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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Holiday trees
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I just watched a discussion on Fox News about the insistence by some groups and even by the Governor of Rhode Island that Christmas trees should be redesignated as 'Holiday trees'.
What is it with you people in the US and the stupidity of things like this?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
What is it with people and xmas trees? Remove Jesus from the festival and you can get away with it, but remove a tree - then you're causing mass religious offense.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
It goes with the removal of manger (or nativity) scenes from public spaces. Why do people want to get rid of these things?
Do they really believe the followers of non-Christian faiths are offended?
Or is this just the intolerance of easily-offended atheists?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Are you seriously telling me that a tree is so integral to the Christian festival that it cannot be taken by public officials to by a non-religious symbol of respect for other religious winter festivals?
Remind me of where the tree had any significant part to play in the nativity.
[ 29. November 2012, 07:34: Message edited by: the long ranger ]
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Tubifex Maximus
Shipmate
# 4874
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
What is it with people and xmas trees? Remove Jesus from the festival and you can get away with it, but remove a tree - then you're causing mass religious offense.
I can see what Mudfrog's saying here; I like Christmas trees and I like them to be called Christmas trees but I don't think I'd be prepared to man the barricades over this one. We get stories about "Christmas has been banned to avoid offending muslims" each year and they always turn out to be bullshit pumped out by people who want us to be shocked and outraged.
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Sit down, Oh sit down, sit down next to me.
Posts: 400 | From: Manchester | Registered: Aug 2003
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It goes with the removal of manger (or nativity) scenes from public spaces. Why do people want to get rid of these things?
Because we share public space with a multitude of other religions and views. Why should the state be seen to be paying for the public symbols of one?
I happen to know that large tree decorations in many British towns are largely funded by non-Christians (and often Hindu, Muslim and Sikh businessmen) involved in the Lions club. They use it as both a fundraiser and a way for the public to commemorate their relatives who have recently died.
I don't see the problem here - you want a tree, you've got a tree. Different people use it as a symbol for different things, get over it.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubifex Maximus:
I can see what Mudfrog's saying here; I like Christmas trees and I like them to be called Christmas trees but I don't think I'd be prepared to man the barricades over this one. We get stories about "Christmas has been banned to avoid offending muslims" each year and they always turn out to be bullshit pumped out by people who want us to be shocked and outraged.
I fucking hate them. So what?
Walk around any British town, the tree decorations are no longer called Christmas trees. End of story.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It goes with the removal of manger (or nativity) scenes from public spaces. Why do people want to get rid of these things?
Because we share public space with a multitude of other religions and views. Why should the state be seen to be paying for the public symbols of one?
The one I saw being banned was actually funded by churches.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The one I saw being banned was actually funded by churches.
Oh, that's ok then. And should a large church suddenly decide that Koran burning is an essential part of their worship of Christmas, you'd be ok with that in the public square too?
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Walk around any British town, the tree decorations are no longer called Christmas trees. End of story.
Not true.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The one I saw being banned was actually funded by churches.
Oh, that's ok then. And should a large church suddenly decide that Koran burning is an essential part of their worship of Christmas, you'd be ok with that in the public square too?
Er, don't be stupid. And don't insult the 99.9% of churches who would never countenance that kind of behaviour.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
There's a balance on this one, of course. I tend to take anything Fox News outputs with a large pinch of salt - or at least something to counter-balance its particular agenda. But then, all media has an agenda.
I can't speak for the US but a lot of the scare-mongering about political correctness gone mad and so forth does tend to be whipped up by the likes of the Torygraph and Daily Heil over here.
And a lot of these stories have been found to be fairly vapid when subject to closer scrutiny.
That said, there is a kernal of genuine concern in there. The problem is, it then gets over-egged by the likes of the Heil, Torygraph and Faux-News.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
quote:
I just watched a discussion on Fox News ...
Here's your problem. As I understand it, Fox News is the TV equivalent of the Daily Wail.
I would be very surprised indeed to find that the inhabitants of Rhode Island have stopped calling their trees Christmas trees, whatever the governor may think. Language doesn't work like that.
And actually, if they did would it be so terrible? Is it really so bad if the secular world stops calling their midwinter holiday Christmas? Doesn't it really leave us free to celebrate the True Meaning without having it confused with the secular feast?
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Hang about. First Mudfrog says he is watching an item on Fix* News (but let's not judge him for that alone) about the naming - not banning - of seasonal decorations. On this basis he charitably concludes all - yes, all 300 million - Americans are stupid.
A little later he claims to have witnessed the actual banning of a church-sponsored tree. Is this still the stupid Americans? Or is this in Britain, which obviously puts us in no position to cavil with how they do things Over There.
Plus I am disappointed in the lack of respect to Allfather Odin in all of this.
*typo, but true.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The one I saw being banned was actually funded by churches.
Oh, that's ok then. And should a large church suddenly decide that Koran burning is an essential part of their worship of Christmas, you'd be ok with that in the public square too?
Er, don't be stupid. And don't insult the 99.9% of churches who would never countenance that kind of behaviour.
If only 0.1% of churches would countenance such behaviour why get so upset about it? Didn't you get a seat on the bus this morning?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Tubifex Maximus
Shipmate
# 4874
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubifex Maximus:
I can see what Mudfrog's saying here; I like Christmas trees and I like them to be called Christmas trees but I don't think I'd be prepared to man the barricades over this one. We get stories about "Christmas has been banned to avoid offending muslims" each year and they always turn out to be bullshit pumped out by people who want us to be shocked and outraged.
I fucking hate them. So what?
Walk around any British town, the tree decorations are no longer called Christmas trees. End of story.
Can you show any evidence that tree decorations are no longer called Christmas trees in any British town. The town centre where I live calls Christmas Christmas and it starts in mid October.
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Sit down, Oh sit down, sit down next to me.
Posts: 400 | From: Manchester | Registered: Aug 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Same here: the good burghers of Fareham turned on the (extremely tacky and jaded) Christmas lights last weekend.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Firenze: quote:
Plus I am disappointed in the lack of respect to Allfather Odin in all of this.
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) Wouldn't it be disrespectful to worship Odin with fir trees? I thought his special tree was the ash...
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Then he's not doing too well this year...
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) for him, ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif) for the ashes
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The one I saw being banned was actually funded by churches.
Oh, that's ok then. And should a large church suddenly decide that Koran burning is an essential part of their worship of Christmas, you'd be ok with that in the public square too?
Er, don't be stupid. And don't insult the 99.9% of churches who would never countenance that kind of behaviour.
If only 0.1% of churches would countenance such behaviour why get so upset about it? Didn't you get a seat on the bus this morning?
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
The % wasn't a scientific figure for goodness' sake - the point I was making was that this Koran burning isn't exactly what Christians do. I've heard of one (American) pastor who has done this. Hardly measurable i'd say on the percentage scale of what Christians do.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
On this basis he charitably concludes all - yes, all 300 million - Americans are stupid.
A little later he claims to have witnessed the actual banning of a church-sponsored tree. Is this still the stupid Americans?
I'm sorry; where have I called 300 million Americans stupid?
And secondly the 'church-sponsored' item was not a tree but a manger scene.
I think you need to read properly.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I'm sorry; where have I called 300 million Americans stupid?
I think -
'What is it with you people in the US and the stupidity of things like this?'
could reasonably be construed as such.
quote:
I think you need to read properly.
And I think you need to put together a coherent and evidenced argument as to why, if the Christian appropriation of Yule is losing its grip, this is anything to be concerned about.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
OK, several things:
First, I was talking about Christmas Trees, y'know the subject of this thread. Go and look at one of the large Lions trees in town centres and shopping centres. They're not called Christmas trees.
Second, Mudfrog, I'm not asking you whether you like burning Korans. In the same way that I hate all Christmas decorations but have to tolerate the overspending by public bodies on ridiculous tat, I'm asking you whether you are comfortable with other religions having their spot in the public square (if, as I specified, there is significant local support for that view). Clearly you don't, largely because you want a free-ride for your faith that you're not prepared to extend to anyone else.
Third, the public space is moving away from calling the festival time Christmas, and so it should. The very idea that a public body should pay for some stupid crib scene, or come to that allow a local religious body to put it up in the public space, is ridiculous. Your religion is not the only one people care about, get over it.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I suppose this thread is somewhere between a serious discussion and a Pond rant.
Mudfrog, a personal thought. I think you were looking for a serious discussion but, as well as the unfortunate final sentence, the reference to Fox News won't have done your position much good on the other side of the Pond. TBH, it didn't do a lot for me, either. Fox News is Faux News in my book.
On what I think was your point.
I think multicultural respect indicates that if you want Christmas trees on public display, carols and Hallelujah flashmobs in shopping centres, nativity scenes in shop windows etc, then space should be given for any analagous public displays for Hanukkah, Diwali etc etc.
Provided they don't contain a message that all other religions are bullshit, or offend general purpose public display or peaceful assembly laws, I'm pretty comfortable with diverse public displays. I'd rather everyone had space to have a go, rather than no one. It doesn't make me antsy if it's not all Christian.
There may be US Constitutional issues at work here, I suppose. But when it comes to celebrations, I reckon in principle that people should lighten up, not be po-faced about diversity.
Make room! Make room!
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
I see no evidence that the "public space" is moving away from calling Christmas "Christmas". I am not sure why the long ranger is encouraging Fox News's paranoia.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I see no evidence that the "public space" is moving away from calling Christmas "Christmas". I am not sure why the long ranger is encouraging Fox News's paranoia.
Funnily enough I don't think it is paranoia. Not that I watch Fox News..
If the public square decides to spend money on religious festivals, they should spend the money on any religious festival that tax-payers feel like celebrating in proportion to the number of people who want to celebrate in that way.
In fact, I think that this is a total waste of money and that no taxpayer money should be spent in such ways and that those who regulate the public square have better things to be doing than trying to decide which religious holidays should have public support and in which way.
If religious bodies want to decorate inside (or, most of the time, outside) their own space, then bully for them. Don't inflict it on everyone else.
You might find burning Korans offensive, I find spending public money on ridiculous fairy lights to be farcical. One fortunate thing about the financial problems is that we probably won't have to put up with this for many more Decembers.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Mudfrog has a point. I don't really think those who disagree with him do.
Christmas is our festival. Hanukah is Jewish. Ramadan is Muslim. Divali is Hindu. Christmas trees have no theological connection with Christmas, but have accreted to it. I have no idea which bits of other peoples' festivals are theologically significant and which aren't. I accept though that getting drunk and wearing peculiar outfits is part of Purim, even if I don't know why and suspect it is not theologically essential to the festival.
It would be wrong for me to object to the public displays of other legitimate faiths. This may seem inconsistent to some Shipmates, but I also think that it is reasonable in C21 conditions to require the killing of animals to be done on private property.
Once you put up a Christmas tree, it is a Christmas tree. If a local authority objects to calling it a Christmas tree, then it should not put it up. Nor should it forbid anyone else from paying for one unless they call it something else. Likewise a Menorah is a Menorah, not a festival candlestick.
A few years ago, my employer's Equalities department circulated a memo, shortly before it started, explaining Ramadan to everybody. It must have been written by a Moslem colleague, as it contained 'blessed be he's'.
In response, we wrote a memo to be circulated explaining what Christmas is and asked for it also to be circulated. We were never directly refused, but it didn't happen. However, in subsequent years, the Ramadan one wasn't circulated either.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Christmas is our festival.
It's just that the little word "our" is not inclusive. It doesn't for example include Mo Farah. Remember "our Mo"? Lovely, charming, hardworking, humble family man who did such wondrous things for Team GB at the Olympics. Mo is a devout Muslim.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Mudfrog has a point. I don't really think those who disagree with him do.
Go on..
quote:
Christmas is our festival. Hanukah is Jewish. Ramadan is Muslim. Divali is Hindu. Christmas trees have no theological connection with Christmas, but have accreted to it. I have no idea which bits of other peoples' festivals are theologically significant and which aren't. I accept though that getting drunk and wearing peculiar outfits is part of Purim, even if I don't know why and suspect it is not theologically essential to the festival.
It would be wrong for me to object to the public displays of other legitimate faiths. This may seem inconsistent to some Shipmates, but I also think that it is reasonable in C21 conditions to require the killing of animals to be done on private property.
Agree with you up to here... but then..
quote:
Once you put up a Christmas tree, it is a Christmas tree. If a local authority objects to calling it a Christmas tree, then it should not put it up. Nor should it forbid anyone else from paying for one unless they call it something else. Likewise a Menorah is a Menorah, not a festival candlestick.
Wait... a tree which has no theological significance and no long historical pedigree with Christianity cannot be attached to another religion because.. you say so? Do you know that the use of lights is, well, y'know a Hindu thing? Who the fuck are you to decide whether other religions can put up trees full of lights to celebrate their festival of.. light.. and not want to call it a sodding Christmas tree? Nobody, that's who. Your position is totally incomprehensible.
quote:
A few years ago, my employer's Equalities department circulated a memo, shortly before it started, explaining Ramadan to everybody. It must have been written by a Moslem colleague, as it contained 'blessed be he's'.
Or someone who wanted to refer to the Muslim sensibility without causing offense to Muslims.
quote:
In response, we wrote a memo to be circulated explaining what Christmas is and asked for it also to be circulated. We were never directly refused, but it didn't happen. However, in subsequent years, the Ramadan one wasn't circulated either.
Oh diddums, a religion which has had the top headline in the secular sphere suddenly finds that most people don't actually give a fuck any more and starts having a go at a minority religion. Really.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
Am I the only one who's feeling all ![[Confused]](confused.gif) about this?
Here in our neck of the woods, we have a Christmas tree (although shrub might be more accurate...) whose lights were turned on last Friday.
The Greater London Authority has a whole page about the lighting of the Christmas tree they get from Norway.
Here's a page from Manchester City Council about the turning on of their Christmas lights including reference to a... wait for it... Christmas tree (see near the bottom of the page)!
Hull boasts of its Christmas tree.
(apologies for all the links!)
Whether you think it's a good thing or not, the idea that (this side of the pond) the word "Christmas" isn't being used to describe Christmas trees or the wider celebrations of the up-coming festivities is simply not true. Whether Christians like it or not, "Christmas" isn't simply the religious festival - it's the whole shebang including the shopping, the parties, the lights, the hangovers... the whole works.
And by all accounts, the word "Christmas" is not being stamped out by local authorities. So I don't quite get a) why the long ranger is insisting that it is; b) why he's getting so worked up that it should be or c) what all this has got to do with Mudfrog's OP, which was about the States.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Christmas is our festival.
It's just that the little word "our" is not inclusive. It doesn't for example include Mo Farah. Remember "our Mo"? Lovely, charming, hardworking, humble family man who did such wondrous things for Team GB at the Olympics. Mo is a devout Muslim.
I'm speaking as a Christian, not as a citizen of any polity. I am a Christian. Christmas is my festival. Ramadan is not. Mo Farah is a Muslim. Christmas is not his festival. Ramadan is.
There is no basis on which Christmas should rearrange itself to be inclusive of Muslims, however worthy they may be, nor for matter Richard Dawkins or Polly Toynbee. Nor do I expect Ramadan to be inclusive of me.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
you know, I'm really starting to think that the Soviets got one thing right, if for the wrong reasons: moving all the non religious, marginally Christian aspects of the holiday to New Years.
For most of my life I had a problem with that, because it was done primarily to eliminate the religious observance. It was a reaction (on my part) to the whole Communist anti-religious position (and communism in general.. given my family history). But now that Russia has, at least officially, been free from that yoke for over two decades, the association with communism has faded, and I can look at things more from a "what makes sense now" rather than "what the reason was for THEM doing it, and association with all the other evil they caused".
So, if I had my way, I would encourage everyone to shift the non-religious aspects of the "Christmas" holiday to New Years, when everyone of every religion and none can participate equally, without any problems of religious association, enjoying "new years trees", snowmen, lights, gifts, food, alcohol.... and leave the religious holidays (all of them) to focus on whatever it is they are commemorating: birth of Christ, miracle of lights, whatever Kwanza is.
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
It looks to me that Ebenezer Long Ranger just doesn't like Christmas PERIOD (US) or FULL STOP (UK)
His bad language, sarcasm and anger seem to betray a rather sad and angry little man who feels he has to shout and scream because, actually, no one really cares what he says and he is just trying in vain to get his little rant heard.
Merry Christmas The Long Ranger ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Christmas is our festival.
It's just that the little word "our" is not inclusive. It doesn't for example include Mo Farah. Remember "our Mo"? Lovely, charming, hardworking, humble family man who did such wondrous things for Team GB at the Olympics. Mo is a devout Muslim.
I'm speaking as a Christian, not as a citizen of any polity. I am a Christian. Christmas is my festival. Ramadan is not. Mo Farah is a Muslim. Christmas is not his festival. Ramadan is.
If Mo Farah wants to celebrate Christmas that's fine by me. Telling him Christmas isn't his is arrogant beyond my belief, even if it isn't beyond yours. Christmas is for everyone, as Christ is.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It looks to me that Ebenezer Long Ranger just doesn't like Christmas PERIOD (US) or FULL STOP (UK)
His bad language, sarcasm and anger seem to betray a rather sad and angry little man who feels he has to shout and scream because, actually, no one really cares what he says and he is just trying in vain to get his little rant heard.
Merry Christmas The Long Ranger
I was addressing your post, the issues of which you have refused to discuss.
Instead you attack me. Shame on you.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It looks to me that Ebenezer Long Ranger just doesn't like Christmas PERIOD (US) or FULL STOP (UK)
His bad language, sarcasm and anger seem to betray a rather sad and angry little man who feels he has to shout and scream because, actually, no one really cares what he says and he is just trying in vain to get his little rant heard.
Merry Christmas The Long Ranger
I was addressing your post, the issues of which you have refused to discuss.
Instead you attack me. Shame on you.
Take it to Hell then - where your unwarranted, unwelcome and offensive bad language belongs. I find it hard to discuss something with anyone with your attitude - in fact I don't see why I should have to.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I'm sorry; where have I called 300 million Americans stupid?
I think -
'What is it with you people in the US and the stupidity of things like this?'
could reasonably be construed as such.
Sorry, a bit clumsy: I actually had in mind the atheist groups and the Governor who was promoting this stuff, and the city authorities who give in to them.
From what I've read, the ordinary US citizens are dead against the 'Holiday tree' stuff.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Take it to Hell then - where your unwarranted, unwelcome and offensive bad language belongs. I find it hard to discuss something with anyone with your attitude - in fact I don't see why I should have to.
I don't want to take it to hell, I want to address your OP, which I feel that I have. I have not personally attacked you, I have attacked the idea you have expressed in your first post - namely that it is ridiculous when Christmas trees are redesignated holiday trees. It doesn't appear that you actually want to discuss that issue with me. Instead you seem to assume that there is nothing to discuss and that your position is self-evident.
I have heard it said several times that Anglo-saxon is not banned anywhere on these boards. That is the way I chose to express myself. If you don't like it, in what way did you think you were engaging in a discussion rather than a rant?
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
When I was young, people would never start this thread till the Advent season was over.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Walk around any British town, the tree decorations are no longer called Christmas trees.
Which is pretty darn silly so long as most people think the reason the tree is there is because of Christmas.
And if the tree gets put up at a certain time and gets taken down at a certain time, in line with previous traditions... look, if it walks like a duck, and swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's still a duck even if a bureaucrat thinks it better to label it as "unspecified avian".
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Third, the public space is moving away from calling the festival time Christmas, and so it should.
Festival? What festival?
Oh wait. Don't tell me. The name of it is right on the tip of my tongue...
EDIT: If you want to call it 'December', or 'the end of the year', then go right ahead. But if you start describing something as a 'festival' you're begging the question. And last time I looked, New Year's Eve parties - the other 'festive' thing round about then - weren't particularly associated with trees, were they? The whole reason we have 'Christmas' trees and 'New Year's Eve' fireworks is because we understand that each of these things is associated with one festive occasion and not the other.
[ 29. November 2012, 12:51: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Festival? What festival?
Oh wait. Don't tell me. The name of it is right on the tip of my tongue...
Festival is one of those strange words which can be singular or plural. Hence festival time refers to the time of festivals: Christmas, Yule, Hanukkah, Diwali and those other religious festivals of November-January.
quote:
EDIT: If you want to call it 'December', or 'the end of the year', then go right ahead. But if you start describing something as a 'festival' you're begging the question. And last time I looked, New Year's Eve parties - the other 'festive' thing round about then - weren't particularly associated with trees, were they? The whole reason we have 'Christmas' trees and 'New Year's Eve' fireworks is because we understand that each of these things is associated with one festive occasion and not the other.
See above. All the things you have mentioned are habits. Other religions and cultures use fireworks, lights and trees you know.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And if the tree gets put up at a certain time and gets taken down at a certain time, in line with previous traditions... look, if it walks like a duck, and swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's still a duck even if a bureaucrat thinks it better to label it as "unspecified avian".
So you know for a fact that these decorations are specifically Christian rather than non-religious to appeal to all the other religious festivals that are about, do you.
No you don't.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Other religions and cultures use fireworks, lights and trees you know.
Trees being the relevant one, who else uses them? For Yule, presumably.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
So you know for a fact that these decorations are specifically Christian rather than non-religious to appeal to all the other religious festivals that are about, do you.
Can we please unpack this TRULY startling statement?
How can something that is "non-religious" appeal to "all the other religious" festivals?
You cannot have it both ways. Either it is a religious object or it isn't. If it is a non-religious object, that doesn't mean it appeals to all religions. It means it has no connection to any of them.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Trees being the relevant one, who else uses them? For Yule, presumably.
Well, let's see what googling tells us. Diwali lights in trees and this on the Hannukah bush and the Ramadan tree.
Bloody other religions, nicking our tree ideas (that we previous nicked from other religions), eh? Whatever next?
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You cannot have it both ways. Either it is a religious object or it isn't. If it is a non-religious object, that doesn't mean it appeals to all religions. It means it has no connection to any of them.
A tree with random stars and sparkles (and just about anything unrelated to the nativity) decorations and lights is not specific to Christianity. Sorry to break it to you - other religions see Christmas trees as trees with pretty lights in them.
[ 29. November 2012, 13:12: Message edited by: the long ranger ]
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Trees being the relevant one, who else uses them? For Yule, presumably.
Well, let's see what googling tells us. Diwali lights in trees and this on the Hannukah bush and the Ramadan tree.
Right, thank you.
Although the question was more about putting UP trees, not about using trees as convenient spots to put things (which of course they are, it's not rocket science).
And there's no way in hell anyone could mistake your Ramadan tree for a Christmas tree.
But it was your Hannukah link that was superb. It says "Specifically, you won't find a Hanukkah bush in halacha because as far as I know it is a relatively recent American invention."
And THEN it says:
quote:
But even if you feel the tree is not religious, the idea of a Hanukkah bush is purely a copy of a Christmas tree. Jewish law aside, I find the idea of a Hanukkah bush distasteful for that very reason. Hanukkah is not a celebration of the winter holiday season nor is it the Jewish Christmas. By the way, I like Christmas -- but I understand it is not my holiday.
quote:
Bloody other religions, nicking our tree ideas (that we previous nicked from other religions), eh? Whatever next?
You know, before you attempt to be ironic, you really ought to check that the links you provide don't completely undercut the irony by using the exact same ideas literally.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Right, thank you.
Although the question was more about putting UP trees, not about using trees as convenient spots to put things (which of course they are, it's not rocket science).
And there's no way in hell anyone could mistake your Ramadan tree for a Christmas tree.
Really. And pray, how are you suddenly an expert on Ramadan trees?
quote:
But it was your Hannukah link that was superb. It says "Specifically, you won't find a Hanukkah bush in halacha because as far as I know it is a relatively recent American invention."
Christmas Trees were made popular by the Germans in the 19 century. What's your point - their tradition is slightly newer than ours..?
quote:
quote:
But even if you feel the tree is not religious, the idea of a Hanukkah bush is purely a copy of a Christmas tree. Jewish law aside, I find the idea of a Hanukkah bush distasteful for that very reason. Hanukkah is not a celebration of the winter holiday season nor is it the Jewish Christmas. By the way, I like Christmas -- but I understand it is not my holiday.
quote:
Bloody other religions, nicking our tree ideas (that we previous nicked from other religions), eh? Whatever next?
You know, before you attempt to be ironic, you really ought to check that the links you provide don't completely undercut the irony by using the exact same ideas literally. [/QB]
Jewish people put up trees and decorate than for Hanukah. Some Jewish commentators don't like it. So? I dare say that some Christians dislike the Christmas tree tradition.
And I wasn't being ironic as it happens. That is my view on your opinion: complaining about other religions using your tradition that your sect previously dug up in the 19 century from a third ancient religion.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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