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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Holiday trees
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
This is a pond thing in large part.
Ignoring the fact that ignoring Christmas in New England is just getting back to the colonial traditions there's the history of not tolerating non christianity in the public space in America.
If atheists and those who practice other religions don't want the state to fund religious displays, that's in keeping with the law of the land.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
[tangent]
Can Americans please stop referring to the pond as shorthand for "we do something different to the rest of the world"? Some of us are nowhere near the pond.
It would be nice if you could restrict the word to things that genuinely do only involve North America and Europe. Such as the American Revolution and the one and only voyage of the Titanic.
[/tangent]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
[tangent]
Can Americans please stop referring to the pond as shorthand for "we do something different to the rest of the world"? Some of us are nowhere near the pond.
It would be nice if you could restrict the word to things that genuinely do only involve North America and Europe. Such as the American Revolution and the one and only voyage of the Titanic.
[/tangent]
The OP is from Newcastle (UK) about a story from the US, and the first two references to the "pond" are from Norfolk (UK) and Manchester (UK). Why does it suddenly become objectionable when an American uses the term?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
The second one WAS country-specific, and the first one was from a Purg host. You want me to pick fights with Purg hosts?
(Plus it was about the possible nature of the thread. It did indeed have the potential to be a Pond rant. But then I stepped in and made it suitably global. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) )
EDIT: Oh look, let's just face it. Americans are horrible baby-eating 2-headed monsters and I find them morally reprehensible, that's why.
[ 30. November 2012, 05:03: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I think an acerbic note, from the blessed Stan Freeberg, on the "real" meaning of Christmas, might be in order at this point in time.
As sure as there's an "X" in Christmas, Tiny Tim
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I just watched a discussion on Fox News about the insistence by some groups and even by the Governor of Rhode Island that Christmas trees should be redesignated as 'Holiday trees'.
I cannot be the only person who noticed the similarity between that story and the reported false claims on snopes.com that the Obama White House called their Christmas trees 'Holiday trees' in 2009 and 2011. I could be wrong, but from here this sounds like another 'Winterval' myth.
[ 30. November 2012, 06:12: Message edited by: Alwyn ]
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Anyway, Christmas wouldn't be Christmas without a few really scratchy threads in Purg.
Peace on earth? Good will? There often tends to be a bit more "bah, humbug" about. Something to do with unrest and general economic downtime blues and general paranoia. Bloody Fox News. I need to get back to Youtube and watch Karl Rove exploding on US election night. Now that's a present I can open several times ...
Anyway, you don't know you're born. Why I remember a time when I thought it was a really good Christmas if I got an apple and an orange in my Christmas stocking (that was a home-made, hand knit woolly job). And beforehand, hearing my poor old mum, contemplating an empty purse and a shopping list full of impossible obligations, grumbling "I hate Christmas. I hate it .." Knew just what she meant.
Enough of my blethering. Do feel free to carry on. I'll just contemplate poverty and stables for a little while ..
[ 30. November 2012, 06:12: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by poileplume:
The government of Québec ruled that by law in this province by law a Christmas tree is a Christmas tree and nothing else. (Well actually it is a sapin de noel but that amounts to the same thing.)
I bet my guinea to your gooseberry that is a consequence of Francophone language law and nothing whatsoever to do with the Reason for the Season.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The second one WAS country-specific, and the first one was from a Purg host. You want me to pick fights with Purg hosts?
Thanks for the explanation! It's now perfectly clear to me how writing
quote:
Can people please stop referring to the pond as shorthand for "we do something different to the rest of the world"? Some of us are nowhere near the pond.
would have totally have been picking a fight with Barnabas62(!). Yes, yes, criticizing only Americans for a usage of the word "pond" that made you feel left out was definitely the only way to make your point while avoiding that bloodbath. Planking averted - well done!
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
EDIT: Oh look, let's just face it. Americans are horrible baby-eating 2-headed monsters and I find them morally reprehensible, that's why.
I'm glad to see you finally admitting this, Orfeo. It's the first step to recovery... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Then he's not doing too well this year...
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) for him, ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif) for the ashes
Does this mean the sun won't rise on New Year's Day, and we'll have to find a couple of virgins to sacrifice in a whicker basket?
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
[tangent]
Can Americans please stop referring to the pond as shorthand for "we do something different to the rest of the world"? Some of us are nowhere near the pond.
It would be nice if you could restrict the word to things that genuinely do only involve North America and Europe. Such as the American Revolution and the one and only voyage of the Titanic.
[/tangent]
And on a thread that sets out to bash Americans, we're supposed to care about being nice?!
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Does this mean the sun won't rise on New Year's Day, and we'll have to find a couple of virgins to sacrifice in a whicker basket?
For gods' sake, Anselmina, when you sacrifice to Odin you hang the victim from a tree and stab him with a spear. Wicker baskets? No wonder the climate is all to Hel!
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Taranis, wasn't it?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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barrea
Shipmate
# 3211
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Posted
I'm now 85 but even when I was an infant I knew what a Chrstmas Tree was.
To all who celebrate Christmas it will always be a Christmas Tree,whatever other religions or the non religions call their trees.
Don't worry about it a Christmas tree will always be a Christmas tree.
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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Quite right too barrea, as usual.
If you don't post again before the day, Merry Christmas to you and yours.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Does this mean the sun won't rise on New Year's Day, and we'll have to find a couple of virgins to sacrifice in a whicker basket?
You'd better find them before the Christmas parties start. Otherwise they may no longer be eligible.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
My guess is that the good governor of Rhode Island meant that the official term of the tree would be a "Holiday Tree." I seriously don't think that the governor intends to prosecute anyone who calls it a "Christmas Tree."
It's really much ado about nothing. Christians are of course, free to call it a "Christmas Tree" in the same way, that of course they can still say "Merry Christmas." The issue is whether or not it is appropriate in a pluralist, multi-faith society, whether or not the official and legal term for these things should have religious connotation.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
The official and legal term for a thing should have a religious connotation if the thing it is referring to has a religious connotation.
That's my point. Changing the name doesn't change the nature of the thing AT ALL. It's still a thing with a religious connotation even if you pretend that it doesn't. So why bother? Who is fooled by this? Do they think any particularly militant atheists who are keen to enforce the separation of church and state will be fooled? Do they think the local Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc etc etc suddenly won't recognise the shape/colour/species of the particular tree selected?
It's a remarkably empty gesture.
EDIT: And why stop at asking whether trees are allowed to be officially referred to with religious connotations? I can think of a few other things with religious connotations that get officially referred to. Church. That's a BAD one. Ramadan. Easter. SYNAGOGUE.
[ 30. November 2012, 23:51: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Faux Snooze is owned by a guy named Murdoch. Does this ring any bells on the other side of the pond?
Every year for at least the last 20 years Faux Snooze raises this red herring. They created the War on Christmas to generate advertisement revenue.
The real war on Christmas is the over commercialization of the season. Let's focus on doing neighborly things like the New York policeman giving a pair of new boots to a shoeless homeless man.
BTW, as a taxi driver who works with a lot of Muslim students here in America, whenever I ask them what they are going to do for winter break they ask me what I am going to do for Christmas. They don't seem offended by Christmas. In fact, they are genuinely interested in learning how we celebrate Christmas. And, often times, they ask about the Christian faith.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Faux Snooze is owned by a guy named Murdoch. Does this ring any bells on the other side of the pond?
Murdoch is not particularly cared for by decent people on any side of any pond, lake, river or wet tarmac.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
My guess is that the good governor of Rhode Island meant that the official term of the tree would be a "Holiday Tree." I seriously don't think that the governor intends to prosecute anyone who calls it a "Christmas Tree."
It's really much ado about nothing. Christians are of course, free to call it a "Christmas Tree" in the same way, that of course they can still say "Merry Christmas." The issue is whether or not it is appropriate in a pluralist, multi-faith society, whether or not the official and legal term for these things should have religious connotation.
The perennial Fox "Keep the winter public holiday Christian" is amusing because they cite traditional values and then point to Rhode Island, a place with a long history of religious nonconformity.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
You could always get rid of the tree altogether and have a light installation instead!
And then people will complain about that, or at least the media will whip people up to complain about it...
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Let's focus on doing neighborly things like the New York policeman giving a pair of new boots to a shoeless homeless man.
Alternatively, we could move away from sentimentalising and give local government a year round duty to make sure everyone who needs to be housed, is housed.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Well, HERE is a tree I wouldn't even call a Christmas tree! LOL
It's the 'holiday' tree in a small village not too many miles from Newcastle.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Is the fence to protect it from Charlie Brown?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I just watched a discussion on Fox News about the insistence by some groups and even by the Governor of Rhode Island that Christmas trees should be redesignated as 'Holiday trees'.
What is it with you people in the US and the stupidity of things like this?
Yep, mmm-hmmm, all three hundred and fourteen million of us, from sea to shining sea, think and behave exactly the same. THAT'S A FACT, JACK.
/sarcasm off
As a descendant of one of the first white settlers in Rhode Island, and as someone who managed to get _some_ of the history of that colony dinged into my tiny brain even at three thousand miles' remove near the shores of the Pacific, I would like to give BIG UPS to the Governor for continuing the PROUD Rhode Island and American tradition of religious pluralism and tolerance - however silly I might think this particular brouhaha is.
Not sure what the Blessed Roger's [PBUH] opinions about The Matter of Christmas Celebrations were. It is, of course, well-established (if often forgotten) what the leaders in the Mass. Bay colony thought of Christmas celebrations at the time. Perhaps someone more enlightened on this subject can share information about it.
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Miss Madrigal
Shipmate
# 15528
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Posted
But should we put a Christmas tree in the chancel? We've got one up and glinting and my jokes about ecumenism now allowing us to embrace and worship wood spirits seems to be seen as grumpiness.
Posts: 79 | From: The Bit In The Middle | Registered: Mar 2010
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Miss Madrigal
Shipmate
# 15528
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Posted
Thank you Curiosity Killed ...
Posts: 79 | From: The Bit In The Middle | Registered: Mar 2010
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The official and legal term for a thing should have a religious connotation if the thing it is referring to has a religious connotation.
That's my point. Changing the name doesn't change the nature of the thing AT ALL. It's still a thing with a religious connotation even if you pretend that it doesn't. So why bother? Who is fooled by this? Do they think any particularly militant atheists who are keen to enforce the separation of church and state will be fooled? Do they think the local Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc etc etc suddenly won't recognise the shape/colour/species of the particular tree selected?
It's a remarkably empty gesture.
EDIT: And why stop at asking whether trees are allowed to be officially referred to with religious connotations? I can think of a few other things with religious connotations that get officially referred to. Church. That's a BAD one. Ramadan. Easter. SYNAGOGUE.
So you're not allowed to have a secular tree? It has to be a Christmas tree and everyone should just pretend to be a Christian. Otherwise Fox News and Orfeo are going to smack you for watering down their appropriation of German pagan traditions.
If you're going to insist in holding your religious celebrations in the public square at goverment expense, don't be surprised if non Christians use the celebration for their own purposes.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The official and legal term for a thing should have a religious connotation if the thing it is referring to has a religious connotation.
That's my point. Changing the name doesn't change the nature of the thing AT ALL. It's still a thing with a religious connotation even if you pretend that it doesn't. So why bother? Who is fooled by this? Do they think any particularly militant atheists who are keen to enforce the separation of church and state will be fooled? Do they think the local Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc etc etc suddenly won't recognise the shape/colour/species of the particular tree selected?
It's a remarkably empty gesture.
EDIT: And why stop at asking whether trees are allowed to be officially referred to with religious connotations? I can think of a few other things with religious connotations that get officially referred to. Church. That's a BAD one. Ramadan. Easter. SYNAGOGUE.
So you're not allowed to have a secular tree? It has to be a Christmas tree and everyone should just pretend to be a Christian. Otherwise Fox News and Orfeo are going to smack you for watering down their appropriation of German pagan traditions.
If you're going to insist in holding your religious celebrations in the public square at goverment expense, don't be surprised if non Christians use the celebration for their own purposes.
I never said anything about 'not being allowed' to have a secular tree, but why on earth does your secular tree look exactly like a Christian tree if the purpose is to be not-a-Christian tree?
That's my point. I would have thought the sketch made that blindingly obvious, but apparently not.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I never said anything about 'not being allowed' to have a secular tree, but why on earth does your secular tree look exactly like a Christian tree if the purpose is to be not-a-Christian tree?
That's my point. I would have thought the sketch made that blindingly obvious, but apparently not. [/QB]
Because it's easier to relabel things for your own purposes than build new ones. Why is a Christmas tree exactly like a Yule tree? Do you think the Finnish Christmas Goat is an original idea?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Because it's easier to relabel things for your own purposes than build new ones.
In which case, you can fully expect to receive continued flak from people who recognise the thing and remember its old label.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Because it's easier to relabel things for your own purposes than build new ones.
In which case, you can fully expect to receive continued flak from people who recognise the thing and remember its old label.
Do you hear much from pagans about your appropriation of the winter solstice tree?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Because it's easier to relabel things for your own purposes than build new ones.
In which case, you can fully expect to receive continued flak from people who recognise the thing and remember its old label.
Do you hear much from pagans about your appropriation of the winter solstice tree?
The Christmas tree isn't an appropriation from the pagans. It's a Christian invention. It comes from the medieval mystery plays and originally portrayed the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden.
We talked about this last year.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
[The Christmas tree isn't an appropriation from the pagans. It's a Christian invention. It comes from the medieval mystery plays and originally portrayed the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden.
We talked about this last year. [/QB]
I didn't know that the Garden of Eden had evergreen trees.
"The Holiday tree isn't an appropriation from the Christmas tree. It comes from the Department Store Window Displays for Holiday Shopping Season."
You see how it's done? Once you appropriate it, you file off the serial numbers. Then you can be indignant about someone else appropriating it from you.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The garden of Eden had every kind of tree. How else did Noah bring two of each on the arc?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I didn't know that the Garden of Eden had evergreen trees.
It had plastic evergreen tress, don'cha know? The grass was made from astro-turf.
quote:
"The Holiday tree isn't an appropriation from the Christmas tree. It comes from the Department Store Window Displays for Holiday Shopping Season."
You see how it's done? Once you appropriate it, you file off the serial numbers. Then you can be indignant about someone else appropriating it from you.
Except, if I recall last year's thread correctly, there's no indication pagans in Europe had anything like a Christmas tree as we know it. It doesn't appear in written accounts as far as I can remember. But Trees of Life in mystery plays do appear.
But your attitude is the same reason people can take the burrito and start calling it a wrap, so they can pretend the Mexicans had nothing to do with it when they sell it at their restaurants.
Likewise, call it a holiday tree and pretend Christianity had nothing to do with it. Of course, they wouldn't dream of doing the same thing with the menorah and calling it a "winter candelabra" or something. They know they couldn't get away with that.
[ 03. December 2012, 05:34: Message edited by: Pancho ]
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Problems. Tree of life plays are medieval in origin so your version does not wash. Their is no direct evidence of either proposition.
As far as wraps v. burritos, while I am not arguing that some may do what you suggest; Mexico is not the only place which uses flat, cooked, non-leavened mixtures of grain and water.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Problems. Tree of life plays are medieval in origin so your version does not wash. Their is no direct evidence of either proposition.
As far as wraps v. burritos, while I am not arguing that some may do what you suggest; Mexico is not the only place which uses flat, cooked, non-leavened mixtures of grain and water.
I'll have to hunt down my links from last year but essentially the trees migrated from the mystery plays to the home after the middle ages, the association with Christmas comes because plays depicting the Fall Of Man were celebrated around Christmas time. Fun fact: Adam and Eve are saints in the Catholic Church and are remembered on December 24, Christmas Eve. You can read about it here: Today is the feast day of Adam and Eve
The analogy with burritos isn't perfect (I know Mexico isn't the only place that uses flat non-leavened bread, I've brought this up in Eccles when some have argued hosts aren't "real" bread, and other people eat food with fillings) but eh, it's close enough.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Wasn't the northern European pagan tree the oak and the mistletoe growing upon it? That would certainly make a good solid Yule log that would be more likely to burn for the 12 days of Yule, unlike a pine tree which has quicker burning sap and isn't a wood you use for fires, given any choice.
The legend of St Boniface I linked to earlier had him cutting down the pagan oak and finding a fir tree.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Pancho: Your post caught my eye (re Adam and Eve), and I must tell you that it comes as a surprise to this Catholic.
It certainly isn't celebrated in the Canadian Church to my knowledge.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
More to the point, I cannot find any Catholic liturgical calendar, of any vintage (even pre-Tridentine), which has such a feast on Dec 24. I've never heard of this before now, and to be honest I'm rather skeptical. Are there any hard sources on the subject (i.e., that such an observance exists and/or was ever celebrated liturgically)?
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Pancho: Your post caught my eye (re Adam and Eve), and I must tell you that it comes as a surprise to this Catholic.
A lot of Latin Catholics themselves don't realize we hold many of the Old Testament figures to be saints. On the other hand Eastern Christians (Catholic and Orthodox) are aware of it. The reason I happened to know is because I happend to have a book of Saints when I was little that had a page dedicated to Adam and Eve. I remember it also had a page for Abraham (and I think Sarah). Fr. Z explains a little on his blog about ST. Samuel the Prophet:
quote:
Many of the great figures of the Old Testament are considered by Holy Church to be saints. They are not on the Latin Church’s universal calendar – except for a few of those mighty ones who stand astride the two covenants, whom you could name if you tried – but they are in the Roman Martyrology.
One reason they aren't celebrated in Canada is because they aren't on the General Roman Calendar, but most saints aren't either and even the Roman Martyrology doesn't contain all the saints recognized by the Catholic Church. Some saints are not on the General Calendar but nonetheless appear on the local calendars of countries, dioceses, and orders. For example, St. Elijah the Prophet is commemorated on the calendar of the Carmelite Order for July 20. There was also a variation in calendars between different places back in medieval times when the mystery plays were celebrated and before the institution of the Tridentine Calendar and the Roman Martyrology during the 16th century.
Plus, at different times different saints and feasts have been removed and restored to different calendars. For example, there is the feast of the Holy Name of Jesus that was removed from the general calendar with the reforms of 1969 but was restored to that calendar with the 2002 edition of the Roman Missal.
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
More to the point, I cannot find any Catholic liturgical calendar, of any vintage (even pre-Tridentine), which has such a feast on Dec 24.
I've never heard of this before now, and to be honest I'm rather skeptical. Are there any hard sources on the subject (i.e., that such an observance exists and/or was ever celebrated liturgically)?
A saint doesn't have to be commemorated with a special Mass and his or her day doesn't have to hold the rank of an important feast or it be celebrated commonly at all times for a saint to be recognized officialy as a saint, or for that saint to have been celebrated at some time in some places among some people, This has been true for many if not most recognized saints. Think of all the local saints in Italy or France or Britain for that matter that most of us haven't heard of. If Wikipedia is correct, even the Roman Martyrology itself recognizes it doesn't contain the names of all the recognized saints.
I don't have time (or energy!) to do extensive searches but the various references I've found online about the Christmas Tree, it's probable origin in the medieval Mystery Plays/Paradise Plays and their Paradise Trees all refer to December 24 as the name day of Adam and Eve as did my childhood book of saints. It is why these plays about the Garden of Paradise were held specifically at Christmas time and not another time of year when the story of the Fall might also have been appropriate. I suppose books on those Paradise Plays and medieval drama would contain specific references. Also keep in mind what I wrote above of the differing calendars in different places in medieval times and the different reforms they went through.
For the present day the generally reliable Patron Saints Index gives entries for Adam and Eve for December 24 here and here. Currently there is no official translation in English of the Roman Martyrology online or in print but Fr. Z translated a bit of it for December 24 right here:
quote:
The commemoration of all the holy forefathers of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham, the son of Adam, namely of the fathers, who pleased God and were found to be just also according to the faith of the dead, having received none of the promises fulfilled, but regarding them and greeting them from afar, from which the Christ was born according to the flesh, who is blessed God above all things forever.
This applies to Adam and Eve. The "forefathers" of Christ mentioned in the geneologies of Christ in the Gospels include both men and women. The one from St. Matthew is proclaimed at the Vigil Mass for Christmas Eve although that one only goes back to Abraham, if I recall correctly. The one from St. Luke goes back to Adam.
A similar commemoration of Adam exists on the Byzantine Calendar. From Orthodoxwiki:
quote:
"The Sunday of the Holy Forefathers is the Sunday that falls between December 11-17, the second Sunday before the Nativity. The ancestors of Christ according to the flesh are remembered on this Sunday of the Nativity Fast.
All the great Fathers and Mothers and Prophets of the Old Testament, starting with Adam..."
The article quotes a hymn for that Sunday:
quote:
Through faith You justified the Forefathers, betrothing through them the Church of the gentiles. These saints exult in glory,..."
For the Roman Rite we should also take into account the Office of Readings of Holy Saturday. It assigns a homily from the 4th century which describes the ancient Christian belief in the Harrowing of Hell and it explicitly mentions Adam being led into Heaven:
quote:
He has gone to search for our first parent, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death,
he has gone to free from sorrow the captives Adam and Eve, he who is both God and the son of Eve. The Lord approached them bearing the cross, the
weapon that had won him the victory. At the sight of him Adam, the first man he had created, struck his breast in terror and cried out to everyone:
“My Lord be with you all”. Christ answered him: “And with your spirit”. He took him by the hand and raised him up, saying: “Awake, O sleeper, and
rise from the dead, and Christ will give you light”.
quote:
Rise, let us leave this place. The enemy led you out of the earthly paradise. I will not restore you to that paradise, but I will enthrone you in heaven. I forbade you the tree that was only a symbol of life, but see, I who am life itself am now one with you. I appointed cherubim to guard you as slaves are guarded, but now I make them worship you as God. The throne formed by cherubim awaits you, its bearers swift and eager.
The bridal chamber is adorned, the banquet is ready, the eternal dwelling places are prepared, the treasure houses of all good things lie open. The kingdom of heaven has been prepared for you from all eternity.
(source)
Here we have the Liturgy of the Hours, the official prayer of the Church, describing Adam and Eve's entry into heaven.
All of this is just a very long-winded explanation of why there's a connection between Adam and Eve and Christmas and of the Christian origins and symbolism of the Christmas Tree. Apologies to the hosts for so many links.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
I keep coming back to one thought on this.. that taking a Christmas tree, re labeling it a Holiday
Tree really appeases no one. Christians may be unhappy with the "secularization" of a symbol they consider theirs. non-Christians are not appeased, because they recognize a re-named christian symbol when they see one. I think the only ones appeased are certain Christians who WANT to appease both sides, but don't quite know how to go about it.
yes, the practice of bringing greenery into the home in midwinter probably is non-Christian in origin, but that shouldn't matter... the Christmas holiday has much in it (including the timing) that was borrowed from outside Christianity.. so what? it's been morphed, modified, and adopted by Christians for quite some time now, and more importantly it's generally recognized as being associated with a Christian holiday by Christians and non Christians alike in most of the world.
It's a Christmas tree. My non-Christian friends are not fooled by the name change. If the goal is to be inclusive and not offend other faiths, don't use a cone shaped, decorated green thing by whatever name. use something with NO religious association at all, or else multiple items associated with each of the different holidays.
Unless you are in the former USSR. Then the tree is a "New Years Tree", all religious association having been stripped from it nearly a century ago. It is now generally recognized as being specific to the secular holiday of New Years, and generally accepted as such even by Christians there, the tree being a relatively new addition to the Christmas celebration in most of those countries anyway.
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I think -
'What is it with you people in the US and the stupidity of things like this?'
could reasonably be construed as such.
I don't think that it would have been reasonable to conclude from that quote that Mudfrog was railing against 300 million people.
The classy response would have been "Oh, right. I now understand".
Posts: 1124 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: Dec 2008
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