably with me though is the Legion's desire to write liturgy; especially that mawkish nonsense about 'Go home and tell them they died for your freedom'. Well, in church I tend to think that someone else died for my freedom, and I'm really not convinced that every war of the twentieth and twenty-first century has actually had much to do with 'my freedom'.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chapelhead
I am
# 21
|
Posted
There does seem to be something 'wrong' with poppy bling - even if it does make money for the Royal British Legion. The point of a poppy is surely remembrance; the point of a glittery poppy is to look nice. But I suppose blinged-up crosses aren't hard to find, even in liturgical use.
And no doubt the annual Jon Snow* isn't wearing a poppy story will come round again.
*A British newsreader, who, I believe, wears a poppy on November 11 but not before.
[ 05. November 2012, 10:01: Message edited by: Chapelhead ]
--------------------
At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
Posts: 9123 | From: Near where I was before. | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
I'd like to wear a white poppy in remembrance of civilian non-combatants who died, as I have an academic interest in the female doctors and nurses of the First World War. I particularly admire Dr Elizabeth Ross who died in Serbia, and who is buried alongside nurse Mabel Dearmer (first wife of Percy). Their graves aren't maintained by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission because they were civilians.
However, I think I'd get a hostile reaction from the local British Legion if I wore a white poppy to church. Perhaps I should try and see!
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
|
Posted
quote:
'Look at me, I made a fashion accessory out of misery and senseless death'.
It's not just me then.
On the re-use angle, some elderly ladies of my acquaintance save their poppies so as not to have to take one when they make a donation in following years, thus maximising the impact of their donation. Austere habits of a 1940s childhood appear to die hard.
--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
|
Posted
I bought a tiny poppy pin this year, only because I am always losing conventional poppies. However I have every intention of making a donation in future years, if only because I probably won't be able to find this one even next week.
I tend not to attend Remembrance services, if only because I attended many while my children were in Scouts. Also, the church is always packed, so they probably need my space more than my presence.
It's always hard to sort out what is legitimate fund-raising for charities, but there is plenty of scope for the good work the Legion do (and I think they are feeling the pinch like everyone else). So selling sparkly poppies is probably no worse than sending out unsolicited Christmas cards and address labels (Unicef I'm looking at you here)
Mrs. S, promoting ethical fundraising
--------------------
Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny.
Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort
'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
|
Posted
quote:
So selling sparkly poppies is probably no worse than...
Even when the seller keeps 90% of the revenue? See upthread.
--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
quote:
'Look at me, I made a fashion accessory out of misery and senseless death'.
It's not just me then.
On the re-use angle, some elderly ladies of my acquaintance save their poppies so as not to have to take one when they make a donation in following years, thus maximising the impact of their donation. Austere habits of a 1940s childhood appear to die hard.
When I made my donation, I had to turn down extra poppy stuff. Alright I am generous, but then I think I ought to be with the British Legion, although I think it a shame on this country that their work is necessary. If we ask, and my country does on my behalf, people to risk their lives for us, then the least we can do is make sure they are well looked after. However I really rather my country didn't, but as it does and that ain't going to change soon, I think it is important to recognise what we are asking people to do in our name.
Therefore the competitive nationalism that associates greater support with wearing more poppy merchandise I find sticks in my gut. What we give is miniscule beside what is asked and I do not think public display is anyway to behave around an event that must be difficult for many people.
I wear a white poppy simply because I also want to say something of my desire that it was otherwise.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
Another white poppy wearer here.
It seems to me that red poppies are more common than they were two decades ago. Then, there were a lot of white poppies, some worn with the red as well.
It feels like the red poppies are 'winning'. However, much to the annoyance of the British legion, the popular sentiment of most red poppy wearers is to remember civilian and enemy dead in all wars, not just 'our' dead in the two world wars.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
quote:
So selling sparkly poppies is probably no worse than...
Even when the seller keeps 90% of the revenue? See upthread.
Sorry, MiM, I thought we were talking about the official British Legion ones , which cost half that amount with all proceeds to the Legion. My mistake
Mrs. S, in error again
--------------------
Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny.
Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort
'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I think poppy wearing in general is far more pronounced in the UK.
The last episode of the Graham Norton Show that aired here, people on the show were wearing poppies. Apparently this episode aired 2 November in the UK. Here in Australia I would think it rather odd to see someone wearing a poppy that far ahead of the actual day.
Every year it appears to be increasingly competitive over here, it's profoundly depressing. It used to just be an "on the day" thing, or at worst an "on the day and on the Sunday" thing. In the last few years it's spread backwards into the weekend, then the preceding week, and now the preceding fortnight, pretty much.
I have no evidence, but it feels like a media/politics driven arms race (sic) to be Seen To Be Doing The Right Thing, coupled with fear of accusations that you are Off Message. And presumably a desire to win gold at the fake compassion Olympics.
To which end, I'll buy one, and I'll stick it on for church on the Sunday. And it won't see the light of day before or after. And each year I edge ever closer to just making the donation and not taking a poppy, or getting a white one instead. The over-extension of the timescale diminishes rather than emphasises any sense of respect or remembrance AFAIAC.
--------------------
Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
In Canada, it is as Spike says. Remembering the lost lives, hoping to avoid more.
I was rather offended when I was in Washington DC on a Remembrance Day. They seemed to be focussing almost exclusively on "supporting the troops" in their current wars.
Re the U.S. increasing emphasis on "supporting the troops", today's New York Times has an opinion piece of relevance by a professor at the U.S. Naval Academy.
The Permanent Militarization of America
--------------------
God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It seems to me that red poppies are more common than they were two decades ago. Then, there were a lot of white poppies, some worn with the red as well.
It feels like the red poppies are 'winning'.
Whenever I see stastics on red vs white poppies that is what they show. The only thing is I've never seen a white poppy to buy anywhere, and red poppies can be bought in any supermarket, library and many churches. Although as previous posters have stated, I don't think the emphasis should be on wearing the poppy at all.
--------------------
'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
|
Posted
Last year I joined the civic remembrance service in one of the small towns where I have churches.
I have done this for a few years but my first here, and I do find the 'Vow to thee my country', national anthem, and other hymns I had not met before a difficult part of the Official Legion Civic service set up.
Last year I had tracked down (via a friend)a white poppy, I wore 2 red and 1 white twisted together. I was brave but not that brave! As a key figure in the community and upfront in the service I didn't want to be seen to declare war on the Legion, but did want to show that alongside respect for the dead of many wars I also was proclaiming a desire that it not happen again. (If only!)
This year I am at a different place for the Parish event but will be ready for my evening service and freedom to reflect more widely.
I do get to lead the prayers in the morning and they are not preset in the info I have been sent... a lot to consider in them, may not risk extempore.
--------------------
http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
I've never seen a white poppy to buy anywhere, and red poppies can be bought in any supermarket, library and many churches. Although as previous posters have stated, I don't think the emphasis should be on wearing the poppy at all.
Agree.
White poppies are hard to come by. My church orders them in bulk and sells them after mass.
Have to be organised.
On the other hand, one can buy a red poppy and tippex white over them.
That way, you pays your dues and makes a statement as well.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
... Remembering the lost lives, hoping to avoid more. ...
Remembering, yes. Avoiding, no.
The Royal Canadian Legion:
quote:
Since 1921, the Poppy has stood as a symbol of Remembrance, our visual pledge to never forget all those Canadians who have fallen in war and military operations. The Poppy also stands internationally as a “symbol of collective reminiscence”, as other countries have also adopted its image to honour those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice.
The Royal British Legion says,
quote:
The poppy is an instantly recognisable symbol of respect for those who've made the ultimate sacrifice in conflicts past and present. As the nation's custodian of Remembrance, the Legion is committed to helping everyone understand the importance of Remembrance, so those sacrifices are never forgotten.
The final verse of In Flanders Fields:
quote:
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow In Flanders fields.
Nothing there about preventing future wars.
--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
I share much of the opinion expressed above . Each year I find my feelings around Remembrance Day to be split down the middle, teetering somewhere between pride/respect and pity.
I've not come across white Poppies around these parts, but thinking about it the wearing of a white one , (the ideology of pacifism), next to a red one, (the reality of bloodshed), would be apt.
Certainly a far truer expression my personal feelings on this matter than the fashion accessories I witnessed the other night.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
I find the stench of nationalism that surrounds remembrance to be pretty unpleasant. This morning at work my boss read out a list of the number of deaths of British service personnel in Afghanistan since the invasion. No mention of how many Afghans have died, just the list of British dead and the claim that they died doing something for us.
Now, I feel sorry for the poor bastards caught up in that Imperial adventure but they're not there on my behalf and I feel just as sorry for the people they've killed. The difference with the British soldiers is that they volunteered for the job, no-one made them join up (with the possible exception of a few young cons who are "encouraged" to join up instead of prison).
The glorification of war and the idolising of warriors seems worst kind of capitulation to the ruler of this world I can imagine - accepting war means accepting utilitarianism, accepting anything so long as you can find a way of justifying it. I don't blame anyone for that capitulation - I'm not sure I could resist if I were faced with the stark choice of it and it's all too easy to speak in boastful hypotheticals about one's committment to peace while sitting safely behind a thousand years of warfare that brought about the society that one lives in.
It's hard to know what would happen to a society of pacifists without the protection of a non-pacifist one, but it seems likely that death and/or violent subjugation and oppression would follow swiftly. And yet it seems that this is what the first Christians endured for their faith, and what Christ and the Apostles endured also. What can it mean to say we follow Christ if we are yet willing to do violence to those who we believe our enemies?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Arethosemyfeet. I'm nodding like Bob DeNiro. By nature, by 59 years, I'm so patriotic I can barely breathe sometimes. And it will always be thus. A soldier passed me by on Leicester's New Walk last week and I just wanted to say 'God bless you.'. But I didn't.
As for the OP, it's for the fallen. OUR fallen. My fallen.
But the myth of redemptive violence is being ripped from my heart. And it hurts.
But so does Hiroshima. Though it saved a million Allied lives including my father's.
I am now more and more and MORE convinced that we are to be pacifist ... FIST?! ... but not ALWAYS passively.
That we are to lay our lives down to and for our enemies.
And I just bought a fist full of poppies and always will.
I nod because you are terribly right and I have been wrong all my life.
Conflict-ed eh? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[A]nd makes a statement as well.
That is presumably why red poppies will always 'win' against white poppies.
Wearing a red poppy, it seems to me, is about remembering the sacrifice of our war dead, without making a comment about the war in which they were fighting. One could, for instance, believe that the Iraq War was illegal, that Tony Blair and George W. Bush should be put on trial for war crimes and that the entire war was futile and yet still wear a red poppy with pride.
White poppies are new to me but having looked at the website for the Peace Pledge Union, which makes them, it seems clear that they are an outfit with a political point of view, that all war in wrong in any circumstances. That's a rather controversial point of view to which many do no subscribe.
Furthermore, although the PPU is clear about what it wants to get rid of, it isn't so clear about how to achieve this. The only reference to this that I could find says:
quote:
Some ways of bringing pacifism to public attention demand courage and stamina, especially in places where it is regarded as a threat to the vested interests of war. Some people disobey the law by withholding part of their income tax (and paying the money into peace trusts instead) proportional to the percentage of the national budget spent on war. Others risk arrest and imprisonment by making 'direct action' protests: entering prohibited areas occupied by military installations, setting up peace camps on or beside military sites, or disabling machinery intended for use in war.
If this is the PPU's outlook on the world, then I can't imagine any but a small minority wearing their poppies.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
Wearing a white poppy doesn't mean you support everything the PPU says or everything its members do. It simply means that you don't feel it is appropriate to remember only the military dead of one side and not commit yourself to avoiding conflict in the future. That said, regardless of interpretation generalised anti-war sentiment is not a popular opinion, even among churchgoers.
[ 05. November 2012, 21:10: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Hmmm. As long as they suffer, pay for their principles and NEVER use the methods of Babylon against it ... but I'd still have to wear a red poppy. May be a white too ...
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mad Cat
Shipmate
# 9104
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
... Remembering the lost lives, hoping to avoid more. ...
Remembering, yes. Avoiding, no.
The Royal Canadian Legion:
quote:
Since 1921, the Poppy has stood as a symbol of Remembrance, our visual pledge to never forget all those Canadians who have fallen in war and military operations. The Poppy also stands internationally as a “symbol of collective reminiscence”, as other countries have also adopted its image to honour those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice.
The Royal British Legion says,
quote:
The poppy is an instantly recognisable symbol of respect for those who've made the ultimate sacrifice in conflicts past and present. As the nation's custodian of Remembrance, the Legion is committed to helping everyone understand the importance of Remembrance, so those sacrifices are never forgotten.
The final verse of In Flanders Fields:
quote:
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow In Flanders fields.
Nothing there about preventing future wars.
It's always seemed to me that the purpose of remembrance is twofold: to engender vigilance, so we avoid conflict by seeing warning signs early; to engender understanding of the pity and suffering of war, so we avoid being swept up in propaganda or fervour.
That's what I wear my poppy for.
--------------------
Weird and sweary.
Posts: 1844 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
My problem with red poppies is that propaganda and fervour is exactly what they produce. Even though they are not *supposed* to be about glorifying the military, glorification of the military and nauseating nationalism does accompany the poppy day events. It becomes about Our Brave Boys and not about all who died in wars, whether brave or cowards, winners or losers, Allied or Axis, military or civilian. Added to this the many conscientious objectors who died while doing wartime service down the mines or as medics etc, I cannot in good conscience wear a red poppy.
However, I do not wish to intrude on others' grief and make it about my views by wearing a white poppy. I simply wear no poppy.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
It's always seemed to me that the purpose of remembrance is twofold: to engender vigilance, so we avoid conflict by seeing warning signs early; to engender understanding of the pity and suffering of war, so we avoid being swept up in propaganda or fervour.
Unfortunately that purpose was not achieved in the 30s , although to be fair is wasn't this country that got swept up in propaganda second time round. Pretty much a mood of resignation I imagine.
I suspect my view that poppies should worn purely out of pathos came from my parents . Both grew up in the 20's and 30's when the country was haunted by the shadow of WW1 . Then having come through WW2 they had no desire to glorify warfare.
With the threat of a total nuclear annihilation hanging over us from the 60s onwards I think poppies came to represent the sacrifice of long past wars, while being attached to a vague pacifist message re. the absurdity of a modern-day World War.
Now Remembrance day, and the wearing of poppies has found renewed importance maybe we ought not be surprised to see it being taken on board by secular celebrity culture . It's something that seems to be constantly metamorphosing .
Even when the Haig fund was set up 1921, I doubt if the true representation of poppy wearing was actually any more clear than it is today.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
|
Posted
I noticed that change in emphasis around the time of the Falklands Fiasco. People started saying "This isn't just about a war that happened 50 years ago. This is about today's servicemen dying for today's issues." Ever since then I think we've been a bit more keen to see the poppy appeal as being about "our lads" and less about our parents' and grandparents' wars. (And a bit more keen to send our soldiers into combat, it seems to me, though I don't have any stats to back it up.)
--------------------
there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
... Remembering the lost lives, hoping to avoid more. ...
Remembering, yes. Avoiding, no.
The Royal Canadian Legion:
quote:
Since 1921, the Poppy has stood as a symbol of Remembrance, our visual pledge to never forget all those Canadians who have fallen in war and military operations. The Poppy also stands internationally as a “symbol of collective reminiscence”, as other countries have also adopted its image to honour those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice.
quote:
Nothing there about preventing future wars.
Please do not assume that because somebody honours those that did that they EVER want to send somebody else to do that again.
I do not wear any poppy.
I do not support war.
I do support those who went; they went through hell because we screwed up. To me that's a basic social justice tenet.
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
|
Posted
On November 11 here in Australia, politicians and anyone on the telly (newsreaders, sports commentators) wear poppies, but it appears to me that fewer and fewer ordinary people do, though I suspect that many, like me, buy one if they pass a seller and then lose track of it.
At a practical level, fewer and fewer men wear suits, on which a poppy looks appropriate.
No-one at our church, for example, wears a jacket and tie these days, and a poppy doesn’t look quite the same on a t-shirt or sweat-top.
Then there is the problem that those of us (the great majority, I suspect) who are not doctrinaire pacifists, want to express our remembrance of those who suffered and died in all wars, but regard some conflicts as far more justifiable than others, and think of the poppy as specific to WWI ("Flanders field"), a comparatively useless conflict.
We need a more differentiable symbol which would enable us to say, “I wish to honour in particular those who suffered and died while confronting vile ideologies such as Nazism, communism and Islamofascism”.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
I normally buy one on my way up Martin Place in the morning and wear it that day on my suit. I can't recall if the selling is done on Friday when Armistice Day falls on a weekend. If they're on sale tomorrow, I'll buy one as usual. I can't recall seeing anyone wear a poppy for a week or more beforehand. Another difference is that the poppies sold here are furled buds, rather than the open flower which seems the UK practice. Finally, the silence here is for 1 minute only.
At church, we'll have the Last Post, silence and Reveille just before the dismissal. A good half or more of men wear jackets to church, and many of those with ties.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
|
Posted
Forced to travel on the trains this week by a puncture, I notice that the Jubilee line trains all had a poppy transfer stuck on front of them. Also noticed from following other links that the poppy appears on the Telegraph online masthead. (and the other Tory rags too)
--------------------
there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Forced to travel on the trains this week by a puncture, I notice that the Jubilee line trains all had a poppy transfer stuck on front of them. Also noticed from following other links that the poppy appears on the Telegraph online masthead. (and the other Tory rags too)
Not just the "Tory rags". I think newspapers have long displayed a poppy on their masthead at this time of year. Not sure of the point of the ones on trains though. They're all over the DLR, too.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
The Central Line didn't have poppies on Tuesday, I'll check to see if they have any today.
Those sparkly poppies on the costumes for Strictly Come Dancing were silly, and I would bet that they were made by the costume department and no money went to the Royal British Legion, which is the point of those poppies. It's also silly because they're broadcasting the next show this Saturday, 10th November, so poppies will no doubt be worn again.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
